Fw: 4H concerns (to state office)
Have a Nice Day!
This is the email I sent to the state office. this explains some of what is going on here. I'd love anymore feedback.
Thanks,
Kristen
I have some concerns about the 4H program in our area.
A few times we have tried to get involved with 4H, but its been nearly impossible, starting with sign ups.
When I called to enroll, I was told there was an informational meeting held once a year and I would need to attend that.
Everyone who attends the meeting for the community club then gets to sign up for the projects they like. It is first come first serve, and many of the projects are limited in space. (The county agent lets the project leaders limit space if they feel they need to, and I do understand that).
This means that everyone RUSHES to the sign up table they are interested in, and if they don't get there in time, they can't do that project.
It also means that kids with other committments on the night of the meeting are pretty much out of luck.
We gave up on the whole thing until just now. I have been talking to others in other states who love 4H and it seems things are different for them, so I called our county extension office to see if I'm missing something or if things are really that different.
Here are some examples:
The national website says that a person can enroll any time of year. But in our county, there is a specific time frame in which a child can enroll. When enrollment is closed, the child must wait until the following year. This enrollment period is in place for all the clubs in our county. I asked why a child couldn't just "catch up" and I was told that wouldn't work because of show deadlines, "and enrollment is closed for this year anyway". (It was closed May 1st).
I was told that I could start my own club, and I wouldn't have to have a closed enrollment, but it sounded like she discourages that because of "all the work it would be" for me. And she said that even if took enrollments after enrollment was "closed" in the rest of the county, the kids might not get on the county rolls until the FOLLOWING YEAR! I assume that means they would not be able to do *any* shows, etc. for this year.
I asked about how our family might do our own project. I was told this is discouraged because the county agent feels that it defeats the purpose of 4H and meeting with other people. She made it clear that this was her personal philosophy.
I asked about joining an existing club and *then* doing our own project, if there weren't any offered by the club that we were currently interested in. This is *also* discouraged and for the same reason though she said if the project were "opened up" to everyone else, and only my child "signed up" then it might be possible but would not be ideal.
I asked if families were required to attend meetings (we live in a rural area). She said "yes". And then she clarified and said that attendance at meetings was "expected" (because of judging, etc).
But as I understand it there are many projects that don't involve "shows", etc. but are simply about experiential learning. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
I asked if there were any homeschool groups (we homeschool). But there are none in our county which is *very* surprising in this county as we have one of the largest homeschool populations in the state.
I might add that nobody ever told me there were such a thing as "project clubs". I had no idea there was such a thing, or what the difference was between that and a community club. The information wasn't even offered to me until I *asked* and then I only knew to ask after someone in another state described it to me.
This is disappointing because I have talked to the extension office at least 4 or 5 different times and had I known about that, I might have started a club before I got involved with being a leader in another organization.
4H has a great deal to offer, much more than I thought because the information I was given was so sketchy and enrollment is so difficult. My kids have many interests they'd like to pursue, but there seem to be constant obstacles in our way.
The county agent sets up the 4H here to make it easier on the volunteers, and I do understand that. I'm a volunteer in another organization. But it seems as though it is run in such a way as to make it out of reach for a lot of kids (and other parent volunteers) who might otherwise be interested in being involved.
Can you tell me if this is the norm across the state or is this limited to our county?
Thanks,
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks,
Kristen
I have some concerns about the 4H program in our area.
A few times we have tried to get involved with 4H, but its been nearly impossible, starting with sign ups.
When I called to enroll, I was told there was an informational meeting held once a year and I would need to attend that.
Everyone who attends the meeting for the community club then gets to sign up for the projects they like. It is first come first serve, and many of the projects are limited in space. (The county agent lets the project leaders limit space if they feel they need to, and I do understand that).
This means that everyone RUSHES to the sign up table they are interested in, and if they don't get there in time, they can't do that project.
It also means that kids with other committments on the night of the meeting are pretty much out of luck.
We gave up on the whole thing until just now. I have been talking to others in other states who love 4H and it seems things are different for them, so I called our county extension office to see if I'm missing something or if things are really that different.
Here are some examples:
The national website says that a person can enroll any time of year. But in our county, there is a specific time frame in which a child can enroll. When enrollment is closed, the child must wait until the following year. This enrollment period is in place for all the clubs in our county. I asked why a child couldn't just "catch up" and I was told that wouldn't work because of show deadlines, "and enrollment is closed for this year anyway". (It was closed May 1st).
I was told that I could start my own club, and I wouldn't have to have a closed enrollment, but it sounded like she discourages that because of "all the work it would be" for me. And she said that even if took enrollments after enrollment was "closed" in the rest of the county, the kids might not get on the county rolls until the FOLLOWING YEAR! I assume that means they would not be able to do *any* shows, etc. for this year.
I asked about how our family might do our own project. I was told this is discouraged because the county agent feels that it defeats the purpose of 4H and meeting with other people. She made it clear that this was her personal philosophy.
I asked about joining an existing club and *then* doing our own project, if there weren't any offered by the club that we were currently interested in. This is *also* discouraged and for the same reason though she said if the project were "opened up" to everyone else, and only my child "signed up" then it might be possible but would not be ideal.
I asked if families were required to attend meetings (we live in a rural area). She said "yes". And then she clarified and said that attendance at meetings was "expected" (because of judging, etc).
But as I understand it there are many projects that don't involve "shows", etc. but are simply about experiential learning. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
I asked if there were any homeschool groups (we homeschool). But there are none in our county which is *very* surprising in this county as we have one of the largest homeschool populations in the state.
I might add that nobody ever told me there were such a thing as "project clubs". I had no idea there was such a thing, or what the difference was between that and a community club. The information wasn't even offered to me until I *asked* and then I only knew to ask after someone in another state described it to me.
This is disappointing because I have talked to the extension office at least 4 or 5 different times and had I known about that, I might have started a club before I got involved with being a leader in another organization.
4H has a great deal to offer, much more than I thought because the information I was given was so sketchy and enrollment is so difficult. My kids have many interests they'd like to pursue, but there seem to be constant obstacles in our way.
The county agent sets up the 4H here to make it easier on the volunteers, and I do understand that. I'm a volunteer in another organization. But it seems as though it is run in such a way as to make it out of reach for a lot of kids (and other parent volunteers) who might otherwise be interested in being involved.
Can you tell me if this is the norm across the state or is this limited to our county?
Thanks,
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
By the way....as I questioned the county agent today, she became more agitated and annoyed with me for asking all these questions, and pointing out that things are different other places.
That was somewhat telling to me.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That was somewhat telling to me.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/6/04 10:23:43 AM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< I asked about how our family might do our own project. I was told this is
discouraged because the county agent feels that it defeats the purpose of 4H
and meeting with other people. She made it clear that this was her personal
philosophy. >>
Why join 4H just to do a family project?
I don't understand it at all.
Individuals can enter things at county fairs and state fairs.
4-H is like a grange hall. It was created for fellowship and advancement and
shared information for people living their real lives, helping each other (or
getting state/county help) for keeping a home and farm working efficiently
and safely and with modern information. Like a grange hall, part of the purpose
is knowing the neighbors.
-=I asked if families were required to attend meetings (we live in a rural
area). She said "yes". And then she clarified and said that attendance at
meetings was "expected" (because of judging, etc). -=-
If you didn't go to the meetings, why would you want to be in the club?
-=-But as I understand it there are many projects that don't involve "shows",
etc. but are simply about experiential learning. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
-=-
Experiential learning doesn't need a club.
-=-But it seems as though it is run in such a way as to make it out of reach
for a lot of kids (and other parent volunteers) who might otherwise be
interested in being involved.-=-
Having been involved for years in the SCA, I know that nobody needs a club to
learn about the Middle Ages. If they want the club, they need to go where
the club meets, or create their own groups according to the guidelines the club
has, or find a different club.
It's run in such a way as to make it IN readch for those who are sufficiently
interested in being involved. Nothing can be everything for everybody.
I read an article which was in part criticizing video game programmers for
only giving limited choices in games. A game has limitations; that's what
makes it a game and not real life. A club isn't everybody, that's what makes it a
club. Real life is everybody.
Sandra
<< I asked about how our family might do our own project. I was told this is
discouraged because the county agent feels that it defeats the purpose of 4H
and meeting with other people. She made it clear that this was her personal
philosophy. >>
Why join 4H just to do a family project?
I don't understand it at all.
Individuals can enter things at county fairs and state fairs.
4-H is like a grange hall. It was created for fellowship and advancement and
shared information for people living their real lives, helping each other (or
getting state/county help) for keeping a home and farm working efficiently
and safely and with modern information. Like a grange hall, part of the purpose
is knowing the neighbors.
-=I asked if families were required to attend meetings (we live in a rural
area). She said "yes". And then she clarified and said that attendance at
meetings was "expected" (because of judging, etc). -=-
If you didn't go to the meetings, why would you want to be in the club?
-=-But as I understand it there are many projects that don't involve "shows",
etc. but are simply about experiential learning. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
-=-
Experiential learning doesn't need a club.
-=-But it seems as though it is run in such a way as to make it out of reach
for a lot of kids (and other parent volunteers) who might otherwise be
interested in being involved.-=-
Having been involved for years in the SCA, I know that nobody needs a club to
learn about the Middle Ages. If they want the club, they need to go where
the club meets, or create their own groups according to the guidelines the club
has, or find a different club.
It's run in such a way as to make it IN readch for those who are sufficiently
interested in being involved. Nothing can be everything for everybody.
I read an article which was in part criticizing video game programmers for
only giving limited choices in games. A game has limitations; that's what
makes it a game and not real life. A club isn't everybody, that's what makes it a
club. Real life is everybody.
Sandra
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
games can ignore, which is what makes it real life, more like a game the more we
eliminate its limitations. And real life never includes everybody. Real life
is the clubs we're in and clubs we're not. . .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I read an article which was in part criticizing video game programmers forLOL - I think of it in reverse! Real life has limitations that only
> only giving limited choices in games. A game has limitations; that's what
> makes it a game and not real life. A club isn't everybody, that's what
> makes it a
> club. Real life is everybody.
>
games can ignore, which is what makes it real life, more like a game the more we
eliminate its limitations. And real life never includes everybody. Real life
is the clubs we're in and clubs we're not. . .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<<Why join 4H just to do a family project?
divisions of many fairs, you have to enter through 4-H or FFA (Future
Farmers of America).
Also, the 4-H meetings are often just business type meetings (particularly
in community clubs) with the fun happening at the project meetings (each
project has their own meetings to do their projects).
My kids do dairy goats through 4-H. They are the only kids in the county
that do them. We learned it all on our own with zero help from the
extention office, found our own shows, etc.. The kids could enter shows
against other kids by being 4-H members. If they weren't, they would only
be competing against professional breeders (we do those shows too now.)
But the kids also do lots of group projects and we are members of 3
different clubs in our county, one community club where the kids do lots of
things, and 2 project clubs (Goat club--meat goats and the shooting
club--skeet).
Julie S.
>At least in Texas ( I don't know about other places), to enter in the youth
> I don't understand it at all.
>
> Individuals can enter things at county fairs and state fairs.>>>>>
divisions of many fairs, you have to enter through 4-H or FFA (Future
Farmers of America).
Also, the 4-H meetings are often just business type meetings (particularly
in community clubs) with the fun happening at the project meetings (each
project has their own meetings to do their projects).
My kids do dairy goats through 4-H. They are the only kids in the county
that do them. We learned it all on our own with zero help from the
extention office, found our own shows, etc.. The kids could enter shows
against other kids by being 4-H members. If they weren't, they would only
be competing against professional breeders (we do those shows too now.)
But the kids also do lots of group projects and we are members of 3
different clubs in our county, one community club where the kids do lots of
things, and 2 project clubs (Goat club--meat goats and the shooting
club--skeet).
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Fw: 4H concerns (to state office)
>
> In a message dated 5/6/04 10:23:43 AM, litlrooh@... writes:
>
> << I asked about how our family might do our own project. I was told this
is
> discouraged because the county agent feels that it defeats the purpose of
4H
> and meeting with other people. She made it clear that this was her
personal
> philosophy. >>
>
> Why join 4H just to do a family project?
>
> I don't understand it at all.
>
> Individuals can enter things at county fairs and state fairs.
>
> 4-H is like a grange hall. It was created for fellowship and advancement
and
> shared information for people living their real lives, helping each other
(or
> getting state/county help) for keeping a home and farm working efficiently
> and safely and with modern information. Like a grange hall, part of the
purpose
> is knowing the neighbors.
>
> -=I asked if families were required to attend meetings (we live in a rural
> area). She said "yes". And then she clarified and said that attendance
at
> meetings was "expected" (because of judging, etc). -=-
>
> If you didn't go to the meetings, why would you want to be in the club?
>
> -=-But as I understand it there are many projects that don't involve
"shows",
> etc. but are simply about experiential learning. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
> -=-
>
> Experiential learning doesn't need a club.
>
> -=-But it seems as though it is run in such a way as to make it out of
reach
> for a lot of kids (and other parent volunteers) who might otherwise be
> interested in being involved.-=-
>
> Having been involved for years in the SCA, I know that nobody needs a club
to
> learn about the Middle Ages. If they want the club, they need to go where
> the club meets, or create their own groups according to the guidelines the
club
> has, or find a different club.
>
> It's run in such a way as to make it IN readch for those who are
sufficiently
> interested in being involved. Nothing can be everything for everybody.
>
> I read an article which was in part criticizing video game programmers for
> only giving limited choices in games. A game has limitations; that's
what
> makes it a game and not real life. A club isn't everybody, that's what
makes it a
> club. Real life is everybody.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/6/04 12:32:43 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< > Individuals can enter things at county fairs and state fairs.>>>>>
At least in Texas ( I don't know about other places), to enter in the youth
divisions of many fairs, you have to enter through 4-H or FFA (Future
Farmers of America). >>
Can they enter in the general then?
I know here there are arts and hobby things that people enter, even Lego
scenarios and war-game scenarios.
Maybe kids couldn't enter a goat or a sheep, but arts and crafts??
Sandra
<< > Individuals can enter things at county fairs and state fairs.>>>>>
At least in Texas ( I don't know about other places), to enter in the youth
divisions of many fairs, you have to enter through 4-H or FFA (Future
Farmers of America). >>
Can they enter in the general then?
I know here there are arts and hobby things that people enter, even Lego
scenarios and war-game scenarios.
Maybe kids couldn't enter a goat or a sheep, but arts and crafts??
Sandra
Cornerstone Community Farm
On Thursday 06 May 2004 02:04 pm, SandraDodd@... wrote:
Open class is for non-4H kids and adults.
Open class has cows, photography, etc, but the youth fair has a much
broader variety of classes to enter in.
My daughter has been in 4-H in the past and enjoys it.
Last summer she was in open class competing against adults in
photography. Its her first experience at photography, so I warned her
she would have heady competition...but winning a ribbon is NOT the
goal, rather the experience and fun trying to compose a nice photo!
> can they enter in the general then?Depends on the county fair...the local fair board sets the rules.
>
> I know here there are arts and hobby things that people enter, even
> Lego scenarios and war-game scenarios.
>
> Maybe kids couldn't enter a goat or a sheep, but arts and crafts??
Open class is for non-4H kids and adults.
Open class has cows, photography, etc, but the youth fair has a much
broader variety of classes to enter in.
My daughter has been in 4-H in the past and enjoys it.
Last summer she was in open class competing against adults in
photography. Its her first experience at photography, so I warned her
she would have heady competition...but winning a ribbon is NOT the
goal, rather the experience and fun trying to compose a nice photo!
Have a Nice Day!
In a message dated 5/6/04 10:23:43 AM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< I asked about how our family might do our own project. I was told this is
discouraged because the county agent feels that it defeats the purpose of 4H
and meeting with other people. She made it clear that this was her personal
philosophy. >>
Sandra: Why join 4H just to do a family project?
Me: I'm not really interested in doing just a family project. When I asked about it, I was just gathering information and clarifying the information that others on this list gave me. What irked me was that she wasn't giving me *all* of the information. She only gave me what *she* was comfortable with because she (apparently?) doesn't agree with everything 4H promotes.
If the club isn't offering something we are interested in at the time, then it would be nice to be able to start our own project for that time period and add it to the club's repertoire. If thats not part of the overall 4H philosophy, thats fine with me. But if it *is* part of the overall philosophy, then she needs to tell me that, even if she doesn't agree with it. If its a county decision, then she needs to also be clear about that so that we can look at other counties. She did give me a neighboring county contact, but only because I specifically asked for it, not because she was trying to get us hooked up.
Sandra: Individuals can enter things at county fairs and state fairs.
Me: Yes, but we aren't really interested in the fairs. We want to meet other people. I can't do that in our local 4H because "enrollment is closed" until next March and the community clubs here only run from June to August.
In neighboring counties, the clubs run all year long and have open enrollment which is why we are enrolling there.
Sandra: Like a grange hall, part of the purpose
is knowing the neighbors.
Me: Well my first preference would be to enroll in a club more local to us. However, our "neighbor" clubs are "closed" until next March. I think that is a problem when 4H is supposed to be for anyone interested at any time of year.
-=I asked if families were required to attend meetings (we live in a rural
area). She said "yes". And then she clarified and said that attendance at
meetings was "expected" (because of judging, etc). -=-
Sandra: If you didn't go to the meetings, why would you want to be in the club?
Me: I *do* want to attend meetings. But since we aren't really interested in competition, I don't want it to be held against us if for some reason we *can't* make all the meetings.
There are projects that have some stringent rules, and they have those rules for good reasons. I don't have a problem with that. But there are plenty of other projects that are not competition based.
Sandra: Experiential learning doesn't need a club.
Me: No, it doesn't. But since our goal was to meet other people with similar interests, it would probably be fun and enriching to do it in a club. And again, 4H has resources that aren't available to "individuals".
-=-But it seems as though it is run in such a way as to make it out of reach
for a lot of kids (and other parent volunteers) who might otherwise be
interested in being involved.-=-
Sandra: Having been involved for years in the SCA, I know that nobody needs a club to
learn about the Middle Ages. If they want the club, they need to go where
the club meets, or create their own groups according to the guidelines the club
has, or find a different club.
Me: The difference is that the SCA makes that clear in the materials.
What I have a problem with is that the national 4H organization and the state organization promote lots of options for families interested in 4H, but our county agent isn't "comfortable" with some of these options, and so doesn't even offer them unless pressed, and then strongly discourages them. (Her exact words were, "I'm not comfortable with that")
I don't agree with that kind of interference. I heard from the State office late this afternoon, and they agree with me and they will be discussing these issues with the county agent to see if they can bring her up to speed on the current philosophies of 4H. In fact, the state coordinator mentioned right off the bat that the entire state is to have "open enrollment" and that my kids can enroll *any* time. She also said there is a parent/child project called "You Two" that we can do as an intro to 4H for our first year. Again, the county agent didn't even *mention* that even after all of my questions about us working on our own.
In the meantime, we've found another group in another county. I've corresponded with the leader and she is WONDERFUL!!! She and I have so much in common. She only lives 20 minutes from me. Her club is kid run, and very flexible. I think we've found our match.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<< I asked about how our family might do our own project. I was told this is
discouraged because the county agent feels that it defeats the purpose of 4H
and meeting with other people. She made it clear that this was her personal
philosophy. >>
Sandra: Why join 4H just to do a family project?
Me: I'm not really interested in doing just a family project. When I asked about it, I was just gathering information and clarifying the information that others on this list gave me. What irked me was that she wasn't giving me *all* of the information. She only gave me what *she* was comfortable with because she (apparently?) doesn't agree with everything 4H promotes.
If the club isn't offering something we are interested in at the time, then it would be nice to be able to start our own project for that time period and add it to the club's repertoire. If thats not part of the overall 4H philosophy, thats fine with me. But if it *is* part of the overall philosophy, then she needs to tell me that, even if she doesn't agree with it. If its a county decision, then she needs to also be clear about that so that we can look at other counties. She did give me a neighboring county contact, but only because I specifically asked for it, not because she was trying to get us hooked up.
Sandra: Individuals can enter things at county fairs and state fairs.
Me: Yes, but we aren't really interested in the fairs. We want to meet other people. I can't do that in our local 4H because "enrollment is closed" until next March and the community clubs here only run from June to August.
In neighboring counties, the clubs run all year long and have open enrollment which is why we are enrolling there.
Sandra: Like a grange hall, part of the purpose
is knowing the neighbors.
Me: Well my first preference would be to enroll in a club more local to us. However, our "neighbor" clubs are "closed" until next March. I think that is a problem when 4H is supposed to be for anyone interested at any time of year.
-=I asked if families were required to attend meetings (we live in a rural
area). She said "yes". And then she clarified and said that attendance at
meetings was "expected" (because of judging, etc). -=-
Sandra: If you didn't go to the meetings, why would you want to be in the club?
Me: I *do* want to attend meetings. But since we aren't really interested in competition, I don't want it to be held against us if for some reason we *can't* make all the meetings.
There are projects that have some stringent rules, and they have those rules for good reasons. I don't have a problem with that. But there are plenty of other projects that are not competition based.
Sandra: Experiential learning doesn't need a club.
Me: No, it doesn't. But since our goal was to meet other people with similar interests, it would probably be fun and enriching to do it in a club. And again, 4H has resources that aren't available to "individuals".
-=-But it seems as though it is run in such a way as to make it out of reach
for a lot of kids (and other parent volunteers) who might otherwise be
interested in being involved.-=-
Sandra: Having been involved for years in the SCA, I know that nobody needs a club to
learn about the Middle Ages. If they want the club, they need to go where
the club meets, or create their own groups according to the guidelines the club
has, or find a different club.
Me: The difference is that the SCA makes that clear in the materials.
What I have a problem with is that the national 4H organization and the state organization promote lots of options for families interested in 4H, but our county agent isn't "comfortable" with some of these options, and so doesn't even offer them unless pressed, and then strongly discourages them. (Her exact words were, "I'm not comfortable with that")
I don't agree with that kind of interference. I heard from the State office late this afternoon, and they agree with me and they will be discussing these issues with the county agent to see if they can bring her up to speed on the current philosophies of 4H. In fact, the state coordinator mentioned right off the bat that the entire state is to have "open enrollment" and that my kids can enroll *any* time. She also said there is a parent/child project called "You Two" that we can do as an intro to 4H for our first year. Again, the county agent didn't even *mention* that even after all of my questions about us working on our own.
In the meantime, we've found another group in another county. I've corresponded with the leader and she is WONDERFUL!!! She and I have so much in common. She only lives 20 minutes from me. Her club is kid run, and very flexible. I think we've found our match.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On May 6, 2004, at 12:04 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
categories, but they don't compete against each other - there is a
"Youth Building" and a "4H Building" that are two separate things. 4H
and FFA have their own special competitions and some of those happen
during the fair.
For example, there is a 4H horse show during our county fair. It is
only open to 4H horse project members, not to just any kid who rides a
horse.
We don't sign up kids in our county after the beginning of December. I
don't see what is wrong with having an enrollment period and then
closing enrollment after that.
Information about 4H is on the various websites - national, state,
county and club levels. There is no need to ever participate in ANY
competition, by the way, many kids in our club just enjoy the project
experiences for their own sakes and that's perfectly fine with
everybody. But if they do decide to compete, the scoring is very often
on what they call the "Danish system" which means that they don't
compete against each other, but have a score sheet and earn points for
specific things. Every entry can score 100 percent of the points if
they're all that good. And the score sheets always have places for the
judges to write comments and, having recently gone through some judge
training myself, I can tell you that the judges are encouraged to say a
lot about what they like and then give a suggestion or two about what
improvements could be made. I know, from experience, that some judges
aren't so great - but, as an organization, I think they have a great
approach.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Can they enter in the general then?The county fairs, here, have both general and 4H/FFA entries in many
>
> I know here there are arts and hobby things that people enter, even
> Lego
> scenarios and war-game scenarios.
>
> Maybe kids couldn't enter a goat or a sheep, but arts and crafts??
>
categories, but they don't compete against each other - there is a
"Youth Building" and a "4H Building" that are two separate things. 4H
and FFA have their own special competitions and some of those happen
during the fair.
For example, there is a 4H horse show during our county fair. It is
only open to 4H horse project members, not to just any kid who rides a
horse.
We don't sign up kids in our county after the beginning of December. I
don't see what is wrong with having an enrollment period and then
closing enrollment after that.
Information about 4H is on the various websites - national, state,
county and club levels. There is no need to ever participate in ANY
competition, by the way, many kids in our club just enjoy the project
experiences for their own sakes and that's perfectly fine with
everybody. But if they do decide to compete, the scoring is very often
on what they call the "Danish system" which means that they don't
compete against each other, but have a score sheet and earn points for
specific things. Every entry can score 100 percent of the points if
they're all that good. And the score sheets always have places for the
judges to write comments and, having recently gone through some judge
training myself, I can tell you that the judges are encouraged to say a
lot about what they like and then give a suggestion or two about what
improvements could be made. I know, from experience, that some judges
aren't so great - but, as an organization, I think they have a great
approach.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Have a Nice Day!
****We don't sign up kids in our county after the beginning of December. I
don't see what is wrong with having an enrollment period and then
closing enrollment after that******
I really wouldn't have a problem with that except for two things:
1. Our state is "open enrollment", and I was willing to start a club with open enrollment but the county agent doesn't really want to do that, because she says it would be too much work for *me*.
2. Her attitude in general ("I'm not comfortable with that, therefore its discouraged") seems to suggest that she is running things based on her own personal philosophies, not the overall philosophy of the organization she is supposed to represent.
If she was more closely representing 4H philosophy in everything else, I wouldn't be so irked by the enrollment policy. I'm sure it does make things easier. But it really limits the opportunities for interested kids in this county too.
Kristen
don't see what is wrong with having an enrollment period and then
closing enrollment after that******
I really wouldn't have a problem with that except for two things:
1. Our state is "open enrollment", and I was willing to start a club with open enrollment but the county agent doesn't really want to do that, because she says it would be too much work for *me*.
2. Her attitude in general ("I'm not comfortable with that, therefore its discouraged") seems to suggest that she is running things based on her own personal philosophies, not the overall philosophy of the organization she is supposed to represent.
If she was more closely representing 4H philosophy in everything else, I wouldn't be so irked by the enrollment policy. I'm sure it does make things easier. But it really limits the opportunities for interested kids in this county too.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: pam sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Fw: 4H concerns (to state office)
On May 6, 2004, at 12:04 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> Can they enter in the general then?
>
> I know here there are arts and hobby things that people enter, even
> Lego
> scenarios and war-game scenarios.
>
> Maybe kids couldn't enter a goat or a sheep, but arts and crafts??
>
The county fairs, here, have both general and 4H/FFA entries in many
categories, but they don't compete against each other - there is a
"Youth Building" and a "4H Building" that are two separate things. 4H
and FFA have their own special competitions and some of those happen
during the fair.
For example, there is a 4H horse show during our county fair. It is
only open to 4H horse project members, not to just any kid who rides a
horse.
We don't sign up kids in our county after the beginning of December. I
don't see what is wrong with having an enrollment period and then
closing enrollment after that.
Information about 4H is on the various websites - national, state,
county and club levels. There is no need to ever participate in ANY
competition, by the way, many kids in our club just enjoy the project
experiences for their own sakes and that's perfectly fine with
everybody. But if they do decide to compete, the scoring is very often
on what they call the "Danish system" which means that they don't
compete against each other, but have a score sheet and earn points for
specific things. Every entry can score 100 percent of the points if
they're all that good. And the score sheets always have places for the
judges to write comments and, having recently gone through some judge
training myself, I can tell you that the judges are encouraged to say a
lot about what they like and then give a suggestion or two about what
improvements could be made. I know, from experience, that some judges
aren't so great - but, as an organization, I think they have a great
approach.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
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J. Stauffer
<<<Maybe kids couldn't enter a goat or a sheep, but arts and crafts??>>>>
Again ,it probably depends on the fair but the ones around here. Anybody
can enter the "open" classes but you will be competing against
professionals. Depending on the kid, that can be great or disheartening.
Julie S.
Again ,it probably depends on the fair but the ones around here. Anybody
can enter the "open" classes but you will be competing against
professionals. Depending on the kid, that can be great or disheartening.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Fw: 4H concerns (to state office)
>
> In a message dated 5/6/04 12:32:43 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
>
> << > Individuals can enter things at county fairs and state fairs.>>>>>
>
>
> At least in Texas ( I don't know about other places), to enter in the
youth
>
> divisions of many fairs, you have to enter through 4-H or FFA (Future
>
> Farmers of America). >>
>
> Can they enter in the general then?
>
> I know here there are arts and hobby things that people enter, even Lego
> scenarios and war-game scenarios.
>
> Maybe kids couldn't enter a goat or a sheep, but arts and crafts??
>
> Sandra
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>