transcripts
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/13/04 9:12:50 PM, sjogy@... writes:
<< I'm on a list about going from homeschool to college and at least according
to most of those folks' experience, the above is not true. It seems that
most places do expect a transcript of some kind. Most hsers make them up
themselves - it seems like a personal decision as to how much you make it
look like a regular school's or not. >>
Well they want a high school transcript, which is automatic for people who go
to high school. What they expect of general applicants and what they will
actually get from unschoolers won't be the same thing.
"Transcript" just basically means a written record, for one thing. The
record of unschooling won't look like a list of courses with grades. When they DO
look like that, they're fraudulent. If I were an admissions officer I would
care more about honesty and integrity than "a transcript."
The current issue of People Magazine has an article about people (not
homeschoolers) who have done special things when they applied to college, and in each
of the listed instances it helped. Weird things.
Sandra
<< I'm on a list about going from homeschool to college and at least according
to most of those folks' experience, the above is not true. It seems that
most places do expect a transcript of some kind. Most hsers make them up
themselves - it seems like a personal decision as to how much you make it
look like a regular school's or not. >>
Well they want a high school transcript, which is automatic for people who go
to high school. What they expect of general applicants and what they will
actually get from unschoolers won't be the same thing.
"Transcript" just basically means a written record, for one thing. The
record of unschooling won't look like a list of courses with grades. When they DO
look like that, they're fraudulent. If I were an admissions officer I would
care more about honesty and integrity than "a transcript."
The current issue of People Magazine has an article about people (not
homeschoolers) who have done special things when they applied to college, and in each
of the listed instances it helped. Weird things.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/2004 12:09:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
"Transcript" just basically means a written record, for one thing. The
record of unschooling won't look like a list of courses with grades. When
they DO
look like that, they're fraudulent. If I were an admissions officer I would
care more about honesty and integrity than "a transcript."
But if a college insists on transcripts they COULD look like what is standard
and really not be fraudulent. Aren't grades in school subjective? They
reflect only the areas the teacher chooses to test or grade on. So IF you were to
do transcripts for an unschooled child and you graded them as fully
successful in the things you list, wouldn't that be an accurate statement of how you
feel as a parent, the "teacher" in the schools sense of the word? You could use
the list of requirements that the college/university accepts and "grade" your
child on what you feel is appropriate accomplishment.
Or you could spend some time talking to how ever many people it takes to
explain "unschooling" a term they may not have heard of before and make phone
calls and write letters and have visits until someone recognizes the uniqueness of
your child and agrees to admit them to their school.
Probably even more ways but sometimes just providing what they ask for in a
direct sort of way is easiest and perfectly acceptable.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
"Transcript" just basically means a written record, for one thing. The
record of unschooling won't look like a list of courses with grades. When
they DO
look like that, they're fraudulent. If I were an admissions officer I would
care more about honesty and integrity than "a transcript."
But if a college insists on transcripts they COULD look like what is standard
and really not be fraudulent. Aren't grades in school subjective? They
reflect only the areas the teacher chooses to test or grade on. So IF you were to
do transcripts for an unschooled child and you graded them as fully
successful in the things you list, wouldn't that be an accurate statement of how you
feel as a parent, the "teacher" in the schools sense of the word? You could use
the list of requirements that the college/university accepts and "grade" your
child on what you feel is appropriate accomplishment.
Or you could spend some time talking to how ever many people it takes to
explain "unschooling" a term they may not have heard of before and make phone
calls and write letters and have visits until someone recognizes the uniqueness of
your child and agrees to admit them to their school.
Probably even more ways but sometimes just providing what they ask for in a
direct sort of way is easiest and perfectly acceptable.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***They reflect only the areas the teacher chooses to test or grade on.
***
People unschool because they reject teaching, testing and grading.
***IF you were to do transcripts for an unschooled child and you graded
them as fully
successful in the things you list, wouldn't that be an accurate statement
of how you
feel as a parent, the "teacher" in the schools sense of the word?***
It would be a hypocritical participation in a process unschoolers believe
to be harmful and unnecessary.
***Or you could spend some time talking to how ever many people it takes
to
explain "unschooling" a term they may not have heard of before and make
phone
calls and write letters and have visits until someone recognizes the
uniqueness of
your child and agrees to admit them to their school. ***
Or find a solution that maintains the integrity of the unschooling
philosophy and helps future unschoolers in the process.
***sometimes just providing what they ask for in a direct sort of way is
easiest and perfectly acceptable.***
People who've stepped away from mainstream ideas about kids and learning
aren't going to find it easier or acceptable to lie and compromise their
beliefs.
Deb L
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the
depth of our answers."
~Carl Sagan~
***
People unschool because they reject teaching, testing and grading.
***IF you were to do transcripts for an unschooled child and you graded
them as fully
successful in the things you list, wouldn't that be an accurate statement
of how you
feel as a parent, the "teacher" in the schools sense of the word?***
It would be a hypocritical participation in a process unschoolers believe
to be harmful and unnecessary.
***Or you could spend some time talking to how ever many people it takes
to
explain "unschooling" a term they may not have heard of before and make
phone
calls and write letters and have visits until someone recognizes the
uniqueness of
your child and agrees to admit them to their school. ***
Or find a solution that maintains the integrity of the unschooling
philosophy and helps future unschoolers in the process.
***sometimes just providing what they ask for in a direct sort of way is
easiest and perfectly acceptable.***
People who've stepped away from mainstream ideas about kids and learning
aren't going to find it easier or acceptable to lie and compromise their
beliefs.
Deb L
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the
depth of our answers."
~Carl Sagan~
J. Stauffer
<< It would be a hypocritical participation in a process unschoolers believe
Doesn't it depend on what the teen wants to do? Most schools are very open
to "alternative" students, some aren't at all. Depending on the teen's
plans, they might want to attend a school that isn't open to "unschooling
philosophies."
If my teen wanted to go to that school, I would most definitely, but as
honestly as I possibly can, come up with whatever types of forms would help
them gain entry.
Is my plan to do a transcript? No. Do I think one will be necessary? No.
Would I gladly do one to help my teen reach their dream? In a heartbeat.
I personally am not willing to sacrifice my child on the alter of
philosophical dogma.
Julie S.
> to be harmful and unnecessary. >>This is very harsh.
Doesn't it depend on what the teen wants to do? Most schools are very open
to "alternative" students, some aren't at all. Depending on the teen's
plans, they might want to attend a school that isn't open to "unschooling
philosophies."
If my teen wanted to go to that school, I would most definitely, but as
honestly as I possibly can, come up with whatever types of forms would help
them gain entry.
Is my plan to do a transcript? No. Do I think one will be necessary? No.
Would I gladly do one to help my teen reach their dream? In a heartbeat.
I personally am not willing to sacrifice my child on the alter of
philosophical dogma.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deb Lewis" <ddzimlew@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] transcripts
> ***They reflect only the areas the teacher chooses to test or grade on.
> ***
>
> People unschool because they reject teaching, testing and grading.
>
> ***IF you were to do transcripts for an unschooled child and you graded
> them as fully
> successful in the things you list, wouldn't that be an accurate statement
> of how you
> feel as a parent, the "teacher" in the schools sense of the word?***
>
> It would be a hypocritical participation in a process unschoolers believe
> to be harmful and unnecessary.
>
> ***Or you could spend some time talking to how ever many people it takes
> to
> explain "unschooling" a term they may not have heard of before and make
> phone
> calls and write letters and have visits until someone recognizes the
> uniqueness of
> your child and agrees to admit them to their school. ***
>
> Or find a solution that maintains the integrity of the unschooling
> philosophy and helps future unschoolers in the process.
>
> ***sometimes just providing what they ask for in a direct sort of way is
> easiest and perfectly acceptable.***
>
> People who've stepped away from mainstream ideas about kids and learning
> aren't going to find it easier or acceptable to lie and compromise their
> beliefs.
>
> Deb L
>
> "We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the
> depth of our answers."
> ~Carl Sagan~
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Deb Lewis
***This is very harsh.***
I don't think it's harsher than advice to lie and fake transcripts.
More people are finding ways into college without them.
More colleges are accepting students without transcripts.
Those improvements didn't come about by unschoolers lying and faking
transcripts, and
no one will be helped if unschoolers or homeschoolers gain a reputation
for cheating.
***I personally am not willing to sacrifice my child on the alter of
philosophical dogma.***
I didn't suggest you should. I didn't even know there was an alter, but
then, I'm an ignorant atheist.
I'm suggesting unschoolers are smart enough and creative enough to get
what they want without compromising their principles. If faking
transcripts isn't one of the things an unschooler on this list would find
compromising, then my opinion won't mean diddly squat.
Deb Lewis
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the
depth of our answers."
~Carl Sagan~
I don't think it's harsher than advice to lie and fake transcripts.
More people are finding ways into college without them.
More colleges are accepting students without transcripts.
Those improvements didn't come about by unschoolers lying and faking
transcripts, and
no one will be helped if unschoolers or homeschoolers gain a reputation
for cheating.
***I personally am not willing to sacrifice my child on the alter of
philosophical dogma.***
I didn't suggest you should. I didn't even know there was an alter, but
then, I'm an ignorant atheist.
I'm suggesting unschoolers are smart enough and creative enough to get
what they want without compromising their principles. If faking
transcripts isn't one of the things an unschooler on this list would find
compromising, then my opinion won't mean diddly squat.
Deb Lewis
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the
depth of our answers."
~Carl Sagan~
pam sorooshian
On Apr 14, 2004, at 7:47 AM, J. Stauffer wrote:
that if an unschooled kid made up a transcript that made it look like
they'd taken classes and gotten grades, and if he found out later that
it was all made up, that they'd consider the kid had gotten in
fraudulently and they'd evict him from the school. He said he wanted
the truth about what the kid had been busy doing during those years,
not something made up. He said that courses listed and graded by a
homeschooling parent didn't mean much to him anyway because ALL
homeschooling parents pretty much give their kids all "A's."
AND he said he'd be FAR more likely to take a close look at a kid
without a traditional transcript, too.
When we chose to unschool, we chose to NOT school and that meant we
don't get the trappings of school. So - to later make up something that
implies that we DID school, that is clearly dishonest. I'd far rather
have my kid never go to college then to go based on a complete
fabrication like that.
But it really is not a choice of "lie or miss out" - to create a
transcript that describes what the child REALLY did, that is honest and
can be pretty wonderful, is very possible. It doesn't have to list
courses he didn't take with grades he didn't earn and it doesn't have
to be done under the pretense that he "did school."
If you ask them, colleges will say, "Yes, he must have a transcript."
But the transcript can very often be a narrative, not a course/grade
listing. Even when they want it in a more traditional format, it can be
without grades, just a list of subjects that the kid has spent time
learning something about during the previous few years. It certainly
does not have to be a course list divided into semesters with credits
and grades EVEN if the college says that is what they want, when they
actually get the application, they'll review it. IF the student has
high SAT or ACT scores, they will barely look at it.
There ARE universities that will not take homeschoolers based on
coursework at all - unschoolers or otherwise. University of California
is one of those. They have coursework that is required and it has to be
pre-certified that it meets their requirements. This means they have to
have, in advance, approved the textbooks and subject matter for the
courses. Most public schools have had their courses approved and some
private schools. But there is no way an unschooler is going to qualify
based on "coursework". Still, unschoolers get into UCLA and Berkeley
and other UC's all the time. They often do it based on high SAT scores
and they also do it based on community college coursework. And all
schools have a "special admissions" category.
When you step outside the mainstream, it is not honest to suddenly jump
into the middle of the river and pretend you've been swimming along
with everybody else all those years. And, it is the nonmainstream
activities that will get a child noticed anyway - pretending to have
done coursework just like everybody else makes the kid look just like
everybody else. Not an advantage for getting into a prestigious
university and not necessary.
-pam
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> If my teen wanted to go to that school, I would most definitely, but asI talked to the admissions officer at Stanford University. He told me
> honestly as I possibly can, come up with whatever types of forms would
> help
> them gain entry.
>
> Is my plan to do a transcript? No. Do I think one will be necessary?
> No.
> Would I gladly do one to help my teen reach their dream? In a
> heartbeat.
that if an unschooled kid made up a transcript that made it look like
they'd taken classes and gotten grades, and if he found out later that
it was all made up, that they'd consider the kid had gotten in
fraudulently and they'd evict him from the school. He said he wanted
the truth about what the kid had been busy doing during those years,
not something made up. He said that courses listed and graded by a
homeschooling parent didn't mean much to him anyway because ALL
homeschooling parents pretty much give their kids all "A's."
AND he said he'd be FAR more likely to take a close look at a kid
without a traditional transcript, too.
When we chose to unschool, we chose to NOT school and that meant we
don't get the trappings of school. So - to later make up something that
implies that we DID school, that is clearly dishonest. I'd far rather
have my kid never go to college then to go based on a complete
fabrication like that.
But it really is not a choice of "lie or miss out" - to create a
transcript that describes what the child REALLY did, that is honest and
can be pretty wonderful, is very possible. It doesn't have to list
courses he didn't take with grades he didn't earn and it doesn't have
to be done under the pretense that he "did school."
If you ask them, colleges will say, "Yes, he must have a transcript."
But the transcript can very often be a narrative, not a course/grade
listing. Even when they want it in a more traditional format, it can be
without grades, just a list of subjects that the kid has spent time
learning something about during the previous few years. It certainly
does not have to be a course list divided into semesters with credits
and grades EVEN if the college says that is what they want, when they
actually get the application, they'll review it. IF the student has
high SAT or ACT scores, they will barely look at it.
There ARE universities that will not take homeschoolers based on
coursework at all - unschoolers or otherwise. University of California
is one of those. They have coursework that is required and it has to be
pre-certified that it meets their requirements. This means they have to
have, in advance, approved the textbooks and subject matter for the
courses. Most public schools have had their courses approved and some
private schools. But there is no way an unschooler is going to qualify
based on "coursework". Still, unschoolers get into UCLA and Berkeley
and other UC's all the time. They often do it based on high SAT scores
and they also do it based on community college coursework. And all
schools have a "special admissions" category.
When you step outside the mainstream, it is not honest to suddenly jump
into the middle of the river and pretend you've been swimming along
with everybody else all those years. And, it is the nonmainstream
activities that will get a child noticed anyway - pretending to have
done coursework just like everybody else makes the kid look just like
everybody else. Not an advantage for getting into a prestigious
university and not necessary.
-pam
>National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
J. Stauffer
<< I don't think it's harsher than advice to lie and fake transcripts.>>
Nobody said to lie or fake. What was suggested is that the parent is the
"teacher" and she can choose what skills and content areas she wishes to use
to "assess" her "student". There is a HUGE range between "no transcripts"
and "lying and cheating."
I have had to do this numerous times here in the Bible belt where school
grades and report cards are rewarded in totally unrelated areas, like
gymnastics team or karate.
My transcript was a narrative, the kind used in some schools, and was
mastery-based. I didn't say "Math--A". Perhaps this is the "lying and
cheating" transcript to which you referred.
I said that 'Adriane raises dairy goats and the paperwork required her to
use the following mathematical skills: Addition with decimals, adding and
subtracting fractions, long division...." No lying, no cheating, but a
transcript nonetheless.
I'm sure I chose Adriane's better skills to highlight (I didn't mention
spelling) because as the "teacher" I got to choose the things I thought were
"important enough" to assess. Spelling didn't make the top ten <grin>.
I guess I could have simply told her coach that we unschool and I am
philosophically opposed to transcripts but it wouldn't have served Adriane's
purpose which was to get a free slushie for a good report card.
I don't see this as any different than talking about how in theory rewards
and punishments are bad for kids, but in practice paying Billy $5 to sit
through a concert that you really want to attend and he would just as soon
miss.
Theory is very clean and easily delineated. Life tends to get messy and the
lines blur.
Julie S.
Nobody said to lie or fake. What was suggested is that the parent is the
"teacher" and she can choose what skills and content areas she wishes to use
to "assess" her "student". There is a HUGE range between "no transcripts"
and "lying and cheating."
I have had to do this numerous times here in the Bible belt where school
grades and report cards are rewarded in totally unrelated areas, like
gymnastics team or karate.
My transcript was a narrative, the kind used in some schools, and was
mastery-based. I didn't say "Math--A". Perhaps this is the "lying and
cheating" transcript to which you referred.
I said that 'Adriane raises dairy goats and the paperwork required her to
use the following mathematical skills: Addition with decimals, adding and
subtracting fractions, long division...." No lying, no cheating, but a
transcript nonetheless.
I'm sure I chose Adriane's better skills to highlight (I didn't mention
spelling) because as the "teacher" I got to choose the things I thought were
"important enough" to assess. Spelling didn't make the top ten <grin>.
I guess I could have simply told her coach that we unschool and I am
philosophically opposed to transcripts but it wouldn't have served Adriane's
purpose which was to get a free slushie for a good report card.
I don't see this as any different than talking about how in theory rewards
and punishments are bad for kids, but in practice paying Billy $5 to sit
through a concert that you really want to attend and he would just as soon
miss.
Theory is very clean and easily delineated. Life tends to get messy and the
lines blur.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deb Lewis" <ddzimlew@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] transcripts
> ***This is very harsh.***
>
> I don't think it's harsher than advice to lie and fake transcripts.
>
> More people are finding ways into college without them.
> More colleges are accepting students without transcripts.
>
> Those improvements didn't come about by unschoolers lying and faking
> transcripts, and
> no one will be helped if unschoolers or homeschoolers gain a reputation
> for cheating.
>
> ***I personally am not willing to sacrifice my child on the alter of
> philosophical dogma.***
>
> I didn't suggest you should. I didn't even know there was an alter, but
> then, I'm an ignorant atheist.
>
> I'm suggesting unschoolers are smart enough and creative enough to get
> what they want without compromising their principles. If faking
> transcripts isn't one of the things an unschooler on this list would find
> compromising, then my opinion won't mean diddly squat.
>
> Deb Lewis
> "We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the
> depth of our answers."
> ~Carl Sagan~
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<But it really is not a choice of "lie or miss out" - to create a
Julie S.
> transcript that describes what the child REALLY did, that is honest andYea, what she said <grin>.
> can be pretty wonderful, is very possible.>>>>
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] transcripts
>
> On Apr 14, 2004, at 7:47 AM, J. Stauffer wrote:
>
> > If my teen wanted to go to that school, I would most definitely, but as
> > honestly as I possibly can, come up with whatever types of forms would
> > help
> > them gain entry.
> >
> > Is my plan to do a transcript? No. Do I think one will be necessary?
> > No.
> > Would I gladly do one to help my teen reach their dream? In a
> > heartbeat.
>
> I talked to the admissions officer at Stanford University. He told me
> that if an unschooled kid made up a transcript that made it look like
> they'd taken classes and gotten grades, and if he found out later that
> it was all made up, that they'd consider the kid had gotten in
> fraudulently and they'd evict him from the school. He said he wanted
> the truth about what the kid had been busy doing during those years,
> not something made up. He said that courses listed and graded by a
> homeschooling parent didn't mean much to him anyway because ALL
> homeschooling parents pretty much give their kids all "A's."
>
> AND he said he'd be FAR more likely to take a close look at a kid
> without a traditional transcript, too.
>
> When we chose to unschool, we chose to NOT school and that meant we
> don't get the trappings of school. So - to later make up something that
> implies that we DID school, that is clearly dishonest. I'd far rather
> have my kid never go to college then to go based on a complete
> fabrication like that.
>
> But it really is not a choice of "lie or miss out" - to create a
> transcript that describes what the child REALLY did, that is honest and
> can be pretty wonderful, is very possible. It doesn't have to list
> courses he didn't take with grades he didn't earn and it doesn't have
> to be done under the pretense that he "did school."
>
> If you ask them, colleges will say, "Yes, he must have a transcript."
> But the transcript can very often be a narrative, not a course/grade
> listing. Even when they want it in a more traditional format, it can be
> without grades, just a list of subjects that the kid has spent time
> learning something about during the previous few years. It certainly
> does not have to be a course list divided into semesters with credits
> and grades EVEN if the college says that is what they want, when they
> actually get the application, they'll review it. IF the student has
> high SAT or ACT scores, they will barely look at it.
>
> There ARE universities that will not take homeschoolers based on
> coursework at all - unschoolers or otherwise. University of California
> is one of those. They have coursework that is required and it has to be
> pre-certified that it meets their requirements. This means they have to
> have, in advance, approved the textbooks and subject matter for the
> courses. Most public schools have had their courses approved and some
> private schools. But there is no way an unschooler is going to qualify
> based on "coursework". Still, unschoolers get into UCLA and Berkeley
> and other UC's all the time. They often do it based on high SAT scores
> and they also do it based on community college coursework. And all
> schools have a "special admissions" category.
>
> When you step outside the mainstream, it is not honest to suddenly jump
> into the middle of the river and pretend you've been swimming along
> with everybody else all those years. And, it is the nonmainstream
> activities that will get a child noticed anyway - pretending to have
> done coursework just like everybody else makes the kid look just like
> everybody else. Not an advantage for getting into a prestigious
> university and not necessary.
>
> -pam
> >
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Deb Lewis
***Nobody said to lie or fake.***
If an unschooled kid never took a test or got a grade, and a parent
writes a transcript as if she had done that's dishonest.
***My transcript was a narrative, the kind used in some schools, and was
mastery-based. I didn't say "Math--A". Perhaps this is the "lying and
cheating" transcript to which you referred.***
Zactly.
Deb L
If an unschooled kid never took a test or got a grade, and a parent
writes a transcript as if she had done that's dishonest.
***My transcript was a narrative, the kind used in some schools, and was
mastery-based. I didn't say "Math--A". Perhaps this is the "lying and
cheating" transcript to which you referred.***
Zactly.
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/2004 10:50:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
People who've stepped away from mainstream ideas about kids and learning
compromise. Transcripts can be perfectly morally done by a parent. No one said
to say you sat through three years of advanced mathematics or four years of an
English class.
Much like Julie said, you can simply write a "transcript" of what your child
DID accomplish in the years that prepared them for the
College/University/School they are attempting to get into. Things that YOU feel would make them an
asset to the program. After all, that's what teachers and counselors do all
the time. You go to the teacher/counselor/person who is most likely to give you
a glowing review and recommendation right? Who better than a parent to
provide glowing comments on a wonderful child?
I didn't think it important that I add "if your child hasn't had four years
of German/Latin/Spanish, don't say they've had it. I simply meant that use
what your child knows and highlight it in a way to make it attractive to the
school they are looking for admission into.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
People who've stepped away from mainstream ideas about kids and learning
> aren't going to find it easier or acceptable to lie and compromise theirAh, again words are being twisted, I NEVER implied that anyone LIE or to
> beliefs.
>
> Deb L
compromise. Transcripts can be perfectly morally done by a parent. No one said
to say you sat through three years of advanced mathematics or four years of an
English class.
Much like Julie said, you can simply write a "transcript" of what your child
DID accomplish in the years that prepared them for the
College/University/School they are attempting to get into. Things that YOU feel would make them an
asset to the program. After all, that's what teachers and counselors do all
the time. You go to the teacher/counselor/person who is most likely to give you
a glowing review and recommendation right? Who better than a parent to
provide glowing comments on a wonderful child?
I didn't think it important that I add "if your child hasn't had four years
of German/Latin/Spanish, don't say they've had it. I simply meant that use
what your child knows and highlight it in a way to make it attractive to the
school they are looking for admission into.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***Ah, again words are being twisted, ***
You're changing your story.
***I NEVER implied that anyone LIE***
You said as a child's "teacher" ( is that the truth?) a parent could
"grade" their unschooled child. If a kid's never had grades, claiming
she did is a lie.
***Much like Julie said, you can simply write a "transcript" of what your
child
DID accomplish in the years that prepared them for the
College/University/School they are attempting to get into. ***
And that's NOT what you said. You said giving them what they ask for is
easy and acceptable.
You did not describe anything remotely like what Julie did, you said
supplying grades for a transcript was ok. Julie described a perfectly
reasonable unschooling approach to the situation. You, in fact,
stressed how difficult it would be to describe unschooling.
Deb
You're changing your story.
***I NEVER implied that anyone LIE***
You said as a child's "teacher" ( is that the truth?) a parent could
"grade" their unschooled child. If a kid's never had grades, claiming
she did is a lie.
***Much like Julie said, you can simply write a "transcript" of what your
child
DID accomplish in the years that prepared them for the
College/University/School they are attempting to get into. ***
And that's NOT what you said. You said giving them what they ask for is
easy and acceptable.
You did not describe anything remotely like what Julie did, you said
supplying grades for a transcript was ok. Julie described a perfectly
reasonable unschooling approach to the situation. You, in fact,
stressed how difficult it would be to describe unschooling.
Deb
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/04 8:50:37 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< << It would be a hypocritical participation in a process unschoolers
believe
-=-Doesn't it depend on what the teen wants to do? -=-
If what my child wants to do involves a lack of honest integrity, he'll have
to do it without my assistance.
-=- Most schools are very open
to "alternative" students, some aren't at all. Depending on the teen's
plans, they might want to attend a school that isn't open to "unschooling
philosophies."-=-
I doubt there is one that is entirely unwilling to consider a bright,
creative individual. "Bright and creative" aren't going to be shown by a
traditional-looking made-up transcript.
And IF a school flatly refuses to consider someone who was not traditionally
schooled, well huh! Too late. We all could've just sent our kids to public
school, right? They'd all have transcripts, those who lived and didn't drop
out.
-=-I personally am not willing to sacrifice my child on the alter of
philosophical dogma.-=-
Altar of philosophical dogma?
Anyone who has unschooled has already made a philosophical decision.
Anyone who is willing to crown their unschooling with a fib (small or large)
has made another philosophical decision.
Where is the sacrifice of a child in being honest?
Sandra
<< << It would be a hypocritical participation in a process unschoolers
believe
> to be harmful and unnecessary. >>-=-This is very harsh.
-=-Doesn't it depend on what the teen wants to do? -=-
If what my child wants to do involves a lack of honest integrity, he'll have
to do it without my assistance.
-=- Most schools are very open
to "alternative" students, some aren't at all. Depending on the teen's
plans, they might want to attend a school that isn't open to "unschooling
philosophies."-=-
I doubt there is one that is entirely unwilling to consider a bright,
creative individual. "Bright and creative" aren't going to be shown by a
traditional-looking made-up transcript.
And IF a school flatly refuses to consider someone who was not traditionally
schooled, well huh! Too late. We all could've just sent our kids to public
school, right? They'd all have transcripts, those who lived and didn't drop
out.
-=-I personally am not willing to sacrifice my child on the alter of
philosophical dogma.-=-
Altar of philosophical dogma?
Anyone who has unschooled has already made a philosophical decision.
Anyone who is willing to crown their unschooling with a fib (small or large)
has made another philosophical decision.
Where is the sacrifice of a child in being honest?
Sandra
Kristi Hayes
Is this off-topic? If it is, please say so
I try to be purposeful, or somewhat so, about the toys my kids have.
Sure, a lot of it is stuff I wouldnt consider learning toys, etc.,
but I have a problem including toys that are violent such as guns,
swords, green army men. My thought is that if they want these toys they
can fashion them from sticks, bats, green rocks, or whatever. It is one
way I have of sharing nonviolent values w/my kids.
Do any of you have similar values? How did you address it with family
and friends? It hasnt been an issue w/my girl but I expect, based on
giving of vague aunts and uncles to other boys in the family, that with
this birthday (#2) or next it will be an issue. Ive spread the word as
best I can, but if such a gift is given, how might I approach it w/out
coming off as rude and irrational?
On a broader note, does it much matter if one has a lot of learning
toys around the house vs. toys like electronic VTech toys? (My familys
favorite gifts.) Im wondering if I should start constructing a
different environment or just wait until they ask for these learning
toys (tinkertoys, etc.)
Thanks for any thoughts or advice!
Kristi
Semi-crunchy unschooling mom to Morgaine 4 ½, Orion 2, and Isaac 5 wks
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I try to be purposeful, or somewhat so, about the toys my kids have.
Sure, a lot of it is stuff I wouldnt consider learning toys, etc.,
but I have a problem including toys that are violent such as guns,
swords, green army men. My thought is that if they want these toys they
can fashion them from sticks, bats, green rocks, or whatever. It is one
way I have of sharing nonviolent values w/my kids.
Do any of you have similar values? How did you address it with family
and friends? It hasnt been an issue w/my girl but I expect, based on
giving of vague aunts and uncles to other boys in the family, that with
this birthday (#2) or next it will be an issue. Ive spread the word as
best I can, but if such a gift is given, how might I approach it w/out
coming off as rude and irrational?
On a broader note, does it much matter if one has a lot of learning
toys around the house vs. toys like electronic VTech toys? (My familys
favorite gifts.) Im wondering if I should start constructing a
different environment or just wait until they ask for these learning
toys (tinkertoys, etc.)
Thanks for any thoughts or advice!
Kristi
Semi-crunchy unschooling mom to Morgaine 4 ½, Orion 2, and Isaac 5 wks
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/04 9:31:47 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< More people are finding ways into college without them.
More colleges are accepting students without transcripts.
<<Those improvements didn't come about by unschoolers lying and faking
transcripts, and
no one will be helped if unschoolers or homeschoolers gain a reputation
for cheating. >>
VERY true.
Admissions officers and all kinds of people everywhere are gradually learning
that alternatives exist and can be fantastic. Why not help with that
instead of hindering it?
-=- I can respect different points of view about why a family might
choose
this or that for themselves, including a parent's view that for HER family it
would be dishonest, just as it might be a matter of conscience not to
register or to submit annual evalautions to the school system.
-=- But this can be carried past that point of personal conscience and
become moralizing against parents who see it differently, as has happened
with
charter schooling and virtual schooling.-=-
We don't have to agree here. Different points of view are being expressed.
If a transcript is honest, that is not dishonest. I recommended describing
unschooling in prose, not with a list of classes, credits and grades. If
someone knowingly creates the illusion that a child took a chemistry class and "got
an A" (or a B or a D, it doesn't matter) when there was no formal chemistry
instruction whatsoever, that is fraud. And it could reflect badly on other
unschoolers in the future.
That's not moralism. It's an objection to illegality. I don't think the
mother will go to hell, but I think she could make my life worse later, AND I
believe that it sets a bad example for othed on a list of which I'm part owner
(without the counter-opinion being offered).
-=- When it's suggested that moms just take their kids' tests and do
their
homework for them, to keep school off their backs, we didn't see moralizing
about dishonesty and lies and complete fabrications.-=-
I don't remember that being seriously proposed. I remember recommendations
of not timing tests, or answering kids' questions, and I remember one
recommendation that if the dad wanted to see workbooks, the mom could help the child
get that over with to get on to better things. If someone were to serious make
those recommendations and press them, I would be glad to say "why not just be
honest"?
When New Mexico required a calendar showing which 180 days would be school
days with each homeschooling letter of intent, one year I made a calendar. One
year I said "Same as APS." The third year I lightly photocopied our first
year's and wrote over it that it was important to me to model honesty for my
children, and we had no days off from learning, but our "schoolyear" was 365 days.
They cared no more or less about that than they had the other two ways.
If honesty is as good as dishonesty, then it's a better choice.
That's not moralizing. It's logic and practicality.
Sandra
<< More people are finding ways into college without them.
More colleges are accepting students without transcripts.
<<Those improvements didn't come about by unschoolers lying and faking
transcripts, and
no one will be helped if unschoolers or homeschoolers gain a reputation
for cheating. >>
VERY true.
Admissions officers and all kinds of people everywhere are gradually learning
that alternatives exist and can be fantastic. Why not help with that
instead of hindering it?
-=- I can respect different points of view about why a family might
choose
this or that for themselves, including a parent's view that for HER family it
would be dishonest, just as it might be a matter of conscience not to
register or to submit annual evalautions to the school system.
-=- But this can be carried past that point of personal conscience and
become moralizing against parents who see it differently, as has happened
with
charter schooling and virtual schooling.-=-
We don't have to agree here. Different points of view are being expressed.
If a transcript is honest, that is not dishonest. I recommended describing
unschooling in prose, not with a list of classes, credits and grades. If
someone knowingly creates the illusion that a child took a chemistry class and "got
an A" (or a B or a D, it doesn't matter) when there was no formal chemistry
instruction whatsoever, that is fraud. And it could reflect badly on other
unschoolers in the future.
That's not moralism. It's an objection to illegality. I don't think the
mother will go to hell, but I think she could make my life worse later, AND I
believe that it sets a bad example for othed on a list of which I'm part owner
(without the counter-opinion being offered).
-=- When it's suggested that moms just take their kids' tests and do
their
homework for them, to keep school off their backs, we didn't see moralizing
about dishonesty and lies and complete fabrications.-=-
I don't remember that being seriously proposed. I remember recommendations
of not timing tests, or answering kids' questions, and I remember one
recommendation that if the dad wanted to see workbooks, the mom could help the child
get that over with to get on to better things. If someone were to serious make
those recommendations and press them, I would be glad to say "why not just be
honest"?
When New Mexico required a calendar showing which 180 days would be school
days with each homeschooling letter of intent, one year I made a calendar. One
year I said "Same as APS." The third year I lightly photocopied our first
year's and wrote over it that it was important to me to model honesty for my
children, and we had no days off from learning, but our "schoolyear" was 365 days.
They cared no more or less about that than they had the other two ways.
If honesty is as good as dishonesty, then it's a better choice.
That's not moralizing. It's logic and practicality.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/04 12:43:53 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< There is a HUGE range between "no transcripts"
and "lying and cheating."
-=-My transcript was a narrative, the kind used in some schools, and was
mastery-based. I didn't say "Math--A". Perhaps this is the "lying and
cheating" transcript to which you referred.-=-
Exactly. The later, made to look like an accredited high school transcript,
with four English credits, three math, two science, four history... that is in
MY mind dishonest.
A narrative transcript, or a chart, or a breakdown of volunteer work by year
in resume format, those would seem honest and good.
-=-
I guess I could have simply told her coach that we unschool and I am
philosophically opposed to transcripts but it wouldn't have served Adriane's
purpose which was to get a free slushie for a good report card.-=-
Wouldn't buying a slushie have been less trouble than making a transcript?
-=-I don't see this as any different than talking about how in theory rewards
and punishments are bad for kids, but in practice paying Billy $5 to sit
through a concert that you really want to attend and he would just as soon
miss.
-=-Theory is very clean and easily delineated. Life tends to get messy and
the
lines blur.-=-
Principles that are strongly held don't blur very easily.
Bribing a kid to sit through something boring for an hour has the direct
result that the mom gets her concert and the kid gets his cash.
Who benefited from the slushie situation? Slushes are 89 cents or so, I
think. The mom got nothing much. The coach was reinforced for having a policy
that discriminates against kids whose talent isn't academic, and against
unschoolers.
Sandra
<< There is a HUGE range between "no transcripts"
and "lying and cheating."
>>It seemed some of that range was being discussed.
-=-My transcript was a narrative, the kind used in some schools, and was
mastery-based. I didn't say "Math--A". Perhaps this is the "lying and
cheating" transcript to which you referred.-=-
Exactly. The later, made to look like an accredited high school transcript,
with four English credits, three math, two science, four history... that is in
MY mind dishonest.
A narrative transcript, or a chart, or a breakdown of volunteer work by year
in resume format, those would seem honest and good.
-=-
I guess I could have simply told her coach that we unschool and I am
philosophically opposed to transcripts but it wouldn't have served Adriane's
purpose which was to get a free slushie for a good report card.-=-
Wouldn't buying a slushie have been less trouble than making a transcript?
-=-I don't see this as any different than talking about how in theory rewards
and punishments are bad for kids, but in practice paying Billy $5 to sit
through a concert that you really want to attend and he would just as soon
miss.
-=-Theory is very clean and easily delineated. Life tends to get messy and
the
lines blur.-=-
Principles that are strongly held don't blur very easily.
Bribing a kid to sit through something boring for an hour has the direct
result that the mom gets her concert and the kid gets his cash.
Who benefited from the slushie situation? Slushes are 89 cents or so, I
think. The mom got nothing much. The coach was reinforced for having a policy
that discriminates against kids whose talent isn't academic, and against
unschoolers.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/04 2:21:22 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< Who better than a parent to
provide glowing comments on a wonderful child? >>
Well, when the purpose is to have an objective assessment, ANYone would be
better than a parent.
-=-you can simply write a "transcript" of what your child
DID accomplish in the years that prepared them for the
College/University/School they are attempting to get into. Things that YOU
feel would make them an
asset to the program. -=-
Oh. If that's all you meant, you misled with your words.
Several people had already recommended ways to make honest information
available, but you wrote, quoted me MAKING that recommendation, and said "BUT..."
"But if a college insists on transcripts they COULD look like what is
standard
and really not be fraudulent. Aren't grades in school subjective? "
No one twisted your words.
You first wrote
-=-You could use
the list of requirements that the college/university accepts and "grade" your
child on what you feel is appropriate accomplishment.-=-
and later said
-=-I didn't think it important that I add "if your child hasn't had four
years
of German/Latin/Spanish, don't say they've had it. -=-
If they didn't have four years of history or English, same fraudulence
problem.
Please don't recommend dishonesty on this list. There are other lists that
might be more tolerant of it. Thanks.
Sandra
<< Who better than a parent to
provide glowing comments on a wonderful child? >>
Well, when the purpose is to have an objective assessment, ANYone would be
better than a parent.
-=-you can simply write a "transcript" of what your child
DID accomplish in the years that prepared them for the
College/University/School they are attempting to get into. Things that YOU
feel would make them an
asset to the program. -=-
Oh. If that's all you meant, you misled with your words.
Several people had already recommended ways to make honest information
available, but you wrote, quoted me MAKING that recommendation, and said "BUT..."
"But if a college insists on transcripts they COULD look like what is
standard
and really not be fraudulent. Aren't grades in school subjective? "
No one twisted your words.
You first wrote
-=-You could use
the list of requirements that the college/university accepts and "grade" your
child on what you feel is appropriate accomplishment.-=-
and later said
-=-I didn't think it important that I add "if your child hasn't had four
years
of German/Latin/Spanish, don't say they've had it. -=-
If they didn't have four years of history or English, same fraudulence
problem.
Please don't recommend dishonesty on this list. There are other lists that
might be more tolerant of it. Thanks.
Sandra
J. Stauffer
<<< Wouldn't buying a slushie have been less trouble than making a
transcript?>>>>
It would have been for me. But for Adriane who is the only homeschooler she
knows that isn't extremely conservative, sometimes she just wants to do what
the other kids are doing. Her gym is next door to Sonic and the coach goes
over during their warm down and the kids have them all together at the end.
<<<Who benefited from the slushie situation?>>>
My child did. It didn't break my moral bank and she was happy.
And just for the record, having the parent fill out the tests for kids to
keep the schools off their back has been recommended on this list in what
seemed a serious manner to me more than a few times.
Julie S.
transcript?>>>>
It would have been for me. But for Adriane who is the only homeschooler she
knows that isn't extremely conservative, sometimes she just wants to do what
the other kids are doing. Her gym is next door to Sonic and the coach goes
over during their warm down and the kids have them all together at the end.
<<<Who benefited from the slushie situation?>>>
My child did. It didn't break my moral bank and she was happy.
And just for the record, having the parent fill out the tests for kids to
keep the schools off their back has been recommended on this list in what
seemed a serious manner to me more than a few times.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] transcripts
>
> In a message dated 4/14/04 12:43:53 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
>
> << There is a HUGE range between "no transcripts"
>
> and "lying and cheating."
>
> >>
>
> It seemed some of that range was being discussed.
>
> -=-My transcript was a narrative, the kind used in some schools, and was
>
> mastery-based. I didn't say "Math--A". Perhaps this is the "lying and
>
> cheating" transcript to which you referred.-=-
>
> Exactly. The later, made to look like an accredited high school
transcript,
> with four English credits, three math, two science, four history... that
is in
> MY mind dishonest.
>
> A narrative transcript, or a chart, or a breakdown of volunteer work by
year
> in resume format, those would seem honest and good.
>
> -=-
>
> I guess I could have simply told her coach that we unschool and I am
>
> philosophically opposed to transcripts but it wouldn't have served
Adriane's
>
> purpose which was to get a free slushie for a good report card.-=-
>
> Wouldn't buying a slushie have been less trouble than making a transcript?
>
> -=-I don't see this as any different than talking about how in theory
rewards
>
> and punishments are bad for kids, but in practice paying Billy $5 to sit
>
> through a concert that you really want to attend and he would just as soon
>
> miss.
>
>
> -=-Theory is very clean and easily delineated. Life tends to get messy
and
> the
>
> lines blur.-=-
>
> Principles that are strongly held don't blur very easily.
>
> Bribing a kid to sit through something boring for an hour has the direct
> result that the mom gets her concert and the kid gets his cash.
>
> Who benefited from the slushie situation? Slushes are 89 cents or so, I
> think. The mom got nothing much. The coach was reinforced for having a
policy
> that discriminates against kids whose talent isn't academic, and against
> unschoolers.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<Please don't recommend dishonesty on this list. There are other lists
that
kid's questions when you are not supposed to talk during a test dishonest?
I'm having trouble with where the line is in this discussion.
Julie S.
that
> might be more tolerant of it. Thanks.>>>>I'm sorry, but isn't not timing a timed test dishonest? Isn't answering a
kid's questions when you are not supposed to talk during a test dishonest?
I'm having trouble with where the line is in this discussion.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] transcripts
>
> In a message dated 4/14/04 2:21:22 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
>
> << Who better than a parent to
> provide glowing comments on a wonderful child? >>
>
> Well, when the purpose is to have an objective assessment, ANYone would be
> better than a parent.
>
> -=-you can simply write a "transcript" of what your child
> DID accomplish in the years that prepared them for the
> College/University/School they are attempting to get into. Things that
YOU
> feel would make them an
> asset to the program. -=-
>
> Oh. If that's all you meant, you misled with your words.
>
> Several people had already recommended ways to make honest information
> available, but you wrote, quoted me MAKING that recommendation, and said
"BUT..."
>
> "But if a college insists on transcripts they COULD look like what is
> standard
> and really not be fraudulent. Aren't grades in school subjective? "
>
> No one twisted your words.
>
> You first wrote
>
> -=-You could use
> the list of requirements that the college/university accepts and "grade"
your
> child on what you feel is appropriate accomplishment.-=-
>
> and later said
>
>
> -=-I didn't think it important that I add "if your child hasn't had four
> years
> of German/Latin/Spanish, don't say they've had it. -=-
>
> If they didn't have four years of history or English, same fraudulence
> problem.
>
> Please don't recommend dishonesty on this list. There are other lists
that
> might be more tolerant of it. Thanks.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/04 5:19:59 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< I'm sorry, but isn't not timing a timed test dishonest? >>
Only if you're trying to prove something with a high score.
If what you want is to have a score that you and your child are absolutely
certain is INvalid, then "dishonest" isn't an issue.
If a family cheats and gets a perfect high score, that sucks nine ways. But
to invalidate with a middling, not impressive, not frightening, not valid
score is just tampering without a victim.
-=-Isn't answering a
kid's questions when you are not supposed to talk during a test dishonest?-=-
You're not supposed to talk if you're taking the standardized test the
standard way for the standard purpose.
My recommendations aren't new, and they've been here a while:
http://sandradodd.com/tests
I don't recommend helping them. I just recommend doing what it takes to make
sure the tester and testee both know it's not a measure of the child's value
or intelligence or knowledge.
Sandra
<< I'm sorry, but isn't not timing a timed test dishonest? >>
Only if you're trying to prove something with a high score.
If what you want is to have a score that you and your child are absolutely
certain is INvalid, then "dishonest" isn't an issue.
If a family cheats and gets a perfect high score, that sucks nine ways. But
to invalidate with a middling, not impressive, not frightening, not valid
score is just tampering without a victim.
-=-Isn't answering a
kid's questions when you are not supposed to talk during a test dishonest?-=-
You're not supposed to talk if you're taking the standardized test the
standard way for the standard purpose.
My recommendations aren't new, and they've been here a while:
http://sandradodd.com/tests
I don't recommend helping them. I just recommend doing what it takes to make
sure the tester and testee both know it's not a measure of the child's value
or intelligence or knowledge.
Sandra
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
or do the homework, without a qualm?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Am I misremembering whose advice it was that the parent take the test
> -=-Doesn't it depend on what the teen wants to do? -=-
>
> If what my child wants to do involves a lack of honest integrity, he'll have
>
> to do it without my assistance.
>
or do the homework, without a qualm?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
transcripts with real learning but artifically academic form was to make sure
the child knew he was educated enough to get into college, would that fit this
rationale? Would it matter to the answer if the child didn't matriculate
after being accepted, or or if he only audited courses and didn't pursue a
"credential?" Or is it somehow fraudulent no matter what? JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't recommend helping them. I just recommend doing what it takes toWrapping my mind around this -- so if the purpose of dummying up some
> make
> sure the tester and testee both know it's not a measure of the child's value
>
> or intelligence or knowledge.
>
transcripts with real learning but artifically academic form was to make sure
the child knew he was educated enough to get into college, would that fit this
rationale? Would it matter to the answer if the child didn't matriculate
after being accepted, or or if he only audited courses and didn't pursue a
"credential?" Or is it somehow fraudulent no matter what? JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/04 5:52:20 PM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< Am I misremembering whose advice it was that the parent take the
test
or do the homework, without a qualm?
-=-Wrapping my mind around this -- so if the purpose of dummying up some
transcripts with real learning but artifically academic form was to make sure
the child knew he was educated enough to get into college, would that fit
this
rationale? -=-
I wouldn't do it under any circumstances, so I'm not sure why you put that
question after a quote from me.
-=-Would it matter to the answer if the child didn't matriculate
after being accepted, or or if he only audited courses and didn't pursue a
"credential?" Or is it somehow fraudulent no matter what? -=-
I don't believe lying is a good idea at all.
If I helped a kid goof up a standardized test and someone from the testing
company asked me point blank "Did you administer this test according to the
directions?" I would say, "No, I didn't, but the state law has been fulfilled and
you got your $35 and we don't intend to use those scores for anything on this
earth. B'bye."
When I've suggested that people who are afraid not to register but don't want
to register can fill out the form, get it notarized and make copies for their
relatives and neighbors but not mail the form, I've never said "and then lie
and say you sent it." I say "If the state asks you, don't lie. Just say 'I
have a copy; I'll send it to you.'"
People have gone that route but never has anyone actually been asked. But by
New Mexico law it's not even a misdemeanor. It's a request from the state to
comply, and if a person sent a paper notorized months before, nobody at the
filing-desk would give a darn. They would assume they'd just misfiled the
first one. No emotion, no victim, no harm, no evil.
-=- Not so. I was objecting to the false accusation of lying, based on
personal prejudice.-=-
Whether Mother Teresa or Richard Nixon had advocated lying in my presence, I
would object. Moreso, even, if it were in my house or on a list for which I
had a responsibility.
Your prejudice or whose?
I have never advocated lying.
Sandra
<< Am I misremembering whose advice it was that the parent take the
test
or do the homework, without a qualm?
>>BIGtime.
-=-Wrapping my mind around this -- so if the purpose of dummying up some
transcripts with real learning but artifically academic form was to make sure
the child knew he was educated enough to get into college, would that fit
this
rationale? -=-
I wouldn't do it under any circumstances, so I'm not sure why you put that
question after a quote from me.
-=-Would it matter to the answer if the child didn't matriculate
after being accepted, or or if he only audited courses and didn't pursue a
"credential?" Or is it somehow fraudulent no matter what? -=-
I don't believe lying is a good idea at all.
If I helped a kid goof up a standardized test and someone from the testing
company asked me point blank "Did you administer this test according to the
directions?" I would say, "No, I didn't, but the state law has been fulfilled and
you got your $35 and we don't intend to use those scores for anything on this
earth. B'bye."
When I've suggested that people who are afraid not to register but don't want
to register can fill out the form, get it notarized and make copies for their
relatives and neighbors but not mail the form, I've never said "and then lie
and say you sent it." I say "If the state asks you, don't lie. Just say 'I
have a copy; I'll send it to you.'"
People have gone that route but never has anyone actually been asked. But by
New Mexico law it's not even a misdemeanor. It's a request from the state to
comply, and if a person sent a paper notorized months before, nobody at the
filing-desk would give a darn. They would assume they'd just misfiled the
first one. No emotion, no victim, no harm, no evil.
-=- Not so. I was objecting to the false accusation of lying, based on
personal prejudice.-=-
Whether Mother Teresa or Richard Nixon had advocated lying in my presence, I
would object. Moreso, even, if it were in my house or on a list for which I
had a responsibility.
Your prejudice or whose?
I have never advocated lying.
Sandra
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
THEM liars. IAnd I haven't done either one.
The prejudice I meant was that of people who view as lying all
academic transcripts as a "form," or standardized tests or grades as a form -- I
don't like those form either and believe there are all kinds of legal, moral,
useful ways around them, nevertheless the form itself is not automatically a lie.
Not even for unschoolers imo.
But there are plenty of legitimate criticisms and alternatives to both
that we could discuss, which is all I meant to suggest. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I advocate neither lying nor pointing fingers at others and calling
> -=- Not so. I was objecting to the false accusation of lying, based on
> personal prejudice.-=-
>
> Whether Mother Teresa or Richard Nixon had advocated lying in my presence, I
>
> would object. Moreso, even, if it were in my house or on a list for which I
>
> had a responsibility.
>
> Your prejudice or whose?
>
> I have never advocated lying.
>
>
THEM liars. IAnd I haven't done either one.
The prejudice I meant was that of people who view as lying all
academic transcripts as a "form," or standardized tests or grades as a form -- I
don't like those form either and believe there are all kinds of legal, moral,
useful ways around them, nevertheless the form itself is not automatically a lie.
Not even for unschoolers imo.
But there are plenty of legitimate criticisms and alternatives to both
that we could discuss, which is all I meant to suggest. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
Kristi writes:
I try to be purposeful, or somewhat so, about the toys my kids have.
Sure, a lot of it is stuff I wouldn't consider "learning" toys, etc.,
but I have a problem including toys that are "violent" such as guns,
swords, green army men. My thought is that if they want these toys they
can fashion them from sticks, bats, green rocks, or whatever. It is one
way I have of sharing nonviolent values w/my kids.
Do any of you have similar values? How did you address it with family
and friends? It hasn't been an issue w/my girl but I expect, based on
giving of vague aunts and uncles to other boys in the family, that with
this birthday (#2) or next it will be an issue. I've spread the word as
best I can, but if such a gift is given, how might I approach it w/out
coming off as rude and irrational?
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I try to be purposeful, or somewhat so, about the toys my kids have.
Sure, a lot of it is stuff I wouldn't consider "learning" toys, etc.,
but I have a problem including toys that are "violent" such as guns,
swords, green army men. My thought is that if they want these toys they
can fashion them from sticks, bats, green rocks, or whatever. It is one
way I have of sharing nonviolent values w/my kids.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I haven't run into a gun issue yet but my 2 yr old loves to sword fight. Play is how they sort out life and issues and violence is an issue in life. I have great memories of hours of GIJoe, lots of wrestling with my sister and brother and stupid dueling games that involving getting whipped with bungee cords if you were too slow (My husband complains that my playful punches really hurt. He didn't grow up with brothers :) ). If your kids are asking for swords and guns are you refusing? You may also be showing your predjudice and a narrow view of these items. Swords have a captivating history. Bow technology played a big role in european history (check out the English long bow), guns are often used as valuable tools with no violent connotation (that's the view I grew up with - you shot deer with a gun to feed the family ). Are your kids being denied a wider view of these things because of your ideas about them?
Do any of you have similar values? How did you address it with family
and friends? It hasn't been an issue w/my girl but I expect, based on
giving of vague aunts and uncles to other boys in the family, that with
this birthday (#2) or next it will be an issue. I've spread the word as
best I can, but if such a gift is given, how might I approach it w/out
coming off as rude and irrational?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Learn about it. I think 'violent' toys are no different then any other issue in unschooling. And for me unschooling has never meant shutting things out but rather learning all I can about them so there's balance. You may not have that balance right now in regards to swords and guns. Maybe some reading on the art of swordmaking. How about the physics involved? And why the variety?If swords are just gloryfied sharp sticks why would one person or culture require a wide curved blade, another a long, slim one, another a huge thing that you need both hands and strong shoulders for? What about the roles that guns have played in history. Gun barrels grew to ridiculous amounts here in NA when natives would trade a stack of beaver pelts that had to match the length of a rifle...a good reflection of the lack of respect shown to a native trading partners in the last century. Are guns and sword really just about violence or is that just how you see them. My interest in swords and bows has brought me to history, Shakespeare, science, politics, etc. Not much violence as a result though.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 4/14/04 5:13 PM, Kristi Hayes at hayes@... wrote:
desirable.
I watched my sister in law go through this. She didn't want guns in her
home. But her son was really really interested and turned anything into a
gun. Eventually she relented and she would tell him to only point at
imaginary bad guys.
He now has a BB gun and rifle and enjoys paint ball. Exactly what you don't
want to hear ;-) And yet he's a very peaceful kid. He has no interest in
hunting. When he and my daughter were watching an anime together with 5 guys
controlling huge armored robots, he chose the pacifist as his favorite
character, the one who didn't want to kill.
Play can be a way of exploring something kids will be doing for real in the
future. But it can also be a way of safely playing out a desire for
something they *don't* want to do in real life. By killing pretend people,
it helps them reinforce the ideas why they wouldn't want to kill real
people.
your nonviolent values: You are using your natural power over kids -- or
planning to -- to stop them from exploring something that (perhaps)
interests them. It's the same method that people with guns do. They want
someone to do something that the other person doesn't want to do, so they
use power over them to make them.
against your values, there isn't a way to graciously refuse a gift. Either
the gift giver is oblivious to your message or they're choosing to ignore it
because they think you're wrong. If your son has no interest in the guns he
receives, you can say thanks and list it on eBay the next day or return it
to Toys R Us for store credit if you've left it in the package.
If he does appreicate the gifts of weapons, then see above.
educational and non-educational but to divide them into things they're
interested in and things they aren't (yet) interested in.
The most learningful toys are the ones the kids play with :-)
things that might interest them. Get more of what they like, but keep other
things that might intrigue them running through their lives. If they enjoy
building with cardboard boxes, try other building toys. (But those are the
kinds of things that are easy and cheap to get at garage sales so you don't
need to invest a lot of money.)
Joyce
> but I have a problem including toys that are violent such as guns,As with anything that gets limited or controled, it often becomes more
> swords, green army men. My thought is that if they want these toys they
> can fashion them from sticks, bats, green rocks, or whatever.
desirable.
I watched my sister in law go through this. She didn't want guns in her
home. But her son was really really interested and turned anything into a
gun. Eventually she relented and she would tell him to only point at
imaginary bad guys.
He now has a BB gun and rifle and enjoys paint ball. Exactly what you don't
want to hear ;-) And yet he's a very peaceful kid. He has no interest in
hunting. When he and my daughter were watching an anime together with 5 guys
controlling huge armored robots, he chose the pacifist as his favorite
character, the one who didn't want to kill.
Play can be a way of exploring something kids will be doing for real in the
future. But it can also be a way of safely playing out a desire for
something they *don't* want to do in real life. By killing pretend people,
it helps them reinforce the ideas why they wouldn't want to kill real
people.
> It is one way I have of sharing nonviolent values w/my kids.And perhaps it would be useful to examine how you're going about sharing
your nonviolent values: You are using your natural power over kids -- or
planning to -- to stop them from exploring something that (perhaps)
interests them. It's the same method that people with guns do. They want
someone to do something that the other person doesn't want to do, so they
use power over them to make them.
> I expect, based onOther than what you've done by mentioning the types of things that go
> giving of vague aunts and uncles to other boys in the family, that with
> this birthday (#2) or next it will be an issue.
against your values, there isn't a way to graciously refuse a gift. Either
the gift giver is oblivious to your message or they're choosing to ignore it
because they think you're wrong. If your son has no interest in the guns he
receives, you can say thanks and list it on eBay the next day or return it
to Toys R Us for store credit if you've left it in the package.
If he does appreicate the gifts of weapons, then see above.
> On a broader note, does it much matter if one has a lot of learningIt's more helpful for getting unschooling to not divide toys into
> toys around the house vs. toys like electronic VTech toys?
educational and non-educational but to divide them into things they're
interested in and things they aren't (yet) interested in.
The most learningful toys are the ones the kids play with :-)
> Im wondering if I should start constructing aThey need things to know things exist in order to ask for them! ;-) Strew
> different environment or just wait until they ask for these learning
> toys (tinkertoys, etc.)
things that might interest them. Get more of what they like, but keep other
things that might intrigue them running through their lives. If they enjoy
building with cardboard boxes, try other building toys. (But those are the
kinds of things that are easy and cheap to get at garage sales so you don't
need to invest a lot of money.)
Joyce
[email protected]
We choose not to have any toys that are/look like guns or knives/swords as to
us these things should never be considered toys as the real things are to be
respected and handled with care (and not toys to be played with). I feel if
they grow up this way they will likely go hunting with their Dad but will always
take weapons seriously and not ever see them as a play thing/toy. JMO! Works
for us! LynnF
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
us these things should never be considered toys as the real things are to be
respected and handled with care (and not toys to be played with). I feel if
they grow up this way they will likely go hunting with their Dad but will always
take weapons seriously and not ever see them as a play thing/toy. JMO! Works
for us! LynnF
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
Taking your child to a firing range to shoot a rifle or handgun is a
surefire way to "explain" the differences between real and toy guns.
LOL That's what my dad did for me when I was about 6 years old. It
was great fun for me to try it, and even at that age I realized that a
gun was a powerful tool and nothing to make light of.
Additionally, playing with a toy gun was just *playing* and didn't make
me wish it was a real one to wave around while riding my bike around
the neighborhood with my friends playing "cops and robbers". That's
been my experience with real and toys guns. :)
-Tracy-
surefire way to "explain" the differences between real and toy guns.
LOL That's what my dad did for me when I was about 6 years old. It
was great fun for me to try it, and even at that age I realized that a
gun was a powerful tool and nothing to make light of.
Additionally, playing with a toy gun was just *playing* and didn't make
me wish it was a real one to wave around while riding my bike around
the neighborhood with my friends playing "cops and robbers". That's
been my experience with real and toys guns. :)
-Tracy-
On Apr 15, 2004, at 8:03 AM, puddinghead1@... wrote:
> We choose not to have any toys that are/look like guns or
> knives/swords as to us these things should never be considered toys as
> the real things are to be respected and handled with care (and not
> toys to be played with). I feel if they grow up this way they will
> likely go hunting with their Dad but will always take weapons
> seriously and not ever see them as a play thing/toy. JMO! Works for
> us!
mamaaj2000
Would you stop them from crashing toy cars together so that they
learn that cars are not toys and need to be respected and handled
with care?
I'm a lot more worried about my kids getting hurt in a car accident
than by guns (IIRC, this is more likely), but I'm not going to keep
them from toy cars, I'm going to help them understand how cars work,
how to use them safely, what the dangers are, etc.
--aj
learn that cars are not toys and need to be respected and handled
with care?
I'm a lot more worried about my kids getting hurt in a car accident
than by guns (IIRC, this is more likely), but I'm not going to keep
them from toy cars, I'm going to help them understand how cars work,
how to use them safely, what the dangers are, etc.
--aj
--- In [email protected], puddinghead1@c... wrote:
> We choose not to have any toys that are/look like guns or
knives/swords as to
> us these things should never be considered toys as the real things
are to be
> respected and handled with care (and not toys to be played with). I
feel if
> they grow up this way they will likely go hunting with their Dad
but will always
> take weapons seriously and not ever see them as a play thing/toy.
JMO! Works
> for us! LynnF
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
[I also sent this last night but it didn't appear to come through so
apologies if this is a second viewing.]
Sure, a lot of it is stuff I wouldn’t consider “learning” toys, etc.,
but I have a problem including toys that are “violent” such as guns,
swords, green army men. My thought is that if they want these toys they
can fashion them from sticks, bats, green rocks, or whatever. It is one
way I have of sharing nonviolent values w/my kids.
Do any of you have similar values? How did you address it with family
and friends? It hasn’t been an issue w/my girl but I expect, based on
giving of vague aunts and uncles to other boys in the family, that with
this birthday (#2) or next it will be an issue. I’ve spread the word as
best I can, but if such a gift is given, how might I approach it w/out
coming off as rude and irrational?
On a broader note, does it much matter if one has a lot of “learning”
toys around the house vs. toys like electronic VTech toys? (My family’s
favorite gifts.) I’m wondering if I should start constructing a
different environment or just wait until they ask for these “learning”
toys (tinkertoys, etc.)>>
I used to be all gung ho about only buying "educational" toys or toys deemed
more worthy by virtue of being "old fashioned" and of high quality - like
only wooden block sets or those personality neutral dolls that are sold for
big $ in some beautifully printed catalogues. I have so totally relaxed.
Now the only criteria I use for whether I will buy a toy are: 1/ Jayn (4.5)
has actually asked for it; 2/ We can afford it; 3/ We have the room for it
in our apartment. (She can hardly wait for a new room so she can have a
dolls' house). *All* her toys are learning tools, and the issue of quality
has been one that I have also let go of. For example, I was only interested
in getting her nice paints and real bristle paintbrushes. She asked for the
really cheap little watercolor trays that come with coloring books, and
likes using those awful cheap brushes they come with to scrape on the paper,
along with her good brushes. She has often gotten just as much out of the
dolls that come with her Happy Meal, as she has out of her collectible
Barbies - and boy do I feel better about her pulling those ones apart to
turn them into puppets, or repainting their clothes different colors.
Actually I let go of my anxiety about her destroying any of her own things,
as long as she is doing it deliberately and mindfully - transformation not
destruction. I mean, if she is throwing something in a fury, I try to
prevent the damage since I know she will be sorry later, but if she is
cutting their hair knowing it won't grow back - well they are her things,
not mine. She also has a bunch of porcelain dolls, of which she is very
careful.
How does Jayn discover the toys she wants? TV, internet, catalogues,
browsing at stores, visiting friends, seeing some toy/tool Daddy has bought
for himself. Least successful: adults buying her some unseen or unasked for
toy and giving it to her as a surprise. Sometimes she gets downright angry
and insists we take it back to the store.
I have always disliked those electronic toys along the lines of Lets Pretend
Elmo (is that the right name?) that direct the child's play. I think
disliking them allowed me to feel superior somehow. Jayn solves that problem
with pretty much all the dolls she has that talk, by choosing to switch them
off. What a concept: she is in charge of her own playing and there is no
"right" way to use any of it! I can trust her to use all her stuff in ways
far beyond the instructions. And her enormously expensive plain wood blocks
(a gift from grandparents) have a bunch of drawing and coloring on them.
Do "violent" toys create violent nasty children? Does seemingly violent role
playing in games, electronic or physical, create violent people without a
grasp of limits in other real situations (ie psychopaths)? All of my
experience observing gently parented and unschooled children says "no"
resoundingly.
However, nor does the absence of these violent toys guarantee having a child
who is universally non-violent in her regular behavior either. The "worst"
we have are some plastic "Medieval" swords and shields from Ikea that we
play with together, and I like them better than sticks because the swords
are blunted, and the shields guard ones hands from whacks. They sit on the
shelf for many months at a time. She has a couple of toy armored vehicles -
but it is about them being battery operated and they could just as well be
painted with pink polka dots as army camouflage colors. She has self limited
the violent type toys, by not wanting any of them. Her preferred
video/computer games are Barbie and Princesses. She asks me to fast forward
through scary violent moments on her DVD's. She has never been hit or
punished, although I have shouted at her sometimes, and am working on that.
She will hit me across the head when frustrated, and sometimes laughs while
doing it - exploring her own power? Testing my limits? She has turned those
innocuous "educational" toys into dangerous projectiles, but it is all
directed at me, or her father - safe targets I guess. It has been a long
time since she has kicked or hit another child while playing - and it was
sometimes provoked at the time. She sometimes still gets excited with sand
tossing, throwing it up into the air, and this escalates into throwing at
people - but I step in (as I have mentioned in other posts).
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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---
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apologies if this is a second viewing.]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<I try to be purposeful, or somewhat so, about the toys my kids have.
Sure, a lot of it is stuff I wouldn’t consider “learning” toys, etc.,
but I have a problem including toys that are “violent” such as guns,
swords, green army men. My thought is that if they want these toys they
can fashion them from sticks, bats, green rocks, or whatever. It is one
way I have of sharing nonviolent values w/my kids.
Do any of you have similar values? How did you address it with family
and friends? It hasn’t been an issue w/my girl but I expect, based on
giving of vague aunts and uncles to other boys in the family, that with
this birthday (#2) or next it will be an issue. I’ve spread the word as
best I can, but if such a gift is given, how might I approach it w/out
coming off as rude and irrational?
On a broader note, does it much matter if one has a lot of “learning”
toys around the house vs. toys like electronic VTech toys? (My family’s
favorite gifts.) I’m wondering if I should start constructing a
different environment or just wait until they ask for these “learning”
toys (tinkertoys, etc.)>>
I used to be all gung ho about only buying "educational" toys or toys deemed
more worthy by virtue of being "old fashioned" and of high quality - like
only wooden block sets or those personality neutral dolls that are sold for
big $ in some beautifully printed catalogues. I have so totally relaxed.
Now the only criteria I use for whether I will buy a toy are: 1/ Jayn (4.5)
has actually asked for it; 2/ We can afford it; 3/ We have the room for it
in our apartment. (She can hardly wait for a new room so she can have a
dolls' house). *All* her toys are learning tools, and the issue of quality
has been one that I have also let go of. For example, I was only interested
in getting her nice paints and real bristle paintbrushes. She asked for the
really cheap little watercolor trays that come with coloring books, and
likes using those awful cheap brushes they come with to scrape on the paper,
along with her good brushes. She has often gotten just as much out of the
dolls that come with her Happy Meal, as she has out of her collectible
Barbies - and boy do I feel better about her pulling those ones apart to
turn them into puppets, or repainting their clothes different colors.
Actually I let go of my anxiety about her destroying any of her own things,
as long as she is doing it deliberately and mindfully - transformation not
destruction. I mean, if she is throwing something in a fury, I try to
prevent the damage since I know she will be sorry later, but if she is
cutting their hair knowing it won't grow back - well they are her things,
not mine. She also has a bunch of porcelain dolls, of which she is very
careful.
How does Jayn discover the toys she wants? TV, internet, catalogues,
browsing at stores, visiting friends, seeing some toy/tool Daddy has bought
for himself. Least successful: adults buying her some unseen or unasked for
toy and giving it to her as a surprise. Sometimes she gets downright angry
and insists we take it back to the store.
I have always disliked those electronic toys along the lines of Lets Pretend
Elmo (is that the right name?) that direct the child's play. I think
disliking them allowed me to feel superior somehow. Jayn solves that problem
with pretty much all the dolls she has that talk, by choosing to switch them
off. What a concept: she is in charge of her own playing and there is no
"right" way to use any of it! I can trust her to use all her stuff in ways
far beyond the instructions. And her enormously expensive plain wood blocks
(a gift from grandparents) have a bunch of drawing and coloring on them.
Do "violent" toys create violent nasty children? Does seemingly violent role
playing in games, electronic or physical, create violent people without a
grasp of limits in other real situations (ie psychopaths)? All of my
experience observing gently parented and unschooled children says "no"
resoundingly.
However, nor does the absence of these violent toys guarantee having a child
who is universally non-violent in her regular behavior either. The "worst"
we have are some plastic "Medieval" swords and shields from Ikea that we
play with together, and I like them better than sticks because the swords
are blunted, and the shields guard ones hands from whacks. They sit on the
shelf for many months at a time. She has a couple of toy armored vehicles -
but it is about them being battery operated and they could just as well be
painted with pink polka dots as army camouflage colors. She has self limited
the violent type toys, by not wanting any of them. Her preferred
video/computer games are Barbie and Princesses. She asks me to fast forward
through scary violent moments on her DVD's. She has never been hit or
punished, although I have shouted at her sometimes, and am working on that.
She will hit me across the head when frustrated, and sometimes laughs while
doing it - exploring her own power? Testing my limits? She has turned those
innocuous "educational" toys into dangerous projectiles, but it is all
directed at me, or her father - safe targets I guess. It has been a long
time since she has kicked or hit another child while playing - and it was
sometimes provoked at the time. She sometimes still gets excited with sand
tossing, throwing it up into the air, and this escalates into throwing at
people - but I step in (as I have mentioned in other posts).
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Mary
Would you buy them a power wheels car to drive? Or let them play with trucks
and cars? What about playing with a toy oven? Or if they pretend to build
and play with a fire?
Just something else to think about. All real things that aren't toys at some
point too.
Mary B
and cars? What about playing with a toy oven? Or if they pretend to build
and play with a fire?
Just something else to think about. All real things that aren't toys at some
point too.
Mary B
----- Original Message -----
From: <puddinghead1@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Violent toys?
> We choose not to have any toys that are/look like guns or knives/swords as
to
> us these things should never be considered toys as the real things are to
be
> respected and handled with care (and not toys to be played with). I feel
if
> they grow up this way they will likely go hunting with their Dad but will
always
> take weapons seriously and not ever see them as a play thing/toy. JMO!
Works
> for us! LynnF
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