Swimming and Unschooling - Anything to Share?
[email protected]
As I signed 8-year-old DS up for swimming lessons today (he finally
asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have experienced
"swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of year,
maybe it's on other minds besides mine?
I have more questions and notions than answers to this. I'm figuring
maybe water safety/swimming falls somewhere between the have-to absolute
required to deal with other ubiquitous hazards, and the want-to-learn-more of other
sports skills? Or maybe it's more like guns, dependent on the family's
lifestyle as to whether it is ever introduced at all, but safety instruction is key
if there's a home pool or lots of water (we're in Florida, everyone swims and
goes to the beach, but I guess some places swimming isn't very relevant?) --
Glad for any stories and conversation on this from unschoolers! :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have experienced
"swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of year,
maybe it's on other minds besides mine?
I have more questions and notions than answers to this. I'm figuring
maybe water safety/swimming falls somewhere between the have-to absolute
required to deal with other ubiquitous hazards, and the want-to-learn-more of other
sports skills? Or maybe it's more like guns, dependent on the family's
lifestyle as to whether it is ever introduced at all, but safety instruction is key
if there's a home pool or lots of water (we're in Florida, everyone swims and
goes to the beach, but I guess some places swimming isn't very relevant?) --
Glad for any stories and conversation on this from unschoolers! :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
My kids hated swim lessons so we gave up on that.
Instead, they learned to swim first by being with their friends in the water every day...
and Second, by being on the swim team. Even my son, who was 13 at the time, finally perfected his stroke by being on the swim team.
Kristen
Instead, they learned to swim first by being with their friends in the water every day...
and Second, by being on the swim team. Even my son, who was 13 at the time, finally perfected his stroke by being on the swim team.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: jrossedd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 5:15 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Swimming and Unschooling - Anything to Share?
As I signed 8-year-old DS up for swimming lessons today (he finally
asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have experienced
"swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of year,
maybe it's on other minds besides mine?
I have more questions and notions than answers to this. I'm figuring
maybe water safety/swimming falls somewhere between the have-to absolute
required to deal with other ubiquitous hazards, and the want-to-learn-more of other
sports skills? Or maybe it's more like guns, dependent on the family's
lifestyle as to whether it is ever introduced at all, but safety instruction is key
if there's a home pool or lots of water (we're in Florida, everyone swims and
goes to the beach, but I guess some places swimming isn't very relevant?) --
Glad for any stories and conversation on this from unschoolers! :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn
My children always WANT to be involved in swimming lessons. They've
done so for as long as they can remember. I don't make them, they look
forward to it, and are very involved in how often, etc. We usually have
swimming lessons all summer long, so I think five sessions, two weeks
each. Last year we did less, because of traveling, mostly, and we were
busy. Last year Lexie volunteered at the pool. It was rather funny how
it came about. Lexie had seen other older kids volunteering, and wanted
to do so. We asked. I was told by the very young swim instructor in
the office "she's only eight, absolutely not, never, volunteers must be
12." I said "are there ever any exceptions?" She said, well I guess
there could be if the director of that city pool said it was OK." So I
asked her to ask the director (whom we had known for a few years. The
girl walked over to the director who is in the pool and asked, "Can an
eight year old volunteer?" The director said "Nope, they need to be
12," Then she noticed us waiting and said "oh wait, are you talking
about Lexie volunteering. Yeah, she can, what hours can she do this,
and for how long?" Once she heard it was Lexie, she knew it would be
fine! Lexie volunteered about three hours a day, for a few weeks,
before we left for our vacation. It gave her more time in the water,
she was helping the level 1 swimmers, and she did great. They assigned
her one kid for a class who did NOT want to get in the water. Lexie was
loving and gentle and by the end of the two week session that child was
going under the water and would only work with Lexie. It was quite a
wonderful thing to see.
Unschooling, to me, doesn't mean an absence of formal classes. Instead,
it simply means following a child's lead. Lexie is currently involved
in a rather formal film class, with kids from ages 9 to 18. Guess who
the 9 year old is? Yep, Lexie. There are weekly meetings, homework,
etc. as they write dialogue, scenes, figure out what props, etc. they
will need, etc. Lexie is the only girl in the group, which is fine with
her, because the star of their movie is a girl, and of course she got
that part. Even though she's the youngest, she is expected to do her
part, just as the other kids are.
Joylyn
jrossedd@... wrote:
done so for as long as they can remember. I don't make them, they look
forward to it, and are very involved in how often, etc. We usually have
swimming lessons all summer long, so I think five sessions, two weeks
each. Last year we did less, because of traveling, mostly, and we were
busy. Last year Lexie volunteered at the pool. It was rather funny how
it came about. Lexie had seen other older kids volunteering, and wanted
to do so. We asked. I was told by the very young swim instructor in
the office "she's only eight, absolutely not, never, volunteers must be
12." I said "are there ever any exceptions?" She said, well I guess
there could be if the director of that city pool said it was OK." So I
asked her to ask the director (whom we had known for a few years. The
girl walked over to the director who is in the pool and asked, "Can an
eight year old volunteer?" The director said "Nope, they need to be
12," Then she noticed us waiting and said "oh wait, are you talking
about Lexie volunteering. Yeah, she can, what hours can she do this,
and for how long?" Once she heard it was Lexie, she knew it would be
fine! Lexie volunteered about three hours a day, for a few weeks,
before we left for our vacation. It gave her more time in the water,
she was helping the level 1 swimmers, and she did great. They assigned
her one kid for a class who did NOT want to get in the water. Lexie was
loving and gentle and by the end of the two week session that child was
going under the water and would only work with Lexie. It was quite a
wonderful thing to see.
Unschooling, to me, doesn't mean an absence of formal classes. Instead,
it simply means following a child's lead. Lexie is currently involved
in a rather formal film class, with kids from ages 9 to 18. Guess who
the 9 year old is? Yep, Lexie. There are weekly meetings, homework,
etc. as they write dialogue, scenes, figure out what props, etc. they
will need, etc. Lexie is the only girl in the group, which is fine with
her, because the star of their movie is a girl, and of course she got
that part. Even though she's the youngest, she is expected to do her
part, just as the other kids are.
Joylyn
jrossedd@... wrote:
> As I signed 8-year-old DS up for swimming lessons today (he[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> finally
> asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have
> experienced
> "swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of
> year,
> maybe it's on other minds besides mine?
>
> I have more questions and notions than answers to this. I'm
> figuring
> maybe water safety/swimming falls somewhere between the have-to absolute
> required to deal with other ubiquitous hazards, and the
> want-to-learn-more of other
> sports skills? Or maybe it's more like guns, dependent on the family's
> lifestyle as to whether it is ever introduced at all, but safety
> instruction is key
> if there's a home pool or lots of water (we're in Florida, everyone
> swims and
> goes to the beach, but I guess some places swimming isn't very
> relevant?) --
>
> Glad for any stories and conversation on this from unschoolers!
> :) JJ
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
Elizabeth Hill
** As I signed 8-year-old DS up for swimming lessons today (he
finally
asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have
experienced
"swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of year,
maybe it's on other minds besides mine?**
My son refused lessons, even though dh had been a lifeguard and swimming
teacher and could have offered personalized instruction. My son worked
pretty industriously on developing his skills "by himself", but with our
supervision. Occasionally he would tolerate a tip on technique from his
dad, but mostly he worked things out in his own way. He got pretty
proficient.
Should I ever waver in my unschooling faith, you all have my permission
to remind me that doing it himself is my son's deeply ingrained
preference. I'd be stupid to go against the grain. :-)
Betsy
finally
asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have
experienced
"swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of year,
maybe it's on other minds besides mine?**
My son refused lessons, even though dh had been a lifeguard and swimming
teacher and could have offered personalized instruction. My son worked
pretty industriously on developing his skills "by himself", but with our
supervision. Occasionally he would tolerate a tip on technique from his
dad, but mostly he worked things out in his own way. He got pretty
proficient.
Should I ever waver in my unschooling faith, you all have my permission
to remind me that doing it himself is my son's deeply ingrained
preference. I'd be stupid to go against the grain. :-)
Betsy
[email protected]
It's too small a sample and there could be other factors, but of my three
children, Kirby has had the most lessons and is the worst swimmer and the least
interested in or willing to swim for fun. Marty, middle and middle.
Holly was too short when she went to lessons, and didn't like them, but she
had friends with a pool at their apartment, and their dad was willingto go down
and play with them in the water anytime any of them wanted to. Holly is the
best and bravest swimmer.
Her dad used to take her every Friday to a public pool where she would do
nearly nothing except jump off the high dive over and over.
When they went to a family outing, Marty rode a jetski and Holly was jumping
into Elephant Butte Lake off a pontoon boat over and over, and she and Marty
pulled the boat in the water, just to see if they could.
That's pretty brave.
We're in the desert and swimming isn't an everyday thing except for people
who work at pools or are on swim teams.
I think that with other things, lessons can work against learning and joy.
Watch and feel how the child is responding and go by that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
children, Kirby has had the most lessons and is the worst swimmer and the least
interested in or willing to swim for fun. Marty, middle and middle.
Holly was too short when she went to lessons, and didn't like them, but she
had friends with a pool at their apartment, and their dad was willingto go down
and play with them in the water anytime any of them wanted to. Holly is the
best and bravest swimmer.
Her dad used to take her every Friday to a public pool where she would do
nearly nothing except jump off the high dive over and over.
When they went to a family outing, Marty rode a jetski and Holly was jumping
into Elephant Butte Lake off a pontoon boat over and over, and she and Marty
pulled the boat in the water, just to see if they could.
That's pretty brave.
We're in the desert and swimming isn't an everyday thing except for people
who work at pools or are on swim teams.
I think that with other things, lessons can work against learning and joy.
Watch and feel how the child is responding and go by that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <jrossedd@...>
<<As I signed 8-year-old DS up for swimming lessons today (he finally
asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have
experienced
"swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of year,
maybe it's on other minds besides mine? >>
My first daughter horsed around in the pool that was at my mom's complex.
She always had her little swimmies and gradually asked for them not to be
blown up all the way. When my husband and I took her to Daytona one year,
there she was, swimming in the pool at the hotel. Little head barely above
water but she was doing it. She was 5-6 at the time.
With my younger kids, my SIL was always, every year, informing me about
swimming lessons at a local high school pool. From the time Joseph was born,
she was telling me about the lessons. When the kids were old enough to
understand, I would ask them if they wanted to go. They never did. And every
time I saw my SIL at my other SIL's house, where there was a pool and our
kids were in with their swimmies, she would tell me, AGAIN, about the
lessons.
I never learned to swim until I was 14. I had lessons. They terrified me and
my mom pulled me out. I learned on my own when we got a pool. I saw Tara
learn on her own too. Never had any doubts the other 3 would do anything but
learn when they wanted to.
We moved into a larger house over 3 years ago. We have a pool. We have a
pool fence. Alyssa is 3 and doesn't know how to swim. She knows to stay away
from the pool no matter what if her swimmies aren't on. She knows to stay
outside the fence if it's opened.
The first year we were here, the two middle kids learned to swim. We moved
here in Aug. and they were swimming on their own that same month. They are
fish now. They know water safety and what not to do and what to do if
there's a problem. We talk about that here. We go over it frequently. I have
no doubt Alyssa will learn on her own just like the others did.
Mary B
<<As I signed 8-year-old DS up for swimming lessons today (he finally
asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have
experienced
"swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of year,
maybe it's on other minds besides mine? >>
My first daughter horsed around in the pool that was at my mom's complex.
She always had her little swimmies and gradually asked for them not to be
blown up all the way. When my husband and I took her to Daytona one year,
there she was, swimming in the pool at the hotel. Little head barely above
water but she was doing it. She was 5-6 at the time.
With my younger kids, my SIL was always, every year, informing me about
swimming lessons at a local high school pool. From the time Joseph was born,
she was telling me about the lessons. When the kids were old enough to
understand, I would ask them if they wanted to go. They never did. And every
time I saw my SIL at my other SIL's house, where there was a pool and our
kids were in with their swimmies, she would tell me, AGAIN, about the
lessons.
I never learned to swim until I was 14. I had lessons. They terrified me and
my mom pulled me out. I learned on my own when we got a pool. I saw Tara
learn on her own too. Never had any doubts the other 3 would do anything but
learn when they wanted to.
We moved into a larger house over 3 years ago. We have a pool. We have a
pool fence. Alyssa is 3 and doesn't know how to swim. She knows to stay away
from the pool no matter what if her swimmies aren't on. She knows to stay
outside the fence if it's opened.
The first year we were here, the two middle kids learned to swim. We moved
here in Aug. and they were swimming on their own that same month. They are
fish now. They know water safety and what not to do and what to do if
there's a problem. We talk about that here. We go over it frequently. I have
no doubt Alyssa will learn on her own just like the others did.
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/2004 5:16:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jrossedd@... writes:
his lead and see where it goes.
My DS (6) has been a fish from birth but still hasn't gotten into the formal
lesson thing, I've asked but he's not really interested. We have a pool, so
he gets what he needs that way. He's had a lot of fun over the years jumping,
trying to swim, and, just playing in the water. We thought we should put him
in lessons since we got this house because the safety issue is there everyday
but we've never had a reason to worry because so far we are always with the
kids in the yard and we've done the CPR thing, and the pool has no open access.
Now he has a MAJOR interest in diving and he has begun asking about taking
lessons for that but I'm not sure how young formal lessons start for that.
I think letting them explore the water and enjoy it, that's the main thing.
A friend of mine was determined to make her kids safe in the water, especially
since we have a pool and invite them for swims, so she forces lessons on her
two kids and her DD loves going in the pool (but doesn't really like her
lessons) but her DS doesn't enjoy it at all, so when he comes over he justs plays
in the yard. So it's for the kids, let them decide.
And whether it's something in your area all-year-round or you're freezing
your booty off in Alaska, if the interest is there, that's what makes it
relevant. There's always indoor pools. Safety is always a concern around water but
being watchful helps and instead of "training" a child, we can always start by
preparing ourselves with CPR and all that.
Pamela
An unschooler in the making
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jrossedd@... writes:
> As I signed 8-year-old DS up for swimming lessons today (he finallyYou've already made a great move by letting him ASK for the lessons. Follow
> asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have
> experienced
> "swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of year,
> maybe it's on other minds besides mine?
>
his lead and see where it goes.
My DS (6) has been a fish from birth but still hasn't gotten into the formal
lesson thing, I've asked but he's not really interested. We have a pool, so
he gets what he needs that way. He's had a lot of fun over the years jumping,
trying to swim, and, just playing in the water. We thought we should put him
in lessons since we got this house because the safety issue is there everyday
but we've never had a reason to worry because so far we are always with the
kids in the yard and we've done the CPR thing, and the pool has no open access.
Now he has a MAJOR interest in diving and he has begun asking about taking
lessons for that but I'm not sure how young formal lessons start for that.
I think letting them explore the water and enjoy it, that's the main thing.
A friend of mine was determined to make her kids safe in the water, especially
since we have a pool and invite them for swims, so she forces lessons on her
two kids and her DD loves going in the pool (but doesn't really like her
lessons) but her DS doesn't enjoy it at all, so when he comes over he justs plays
in the yard. So it's for the kids, let them decide.
And whether it's something in your area all-year-round or you're freezing
your booty off in Alaska, if the interest is there, that's what makes it
relevant. There's always indoor pools. Safety is always a concern around water but
being watchful helps and instead of "training" a child, we can always start by
preparing ourselves with CPR and all that.
Pamela
An unschooler in the making
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn
Mary
Swimmies are dangerous. They give kids a false sense of security,
parents too! Kids who use them are most likely to drown, in my
opinion. They do not understand how their body reacts with and floats
in water. If they ever did fall in without their floaties they would be
unable to deal with the water, as they would feel different in the water
without the swimmies.
My girls were both strong swimmers before the age of four. Janene could
swim at 9 months, no lessons, just put her int he water and she swam.
Lexie was 18 months when she first went in, and she was also a natural
swimmer. Their early lessons were simply being in the water with mommy
or daddy and other babies, playing and learning important things like
"fall in, turn around immediatley" (Children drown because they fall in
and see the other side of the pool and try to get to it, never realizing
that if they simply turned around the edge would be within an arms
length.) I think young babies often are natural swimmers, and as long
as water play continues to happen (without flotations) through out the
toddler and preschool years. At nine, lexie is as water safe as can be
(there really is no such thing) and Janene will be so in another few
years. They are strong swimmers. They never used a flotation device
besides a noodle, and that was for water play, not safety. I practice
constant supervision, and constant swimming (hard to learn to swim if
you only swim every so often.)
btw, Sandra, I was raised in NM and we were swimming a few times a week
or more often, year round. I was on swim team for a while, but even
when we weren't on swim team we swam all the time. My mother is very
into water, and for a whiel she and I swam every morning at 6am at the
local high school. It was a good time. I should do that again.
Joylyn
Mary wrote:
Swimmies are dangerous. They give kids a false sense of security,
parents too! Kids who use them are most likely to drown, in my
opinion. They do not understand how their body reacts with and floats
in water. If they ever did fall in without their floaties they would be
unable to deal with the water, as they would feel different in the water
without the swimmies.
My girls were both strong swimmers before the age of four. Janene could
swim at 9 months, no lessons, just put her int he water and she swam.
Lexie was 18 months when she first went in, and she was also a natural
swimmer. Their early lessons were simply being in the water with mommy
or daddy and other babies, playing and learning important things like
"fall in, turn around immediatley" (Children drown because they fall in
and see the other side of the pool and try to get to it, never realizing
that if they simply turned around the edge would be within an arms
length.) I think young babies often are natural swimmers, and as long
as water play continues to happen (without flotations) through out the
toddler and preschool years. At nine, lexie is as water safe as can be
(there really is no such thing) and Janene will be so in another few
years. They are strong swimmers. They never used a flotation device
besides a noodle, and that was for water play, not safety. I practice
constant supervision, and constant swimming (hard to learn to swim if
you only swim every so often.)
btw, Sandra, I was raised in NM and we were swimming a few times a week
or more often, year round. I was on swim team for a while, but even
when we weren't on swim team we swam all the time. My mother is very
into water, and for a whiel she and I swam every morning at 6am at the
local high school. It was a good time. I should do that again.
Joylyn
Mary wrote:
> From: <jrossedd@...>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> <<As I signed 8-year-old DS up for swimming lessons today (he finally
> asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have
> experienced
> "swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of year,
> maybe it's on other minds besides mine? >>
>
>
>
> My first daughter horsed around in the pool that was at my mom's complex.
> She always had her little swimmies and gradually asked for them not to be
> blown up all the way. When my husband and I took her to Daytona one year,
> there she was, swimming in the pool at the hotel. Little head barely above
> water but she was doing it. She was 5-6 at the time.
>
> With my younger kids, my SIL was always, every year, informing me about
> swimming lessons at a local high school pool. From the time Joseph was
> born,
> she was telling me about the lessons. When the kids were old enough to
> understand, I would ask them if they wanted to go. They never did. And
> every
> time I saw my SIL at my other SIL's house, where there was a pool and our
> kids were in with their swimmies, she would tell me, AGAIN, about the
> lessons.
>
> I never learned to swim until I was 14. I had lessons. They terrified
> me and
> my mom pulled me out. I learned on my own when we got a pool. I saw Tara
> learn on her own too. Never had any doubts the other 3 would do
> anything but
> learn when they wanted to.
>
> We moved into a larger house over 3 years ago. We have a pool. We have a
> pool fence. Alyssa is 3 and doesn't know how to swim. She knows to
> stay away
> from the pool no matter what if her swimmies aren't on. She knows to stay
> outside the fence if it's opened.
>
> The first year we were here, the two middle kids learned to swim. We moved
> here in Aug. and they were swimming on their own that same month. They are
> fish now. They know water safety and what not to do and what to do if
> there's a problem. We talk about that here. We go over it frequently.
> I have
> no doubt Alyssa will learn on her own just like the others did.
>
> Mary B
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/2004 5:17:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jrossedd@... writes:
I have more questions and notions than answers to this. I'm figuring
maybe water safety/swimming falls somewhere between the have-to absolute
required to deal with other ubiquitous hazards, and the want-to-learn-more of
other
sports skills?<<<<
We have a pool, so we can swim every day. Duncan (8) has never had a lesson.
He swims like a fish.
We have friends that have had lessons every summer---but still have to have
lessons every summer. They're fearful of the "deep end", even though the
"shallow end" is over the littlun's head! When they're little, why even *mention*
the different ends? It's ALL deep to a three year old!
Duncan flies off the dive and dives to the bottom for pennies. He's as
comfortable in the water as out.
In our experience, it's all about how much time you spend in the water, NOT
the lessons.
Kind of like unschooling! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jrossedd@... writes:
I have more questions and notions than answers to this. I'm figuring
maybe water safety/swimming falls somewhere between the have-to absolute
required to deal with other ubiquitous hazards, and the want-to-learn-more of
other
sports skills?<<<<
We have a pool, so we can swim every day. Duncan (8) has never had a lesson.
He swims like a fish.
We have friends that have had lessons every summer---but still have to have
lessons every summer. They're fearful of the "deep end", even though the
"shallow end" is over the littlun's head! When they're little, why even *mention*
the different ends? It's ALL deep to a three year old!
Duncan flies off the dive and dives to the bottom for pennies. He's as
comfortable in the water as out.
In our experience, it's all about how much time you spend in the water, NOT
the lessons.
Kind of like unschooling! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
Hmmm. I'm glad this was brought up, because it touches on something
I'm struggling with in general.
I'd like to go to the pool this summer, but am nervous about trying
to watch a 3.5 y o and a 1.5 y o. I was thinking about starting
lessons for both of them soon, to get them and me used to the water
and so that my son could learn some safety rules when it's one on one
with either me or dh, not when it's me watching both kids.
I know there's a kiddie pool where we'd spend most of our time, but
then Mikey would want to go off with the big kids (he has no clue the
9 year olds don't seem him as a peer!) right when Caroline had a
poopie diaper.
BUT.
I know that when I'm this uptight and worried about a situation, I'm
usually obsessing and that doesn't help Mikey learn anything. I know
that I'm scared of new situations. I know that's not productive, but
it's hard to see a path that would work when you're really tense.
Dh isn't interested in going to the pool, but I can "make" him go
with me the first couple times. Or I can go with a friend with an
older child...
It's one example of an issue I'm struggling with. I've been meaning
to post about when siblings start fighting. I get very upset at
seeing my son hit my daughter. We have great talks about being nice
to each other and he's a sweetie a lot of the time. The other times,
I'm not sure how to avoid over-reacting without not reacting at all.
Okay, now that I seem completely off-balance, I'll mention that most
of the time I'm pretty calm. Just not sure what to fill in instead of
lecturing in an annoyed or fearful tone.
--aj
I'm struggling with in general.
I'd like to go to the pool this summer, but am nervous about trying
to watch a 3.5 y o and a 1.5 y o. I was thinking about starting
lessons for both of them soon, to get them and me used to the water
and so that my son could learn some safety rules when it's one on one
with either me or dh, not when it's me watching both kids.
I know there's a kiddie pool where we'd spend most of our time, but
then Mikey would want to go off with the big kids (he has no clue the
9 year olds don't seem him as a peer!) right when Caroline had a
poopie diaper.
BUT.
I know that when I'm this uptight and worried about a situation, I'm
usually obsessing and that doesn't help Mikey learn anything. I know
that I'm scared of new situations. I know that's not productive, but
it's hard to see a path that would work when you're really tense.
Dh isn't interested in going to the pool, but I can "make" him go
with me the first couple times. Or I can go with a friend with an
older child...
It's one example of an issue I'm struggling with. I've been meaning
to post about when siblings start fighting. I get very upset at
seeing my son hit my daughter. We have great talks about being nice
to each other and he's a sweetie a lot of the time. The other times,
I'm not sure how to avoid over-reacting without not reacting at all.
Okay, now that I seem completely off-balance, I'll mention that most
of the time I'm pretty calm. Just not sure what to fill in instead of
lecturing in an annoyed or fearful tone.
--aj
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], jrossedd@a... wrote:
of them are taking swimming lessons now. DS (7.5) didn't even set a
foot in the water until almost 5. He has some pretty serious sensory
issues, so of course we didn't push that one. Once he did go in, he
was swimming within a year. He's a great natural swimmer, though we
wouldn't have known it from his early reactions. DD (4.5)has been a
water hound since day 1 (well, both kids were water births, so really
since day 1!). We went to Hawaii when she was 4 months old and I took
her in the pool there. After that, all vacation long, whenever we
walked by the pool at the hotel she would screech and reach her arms
towards the water. That interest has never waned, she always wants to
go swimming. Interestingly, she's just now starting to swim without a
floatie - at about the same age that DS did (who rarely set foot in a
pool before that). So the amount of exposure to water didn't make
that big of a difference.
All that being said, I have read of studies where they showed that
the single biggest influence on whether a child became a great
swimmer when they were older was the amount of time that they
*played* in the water (especially deeper water like ponds or lakes,
where they had to tread water). Playing around in the water gives a
person a great feel for how to move water with their hands and feet -
something good swimmers just seem to know instinctively.
As an a swim instructor and coach who teaches a class of adult
swimmers, I can tell you that most people do not learn how to swim
well from the swim lessons that they take as children. Most
techniques that swim instructors use on young children are incorrect
and will actually stand them poorly later on when they have to try
and change these bad habits (unfortunately, I'm the one trying to
help them break these bad habits, and it's hard!!!). Most swim
teachers who teach kids swimming aren't excellent swimmers
themselves. Now personally, it would make little sense for me to hire
something like a violin teacher who didn't play well. But
surprisingly, many people do this for swimming. The swim teacher that
my kids had, they really liked. Also, I saw her swimming all the
time, even when she wasn't teaching (actually, she's the only one out
of all of the instructors where I work that I regularly see actually
swimming by herself). I thought she was a good match for both
reasons. At a certain point, each of the kids wanted to quit lessons,
so they did, but I do have a personal requirement that they learn
water safety - enough skills to keep themselves safe in the water -
for me, that stems from my experience as a lifeguard, having to, on a
couple of occasions, save children who didn't have good water safety
skills. They've chosen to do that with me right now. That's been our
experience so far.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
> As I signed 8-year-old DS up for swimming lessons today (hefinally
> asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may haveexperienced
> "swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that timeof year,
> maybe it's on other minds besides mine?Both of my kids have had swimming lessons at various times. Neither
of them are taking swimming lessons now. DS (7.5) didn't even set a
foot in the water until almost 5. He has some pretty serious sensory
issues, so of course we didn't push that one. Once he did go in, he
was swimming within a year. He's a great natural swimmer, though we
wouldn't have known it from his early reactions. DD (4.5)has been a
water hound since day 1 (well, both kids were water births, so really
since day 1!). We went to Hawaii when she was 4 months old and I took
her in the pool there. After that, all vacation long, whenever we
walked by the pool at the hotel she would screech and reach her arms
towards the water. That interest has never waned, she always wants to
go swimming. Interestingly, she's just now starting to swim without a
floatie - at about the same age that DS did (who rarely set foot in a
pool before that). So the amount of exposure to water didn't make
that big of a difference.
All that being said, I have read of studies where they showed that
the single biggest influence on whether a child became a great
swimmer when they were older was the amount of time that they
*played* in the water (especially deeper water like ponds or lakes,
where they had to tread water). Playing around in the water gives a
person a great feel for how to move water with their hands and feet -
something good swimmers just seem to know instinctively.
As an a swim instructor and coach who teaches a class of adult
swimmers, I can tell you that most people do not learn how to swim
well from the swim lessons that they take as children. Most
techniques that swim instructors use on young children are incorrect
and will actually stand them poorly later on when they have to try
and change these bad habits (unfortunately, I'm the one trying to
help them break these bad habits, and it's hard!!!). Most swim
teachers who teach kids swimming aren't excellent swimmers
themselves. Now personally, it would make little sense for me to hire
something like a violin teacher who didn't play well. But
surprisingly, many people do this for swimming. The swim teacher that
my kids had, they really liked. Also, I saw her swimming all the
time, even when she wasn't teaching (actually, she's the only one out
of all of the instructors where I work that I regularly see actually
swimming by herself). I thought she was a good match for both
reasons. At a certain point, each of the kids wanted to quit lessons,
so they did, but I do have a personal requirement that they learn
water safety - enough skills to keep themselves safe in the water -
for me, that stems from my experience as a lifeguard, having to, on a
couple of occasions, save children who didn't have good water safety
skills. They've chosen to do that with me right now. That's been our
experience so far.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
Mary
From: "joylyn" <joylyn@...>
<<Mary
Swimmies are dangerous. They give kids a false sense of security,
parents too! Kids who use them are most likely to drown, in my
opinion. They do not understand how their body reacts with and floats
in water. If they ever did fall in without their floaties they would be
unable to deal with the water, as they would feel different in the water
without the swimmies. >>
Swimmies may be dangerous if you don't watch your kids. Just like walkers
and all the horror stories about those. All 4 of my kids had walkers and
swimmies and all managed to get through those dangers just fine. We watch
our kids. For us and our kids, swimmies are not dangerous.
Mary B
<<Mary
Swimmies are dangerous. They give kids a false sense of security,
parents too! Kids who use them are most likely to drown, in my
opinion. They do not understand how their body reacts with and floats
in water. If they ever did fall in without their floaties they would be
unable to deal with the water, as they would feel different in the water
without the swimmies. >>
Swimmies may be dangerous if you don't watch your kids. Just like walkers
and all the horror stories about those. All 4 of my kids had walkers and
swimmies and all managed to get through those dangers just fine. We watch
our kids. For us and our kids, swimmies are not dangerous.
Mary B
J. Stauffer
We have a backyard pool. All 5 of my kids learned to swim very well simply
by playing in the water. They all played on the steps or wore floaty
devices for as long as they wanted, were never asked to do anything.....they
all swim very, very well.
Julie S.
by playing in the water. They all played on the steps or wore floaty
devices for as long as they wanted, were never asked to do anything.....they
all swim very, very well.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary" <mummy124@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Swimming and Unschooling - Anything to
Share?
> From: <jrossedd@...>
>
>
> <<As I signed 8-year-old DS up for swimming lessons today (he finally
> asked for them) it occurred to me to ask how others here may have
> experienced
> "swimming" in connection to unschooling, and since it's that time of year,
> maybe it's on other minds besides mine? >>
>
>
>
> My first daughter horsed around in the pool that was at my mom's complex.
> She always had her little swimmies and gradually asked for them not to be
> blown up all the way. When my husband and I took her to Daytona one year,
> there she was, swimming in the pool at the hotel. Little head barely above
> water but she was doing it. She was 5-6 at the time.
>
> With my younger kids, my SIL was always, every year, informing me about
> swimming lessons at a local high school pool. From the time Joseph was
born,
> she was telling me about the lessons. When the kids were old enough to
> understand, I would ask them if they wanted to go. They never did. And
every
> time I saw my SIL at my other SIL's house, where there was a pool and our
> kids were in with their swimmies, she would tell me, AGAIN, about the
> lessons.
>
> I never learned to swim until I was 14. I had lessons. They terrified me
and
> my mom pulled me out. I learned on my own when we got a pool. I saw Tara
> learn on her own too. Never had any doubts the other 3 would do anything
but
> learn when they wanted to.
>
> We moved into a larger house over 3 years ago. We have a pool. We have a
> pool fence. Alyssa is 3 and doesn't know how to swim. She knows to stay
away
> from the pool no matter what if her swimmies aren't on. She knows to stay
> outside the fence if it's opened.
>
> The first year we were here, the two middle kids learned to swim. We moved
> here in Aug. and they were swimming on their own that same month. They are
> fish now. They know water safety and what not to do and what to do if
> there's a problem. We talk about that here. We go over it frequently. I
have
> no doubt Alyssa will learn on her own just like the others did.
>
> Mary B
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
joylyn
Yes, but not everyone does watch their children, all the time. I just
spent four hours at the pool, and I was the ONLY parent there who never
stopped watching the pool. One parent came with a non-swimming 9ish
girl, and promptly went to sleep. There was a party in the clubhouse
next to the pool, and I was the ONLY adult outside, all other adults
were inside the clubhouse. There were probably 15 kids, ages 4-15 in
the pool from the party. I was the one who rescued the 6ish child who
got out beyond his ability to walk and almost drowned, with his finger
tips 3 inches from being able to reach the side.
Yes, I think that there are some parents, maybe even many parents, who
can use inherently dangerous devices like swimmies and walkers, and
their kids grow up fine. But that does not negate the idea that
swimmies are dangerous. All it takes is ten seconds next to water and a
child can drown. A few years ago I rescued a four year old. He was
wearing swimmies. He had spent an hour in the pool, while his mother
talked on the phone and read and slept next to the pool. The child was
all over the pool, in the deep end, etc. To him, HE COULD SWIM! Cause,
in his swimmies, he could. His mom was getting him ready to go, had
taken off his swimmies, and turned around to gather their items. Her
phone rang so she answered it. In the mean time her child had jumped
back into the deep end. He could swim well there a few minutes ago, why
not now? I jumped in after him, dragged him from the bottom, and had
him out of the pool before his mom realized he was in the pool. Sure,
she was,w ell, not attentive, but I don't watch my kids every second.
Not all pools are safe. Your child could be with a neighbor or a
friend's parent who doesn't watch as closely. There are lots of ifs,
and children die every year because of pools and water.
We had a walker too. We watched our child in it, and we knew it was
dangerous, but we used it anyway. We made a choice to do so. If you
want to use swimmies, fine. But, you should know, they are dangerous.
They give the child a sense of power in the water they don't really have.
Water is dangerous. Swimmies add to that danger.
Joylyn
Mary wrote:
spent four hours at the pool, and I was the ONLY parent there who never
stopped watching the pool. One parent came with a non-swimming 9ish
girl, and promptly went to sleep. There was a party in the clubhouse
next to the pool, and I was the ONLY adult outside, all other adults
were inside the clubhouse. There were probably 15 kids, ages 4-15 in
the pool from the party. I was the one who rescued the 6ish child who
got out beyond his ability to walk and almost drowned, with his finger
tips 3 inches from being able to reach the side.
Yes, I think that there are some parents, maybe even many parents, who
can use inherently dangerous devices like swimmies and walkers, and
their kids grow up fine. But that does not negate the idea that
swimmies are dangerous. All it takes is ten seconds next to water and a
child can drown. A few years ago I rescued a four year old. He was
wearing swimmies. He had spent an hour in the pool, while his mother
talked on the phone and read and slept next to the pool. The child was
all over the pool, in the deep end, etc. To him, HE COULD SWIM! Cause,
in his swimmies, he could. His mom was getting him ready to go, had
taken off his swimmies, and turned around to gather their items. Her
phone rang so she answered it. In the mean time her child had jumped
back into the deep end. He could swim well there a few minutes ago, why
not now? I jumped in after him, dragged him from the bottom, and had
him out of the pool before his mom realized he was in the pool. Sure,
she was,w ell, not attentive, but I don't watch my kids every second.
Not all pools are safe. Your child could be with a neighbor or a
friend's parent who doesn't watch as closely. There are lots of ifs,
and children die every year because of pools and water.
We had a walker too. We watched our child in it, and we knew it was
dangerous, but we used it anyway. We made a choice to do so. If you
want to use swimmies, fine. But, you should know, they are dangerous.
They give the child a sense of power in the water they don't really have.
Water is dangerous. Swimmies add to that danger.
Joylyn
Mary wrote:
> From: "joylyn" <joylyn@...>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> <<Mary
> Swimmies are dangerous. They give kids a false sense of security,
> parents too! Kids who use them are most likely to drown, in my
> opinion. They do not understand how their body reacts with and floats
> in water. If they ever did fall in without their floaties they would be
> unable to deal with the water, as they would feel different in the water
> without the swimmies. >>
>
>
> Swimmies may be dangerous if you don't watch your kids. Just like walkers
> and all the horror stories about those. All 4 of my kids had walkers and
> swimmies and all managed to get through those dangers just fine. We watch
> our kids. For us and our kids, swimmies are not dangerous.
>
> Mary B
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
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>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
>
Robyn Coburn
Jayn has been going into the pool with us since she was less than one. And
she has always loved the water. Before fully getting into unschooling, she
did take some lessons from a nice enough lady who came to our house. We had
come back from our 4 months in Texas, so it was when Jayn was 2.5. She had
been using a vest type floaty with front and back pockets containing sheets
of foam that you could sequentially remove as the child's proficiency
increased. I had gotten down to about half of them by the time Jayn
dispensed with this item entirely.
The teacher focused on getting Jayn to put her face under the water (to say
hello to the plastic toys) and to get her to float holding on to a broom
stick, without floaties. Jayn would decide when the lesson was over, and
quite liked Joy. I guess the main idea was about floating, but I didn't see
any "progress" towards swimming. Of course Jayn was so willing to get her
face wet, jump in, splash herself and whoever she was playing with, outside
of the lessons. I never really felt the lessons were much good, and I
watched every one from above expecting to gain some insight into how I could
help Jayn learn to swim enough to be safe if she fell in - didn't happen.
Constant vigilance is what we practice around our pool.
The following summer Jayn and our neighbors simply played in the pool. (Jayn
being 3.5) In the course of those few months all three kids went from
floaties to no floaties of any kind. I would ask Jayn if she wanted hers,
and usually she would start with her vest on, and then have me take it off.
Jonah, just a few months older than Jayn is a fantastic natural swimmer -
diving to the bottom of the deep end to retrieve tocks and toys. Renee is so
much taller (2 years older) that she was on her tip toes while Jayn and
Jonah were forced to dog paddle. They also did a lot of leaping into my arms
in the water. She could dogpaddle the length of the pool - 25 ft - and a few
strokes underwater.
I had to ask the neighbor's aunt to stop repeating to Jayn to keep her mouth
closed to not swallow water - not wanting Jayn's enjoyment destroyed just
because Aunt can't let go of trying to control her family. I also had to be
in the water with Jonah and Jayn, because sometimes he would get rough and
want to pull Jayn under - and she was sometimes scared of him.
She still swims and insists on going in the water even now before the heater
is turned on and it is very cold - and sometimes in her clothes. Any chance
she gets to swim she has grabbed and I feel it is all her own work.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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she has always loved the water. Before fully getting into unschooling, she
did take some lessons from a nice enough lady who came to our house. We had
come back from our 4 months in Texas, so it was when Jayn was 2.5. She had
been using a vest type floaty with front and back pockets containing sheets
of foam that you could sequentially remove as the child's proficiency
increased. I had gotten down to about half of them by the time Jayn
dispensed with this item entirely.
The teacher focused on getting Jayn to put her face under the water (to say
hello to the plastic toys) and to get her to float holding on to a broom
stick, without floaties. Jayn would decide when the lesson was over, and
quite liked Joy. I guess the main idea was about floating, but I didn't see
any "progress" towards swimming. Of course Jayn was so willing to get her
face wet, jump in, splash herself and whoever she was playing with, outside
of the lessons. I never really felt the lessons were much good, and I
watched every one from above expecting to gain some insight into how I could
help Jayn learn to swim enough to be safe if she fell in - didn't happen.
Constant vigilance is what we practice around our pool.
The following summer Jayn and our neighbors simply played in the pool. (Jayn
being 3.5) In the course of those few months all three kids went from
floaties to no floaties of any kind. I would ask Jayn if she wanted hers,
and usually she would start with her vest on, and then have me take it off.
Jonah, just a few months older than Jayn is a fantastic natural swimmer -
diving to the bottom of the deep end to retrieve tocks and toys. Renee is so
much taller (2 years older) that she was on her tip toes while Jayn and
Jonah were forced to dog paddle. They also did a lot of leaping into my arms
in the water. She could dogpaddle the length of the pool - 25 ft - and a few
strokes underwater.
I had to ask the neighbor's aunt to stop repeating to Jayn to keep her mouth
closed to not swallow water - not wanting Jayn's enjoyment destroyed just
because Aunt can't let go of trying to control her family. I also had to be
in the water with Jonah and Jayn, because sometimes he would get rough and
want to pull Jayn under - and she was sometimes scared of him.
She still swims and insists on going in the water even now before the heater
is turned on and it is very cold - and sometimes in her clothes. Any chance
she gets to swim she has grabbed and I feel it is all her own work.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Mary
From: "joylyn" <joylyn@...>
<<We had a walker too. We watched our child in it, and we knew it was
dangerous, but we used it anyway. We made a choice to do so. If you
want to use swimmies, fine. But, you should know, they are dangerous.
They give the child a sense of power in the water they don't really have. >>
Maybe it's my mood, maybe it's the way you seem to come across. I have a
problem with you making a blatant statement about swimmies being dangerous.
You pointed how you feel you think they give the child a false sense of
security and also the parents. No facts really, just a feeling you have.
I have known children personally who have drowned in back yard pools. More
than half of those children had swimming lessons and learned how to float if
they ever fell into a pool. I certainly wouldn't make a statement about
lessons being dangerous and giving a false sense of security to anyone. I
would state that no matter what the circumstances were, children should be
watched by a pool or any kind of water.
None of my kids ever thought they could swim just because they had their
swimmies on. None of my kids were ever not watched because they had their
swimmies on. Yes some parents don't watch their kids. I do.
And just for the record, I never thought walkers were *dangerous* either.
Mary B
<<We had a walker too. We watched our child in it, and we knew it was
dangerous, but we used it anyway. We made a choice to do so. If you
want to use swimmies, fine. But, you should know, they are dangerous.
They give the child a sense of power in the water they don't really have. >>
Maybe it's my mood, maybe it's the way you seem to come across. I have a
problem with you making a blatant statement about swimmies being dangerous.
You pointed how you feel you think they give the child a false sense of
security and also the parents. No facts really, just a feeling you have.
I have known children personally who have drowned in back yard pools. More
than half of those children had swimming lessons and learned how to float if
they ever fell into a pool. I certainly wouldn't make a statement about
lessons being dangerous and giving a false sense of security to anyone. I
would state that no matter what the circumstances were, children should be
watched by a pool or any kind of water.
None of my kids ever thought they could swim just because they had their
swimmies on. None of my kids were ever not watched because they had their
swimmies on. Yes some parents don't watch their kids. I do.
And just for the record, I never thought walkers were *dangerous* either.
Mary B
Kristi
> Yes, I think that there are some parents, maybe even many parents,who
> can use inherently dangerous devices like swimmies and walkers,and
> their kids grow up fine. But that does not negate the idea thatThe "I did it and my kids are fine" argument isn't a great one.
> swimmies are dangerous.
Most formula fed kids grow up fine, though the dangers of formula
and goodness of breastmilk are clear, for example. However, calling
formula "dangerous" would be an exaggeration on my part, no matter
how strongly I feel about giving children breastmilk substitutes
only in emergencies or extreme medical circumstances. Formula can
save lives.
Swimmies are likewise. The points about their danger are valid.
However, in the Skowhegan, ME area where I used to live, a family
went swimming in the river, and all drowned in the current except
the littlest one who was wearing swimmies and was found at the bank
downriver two hours later. Not that one story implies they are
safe, either, but that nothing is absolute.
Lots of things can be dangerous. Water is dangerous to children
whether they wear swimmies or not -- the question is water
education. A kid who has never been in water or has only dealt in
kiddie pools and bathtubs will have no more respect for deep water
than a kid who's been in swimmies from birth -- unless they've
learned about water and its potential danger. OTOH, a child who's
wears swimmies can likewise still have an understanding of water
safety.
Kristi
joylyn
Mary wrote:
only one that "feels" this way. The red cross, the army, and the AAP
also agree with me. The last link was particularly good.
http://www.redcross.org/services/hss/tips/healthtips/safetywater.html#children
http://watersafety.usace.army.mil/safetytips.htm
from
http://www.aap.org/family/tipppool.htm
Do not let your child use air-filled "swimming aids" because they are
not a substitute for approved life vests and can be dangerous.
http://wy.essortment.com/childrenpoolsa_rrnw.htm
I just found a bunch of links from very reputable sources indicating
swimmies are dangerous. You disagree. I challenge you to find any
statistics or reputable sources that say floaties or swimmies are safe
or good for kids. Besides, of course, the manufacturer of those items.
make some kids feel more confident than they truly are, and that can
cause them to get into a situation where drowning could happen. The
only thing that can prevent drowning is parent watching, and even then
that doesn't always work. I'll never forget the story of the little
girl who drowned a few years ago in the hot tub, with her mom right
there. The mom had some sort of seizure or something, and blacked out.
Baby died.
watching her children all the time, and that their pool is as safe is
possible, but accidents happen. And parents who rely upon swimmies to
help their children learn to swim are doing a great disservice to their
children. Water is dangerous, no child is water safe, no adult is water
safe. Lessons are not a guarantee that children will not drown. Even
parents watching is not a guarantee.
and few die. But that does not negate their danger.
Joylyn
> From: "joylyn" <joylyn@...>Yes, they are my feelings, but they are based on facts. I'm not the
>
> <<We had a walker too. We watched our child in it, and we knew it was
> dangerous, but we used it anyway. We made a choice to do so. If you
> want to use swimmies, fine. But, you should know, they are dangerous.
> They give the child a sense of power in the water they don't really
> have. >>
>
>
> Maybe it's my mood, maybe it's the way you seem to come across. I have a
> problem with you making a blatant statement about swimmies being
> dangerous.
> You pointed how you feel you think they give the child a false sense of
> security and also the parents. No facts really, just a feeling you have.
only one that "feels" this way. The red cross, the army, and the AAP
also agree with me. The last link was particularly good.
http://www.redcross.org/services/hss/tips/healthtips/safetywater.html#children
http://watersafety.usace.army.mil/safetytips.htm
from
http://www.aap.org/family/tipppool.htm
Do not let your child use air-filled "swimming aids" because they are
not a substitute for approved life vests and can be dangerous.
http://wy.essortment.com/childrenpoolsa_rrnw.htm
I just found a bunch of links from very reputable sources indicating
swimmies are dangerous. You disagree. I challenge you to find any
statistics or reputable sources that say floaties or swimmies are safe
or good for kids. Besides, of course, the manufacturer of those items.
>Actually, I would make that statement. I think that swim lessons do
>
> I have known children personally who have drowned in back yard pools. More
> than half of those children had swimming lessons and learned how to
> float if
> they ever fell into a pool. I certainly wouldn't make a statement about
> lessons being dangerous and giving a false sense of security to anyone.
make some kids feel more confident than they truly are, and that can
cause them to get into a situation where drowning could happen. The
only thing that can prevent drowning is parent watching, and even then
that doesn't always work. I'll never forget the story of the little
girl who drowned a few years ago in the hot tub, with her mom right
there. The mom had some sort of seizure or something, and blacked out.
Baby died.
> IThat is exactly my point. I have no doubt that Krusula is absolutely
> would state that no matter what the circumstances were, children should be
> watched by a pool or any kind of water.
watching her children all the time, and that their pool is as safe is
possible, but accidents happen. And parents who rely upon swimmies to
help their children learn to swim are doing a great disservice to their
children. Water is dangerous, no child is water safe, no adult is water
safe. Lessons are not a guarantee that children will not drown. Even
parents watching is not a guarantee.
>I'm sure that thousands and thousands of children each day wear swimmies
>
> None of my kids ever thought they could swim just because they had their
> swimmies on. None of my kids were ever not watched because they had their
> swimmies on. Yes some parents don't watch their kids. I do.
and few die. But that does not negate their danger.
Joylyn
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> And just for the record, I never thought walkers were *dangerous* either.
>
>
> Mary B
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/2004 10:26:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
joylyn@... writes:
I just found a bunch of links from very reputable sources indicating
swimmies are dangerous. You disagree. I challenge you to find any
statistics or reputable sources that say floaties or swimmies are safe
or good for kids.
================
Holly, the second best swimmer here (next to her dad) used to have various
kinds of flotation toys She knew the difference between playing and swimming
She wasn't hurt She wasn't misled or overconfident. She was never alone.
You won't find statistics or reputable sources that say unschooling is good
for kids. All we have are personal testimonials and a few kids who are doing
okay.
I bet there are more kids who have used floaties safely than there are who
have unschooled throughout all their school years with success.
So?
So unless what's being posted leads toward more trust and support of kids,
let's drop it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn@... writes:
I just found a bunch of links from very reputable sources indicating
swimmies are dangerous. You disagree. I challenge you to find any
statistics or reputable sources that say floaties or swimmies are safe
or good for kids.
================
Holly, the second best swimmer here (next to her dad) used to have various
kinds of flotation toys She knew the difference between playing and swimming
She wasn't hurt She wasn't misled or overconfident. She was never alone.
You won't find statistics or reputable sources that say unschooling is good
for kids. All we have are personal testimonials and a few kids who are doing
okay.
I bet there are more kids who have used floaties safely than there are who
have unschooled throughout all their school years with success.
So?
So unless what's being posted leads toward more trust and support of kids,
let's drop it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
I am thinking about signing seamus up for "swim lessons" just to give
him something to do with other kids. It never occurred to me to do so
for safety's sake. He loves loves loves water, and to swim. I don't
even know if he CAN swim, but he hasnt drowned yet. I think swimming
is on his list of most favorite things in the world. The apt we just
moved to has a pool, my sisters apt has a pool, my other brothers apt
has a pool, and there is a community pool. But where he developed his
love for swimming is at hotels. His paternal grandmother is a
historian and travels everywhere and seamus goes with her alot(either
with his dad or myself.) Everywhere he has every stayed (with the
exception of London)he has been in a hotel with a pool.
We tried water wings (referred to on the list as swimmies i guess? or
is that something different?)once, and they were really
uncomfortable, and affected his balance in a weird way. So when he
was little he would just hang onto me or his dad. And when he was oh
probably four or so we got one of those floating kick boards and that
was great because he could go the length of the pool but also let go
if he wanted to.
At the amusement park in cincy there is a huge "wave pool", i went
with a close friend, her baby, her son who is a year younger than
seamus, and seamus. While her son was still trying to get past the
first wave (he was scared), i couldnt even *find* seamus. Finally
noticed him waaaaay off near the deeper end. It was a little scary to
have lost him(helps that he has flaming red hair), but he was totally
fine doing somersaults in the water.
There is also a swim club here, and i think that might be more along
the lines of what he would want rather than "lessons", i think i'll
check that out too.
I think much of the skills seamus has learned, he has learned by
"doing." He was never taught how to ride a bike, he basically jumped
on and there he went. Other kids might be more comfortable with
lessons, if they don't naturally take to water.
Katherine
him something to do with other kids. It never occurred to me to do so
for safety's sake. He loves loves loves water, and to swim. I don't
even know if he CAN swim, but he hasnt drowned yet. I think swimming
is on his list of most favorite things in the world. The apt we just
moved to has a pool, my sisters apt has a pool, my other brothers apt
has a pool, and there is a community pool. But where he developed his
love for swimming is at hotels. His paternal grandmother is a
historian and travels everywhere and seamus goes with her alot(either
with his dad or myself.) Everywhere he has every stayed (with the
exception of London)he has been in a hotel with a pool.
We tried water wings (referred to on the list as swimmies i guess? or
is that something different?)once, and they were really
uncomfortable, and affected his balance in a weird way. So when he
was little he would just hang onto me or his dad. And when he was oh
probably four or so we got one of those floating kick boards and that
was great because he could go the length of the pool but also let go
if he wanted to.
At the amusement park in cincy there is a huge "wave pool", i went
with a close friend, her baby, her son who is a year younger than
seamus, and seamus. While her son was still trying to get past the
first wave (he was scared), i couldnt even *find* seamus. Finally
noticed him waaaaay off near the deeper end. It was a little scary to
have lost him(helps that he has flaming red hair), but he was totally
fine doing somersaults in the water.
There is also a swim club here, and i think that might be more along
the lines of what he would want rather than "lessons", i think i'll
check that out too.
I think much of the skills seamus has learned, he has learned by
"doing." He was never taught how to ride a bike, he basically jumped
on and there he went. Other kids might be more comfortable with
lessons, if they don't naturally take to water.
Katherine
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/2004 9:13:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
joylyn@... writes:
Yes, but not everyone does watch their children, all the time. I just
spent four hours at the pool, and I was the ONLY parent there who never
stopped watching the pool.
===========
So the danger with walkers or stairs or busy streets or crackers is mostly
children being unattended, right?
Given a worst-case scenario and someone needing to blame someone ELSE instead
of taking responsibility for their own parenting, it's dangerous for a
company to manufacture or sell or allow walkers or floaties. That's about business
and money. When someone wants to sue someone they "prove" in statistical ways
that the product is dangerous.
-=- All it takes is ten seconds next to water and a
child can drown. -=-
It takes less than that if they're UNDER the water, and way more than that if
they're not in the water at all.
Where does the ten seconds come from?
How long does it take in seconds for a kid standing near a street to be hit
by a car? It's not standing NEXT to the street, it's stepping in front of a
car. A child who's careful who is with a parent who is careful is safer than
those who are alone or whose parents are asleep.
The question, though, was whether swimming lessons were problematical in
terms of unschooling, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn@... writes:
Yes, but not everyone does watch their children, all the time. I just
spent four hours at the pool, and I was the ONLY parent there who never
stopped watching the pool.
===========
So the danger with walkers or stairs or busy streets or crackers is mostly
children being unattended, right?
Given a worst-case scenario and someone needing to blame someone ELSE instead
of taking responsibility for their own parenting, it's dangerous for a
company to manufacture or sell or allow walkers or floaties. That's about business
and money. When someone wants to sue someone they "prove" in statistical ways
that the product is dangerous.
-=- All it takes is ten seconds next to water and a
child can drown. -=-
It takes less than that if they're UNDER the water, and way more than that if
they're not in the water at all.
Where does the ten seconds come from?
How long does it take in seconds for a kid standing near a street to be hit
by a car? It's not standing NEXT to the street, it's stepping in front of a
car. A child who's careful who is with a parent who is careful is safer than
those who are alone or whose parents are asleep.
The question, though, was whether swimming lessons were problematical in
terms of unschooling, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On May 1, 2004, at 4:11 PM, joylyn wrote:
floaties AND sometimes a swimsuit that inflated around the middle.
Wearing floaties made it far more fun for them. It didn't mean I wasn't
right there watching them, that would just be dumb to depend on
floaties to keep them safe. It just made it possible for them to do
much more - to play a lot more fun games - in the pool.
As they kids learned to swim, they still put the floaties on most of
the time, but eventually they weren't even inflated and the kids pretty
soon just stopped bothering with them. It was their decision - they'd
ask me to blow them up for them and what happened was that over time
they stopped asking to have them inflated and then just gradually
stopped using them.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Swimmies are dangerous. They give kids a false sense of security,Alternative viewpoint. We have a pool in our backyard. My kids wore
> parents too! Kids who use them are most likely to drown, in my
> opinion. They do not understand how their body reacts with and floats
> in water. If they ever did fall in without their floaties they would
> be
> unable to deal with the water, as they would feel different in the
> water
> without the swimmies.
floaties AND sometimes a swimsuit that inflated around the middle.
Wearing floaties made it far more fun for them. It didn't mean I wasn't
right there watching them, that would just be dumb to depend on
floaties to keep them safe. It just made it possible for them to do
much more - to play a lot more fun games - in the pool.
As they kids learned to swim, they still put the floaties on most of
the time, but eventually they weren't even inflated and the kids pretty
soon just stopped bothering with them. It was their decision - they'd
ask me to blow them up for them and what happened was that over time
they stopped asking to have them inflated and then just gradually
stopped using them.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/2004 5:17:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jrossedd@... writes:
swim lessons, asked him if he wanted to, and he agreed. Each time class
renews (and this goes with just about everything:gymnastics, art class, drama,
etc.), I ask him if he wants to sign up again. He hasn't refused, yet, but if he
does, I don't see why I wouldn't agree to stop class-his decision, after all...
That's my story! :~)
Síocháin ar domhan,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jrossedd@... writes:
> Glad for any stories and conversation on this from unschoolers!I basically just waited until it was "about the time" for him to start taking
swim lessons, asked him if he wanted to, and he agreed. Each time class
renews (and this goes with just about everything:gymnastics, art class, drama,
etc.), I ask him if he wants to sign up again. He hasn't refused, yet, but if he
does, I don't see why I wouldn't agree to stop class-his decision, after all...
That's my story! :~)
Síocháin ar domhan,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/2004 5:29:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
joylyn@... writes:
Wish we had something like that around here! :~)
Síocháin ar domhan,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn@... writes:
> The director said "Nope, they need to beCool! How awesome for her AND her student! And her film class sounds awesome!
> 12," Then she noticed us waiting and said "oh wait, are you talking
> about Lexie volunteering. Yeah, she can, what hours can she do this,
> and for how long?"
Wish we had something like that around here! :~)
Síocháin ar domhan,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
You know, I forgot to mention that we do a lot of hotel pool swimming, and I
don't just rely on the swim lessons (which I sit on the sidelines and
observe), I also help him with different things when we swim together. My dad actually
was instrumental in getting him to enjoy getting his face wet. He had Wyl put
his arms around his neck, hangning down Grandad's back, told him what he was
going to do, had Wyl hold his breath, and then dove underwater with Wyl
piggy-backing along for the short, shallow dive (my dad is a fish, by the way! LOL)
Now, that is his favorite game! He also loves to push off from the edge toward
one of us (me, Daddy, Grandma or Grandaddy) and splash, flop, bounce, hop (he
thinks he's swimming) to us or from us to the edge of the pool. It helps him
with his "learning not to panic" and how to adjust when the distance was
farther than he thought. I'm not a good swimmer (but an excellent floater! LOL) and
thought that swim lessons might help him to learn the basics. He is a "no
fear" kind of child, and no matter how many times he got out a bit too deep in
the pool and scared himself before I helped him to the shallower water, he still
has not enough fear of the deep water to keep an eye on where it is or to
stay out of it-but he loves to be in the water. Hence the lessons. :~)
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't just rely on the swim lessons (which I sit on the sidelines and
observe), I also help him with different things when we swim together. My dad actually
was instrumental in getting him to enjoy getting his face wet. He had Wyl put
his arms around his neck, hangning down Grandad's back, told him what he was
going to do, had Wyl hold his breath, and then dove underwater with Wyl
piggy-backing along for the short, shallow dive (my dad is a fish, by the way! LOL)
Now, that is his favorite game! He also loves to push off from the edge toward
one of us (me, Daddy, Grandma or Grandaddy) and splash, flop, bounce, hop (he
thinks he's swimming) to us or from us to the edge of the pool. It helps him
with his "learning not to panic" and how to adjust when the distance was
farther than he thought. I'm not a good swimmer (but an excellent floater! LOL) and
thought that swim lessons might help him to learn the basics. He is a "no
fear" kind of child, and no matter how many times he got out a bit too deep in
the pool and scared himself before I helped him to the shallower water, he still
has not enough fear of the deep water to keep an eye on where it is or to
stay out of it-but he loves to be in the water. Hence the lessons. :~)
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/2/2004 2:37:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
The question, though, was whether swimming lessons were problematical in
terms of unschooling, I think.<<<<
I'll bite.
I think they *can* be. Depends on the instructor, the other kids, and the
child in question.
I'd shy away from an instructor who inadvertently (or advertently!) makes a
child fearful of the water. Other kids who are already fearful and would scare
my child. I'd take my child into consideration (duh!) and whether he'd get
anything out of it.
I asked Duncan last year whether he'd like to take swim lessons with his
friend, Clayton. He had been a guest one morning when Clayton had a lesson. Duncan
said no because he already knew how to do everything they were doing.
I already avoid freaky parents on the side who are constantly telling their
kids what to do and trying to get them to put their faces in the water or keep
them out of the deep end or whatever.
Both my boys learned (Duncan with swimmies; Cameron, without----just what
they preferred) just by being in the water a LOT. Neither has a gorgeous breast
stroke, but neither do I, after 7-8 years of childhood swim lessons.
And THAT's a strange phenomenon! Every year, I'd have to "relearn" how to
swim! That's why we had lessons every year----so my mother said. To "relearn" how
to swim. Neither of my boys "forgot" how to swim over the winter! Maybe I
just didn't *learn* it! <G>
I'd say that it's just like everything else----it depends. But a bad
instructor could do more damage than no lessons at all.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
The question, though, was whether swimming lessons were problematical in
terms of unschooling, I think.<<<<
I'll bite.
I think they *can* be. Depends on the instructor, the other kids, and the
child in question.
I'd shy away from an instructor who inadvertently (or advertently!) makes a
child fearful of the water. Other kids who are already fearful and would scare
my child. I'd take my child into consideration (duh!) and whether he'd get
anything out of it.
I asked Duncan last year whether he'd like to take swim lessons with his
friend, Clayton. He had been a guest one morning when Clayton had a lesson. Duncan
said no because he already knew how to do everything they were doing.
I already avoid freaky parents on the side who are constantly telling their
kids what to do and trying to get them to put their faces in the water or keep
them out of the deep end or whatever.
Both my boys learned (Duncan with swimmies; Cameron, without----just what
they preferred) just by being in the water a LOT. Neither has a gorgeous breast
stroke, but neither do I, after 7-8 years of childhood swim lessons.
And THAT's a strange phenomenon! Every year, I'd have to "relearn" how to
swim! That's why we had lessons every year----so my mother said. To "relearn" how
to swim. Neither of my boys "forgot" how to swim over the winter! Maybe I
just didn't *learn* it! <G>
I'd say that it's just like everything else----it depends. But a bad
instructor could do more damage than no lessons at all.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 5/2/04 12:24 AM, joylyn at joylyn@... wrote:
the steps. Does that mean walking is dangerous?
I don't think the problem is that *swimmies* can make kids overconfident in
their abilities in the water. Overconfidence can come from many sources
besides swimmies like personality or peers.
The problem is that swimmies can make *parents* overconfident about
children's abilities in the water and the parents are not as attentive as
they still need to be.
Information is better than fear. "Swimmies are dangerous" is fear. Swimmies
can make it look like kids can swim better than they can is good
information.
If a parent is looking at swimming as a good time for a relaxing break, then
they need to find other times to take the break they need since water time
is time for *more* attention.
Joyce
> I'm sure that thousands and thousands of children each day wear swimmiesAnd kids who are new walkers can be over confident about steps and fall down
> and few die. But that does not negate their danger.
the steps. Does that mean walking is dangerous?
I don't think the problem is that *swimmies* can make kids overconfident in
their abilities in the water. Overconfidence can come from many sources
besides swimmies like personality or peers.
The problem is that swimmies can make *parents* overconfident about
children's abilities in the water and the parents are not as attentive as
they still need to be.
Information is better than fear. "Swimmies are dangerous" is fear. Swimmies
can make it look like kids can swim better than they can is good
information.
If a parent is looking at swimming as a good time for a relaxing break, then
they need to find other times to take the break they need since water time
is time for *more* attention.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/2/2004 5:02:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Sanguinegirl83@... writes:
He is a "no
fear" kind of child, and no matter how many times he got out a bit too deep
in
the pool and scared himself before I helped him to the shallower water, he
still
has not enough fear of the deep water to keep an eye on where it is or to
stay out of it-but he loves to be in the water. Hence the lessons. :~)<<<<
But can he easily touch the bottom of the shallow end flat-footed with his
head out of the water?
If not, then it's all deep, and there shouldn't be an issue about deep vs.
shallow!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sanguinegirl83@... writes:
He is a "no
fear" kind of child, and no matter how many times he got out a bit too deep
in
the pool and scared himself before I helped him to the shallower water, he
still
has not enough fear of the deep water to keep an eye on where it is or to
stay out of it-but he loves to be in the water. Hence the lessons. :~)<<<<
But can he easily touch the bottom of the shallow end flat-footed with his
head out of the water?
If not, then it's all deep, and there shouldn't be an issue about deep vs.
shallow!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
hayes@... writes:
Kids enjoying swimming despite this danger is the challenge. How to cope? JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Water is dangerous to childrenJust what I was thinking. Stopping breath to the body is the danger.
> whether they wear swimmies or not -- the question is water
> education.
Kids enjoying swimming despite this danger is the challenge. How to cope? JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], joylyn <joylyn@e...>
wrote:
(as with so many things) it depends on the child. Some kids never
have any kind of safe attitude towards water, and swimmies can make
it safer for these kinds of kids. My daughter as a toddler would go
over to the deep end and just throw herself in (this was before she
ever had any kind of floatie device). Just because she sank to the
bottom and we had to plunge in and pull her out *every* time did not
deter her at all! Getting a floatie for her to wear was great. We
still watched her, of course, but now we had at least some time to
get to her before she was on the bottom of the pool.
That little boy that you saved might not have jumped into the deep
end *because* he thought he could swim, based on the fact that he was
wearing a floatie device. Maybe he was just the kind of kid that
habitually threw himself in the deep end and that's the reason his
mom had him in a floatie. Sometimes it's hard to say.
I think floaties are a tool. They can really help in some situations,
they can hinder in others. Just like a spatula can be used to flip
eggs or whack someone over the head. For our son, he was always so
cautious around the water, he never wore a floatie. Then when he
wanted to try to swim but was very scared of not being able to touch
the bottom, a floatie gave him more confidence to try the water out.
He wore it for a matter of months, then could swim. For our daughter
the daredevil, we've had a floatie on her since she could toddle (and
hurl herself into the deep end time after time). Now she's taking it
off for periods of time and swimming without it. I think it's been a
safe thing in her case, it wasn't necessary in my son's.
One other anecdote - I was at a lake with friends 2 years ago and
their toddler ran straight into the water. There was a big drop-off
and she started going down. Luckily, one of the moms dashed into the
water and caught her. Again, another child (like mine!) who seemed to
know no fear around water. She tried to do it again later. The mom
ended up putting her in a floatie the rest of the summer when we were
at the lake. If nothing else, when she ran into the water, she'd
float long enough for someone to get to her, instead of sinking into
the murk. I know for a fact that in her situation a floatie was the
farthest thing from dangerous. I think it really depends on how
they're used. The best safety device is a parent who pays attention
to their child!
wrote:
>But, you should know, they (swimmies) are dangerous.have.
> They give the child a sense of power in the water they don't really
>Joylyn, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I think
> Water is dangerous. Swimmies add to that danger.
(as with so many things) it depends on the child. Some kids never
have any kind of safe attitude towards water, and swimmies can make
it safer for these kinds of kids. My daughter as a toddler would go
over to the deep end and just throw herself in (this was before she
ever had any kind of floatie device). Just because she sank to the
bottom and we had to plunge in and pull her out *every* time did not
deter her at all! Getting a floatie for her to wear was great. We
still watched her, of course, but now we had at least some time to
get to her before she was on the bottom of the pool.
That little boy that you saved might not have jumped into the deep
end *because* he thought he could swim, based on the fact that he was
wearing a floatie device. Maybe he was just the kind of kid that
habitually threw himself in the deep end and that's the reason his
mom had him in a floatie. Sometimes it's hard to say.
I think floaties are a tool. They can really help in some situations,
they can hinder in others. Just like a spatula can be used to flip
eggs or whack someone over the head. For our son, he was always so
cautious around the water, he never wore a floatie. Then when he
wanted to try to swim but was very scared of not being able to touch
the bottom, a floatie gave him more confidence to try the water out.
He wore it for a matter of months, then could swim. For our daughter
the daredevil, we've had a floatie on her since she could toddle (and
hurl herself into the deep end time after time). Now she's taking it
off for periods of time and swimming without it. I think it's been a
safe thing in her case, it wasn't necessary in my son's.
One other anecdote - I was at a lake with friends 2 years ago and
their toddler ran straight into the water. There was a big drop-off
and she started going down. Luckily, one of the moms dashed into the
water and caught her. Again, another child (like mine!) who seemed to
know no fear around water. She tried to do it again later. The mom
ended up putting her in a floatie the rest of the summer when we were
at the lake. If nothing else, when she ran into the water, she'd
float long enough for someone to get to her, instead of sinking into
the murk. I know for a fact that in her situation a floatie was the
farthest thing from dangerous. I think it really depends on how
they're used. The best safety device is a parent who pays attention
to their child!