re: losing at games
Mark and Rheta Wallingford
>>How old is Isabel?Ross also used to have a fit when he lost. Would get very upset. Would
quit or throw parts of the game around if he felt he was going to lose.
I
usually let him win without his knowing what I was doing. I think he was
about 10 years old when he began to be able to accept the idea that
sometimes he would lose. It wasn't until age 13-14 that he was mostly
comfortable with losing, though, he still much prefers to win.
Kids do mature and learn.
Anita Bower<<
Isabel is 5. Really just starting to learn about losing, board games
and all that. I really appreciate the advice given on this board
because of the perspective that children have feelings and ideas and
these are to be respected. I was raised to control at all costs the
intense emotions that you can feel as a child, and still feel as an
adult . that if a child throws a tantrum at losing a game, they are
"little brats" and should be spanked and sent to their rooms - "I
bothered to take the time and play with you and this is how you repay
me?!". I read with interest the spanking discussion. It's been
difficult to throw away everything you've been taught from day one but
in no way can I express (in under 2000 words anyway <g>)the eye-opening
change that this list has started in our lives. I say "started" because
I'm still learning and will be for a long time. I could go on about my
youth . suffice it to say my dad's favorite and most used expression was
"You make me sick." I want to be sure that what I say to my children
conveys the love I feel for them and the respect I have for who they
are.
She has not shown any interest in karate so far, although, she knows
what it is. Right now she's into princesses and dresses. I've signed
her up for a total of 5 things and she has asked me not to sign her up
for anything else. She wants to drop out of Daisies (the group below
Brownies). I said that was fine but that I still had to go because I
had signed up to be her group leader and still had to honor that
obligation. She stayed in for 8 months and I could tell she didn't like
it fairly early on. Her biggest thing about group activities, and I
knew this, was that she HATES doing what the rest of the group is doing.
While everyone else is happy drawing a flower, Bel insists on drawing
butterflies. This causes a lot of conflict in a group setting. I don't
mind it, but when the instructor wants it done one way and she refuses,
it can be disruptive to the group and she gets irritated. I love that
she is an individual and I know she will eventually find those interests
where she can be in a group and still do her "thing". I thought about
drama club because you can embellish your character, etc. but she's
said no, she's not ready to stand up in front of people and do a play.
Any other suggestions would be great!
I like the idea of everyone agreeing on who will win before the game
starts. It really does take the "competitiveness" out of a game. It
also gives her the chance of deciding to let someone else win. :-)
Rheta
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristi Hayes
There are several cooperative games out there where you win as a team
working as a group to rescue the princess or unlock a box. Also there
are at least 2 out of print books on cooperative games; I know there is
one at the local library and cooperative games is part of the title.
Offers an alternative to competition for kids who have a hard time with
it (and I was one of those kids, and still battle with not being a sore
loser LOL)
Kristi
Unschooling mama to Morgaine, 4 ½, Orion, 2, and Isaac, our newest UC
babe born 3/6/04!!!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
working as a group to rescue the princess or unlock a box. Also there
are at least 2 out of print books on cooperative games; I know there is
one at the local library and cooperative games is part of the title.
Offers an alternative to competition for kids who have a hard time with
it (and I was one of those kids, and still battle with not being a sore
loser LOL)
Kristi
Unschooling mama to Morgaine, 4 ½, Orion, 2, and Isaac, our newest UC
babe born 3/6/04!!!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<I've signed her up for a total of 5 things and she has asked me not to
sign her up for anything else. She wants to drop out of Daisies (the group
below
Brownies). I said that was fine but that I still had to go because I
had signed up to be her group leader and still had to honor that
obligation. She stayed in for 8 months and I could tell she didn't like
it fairly early on. Her biggest thing about group activities, and I
knew this, was that she HATES doing what the rest of the group is doing.
While everyone else is happy drawing a flower, Bel insists on drawing
butterflies. This causes a lot of conflict in a group setting. I don't
mind it, but when the instructor wants it done one way and she refuses,
it can be disruptive to the group and she gets irritated. I love that
she is an individual and I know she will eventually find those interests
where she can be in a group and still do her "thing". I thought about
drama club because you can embellish your character, etc. but she's
said no, she's not ready to stand up in front of people and do a play.
Any other suggestions would be great!>>
Quit signing her up for stuff! Let her drop out of anything she wants to as
soon as she wants to. If she misses it, let her go back. She's only five.
Jayn (4) has ONE firmly scheduled activity - the modern dance/creative
movement class that she loves, also taken by all her friends from our
homeschool group. She is free to leave the class and come to me downstairs
whenever she wants, and will usually take a break towards the end of the
hour. We don't even get to Monday park day on a fully regular basis. Jayn
really does fill her time with playing and art and physical stuff. I am an
enormous believer, especially in artistic and creative endeavors, in
supplying materials (or other kids) and then backing off. Jayn always draws
precisely what she wants.
Is it Bel or the instructor who is getting irritated? I think a word to the
instructor about Bel's freedom from required obedience might be in order. If
Bel is not being subjected to the other person's instructions, there may be
no disruption to the group.
As cool as drama sounds for older folk, drama club may not allow her any
freedom if she is being asked to be a specific character, make specific
movements, stand somewhere specific for a specified length of time, and be
at all the rehearsals. Permission to embellish your character may come with
an improv group, but not always with a group that puts on a play. I suspect
that a group or class designed (probably by adults) for 5 year olds, would
have a lot of the "now everyone be an animal/a tree/the wind" type of games.
Jayn often pretends to be an animal - on her own schedule and instigation.
Would this really be something Bel would get into to at the moment?
Unpleasant as it is to recall, most structured activities for folk this
young are designed to mimic or prepare kids for the culture and realities of
being in school, and often have the same kind of criteria for "success" as
classrooms - such as "follows instructions" and "participates well in group
activities". I try very hard to make the vast majority of Jayn's
interactions with other homeschoolers, in activities that reflect a culture
of freedom and individual explorations.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
sign her up for anything else. She wants to drop out of Daisies (the group
below
Brownies). I said that was fine but that I still had to go because I
had signed up to be her group leader and still had to honor that
obligation. She stayed in for 8 months and I could tell she didn't like
it fairly early on. Her biggest thing about group activities, and I
knew this, was that she HATES doing what the rest of the group is doing.
While everyone else is happy drawing a flower, Bel insists on drawing
butterflies. This causes a lot of conflict in a group setting. I don't
mind it, but when the instructor wants it done one way and she refuses,
it can be disruptive to the group and she gets irritated. I love that
she is an individual and I know she will eventually find those interests
where she can be in a group and still do her "thing". I thought about
drama club because you can embellish your character, etc. but she's
said no, she's not ready to stand up in front of people and do a play.
Any other suggestions would be great!>>
Quit signing her up for stuff! Let her drop out of anything she wants to as
soon as she wants to. If she misses it, let her go back. She's only five.
Jayn (4) has ONE firmly scheduled activity - the modern dance/creative
movement class that she loves, also taken by all her friends from our
homeschool group. She is free to leave the class and come to me downstairs
whenever she wants, and will usually take a break towards the end of the
hour. We don't even get to Monday park day on a fully regular basis. Jayn
really does fill her time with playing and art and physical stuff. I am an
enormous believer, especially in artistic and creative endeavors, in
supplying materials (or other kids) and then backing off. Jayn always draws
precisely what she wants.
Is it Bel or the instructor who is getting irritated? I think a word to the
instructor about Bel's freedom from required obedience might be in order. If
Bel is not being subjected to the other person's instructions, there may be
no disruption to the group.
As cool as drama sounds for older folk, drama club may not allow her any
freedom if she is being asked to be a specific character, make specific
movements, stand somewhere specific for a specified length of time, and be
at all the rehearsals. Permission to embellish your character may come with
an improv group, but not always with a group that puts on a play. I suspect
that a group or class designed (probably by adults) for 5 year olds, would
have a lot of the "now everyone be an animal/a tree/the wind" type of games.
Jayn often pretends to be an animal - on her own schedule and instigation.
Would this really be something Bel would get into to at the moment?
Unpleasant as it is to recall, most structured activities for folk this
young are designed to mimic or prepare kids for the culture and realities of
being in school, and often have the same kind of criteria for "success" as
classrooms - such as "follows instructions" and "participates well in group
activities". I try very hard to make the vast majority of Jayn's
interactions with other homeschoolers, in activities that reflect a culture
of freedom and individual explorations.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
Erika Nunn
In response to...
"I've signed her up for a total of 5 things and she has asked me not to
sign her up for anything else. She wants to drop out of Daisies (the group
below Brownies)."
I had to laugh because when I initially read this I thought you were talking
about a girl who was probably in her teens...then I realized that she was
only five years old! My son who is almost five sounds a lot like your
daughter. He hates structure and anybody telling him how to do anything.
And forget group activities. Once when we were discussing what school was
like, I told him that he would have to ask the teacher to go to the
bathroom. He looked at me incredulously and snorted, "If I have to do that
then I will just turn up the music really loud, walk out the door and go
home." I'm still not sure exactly what the music is about, but I assume it
is symbolic of blocking out this authoritative figure.
Anyway, often times I feel like I am not doing enough with my kids -
especially when I hear about all these "great" things other kids are doing
in preschools. But then I think about how much cooler it is that my kids
get to relax all day and follow their own rhythms.
I agree...I think you shouldn't do any classes with your daughter.
Actually, I remember now when I was in some group - I think it was the
Brownies or Blue Birds or something like that. There was this art activity
with eggs that all the girls were doing. For some reason I was unable to
follow the instructor's directions and so the instructor told another adult
to go over and help me. I remember feeling extremely humiliated as none of
the other girls were having difficulty. I felt scared around the other
girls that I didn't know. Looking back, I now realize that it never really
dawned on me back then that I didn't HAVE to be there...I just assumed I had
to be because my mom put me in it.
Good luck!
Erika :)
_________________________________________________________________
Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available.
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/
"I've signed her up for a total of 5 things and she has asked me not to
sign her up for anything else. She wants to drop out of Daisies (the group
below Brownies)."
I had to laugh because when I initially read this I thought you were talking
about a girl who was probably in her teens...then I realized that she was
only five years old! My son who is almost five sounds a lot like your
daughter. He hates structure and anybody telling him how to do anything.
And forget group activities. Once when we were discussing what school was
like, I told him that he would have to ask the teacher to go to the
bathroom. He looked at me incredulously and snorted, "If I have to do that
then I will just turn up the music really loud, walk out the door and go
home." I'm still not sure exactly what the music is about, but I assume it
is symbolic of blocking out this authoritative figure.
Anyway, often times I feel like I am not doing enough with my kids -
especially when I hear about all these "great" things other kids are doing
in preschools. But then I think about how much cooler it is that my kids
get to relax all day and follow their own rhythms.
I agree...I think you shouldn't do any classes with your daughter.
Actually, I remember now when I was in some group - I think it was the
Brownies or Blue Birds or something like that. There was this art activity
with eggs that all the girls were doing. For some reason I was unable to
follow the instructor's directions and so the instructor told another adult
to go over and help me. I remember feeling extremely humiliated as none of
the other girls were having difficulty. I felt scared around the other
girls that I didn't know. Looking back, I now realize that it never really
dawned on me back then that I didn't HAVE to be there...I just assumed I had
to be because my mom put me in it.
Good luck!
Erika :)
_________________________________________________________________
Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available.
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/
Anita Bower
> I've signedKids can be so smart about how much to do. Ross has also always been good
>her up for a total of 5 things and she has asked me not to sign her up
>for anything else.
at knowing where to draw the line on activities. He likes to be less busy
than I do.
Five is young to be involved in many outside activities. Ross didn't start
karate until he was 8.
Anita Bower
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/30/04 6:08:34 PM, wallingford@... writes:
<< I could go on about my
youth . suffice it to say my dad's favorite and most used expression was
"You make me sick." >>
That is so sad.
I'm really sorry to say that.
I bet people said that to him and he was repeating it without ever really
hearing it or thinking about what it really meant.
My mom said "You little brat" a lot.
<< She wants to drop out of Daisies (the group below
Brownies). I said that was fine but that I still had to go because I
had signed up to be her group leader and still had to honor that
obligation. >>
If she's not having fun, it's no longer her group and your obligation ends.
You're there because of her, and everyone there knows it, and I don't think
you have any obligation if she's not having fun. Your obligation is really to
her.
<<She stayed in for 8 months and I could tell she didn't like
it fairly early on. >>
How many months of that were you giving her a lesson in obligation? Be her
partner! If your team wants to do something different, bail out!
Here's something that might make you feel better. I pass them out at
conferences, but this is an online version. Other unschoolers helped me phrase it
as a handout the first time I ever spoke at a conference, and I've kept a
supply ever since:
http://sandradodd.com/empowerment
<<This causes a lot of conflict in a group setting. I don't
mind it,>>
Avoid groups for a while, I think, but I also think karate could be a life
changer for her. It's much more individual than group. (But if she doesn't
like it, don't press her for eight months.)
<<I like the idea of everyone agreeing on who will win before the game
starts. It really does take the "competitiveness" out of a game. It
also gives her the chance of deciding to let someone else win. :-)>>
An idea: You could throw dice or flip a coin at the beginning to see who's
going to win and then play the game with that slant. If she sees at some point
that that's goofy, show her that the game is supposed to just play out
naturally and the winner chosen THAT way.
Sandra
<< I could go on about my
youth . suffice it to say my dad's favorite and most used expression was
"You make me sick." >>
That is so sad.
I'm really sorry to say that.
I bet people said that to him and he was repeating it without ever really
hearing it or thinking about what it really meant.
My mom said "You little brat" a lot.
<< She wants to drop out of Daisies (the group below
Brownies). I said that was fine but that I still had to go because I
had signed up to be her group leader and still had to honor that
obligation. >>
If she's not having fun, it's no longer her group and your obligation ends.
You're there because of her, and everyone there knows it, and I don't think
you have any obligation if she's not having fun. Your obligation is really to
her.
<<She stayed in for 8 months and I could tell she didn't like
it fairly early on. >>
How many months of that were you giving her a lesson in obligation? Be her
partner! If your team wants to do something different, bail out!
Here's something that might make you feel better. I pass them out at
conferences, but this is an online version. Other unschoolers helped me phrase it
as a handout the first time I ever spoke at a conference, and I've kept a
supply ever since:
http://sandradodd.com/empowerment
<<This causes a lot of conflict in a group setting. I don't
mind it,>>
Avoid groups for a while, I think, but I also think karate could be a life
changer for her. It's much more individual than group. (But if she doesn't
like it, don't press her for eight months.)
<<I like the idea of everyone agreeing on who will win before the game
starts. It really does take the "competitiveness" out of a game. It
also gives her the chance of deciding to let someone else win. :-)>>
An idea: You could throw dice or flip a coin at the beginning to see who's
going to win and then play the game with that slant. If she sees at some point
that that's goofy, show her that the game is supposed to just play out
naturally and the winner chosen THAT way.
Sandra