Violent toys
Kristi Hayes
Leo's point was a good one. Our children *are* learning all the time,
from everything around them. My kids are little. My oldest is 4. We
have discussed guns and violence at length. We have discussed the war
in Iraq. We have discussed multiple perspectives of these things. I
have a card-carrying-NRA FIL, a husband who supported going to war, my
own perspectives (yes, I took my kids to candlelight vigils with me) to
consider.
The fact is, unschooling doesn't mean we don't *teach* our kids, because
we are teaching them all the time. Each family has its own values to
impart on children. One of mine is the use of force only when
necessary, and that weapons are not toys. Would I let my kids play with
pretend cars? Sure. They're unlikely to confuse their hotwheels or
even a power jeep with a real vehicle. If I see them killing people
with the cars, such as Morgaine running over her Barbies, I step in.
Her best friend's grandmother was killed in a car accident last
Christmas eve. This affected her deeply, and we discuss it. I don't
object to cars. Neither do I object to hunting rifles and bows, though
I am a vegetarian. (My husband is not.) However, when I say I don't
want my children mistaking a toy gun for a real gun, I *do* mean just
that. My two year old son, my 4 year old daughter, will not necessarily
consider weight when playing with a gun. And furthermore, not all
weapons look like weapons. It is not common, but there are many
"fashion handguns" and other weapons out there. Here is one site for an
example; there are many others.
http://web.tiscali.it/ladiesweapons/weapons.html By the time my
children are old enough to easily discern the difference I doubt they
will still want cap-guns. Incidentally, they have done many studies
about children and guns. The most notable to me, and unfortunately I
don't have a reference any more, was one in which they put children in a
room with a real gun, then observed them. They interviewed parents, and
those who had taught their children a lot about guns and were certain
they wouldn't play with it were sadly surprised when their children did,
indeed, handle the gun. My instructions no more guarantee that my kids
will be safe when they see a gun than that they won't panic in a fire,
even though Morgaine's been instructed in both.
OTOH, I can do the best I can to live a life which reflects my values.
I'm sure many folks on this list are Christian, and teach their children
that Christ died on the cross as their savior, or likewise people from
other faiths. My feelings about violence, and consequently violent
toys, are likewise to me. I cannot and will not raise my kids in a
vacuum; they will be exposed to many ideas. My husband plays violent
video games. My daughter asks about them. She may eventually ask to
play. We'll discuss it then. If she asks for a toy gun or rifle, we'll
discuss that, too. The answer will be that she can make one. I'll help
her. I'll point out the fact she knows it's a toy, because she made it.
In the meantime, I do make choices for my kids. I choose the beds they
sleep in and make sure they are age-appropriate and safe, including
accommodating them in my own bed as infants and occasionally as they
grow. I choose the foods I bring into this house. I choose not to let
them watch "grownup shows" like CSI and Kingdom Hospital even though
they want to. There are lots of other things I choose that they learn
from; values of kindness when I let my friend and her three kids stay
here in our little trailer for a while, even though Morgaine really
didn't want to have them living here (and quite frankly, I really wasn't
sure I did either as I was expecting a baby any day), but we talked
about the fact that they had nowhere else to go because their daddy had
hurt them, and they had to move away from their house. In our little
trailer, this meant the three kids moved into Morgaine and Orion's room,
and my friend slept on the couch.
My choice to not allow violent toys into the home is basic to me. It
doesn't mean they can't use the "boffers" my husband keeps at my MIL's,
if they want. Both our parents have squirt-guns, and we do, too, but
honestly, I only keep the see-through ones here. I've been looking for
alternative summer water toys that function the same way without the
shape of guns. I choose my battles, both with my kids and my husband.
This is a worthy battle to me. Not because I think violent toys make
violent people, but for the reasons discussed above and more.
I do, however, appreciate much of the discussion that's gone on. It's
always good to get another perspective or three.
Kristi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
from everything around them. My kids are little. My oldest is 4. We
have discussed guns and violence at length. We have discussed the war
in Iraq. We have discussed multiple perspectives of these things. I
have a card-carrying-NRA FIL, a husband who supported going to war, my
own perspectives (yes, I took my kids to candlelight vigils with me) to
consider.
The fact is, unschooling doesn't mean we don't *teach* our kids, because
we are teaching them all the time. Each family has its own values to
impart on children. One of mine is the use of force only when
necessary, and that weapons are not toys. Would I let my kids play with
pretend cars? Sure. They're unlikely to confuse their hotwheels or
even a power jeep with a real vehicle. If I see them killing people
with the cars, such as Morgaine running over her Barbies, I step in.
Her best friend's grandmother was killed in a car accident last
Christmas eve. This affected her deeply, and we discuss it. I don't
object to cars. Neither do I object to hunting rifles and bows, though
I am a vegetarian. (My husband is not.) However, when I say I don't
want my children mistaking a toy gun for a real gun, I *do* mean just
that. My two year old son, my 4 year old daughter, will not necessarily
consider weight when playing with a gun. And furthermore, not all
weapons look like weapons. It is not common, but there are many
"fashion handguns" and other weapons out there. Here is one site for an
example; there are many others.
http://web.tiscali.it/ladiesweapons/weapons.html By the time my
children are old enough to easily discern the difference I doubt they
will still want cap-guns. Incidentally, they have done many studies
about children and guns. The most notable to me, and unfortunately I
don't have a reference any more, was one in which they put children in a
room with a real gun, then observed them. They interviewed parents, and
those who had taught their children a lot about guns and were certain
they wouldn't play with it were sadly surprised when their children did,
indeed, handle the gun. My instructions no more guarantee that my kids
will be safe when they see a gun than that they won't panic in a fire,
even though Morgaine's been instructed in both.
OTOH, I can do the best I can to live a life which reflects my values.
I'm sure many folks on this list are Christian, and teach their children
that Christ died on the cross as their savior, or likewise people from
other faiths. My feelings about violence, and consequently violent
toys, are likewise to me. I cannot and will not raise my kids in a
vacuum; they will be exposed to many ideas. My husband plays violent
video games. My daughter asks about them. She may eventually ask to
play. We'll discuss it then. If she asks for a toy gun or rifle, we'll
discuss that, too. The answer will be that she can make one. I'll help
her. I'll point out the fact she knows it's a toy, because she made it.
In the meantime, I do make choices for my kids. I choose the beds they
sleep in and make sure they are age-appropriate and safe, including
accommodating them in my own bed as infants and occasionally as they
grow. I choose the foods I bring into this house. I choose not to let
them watch "grownup shows" like CSI and Kingdom Hospital even though
they want to. There are lots of other things I choose that they learn
from; values of kindness when I let my friend and her three kids stay
here in our little trailer for a while, even though Morgaine really
didn't want to have them living here (and quite frankly, I really wasn't
sure I did either as I was expecting a baby any day), but we talked
about the fact that they had nowhere else to go because their daddy had
hurt them, and they had to move away from their house. In our little
trailer, this meant the three kids moved into Morgaine and Orion's room,
and my friend slept on the couch.
My choice to not allow violent toys into the home is basic to me. It
doesn't mean they can't use the "boffers" my husband keeps at my MIL's,
if they want. Both our parents have squirt-guns, and we do, too, but
honestly, I only keep the see-through ones here. I've been looking for
alternative summer water toys that function the same way without the
shape of guns. I choose my battles, both with my kids and my husband.
This is a worthy battle to me. Not because I think violent toys make
violent people, but for the reasons discussed above and more.
I do, however, appreciate much of the discussion that's gone on. It's
always good to get another perspective or three.
Kristi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/16/04 12:32:52 PM, hayes@... writes:
<< Each family has its own values to
impart on children. One of mine is the use of force only when
necessary, and that weapons are not toys. Would I let my kids play with
pretend cars? Sure. They're unlikely to confuse their hotwheels or
even a power jeep with a real vehicle. >>
-=-If I see them killing people
with the cars, such as Morgaine running over her Barbies, I step in.-=-
I doubt your children could kill people with toy cars even if they tried.
Please try to keep "killing people" and "playing with dolls" separate when
you write, and maybe when you think.
Kids are able to do it really easily. What is the difficulty some moms seem
to have?
Holly just told me another family she knows used to prevent all gunplay.
(BTW, one of those kids has hit Holly and thrown things at her, though our kids
have done nothing of the sort to theirs or others; AND... the mom used to
spank. And threaten to spank, in front of other people.)
One day, Holly says, years ago she was at their house and the boy was playing
with a gun. She didn't know where it came from. Maybe his dad got it for
him or maybe he found it in the park. (Holly's speculations.) The gun was
bright blue or orange, probably a water gun, Holly reports. She said they weren't
running around and being loud, just staying in one room. The mom had
company. (That seemed important enough for Holly to add to the account.) The mom
came in and said "You KNOW you're not supposed to be playing with guns" and
took it away from him, saying "How do you know that's not real?"
All the kids were clear that it wasn't real. All they could think was the
mom wasn't very bright and didn't have much faith in them if she wondered how
they could know it wasn't a real gun.
Sandra
<< Each family has its own values to
impart on children. One of mine is the use of force only when
necessary, and that weapons are not toys. Would I let my kids play with
pretend cars? Sure. They're unlikely to confuse their hotwheels or
even a power jeep with a real vehicle. >>
-=-If I see them killing people
with the cars, such as Morgaine running over her Barbies, I step in.-=-
I doubt your children could kill people with toy cars even if they tried.
Please try to keep "killing people" and "playing with dolls" separate when
you write, and maybe when you think.
Kids are able to do it really easily. What is the difficulty some moms seem
to have?
Holly just told me another family she knows used to prevent all gunplay.
(BTW, one of those kids has hit Holly and thrown things at her, though our kids
have done nothing of the sort to theirs or others; AND... the mom used to
spank. And threaten to spank, in front of other people.)
One day, Holly says, years ago she was at their house and the boy was playing
with a gun. She didn't know where it came from. Maybe his dad got it for
him or maybe he found it in the park. (Holly's speculations.) The gun was
bright blue or orange, probably a water gun, Holly reports. She said they weren't
running around and being loud, just staying in one room. The mom had
company. (That seemed important enough for Holly to add to the account.) The mom
came in and said "You KNOW you're not supposed to be playing with guns" and
took it away from him, saying "How do you know that's not real?"
All the kids were clear that it wasn't real. All they could think was the
mom wasn't very bright and didn't have much faith in them if she wondered how
they could know it wasn't a real gun.
Sandra
Deb Lewis
***If he wants to kill bad monsters say, I would engage
in a conversation "Why are the monsters bad? Are they
hurting you? Are they killing babies?"***
To a child a "monster" can be the embodiment of all things scary and bad.
But all things scary and bad in a childs world, not in an adults world.
The darkness is a little scary, they must not leave the yard(very
mysterious), never touch the stove, etc. There are scary things when
your little but they're not always the same things parents are scared of.
If we can give a name and shape to our fears we can control them.
Making a monster responsible for all bad and scary things lets us feel we
can in some way control those things, if we can control the monster.
I think a dialog like the one in your example is *more* disturbing than
the childs desire to kill a bad monster. To a child getting rid of a
bad monster is a solution to a problem. Before the dialog the monster
might just be the bad thing making noise in the basement or making you
feel a little insecure at night. After the dialog, the monster has
become something that's actively looking to harm you and maybe even kill
you.
Telling a kid their very thoughts are wrong or freaky is such an assault.
Mind control is not what unschooling is about and shouldn't be what
parenting is about. A kid can't hear that their fantasy play is wrong
or bad or freaky and not end up with shame and guilt.
Our kids don't deserve to be the receptacle of all our fears and terrors.
They have no responsibility to make us feel better about the world we
brought them into.
They have a responsibility to themselves, to learn and grow and find
solutions to their problems.
Filling them with shame and guilt and uncertainty is more damaging than
the kinds of play that have been described here. To be able to explore
the world, even the scary things, to be able to find out what scary or
troubling or fascinating things mean on a personal level in the safety of
the child's own home is the way children make sense of the world and get
control over their fears.
Deb L
in a conversation "Why are the monsters bad? Are they
hurting you? Are they killing babies?"***
To a child a "monster" can be the embodiment of all things scary and bad.
But all things scary and bad in a childs world, not in an adults world.
The darkness is a little scary, they must not leave the yard(very
mysterious), never touch the stove, etc. There are scary things when
your little but they're not always the same things parents are scared of.
If we can give a name and shape to our fears we can control them.
Making a monster responsible for all bad and scary things lets us feel we
can in some way control those things, if we can control the monster.
I think a dialog like the one in your example is *more* disturbing than
the childs desire to kill a bad monster. To a child getting rid of a
bad monster is a solution to a problem. Before the dialog the monster
might just be the bad thing making noise in the basement or making you
feel a little insecure at night. After the dialog, the monster has
become something that's actively looking to harm you and maybe even kill
you.
Telling a kid their very thoughts are wrong or freaky is such an assault.
Mind control is not what unschooling is about and shouldn't be what
parenting is about. A kid can't hear that their fantasy play is wrong
or bad or freaky and not end up with shame and guilt.
Our kids don't deserve to be the receptacle of all our fears and terrors.
They have no responsibility to make us feel better about the world we
brought them into.
They have a responsibility to themselves, to learn and grow and find
solutions to their problems.
Filling them with shame and guilt and uncertainty is more damaging than
the kinds of play that have been described here. To be able to explore
the world, even the scary things, to be able to find out what scary or
troubling or fascinating things mean on a personal level in the safety of
the child's own home is the way children make sense of the world and get
control over their fears.
Deb L
Kristi Hayes
From Joyce:
You and Leo are theorizing that preventing violent play will yeild
peaceful
children.
Let me first clarify tone and intent: this post is a clarification with
the intent of making myself understood. I am standing at the brink of
what I hope to be the long journey of unschooling with a preschooler
(and her baby brothers). Therefore, it is important to me that I make
myself clear as to those on this list because I would like to be part of
this online community - as with any relationship, I need to clarify
myself. Though you are all strangers now I expect to get to know at
least some of you over the next several years. So here is the
clarification:
I said clearly in a previous post (and this has been a long thread, I
know; it was likely easy to overlook) that I am not postulating that
violent toys and games make for violent children, nor that a
violence-free home will keep my children (or any children) from being
violent. My son is pulling hair; he carries dolls around by their hair.
It would be ridiculous to link the two. As I have said, this is simply
a matter of values, specifically, my spiritual values. I don't wish to
control my children or their play. My issue is not with violent TV
shows or video games, though at this young age I do place limits on
things that can be disturbing to my daughter (I know what is disturbing
to her by watching her daily actions and listening to her words). I
don't like them (the games and shows), but I understand they will be a
fact of our lives, esp. with a husband who is interested in them. I'm
not limiting violent play, but have a real problem with toys whose sole
intent is to emulate violence. Also, these are objects I can keep out
of the home without limiting my children's play. I could say much more
about this, but it's more than I'm willing to type 1-handed. (With
infant) Narrow minded? Perhaps. The discussion here has been
interesting. This may be one of those areas that grow with my children.
But as I've said, they have not expressed a want for them. Right now it
is an issue for me, not my kids. And if I change my mind about having
these toys in my home, I'd like it to be a choice *I* make with my kids;
not an issue I'd like to have created by a gift. Possibly controlling,
but certainly not impeding. As I've said before, if they want these
toys, they will make them. My son's friend was "shooting" with the
spray nozzle from our hose today. He didn't seem bothered that it
wasn't a toy gun.
Anyway, I'm going to withdraw from the discussion at this point. Since
my post began it I've felt compelled to participate but I've said (I
think) all that I have to say; I'll keep reading the thread though; some
interesting ideas in it.
Kristi
Mama to Isaac 6 wks, Orion 2, and Morgaine 4
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You and Leo are theorizing that preventing violent play will yeild
peaceful
children.
Let me first clarify tone and intent: this post is a clarification with
the intent of making myself understood. I am standing at the brink of
what I hope to be the long journey of unschooling with a preschooler
(and her baby brothers). Therefore, it is important to me that I make
myself clear as to those on this list because I would like to be part of
this online community - as with any relationship, I need to clarify
myself. Though you are all strangers now I expect to get to know at
least some of you over the next several years. So here is the
clarification:
I said clearly in a previous post (and this has been a long thread, I
know; it was likely easy to overlook) that I am not postulating that
violent toys and games make for violent children, nor that a
violence-free home will keep my children (or any children) from being
violent. My son is pulling hair; he carries dolls around by their hair.
It would be ridiculous to link the two. As I have said, this is simply
a matter of values, specifically, my spiritual values. I don't wish to
control my children or their play. My issue is not with violent TV
shows or video games, though at this young age I do place limits on
things that can be disturbing to my daughter (I know what is disturbing
to her by watching her daily actions and listening to her words). I
don't like them (the games and shows), but I understand they will be a
fact of our lives, esp. with a husband who is interested in them. I'm
not limiting violent play, but have a real problem with toys whose sole
intent is to emulate violence. Also, these are objects I can keep out
of the home without limiting my children's play. I could say much more
about this, but it's more than I'm willing to type 1-handed. (With
infant) Narrow minded? Perhaps. The discussion here has been
interesting. This may be one of those areas that grow with my children.
But as I've said, they have not expressed a want for them. Right now it
is an issue for me, not my kids. And if I change my mind about having
these toys in my home, I'd like it to be a choice *I* make with my kids;
not an issue I'd like to have created by a gift. Possibly controlling,
but certainly not impeding. As I've said before, if they want these
toys, they will make them. My son's friend was "shooting" with the
spray nozzle from our hose today. He didn't seem bothered that it
wasn't a toy gun.
Anyway, I'm going to withdraw from the discussion at this point. Since
my post began it I've felt compelled to participate but I've said (I
think) all that I have to say; I'll keep reading the thread though; some
interesting ideas in it.
Kristi
Mama to Isaac 6 wks, Orion 2, and Morgaine 4
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
--- In [email protected], "Kristi Hayes"
<hayes@m...> wrote:
your kids making the toys as opposed to store bought ones? I don't
think i've heard that position before, so i wonder if there is a
philosophy behind it? Just curious!:o)
Katherine
<hayes@m...> wrote:
>As I've said before, if they want theseI meant to ask you this before, but what is the difference between
> toys, they will make them.
your kids making the toys as opposed to store bought ones? I don't
think i've heard that position before, so i wonder if there is a
philosophy behind it? Just curious!:o)
Katherine
Susan Gallien
Stepping in here... by not buying them you are not endorsing them as something you want the child to have... by not stopping them from making them you are respecting their rights to their own thoughts. I never bought toy guns for my boys, and they all made them, from Lego, wood or just a pointed finger.
My three youngest are girls and they have bb guns to shoot targets. Guns aren't always about killing. If children live with guns around they need to know the safety aspects of them, using a bb gun with supervision is the perfect starting point, teaching first that a gun is always to be treated as though it was loaded.
We live on a farm and guns are used for killing for different reasons... swiftly dispatching an injured animal, frightening off or even killing predators and to kill an animal to be butchered. We sell from the farm and some of our customers butcher the animals here, to my way of thinking that is the least stressful end... head in a feed bucket happily eating then a well placed bullet kills instantly. I don't pretend for a minute that I like it, in fact I don't... some farmers wont allow animals to be butchered on the farm, it's cleaner to send off the animals in the truck... that I don't like either, maybe even less than killing them on the farm. I sometime think I wasn't cut out to be a farmer, but I do love our cows and without the calves as an income we could never have them here.
Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com
My three youngest are girls and they have bb guns to shoot targets. Guns aren't always about killing. If children live with guns around they need to know the safety aspects of them, using a bb gun with supervision is the perfect starting point, teaching first that a gun is always to be treated as though it was loaded.
We live on a farm and guns are used for killing for different reasons... swiftly dispatching an injured animal, frightening off or even killing predators and to kill an animal to be butchered. We sell from the farm and some of our customers butcher the animals here, to my way of thinking that is the least stressful end... head in a feed bucket happily eating then a well placed bullet kills instantly. I don't pretend for a minute that I like it, in fact I don't... some farmers wont allow animals to be butchered on the farm, it's cleaner to send off the animals in the truck... that I don't like either, maybe even less than killing them on the farm. I sometime think I wasn't cut out to be a farmer, but I do love our cows and without the calves as an income we could never have them here.
Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com
----- Original Message -----
From: queenjane555
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 11:30 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Violent toys
--- In [email protected], "Kristi Hayes"
<hayes@m...> wrote:
>As I've said before, if they want these
> toys, they will make them.
I meant to ask you this before, but what is the difference between
your kids making the toys as opposed to store bought ones? I don't
think i've heard that position before, so i wonder if there is a
philosophy behind it? Just curious!:o)
Katherine
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristi Hayes
--- In [email protected], "Kristi Hayes"
<hayes@m...> wrote:
respecting their rights to their own thoughts.
Sue hit on my own answer pretty well. The other piece is the "if they
want them" piece. Gunplay is not something I want to suggest to them.
It is not play I want to initiate. When I buy, or others buy, them
toys, those toys are frequently a springboard for their play. Other
times they ignore the toys. However, by having the toy it is akin to a
suggestion. I hope that makes sense the way I'm saying it.
If they decide they would like to play "guns," or a game involving guns,
or "swords" or other games, and they wish to create these tools, I won't
tell them, "No; you can't play that game." I wouldn't trash their
creations or demand they be taken apart. I probably wouldn't jump in
and say, "Wow, I love what you're making," but if they wanted my opinion
I'd comment on something like the innovation or some specific idea that
went into the toy's creation. Ie "I like the idea you had to . " If
they asked me to play with them, I'd likely decline. If they asked me
to help, I'd ask what they wanted help with and help them.
I'd originally written a lot more, but decided to erase it since it's
mostly repeating other things I've already written. Let me know if you
want more clarification.
Kristi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<hayes@m...> wrote:
>As I've said before, if they want theseyour kids making the toys as opposed to store bought ones?
> toys, they will make them.
>Katherine: what is the difference between
>Sue: by not buying them you are not endorsing them as something youwant the child to have... by not stopping them from making them you are
respecting their rights to their own thoughts.
Sue hit on my own answer pretty well. The other piece is the "if they
want them" piece. Gunplay is not something I want to suggest to them.
It is not play I want to initiate. When I buy, or others buy, them
toys, those toys are frequently a springboard for their play. Other
times they ignore the toys. However, by having the toy it is akin to a
suggestion. I hope that makes sense the way I'm saying it.
If they decide they would like to play "guns," or a game involving guns,
or "swords" or other games, and they wish to create these tools, I won't
tell them, "No; you can't play that game." I wouldn't trash their
creations or demand they be taken apart. I probably wouldn't jump in
and say, "Wow, I love what you're making," but if they wanted my opinion
I'd comment on something like the innovation or some specific idea that
went into the toy's creation. Ie "I like the idea you had to . " If
they asked me to play with them, I'd likely decline. If they asked me
to help, I'd ask what they wanted help with and help them.
I'd originally written a lot more, but decided to erase it since it's
mostly repeating other things I've already written. Let me know if you
want more clarification.
Kristi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]