dinalauzon

Most of what I have read about unschooling says that it is a very
casual approach in the sense that you do what the kids are
interested in at the moment. I, too, have a very casual approach
because, well, *life* just gets in the way of our *schooling* most
of the time.LOL BUT--- I have noticed that my kids handle life much
better when they have some sort of *schedule*. They seem to get
stressed out (i.e. sibling fighting, bad attitudes, short tempers
etc.) when I leave them to their own devices and do not
impose "schoolwork" on them. Does anyone else's kids do this? As
far as them going off and delving into subjects all by themselves,
NO WAY! They would rather just play! And by playing I don't mean
they are re-creating a time period in history or some other
impressively educational experience. Just playing. You know, ride
a bike, run around, pretending they are animals of some sort or
whatever. Average, typical kid sort of playing. Not to mentinon my
son would sit and play Playstation for hours at a time if I didn't
limit it. I guess I am wandering all over the place with this post
but I would like to know about how structure can fit into the
unschooling philosophy. And can it?
Am I missing something about the unschooling philosophy? Sometimes
I feel like I really don't "get it" yet.
Someone enlighten me, please!

Mary

From: "dinalauzon" <dlauzon32@...>

<<They seem to get stressed out (i.e. sibling fighting, bad attitudes, short
tempers
etc.) when I leave them to their own devices and do not
impose "schoolwork" on them. Does anyone else's kids do this?>>


No not my kids. They really aren't into structure much. They prefer to have
free reign and go at their own pace, no matter what that is. The most
structured thing would be playdates on certain days of the week. We usually
have a park day every Tues. which is never timed as far as when we get there
or how long we stay. Usually Thurs. are craft days with a few other families
which involves a craft of maybe 20 minutes and then free play time for a
couple hours. Every Fri. is homeschooling sports camp for 3 hours. Their
Fridays they won't miss. The other two are free to take it or leave it
depending on what is going on with us and who wants to go or not.



<<As far as them going off and delving into subjects all by themselves,
NO WAY! They would rather just play! And by playing I don't mean
they are re-creating a time period in history or some other
impressively educational experience. Just playing. You know, ride
a bike, run around, pretending they are animals of some sort or
whatever. Average, typical kid sort of playing. Not to mentinon my
son would sit and play Playstation for hours at a time if I didn't
limit it.>>


My 3 youngest that unschool do play all day. And I do mean play!!! They are
9,8 and 3. They watch tv, play games, play video games, play outside, swim,
draw, create, read, build, role play, etc. That IS their play and they do it
whenever they want. They learn so much every day. They are always coming up
with things that sometimes I don't even know where they got them from.
They're kids and the world is theirs to learn whatever interests them. And
right now if it looks like "just playing" all day, that's fine with me. Of
course with my kids, I don't see it as "just playing," I see learning all
the time. If I were looking for learning in schoolish terms, I would
probably not see much at all.



<<I guess I am wandering all over the place with this post
but I would like to know about how structure can fit into the
unschooling philosophy. And can it?
Am I missing something about the unschooling philosophy? Sometimes
I feel like I really don't "get it" yet.>>


I think structure can fit in well with unschooling as long as the structure
comes from the child and not the parent. I know of a few unschooled kids
that make their own schedules, starting and stopping at their leisure. It's
when it's imposed and forced that it stops being a part of unschooling for
me.

As far as getting it, I think you are looking in terms of learning from
school standards. That's something that a lot of people have a hard time
giving up and seeing any other way.

Read the boards, stay here and read. Read the archives and Sandra's sites.
Try to rid yourself of what learning is in school terms. You will see a
whole new way of looking at things!


Mary B

pam sorooshian

On May 5, 2004, at 12:07 AM, Mary wrote:

> <<They seem to get stressed out (i.e. sibling fighting, bad attitudes,
> short
> tempers
> etc.) when I leave them to their own devices and do not
> impose "schoolwork" on them. Does anyone else's kids do this?>>

I'm wondering if maybe your kids haven't had enough experience being
"in charge" of their own time and they feel at loose ends? Maybe you
can keep them a bit more busy with some fun activities or going out to
fun places and ease them into having more "free" time.

pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Pam Hartley

>They seem to get
> stressed out (i.e. sibling fighting, bad attitudes, short tempers
> etc.) when I leave them to their own devices and do not
> impose "schoolwork" on them.

There are more choices than "leave them to their own devices" and "impose
'schoolwork' on them". Unschooling generally falls into those other choices.
So you might be involved in cooking with them and talking to them and
watching movies with them and reading books to them and with them and
playing board games and video games with them and being nearby so that when
they are on their own and one or more of them becomes irritated with the
company of their siblings you can defuse before the bomb goes off, or help
patch up a problem that does occur.

We sometimes have a daily schedule of some sort to meet (like when we have
outside appointments or tv shows that are important to someone) but mostly
not.

> far as them going off and delving into subjects all by themselves,
> NO WAY! They would rather just play!

That's because they are more advanced unschoolers than you are. :) Playing
IS their work, and their learning. And I don't mean:

> they are re-creating a time period in history or some other
> impressively educational experience.

I mean:

> Just playing. You know, ride
> a bike, run around, pretending they are animals of some sort or
> whatever. Average, typical kid sort of playing.

All the time they are running and riding and pretending and being average
typical kids, they are learning, processing, blowing off steam so that the
next time they get the urge to do some serious thinking their bodies are
relaxed and fit and healthy and they can do so.

> Not to mentinon my
> son would sit and play Playstation for hours at a time if I didn't
> limit it.

There is limitless learning in life, and Playstation is no exception. My
daughter has learned almost everything she knows about reading through
playing video games that require reading. From us reading the screens to
her, and her playing them over and over, she has progressed on her own.

Limiting Playstation does nothing more, in my opinion, than develop an
artificially high desire for it. My daughters have never had limits on how
much tv, or how long playing video games, and they fluctuate from playing
for days on end to not looking at the various game systems for weeks. Where
there is no deprivation there is no fear-induced gorging.

> I guess I am wandering all over the place with this post
> but I would like to know about how structure can fit into the
> unschooling philosophy. And can it?
> Am I missing something about the unschooling philosophy? Sometimes
> I feel like I really don't "get it" yet.

You don't. And I don't mean that harshly -- it's one of those things that
can take some time to "get". This list will help.

When you stop thinking of play as "just play" and learning as "real work"
and "subjects", you'll have a made a big step.

One thing that sometimes helps new unschooling parents is to keep a journal
-- just for your own benefit, not for the kids to participate in directly --
of what your kids do all day every day and every possible small bit of
learning you notice they produce from their activity. When they're
pretending to be tigers, are they mentioning that tigers eat meat? Have
stripes? Pounce on prey? Have large fangs? If little Beulah most often
pretends to be a giraffe, she might very well like a giraffe video or poster
or book, to take or leave just as she could take or leave a new stuffed
animal you casually handed her. Playstation game guides only improve reading
and strategy skills. A costume tail or a pair of ears for the animal players
will improve the game, and the games is what they'll learn from.

Pam

SHYRLEY WILLIAMS

Finally got back online. Celyn is now 8 weeks old. Very needy - she screams when not being held. I've learnt to pee at high speed ;-)

Physically she is doing ok although she is behind 'normal' babies. Its too early to tell how handicapped she will be as the brain damage is in the basal ganglia which controls voluntary movements. As a 8 week baby she doesn't really make any purposeful movements as yet.

Fingers crossed.

We've spent an awful lot of time watching day-time TV as I need to hold or feed Celyn contsantly. Luckily the other 3 have re-discovered Runescape and spend a lot of time playing that. Mind you, Heather has got into chemistry big time and asks questions about valence and atomic bonds. Usually when I'm up to my armpits in nappy-soup.

Shyrley, typing one handed while unschooling :-)





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/5/2004 2:31:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dlauzon32@... writes:
Not to mentinon my son would sit and play Playstation for hours at a time if
I didn't
limit it.<<<<

Another one for Sandra's collection!

~Kelly <g>!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/5/2004 2:31:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dlauzon32@... writes:
Am I missing something about the unschooling philosophy? Sometimes
I feel like I really don't "get it" yet.<<<

A lot. You don't. Read the archives here. Go to www.SandraDodd.com; read
there. Go to www.unschooling.com; read there. Read, read, read.

Don't expect learning to look like "subjects" or historical reinactments.
Expect it to look like PlayStation, riding bikes, and acting like animals---you
know, typical kid stuff. That's how they learn!

Unschooling is NOT school, so it shouldn't *look like* school.

You need to read more and enjoy your children more. *Watch* the learning
happen in front of your eyes.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/5/04 3:08:14 AM, shyrley.williams@... writes:

<< Mind you, Heather has got into chemistry big time and asks questions about
valence and atomic bonds. Usually when I'm up to my armpits in nappy-soup. >>

You could tell her how (relatively) easily poop comes off with water, and why!
Diaper chemistry.

Yuck.

But otherwise, welcome back!!

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/5/04 5:15:38 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< Not to mentinon my son would sit and play Playstation for hours at a time
if
I didn't
limit it. >>

Got it, though it did fail to say "all day" which is my favorite.

I would watch a good three hour movie all the way through if someone didn't
stop me. (Luckily, they rarly stop me and sometimes watch parts or all with
me!)

I would stay up laughing with a friend I hadn't seen for years until 3:00
a.m. if someone didn't make me go to bed. (I'm rarely sorry when that happens;
it can be wonderful.)

I would eat until I wasn't hungry anymore if people didn't make me stop.
(Ceasing to eat when one is no longer hungry, without regard to 'cleaning a
plate,' is really quite a mark of maturity and self awareness.)

I would stay on the computer for hours sometimes if my husband let me. [I
did yesterday, because interruptions (fun ones, mostly) caused it to take four
hours for me to get through the e-mail and unschooling.com's message boards.]

If it sounds worse when applied to adults, that means people are not having
as much respect as they could have for children.

My collection is here:

http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet

The car keys scenario came up yesterday or Monday (at the message boards, I
think)--that without rules kids will drive the car (meaning little kids who
don't have a driving clue). But it didn't fit the format, so I didn't save it,
but isn't it an interesting "threat" (on a short list of traditional threats)
that being strict, rule-applying, limit-making parents keeps children safe
from being hit by a truck, driving a car with no training, shooting heroin right
then and there, and playing video games all day?

And here we are with three non-rule-bound, never hit by truck, never seen
heroin, stop playing games when they're finished, always-unschooled kids about
whom nobody complains? Relatives, neighbors, friends, all impressed by my kids'
behavior and attitude. (Maybe not always impressed by haircuts and clothing
and teaparty manners.) Police instructors at Junior Police Academy Marty
attended at 14 SURE we have lots of rules and discipline at our house, because
Marty is so attentive and courteous.

It can't be, then, that deprivations are necessary.

This post was in response to nothing but Kelly's post, as I know I'll be
interrupted soon by the arrival of a baby I'm holding this morning, and I am not
reading the e-mail in order; sorry.


Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/5/04 12:31:12 AM, dlauzon32@... writes:

<< They seem to get

stressed out (i.e. sibling fighting, bad attitudes, short tempers

etc.) when I leave them to their own devices and do not

impose "schoolwork" on them. Does anyone else's kids do this? >>

Kids will only do that if they've been trained to think schoolwork is good
and right and necessary, and that their own ideas and interests are less worthy.

-=-As far as them going off and delving into subjects all by themselves,

NO WAY! They would rather just play!-=-

You can't see unschooling until you know what it looks like.
It's not about "delving into subjects," it's about learning.
And children are *never* "just" playing. Be careful about that word "just"
when used as a minimizer. It can be a powerfully dismissive word.

-=- I guess I am wandering all over the place with this post

but I would like to know about how structure can fit into the

unschooling philosophy. And can it?-=-

No, you never wandered beyond pining for schoolishness.


Wandering all over the place would be fantastic for you!

Here are some short bits I think might help you:
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/194/jaunschooling.html
http://sandradodd.com/museum

And lots, by many people, about the value of video games:

http://sandradodd.com/games/page

People can recover from school. Lots of us have.

Sandra

the_clevengers

--- In [email protected], "dinalauzon"
<dlauzon32@h...> wrote:
> Most of what I have read about unschooling says that it is a very
> casual approach in the sense that you do what the kids are
> interested in at the moment. I, too, have a very casual approach
> because, well, *life* just gets in the way of our *schooling* most
> of the time.LOL BUT--- I have noticed that my kids handle life
much
> better when they have some sort of *schedule*.

Some people do handle life better when they have some sort of
schedule. My kids often like to make up a loose schedule for the day -
we call it a day plan, just so that they make sure that we fit in
the things that they really want to do. That way I can set aside
time, where otherwise things might slip past. But that's miles
different than imposing a schedule on them. You can always ask -
"hey, do you want to sit down and make a plan for the day?" it
that's something that they're interested in.

They seem to get
> stressed out (i.e. sibling fighting, bad attitudes, short tempers
> etc.) when I leave them to their own devices and do not
> impose "schoolwork" on them. Does anyone else's kids do this?

Sometimes my kids do this. It's usually a sign that I've gotten too
distracted with my own stuff and need to come hang out with them and
do stuff. If they're short-tempered or fighting, a wrestling match on
the bed, or baking something hands-on in the kitchen (kneading bread
dough or gooey cookies is a good one), or going outside to wander
down to the creek with them are all good options that don't involve
imposing schoolwork.

> As
> far as them going off and delving into subjects all by themselves,
> NO WAY! They would rather just play! And by playing I don't mean
> they are re-creating a time period in history or some other
> impressively educational experience. Just playing.

Two things here.
1)It's hard to say this if you haven't ever *tried* unschooling for
any given time. Kids who are made to do "schoolwork" will most
naturally avoid it when given time away from it. They might avoid
anything that looks vaguely related to school subjects for hours,
days, months, or years, depending on their reactions to it. There's
usually a time period known as "deschooling" when kids stop going to
school or doing school-at-home where the kids just need to decompress.
2) Learning for kids *is* play, and play is learning. If learning
isn't shown to them as something separated out and different from
everyday life, it will just be a natural and joyous part of their
every day existance. Right now, my kids are playing with Legos. They
might do it for a few minutes or a few hours, and I can guarantee
that they're not reinacting a historical battle with the Lego
figures. :-)


> I guess I am wandering all over the place with this post
> but I would like to know about how structure can fit into the
> unschooling philosophy. And can it?

I think it can, if the child desires structure and creates it. My
son, who is a Legomaniac, usually builds all kinds of interesting
creations of his own imagining. Every now and then, he'll pull out
the instructions for something (he saved them all in a box in his
room) and sit down and build for hours from the instructions. That is
structure that he's imposing. My daughter at age 3 asked for violin
lessons. She is still taking them, chooses to go, chooses to practice
every day, wants to make the pieces of music sound better, asks for
my help, etc. That's structure that she's imposed. Other things are
much more freeform. I guess it's the same in my life, some things I
choose structure, some things I choose none. It seems like the
natural way to go about things.

> Am I missing something about the unschooling philosophy? Sometimes
> I feel like I really don't "get it" yet.
> Someone enlighten me, please!

To really get unschooling, you need to let go of all of the ideas
about life, learning, play, the way children's minds work, what
children "need" etc. that our schooled society has told us
are "truths". For me, this happened over a period of years when my
kids were young and I spent my nursing time on the couch with a copy
of "Learning All the Time" by John Holt or "Dumbing Us Down" by John
Taylor Gatto, or "The Teenage Liberation Handbook" by Grace
Llewellyn. Later, I found email lists, bulletin boards, etc. like
this one where these ideas were discussed in greater deail and in
real life situations. All of that immersion helped to free my own
mind from some of its preconceived notions about learning
and "education". This list is a great resource. If you hang out here
for awhile and read, you'll see plenty of interesting situations
where unschooling plays out in real life.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

Mary

Welcome back Shyrley.

Have you got a sling for Celyn? Since she wants to be held all the time, it
sounds like a lifesaver for you and her. I wish I would have known about
them with my kids. Unfortunately when I did with the last child, she hated
it. I think the only kid in the world that didn't like the sling. Figures!

Mary B

pam sorooshian

On May 5, 2004, at 6:40 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> I would eat until I wasn't hungry anymore if people didn't make me
> stop.
> (Ceasing to eat when one is no longer hungry, without regard to
> 'cleaning a
> plate,' is really quite a mark of maturity and self awareness.)

Rosie told me the other day that sometimes people make comments to her
when she leaves just a bite or two of food on her plate, uneaten. She
said, "It seems like they think I should eat it just because it is
there, even though I KNOW that if I eat it that will be just one or two
bites too many and my stomach will be too full and it won't feel good."

Wish I had that awareness!!

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Robyn Coburn

<<Rosie told me the other day that sometimes people make comments to her
when she leaves just a bite or two of food on her plate, uneaten. She
said, "It seems like they think I should eat it just because it is
there, even though I KNOW that if I eat it that will be just one or two
bites too many and my stomach will be too full and it won't feel good.">>

This reminds me of that story (urban legend maybe?) about the foreign
exchange student who came from a country where the polite thing to do was
leave a couple of bites on your plate. The hostess, thinking he was just not
hungry, successively served smaller and smaller portions, until the poor guy
was rushing out to buy fast food before each meal to avoid starvation.

Robyn L. Coburn



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[email protected]

In a message dated 5/5/2004 3:42:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamhartley@... writes:

> Playstation game guides only improve reading
> and strategy skills.

Don't forget math skills, too! :~)

Sang


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

** Finally got back online. Celyn is now 8 weeks old. Very needy - she
screams when not being held. I've learnt to pee at high speed ;-)**

Hey, Shyrley, it's good to hear from you.

I used to pee holding my baby (for months!) and I learned to poop at
very high speed. I also took 90 second showers.

I'm very hopeful about Celyn's brain development and will send you all
my positive vibes. (Yes, I am a crunchy Californian.)

Doctors used to say that all the recovery that could be made after a
stroke would be made in the first year and then the situation was
hopeless. (Such cheerful fellows!) But my mom's boyfriend is over 70
and in the third year after a major stroke he still makes progress,
albeit slowly. And recent medical statements in the media have
acknowledged (paraphrasing) "Yeah, we were wrong. Progress does occur
after the first year."

If a very old brain can outperform the expectations of the medical
community, I would think a very young brain would have even more
potential to amaze us all.

Best wishes,
Betsy

kayb85

--- In [email protected], "dinalauzon"
<dlauzon32@h...> wrote:
> Most of what I have read about unschooling says that it is a very
> casual approach in the sense that you do what the kids are
> interested in at the moment.

Yes, but even if the interests are cartoons and video games. Not
just when they express an interest in something that neatly fits into
a school subject. Don't consider schoolish stuff to be more
important for learning than fun stuff.

As
> far as them going off and delving into subjects all by themselves,
> NO WAY! They would rather just play! And by playing I don't mean
> they are re-creating a time period in history or some other
> impressively educational experience. Just playing. You know, ride
> a bike, run around, pretending they are animals of some sort or
> whatever. Average, typical kid sort of playing. Not to mentinon
my
> son would sit and play Playstation for hours at a time if I didn't
> limit it. I guess I am wandering all over the place with this post
> but I would like to know about how structure can fit into the
> unschooling philosophy. And can it?

Learning doesn't have to look anything like school. Schooled-at-home
kids whose parents teach them with Konos and other unit study
curriculums expect their kids to be doing historical recreations and
other impressive "educational" things (in the way that you're meaning
educational). But unschooling isn't about everything always looking
like it came out of konos. Real life learning often doesn't look
anything like something that you'd do in a school-at-home
curriculum. Have you read John Holt's "How Children Learn"?

Unschooling is about letting go of schoolish ways and schoolish
expectations. It doesn't work if the mom says she won't teach
anymore but still expects the kids to spend their time doing
schoolish things.

Sheila

Elizabeth Hill

** Yes, but even if the interests are cartoons and video games. Not
just when they express an interest in something that neatly fits into
a school subject. Don't consider schoolish stuff to be more
important for learning than fun stuff. **


Good point. I swear it took me a couple of years reading about
unschooling to realize this.

I kept waiting for my son to be interested in something like "Geology",
or at least "Rocks". I was thinking he had no interests! Then my brain
unfroze and I realized that Pokemon IS an interest.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/5/04 4:15:30 PM, Sanguinegirl83@... writes:

<< > Playstation game guides only improve reading
> and strategy skills.

<<Don't forget math skills, too! :~) >>


And map reading.
And research.
And notation.

Kirby bought an index for Nintendo Power Magazines before he could read, and
I would help him look up game tips, when there Nintendo Power was on Issue #60
or so. He still has every issue he ever got, in order, in boxes, and the
indexes (he bought another one later; nowadays it's probably online) taught him
the notation for 72:30 (issue 72, page 30) which is the same kind of notation
used for the Bible, and Shakespeare, and other magazine research.

He learned to read maps because of the map of the game of the first Mario
game for original. It probably helped him to learn to read left to right,
because that's the way that game went.

And that was just starters, for a kid who was five and six years old.

Sandra

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], SHYRLEY WILLIAMS
<shyrley.williams@b...> wrote:
> Shyrley, typing one handed while unschooling :-)
>

Go, Shyrley, go! Way to trust unschooling and take care of that
babe. You have your own cheering section here across the puddle.
(Oh, I mean the Atlantic, not that puddle the baby made. <g>)
Peace,
Amy

Kelli Traaseth

Glad to see you're back! We've been thinking about you. :)


I'm in and out, with the move and my computer crashing. :(


Shyrley, I don't have your new e-mail address, will you e-mail me
at my yahoo account? -- kellitraas@...


Kelli~



--- In [email protected], SHYRLEY WILLIAMS
<shyrley.williams@b...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Finally got back online. Celyn is now 8 weeks old. Very needy -
she screams when not being held.