Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Which Learning Experiences Are Valuable?
[email protected]
I loved Norma's description of her most vivid learning memories.
Thanks for a great read that really touched me!
So it's not to argue, not at all, that I'll suggest expanding our
criteria for determining what affects us and what doesn't. The most vividly
memorable is one way but not the only way to weigh the value of experience.
I believe cognitive science on memory has found that big, splashy,
high-impact moments and people are indeed the most imprinted and recall-able, but
not necessarily the most "important." And not necessarily accurately
remembered either, over time. Then there are memories that get repressed or twisted
around because they are TOO strong to recall accurately.
And where would any of us be without our early childhood experiences?
The first three years of life have huge learning effect, even though we can't
remember any of it. Before the age of three, everything that happens is pretty
much beyond our ability to recall and recount. Doesn't mean it's not very
important! :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for a great read that really touched me!
So it's not to argue, not at all, that I'll suggest expanding our
criteria for determining what affects us and what doesn't. The most vividly
memorable is one way but not the only way to weigh the value of experience.
I believe cognitive science on memory has found that big, splashy,
high-impact moments and people are indeed the most imprinted and recall-able, but
not necessarily the most "important." And not necessarily accurately
remembered either, over time. Then there are memories that get repressed or twisted
around because they are TOO strong to recall accurately.
And where would any of us be without our early childhood experiences?
The first three years of life have huge learning effect, even though we can't
remember any of it. Before the age of three, everything that happens is pretty
much beyond our ability to recall and recount. Doesn't mean it's not very
important! :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/19/04 11:41:05 AM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< Before the age of three, everything that happens is pretty
much beyond our ability to recall and recount. Doesn't mean it's not very
important! :) >>
Doesn't mean it's a worthy model for helping verbal, cognizant kids choose
activities, though. what my kids do now they DO remember, barring trauma or
boredom. So I avoid trauma and boredom with and for them.
Sandra
<< Before the age of three, everything that happens is pretty
much beyond our ability to recall and recount. Doesn't mean it's not very
important! :) >>
Doesn't mean it's a worthy model for helping verbal, cognizant kids choose
activities, though. what my kids do now they DO remember, barring trauma or
boredom. So I avoid trauma and boredom with and for them.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/19/2004 1:41:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jrossedd@... writes:
Before the age of three, everything that happens is pretty
much beyond our ability to recall and recount.<<<<
I think if the event is powerful enough, we DO remember. I remember at 18
months getting on the plane to go to Germany. (I got a "package" from the
stewardess with cards and crayons and a coloring book.) I remember being at the
Frankfurt zoo on my neighbor's shoulders----we were looking at the giraffes; I was
two. And, at three, I remember sitting on the wondow sill of our home in
Germany as the movers moved our furniture out: I said to my brother, "I will never
forget this day!" <g> On the way home from Germany (we took a ship), I
remember I refused to eat anything but Rice Krispies the entire trip. And I remember
that my brother almost fell over the side of the ship as we approached NY
harbor----some guy caught him!
Ben says he remembers when JFK was shot----he was sitting in his "Johnny
Jump-up" when the news came on, and his mother screamed and cried. But he doesn't
remember anything else until he was *much* older. (Ben's birthday is
2/2/62----so he was a baby!)
They aren't complete memories, but they are very real. And I remember
purposefully saying that I wouldn't forget those movers! <g>
So I think the situation would have to make some kind of imprint for us to
remember it later. But I do believe we *can* remember some of our lives "under
three"
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jrossedd@... writes:
Before the age of three, everything that happens is pretty
much beyond our ability to recall and recount.<<<<
I think if the event is powerful enough, we DO remember. I remember at 18
months getting on the plane to go to Germany. (I got a "package" from the
stewardess with cards and crayons and a coloring book.) I remember being at the
Frankfurt zoo on my neighbor's shoulders----we were looking at the giraffes; I was
two. And, at three, I remember sitting on the wondow sill of our home in
Germany as the movers moved our furniture out: I said to my brother, "I will never
forget this day!" <g> On the way home from Germany (we took a ship), I
remember I refused to eat anything but Rice Krispies the entire trip. And I remember
that my brother almost fell over the side of the ship as we approached NY
harbor----some guy caught him!
Ben says he remembers when JFK was shot----he was sitting in his "Johnny
Jump-up" when the news came on, and his mother screamed and cried. But he doesn't
remember anything else until he was *much* older. (Ben's birthday is
2/2/62----so he was a baby!)
They aren't complete memories, but they are very real. And I remember
purposefully saying that I wouldn't forget those movers! <g>
So I think the situation would have to make some kind of imprint for us to
remember it later. But I do believe we *can* remember some of our lives "under
three"
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/19/04 11:01:09 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< So I think the situation would have to make some kind of imprint for us to
remember it later. But I do believe we *can* remember some of our lives
"under
three" >>
I have two baby memories, when I was between one and two.
Maybe if babies have more exciting lives they'll remember more! Our
traditional baby-treatment with all the baths at the same time and bedtime the same
"routine" and meals at the same time, same kinds of foods for breakfasts,
different foods for lunch, etc., aren't really designed to be memorable.
But only valuable experiences are learning experiences, so maybe the question
is worded badly.
Which Learning Experiences Are Valuable?
Learning is valuable.
Learning doesn't happen unless someone's brain is sparking.
Boredom and stillness aren't learning tools.
Sandra
<< So I think the situation would have to make some kind of imprint for us to
remember it later. But I do believe we *can* remember some of our lives
"under
three" >>
I have two baby memories, when I was between one and two.
Maybe if babies have more exciting lives they'll remember more! Our
traditional baby-treatment with all the baths at the same time and bedtime the same
"routine" and meals at the same time, same kinds of foods for breakfasts,
different foods for lunch, etc., aren't really designed to be memorable.
But only valuable experiences are learning experiences, so maybe the question
is worded badly.
Which Learning Experiences Are Valuable?
Learning is valuable.
Learning doesn't happen unless someone's brain is sparking.
Boredom and stillness aren't learning tools.
Sandra
Diane
I think this varies a great deal. I have one memory of being five years
old--nothing before that. And it's nearly a snapshot--not a video. But
my mother remembers *everything*! Sometimes I wish for her memory, but
usually I'm fine with mine. The only problem right now is that a bunch
of my stuff has been destroyed and I can't tell what's missing because I
don't remember what I had!
Studies say most people don't remember anything before three--some
earlier and some later. My mom earlier, me later.
:-) Diane
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
old--nothing before that. And it's nearly a snapshot--not a video. But
my mother remembers *everything*! Sometimes I wish for her memory, but
usually I'm fine with mine. The only problem right now is that a bunch
of my stuff has been destroyed and I can't tell what's missing because I
don't remember what I had!
Studies say most people don't remember anything before three--some
earlier and some later. My mom earlier, me later.
:-) Diane
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>In a message dated 2/19/2004 1:41:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>jrossedd@... writes:
>Before the age of three, everything that happens is pretty
>much beyond our ability to recall and recount.<<<<
>
>I think if the event is powerful enough, we DO remember.
>
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
I grabbed to signal a subject change (from whether unschoolers graduate, I
think.)
The point was merely that learning happens much more often than in the
moments we flag and catalog and remember as "learning." Failure to notice
while it's happening is not failure to learn.
And goodness, it doesn't improve the wording or meaning to equate
boredom and stillness, or to exclude them as learning tools. In my experience
stillness at least is VITAL for learning, though seldom memorable. Maybe even a
bit of boredom is useful now and then (but it would be awful to use this as
justification for lousy unschooling.)
I don't remember how I learned to read. There was no big event that
precipitated my learning to read, write, or speak (or think for that matter --
and it's all ongoing I suppose).
Don't remember a single reading teacher I ever had or any memorable
"aha" moment whatsoever, although I do vividly remember one night figuring out
how to say the alphabet backwards, while lying in the dark during years of
too-early bedtimes. From that night to this day, I can recite it perfectly and
have had much fun with it, because of boredom AND stillness. <g>
Come to think of it, I have no memory of how either of our children
learned to read -- except that stillness was an important part of it. They don't
remember it either. They also don't remember now-deceased grandparents who
loved and nurtured them (in many long afternoons of stillness, possibly even
boredom) Does that prove they learned nothing from those relationships and the
quiet time they filled in their lives?
Eight-year-old DS doesn't even remember some very emotional moments
like his own near- drowning or our car accident, or the family dog we had until
he was four that we had to put down because he started snapping at DS. Also,
some of his best ideas spring from stillness, if not boredom. (Of course we
strew and converse and stimulate around here, but not to stave off stillness.)
In music, the rests are just as important as the notes played to the
integrity of the whole experience. Not ever noticed, or remembered or
commented on, but essential. Like contemplation and sleep are to learning, maybe?
And think of all we'd miss if we noticed only punctuation marks!
What we subjectively recall as learning moments are only the barest
sketch of what we learned and how we learned it. Even, perhaps especially, for
unschoolers. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> maybe the questionCertainly not a well-worded question. <g> It was just a subject line
> is worded badly.
>
> Which Learning Experiences Are Valuable?
>
> Learning is valuable.
> Learning doesn't happen unless someone's brain is sparking.
> Boredom and stillness aren't learning tools.
>
I grabbed to signal a subject change (from whether unschoolers graduate, I
think.)
The point was merely that learning happens much more often than in the
moments we flag and catalog and remember as "learning." Failure to notice
while it's happening is not failure to learn.
And goodness, it doesn't improve the wording or meaning to equate
boredom and stillness, or to exclude them as learning tools. In my experience
stillness at least is VITAL for learning, though seldom memorable. Maybe even a
bit of boredom is useful now and then (but it would be awful to use this as
justification for lousy unschooling.)
I don't remember how I learned to read. There was no big event that
precipitated my learning to read, write, or speak (or think for that matter --
and it's all ongoing I suppose).
Don't remember a single reading teacher I ever had or any memorable
"aha" moment whatsoever, although I do vividly remember one night figuring out
how to say the alphabet backwards, while lying in the dark during years of
too-early bedtimes. From that night to this day, I can recite it perfectly and
have had much fun with it, because of boredom AND stillness. <g>
Come to think of it, I have no memory of how either of our children
learned to read -- except that stillness was an important part of it. They don't
remember it either. They also don't remember now-deceased grandparents who
loved and nurtured them (in many long afternoons of stillness, possibly even
boredom) Does that prove they learned nothing from those relationships and the
quiet time they filled in their lives?
Eight-year-old DS doesn't even remember some very emotional moments
like his own near- drowning or our car accident, or the family dog we had until
he was four that we had to put down because he started snapping at DS. Also,
some of his best ideas spring from stillness, if not boredom. (Of course we
strew and converse and stimulate around here, but not to stave off stillness.)
In music, the rests are just as important as the notes played to the
integrity of the whole experience. Not ever noticed, or remembered or
commented on, but essential. Like contemplation and sleep are to learning, maybe?
And think of all we'd miss if we noticed only punctuation marks!
What we subjectively recall as learning moments are only the barest
sketch of what we learned and how we learned it. Even, perhaps especially, for
unschoolers. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
I agree. I lost my twin sister three hours after our birth. We were 30-week preemies in 1975. I don't remember it as a traditional sort of memory, but I do know that I have always felt that there was a time when everything was fine, and then I suffered a great empty loss. I didn't have to be told that I was a twin, when I started talking I would ask where "My me" was (the "Me" that was mine...my twin).
Also, because of my severe prematurity, I could not have anesthesia when I had my surgery to correct a patent ductus arteriosus when I was three weeks old. I've been able to link my panic disorder and anxiety to that surgery, because I remember a time of dark pain in my chest and fear and being unable to move (I was strapped down for the surgery).
MamaBeth
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
In a message dated 2/19/2004 1:41:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jrossedd@... writes:
Before the age of three, everything that happens is pretty
much beyond our ability to recall and recount.<<<<
I think if the event is powerful enough, we DO remember.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Also, because of my severe prematurity, I could not have anesthesia when I had my surgery to correct a patent ductus arteriosus when I was three weeks old. I've been able to link my panic disorder and anxiety to that surgery, because I remember a time of dark pain in my chest and fear and being unable to move (I was strapped down for the surgery).
MamaBeth
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
In a message dated 2/19/2004 1:41:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jrossedd@... writes:
Before the age of three, everything that happens is pretty
much beyond our ability to recall and recount.<<<<
I think if the event is powerful enough, we DO remember.
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi
Hi folks
I have a couple of pre-three memories, one so ordinary I can't
believe i remember it because of its emotional impact: at just over
walking age (???) I am looking out the window of the second floor
apartment we lived in back then, at a five year old friend riding a
tricycle. Anthony. Him waving at me and me waving at him.
Another memory: me biting my little brother and my mom getting VERY
angry and saying/shouting "Look, he's bleeding" I would have been
about two, maybe a few months over. He was sitting in his high chair
and I was in the kitchen at knee level to my mom and the sun was
shining into the kitchen window.
and that's about it. but I have a pretty bad memory all round. Don't
remember much AFTER three, either. :)
blessings, HeidiC
I have a couple of pre-three memories, one so ordinary I can't
believe i remember it because of its emotional impact: at just over
walking age (???) I am looking out the window of the second floor
apartment we lived in back then, at a five year old friend riding a
tricycle. Anthony. Him waving at me and me waving at him.
Another memory: me biting my little brother and my mom getting VERY
angry and saying/shouting "Look, he's bleeding" I would have been
about two, maybe a few months over. He was sitting in his high chair
and I was in the kitchen at knee level to my mom and the sun was
shining into the kitchen window.
and that's about it. but I have a pretty bad memory all round. Don't
remember much AFTER three, either. :)
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/19/2004 1:41:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jrossedd@a... writes:
> Before the age of three, everything that happens is pretty
> much beyond our ability to recall and recount.<<<<
>
> I think if the event is powerful enough, we DO remember. ....> So I
think the situation would have to make some kind of imprint for us to
> remember it later. But I do believe we *can* remember some of our
lives "under
> three"
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], jrossedd@a... wrote:
reading
turning a cartwheel
doing the splits in all three ways
backbends
handwriting
how to read someone else's emotions
stage presence
the names of the states
Those are a few.
But what I wanted to add is that what I know well (the fields I understand and can
contribute to in a more profound way) are due to a depth of interest and total immersion
in the experiences themselves. My training in theater in high school still serves me today.
My fundamental understanding of expository writing came from Freshman English and a
wonderful teacher. All that I know about Christian history and theology is due to a dogged
pursuit fueled by a single question.
While I can't remember learning how to read, I can remember what I've read that matters
to me.
Perhaps there is a distinction between learning and knowledge. Learning is happening all
the time whether we're conscious of it or not. We may learn that school is dull more than
we learn information from schooling, for instance. But knowledge (retention of facts and
histories and narratives and themes and schools of thought and meanings, etc.) is
evidenced when a person has a grasp of the material that can be shared with others
naturally - it's her possession.
And to me, there isn't usually a discrete point at which that takes place. The acquisition of
knowledge grows over time based on charged interest, interaction with the material (or
materials!) and opportunity.
Julie
>I was just coming to post what I've learned that I don't remember learning. :)
> The point was merely that learning happens much more often than in the
> moments we flag and catalog and remember as "learning." Failure to notice
> while it's happening is not failure to learn.
reading
turning a cartwheel
doing the splits in all three ways
backbends
handwriting
how to read someone else's emotions
stage presence
the names of the states
Those are a few.
But what I wanted to add is that what I know well (the fields I understand and can
contribute to in a more profound way) are due to a depth of interest and total immersion
in the experiences themselves. My training in theater in high school still serves me today.
My fundamental understanding of expository writing came from Freshman English and a
wonderful teacher. All that I know about Christian history and theology is due to a dogged
pursuit fueled by a single question.
While I can't remember learning how to read, I can remember what I've read that matters
to me.
Perhaps there is a distinction between learning and knowledge. Learning is happening all
the time whether we're conscious of it or not. We may learn that school is dull more than
we learn information from schooling, for instance. But knowledge (retention of facts and
histories and narratives and themes and schools of thought and meanings, etc.) is
evidenced when a person has a grasp of the material that can be shared with others
naturally - it's her possession.
And to me, there isn't usually a discrete point at which that takes place. The acquisition of
knowledge grows over time based on charged interest, interaction with the material (or
materials!) and opportunity.
Julie
Susan Gallien
Beth... what do you think on doing procedures on premie babies without anesthesia? It always seemed to me to be a horrendously barbaric thing to even think of doing, yet I guess it beats the alternative for those who don't go into shock and die.
Speaking of panic attacks from past events; I was always claustrophobic and didn't know why, when in small spaces I'd feel terribly panicked and felt as though I had to get out or something horrible would happen. Seven years ago it went away, and all because I found out why I had them. At age 9 months old I had crawled out into the garden with my 4 year old brother who was playing in the snow, he had dug a tunnel and I went into it, and it promptly collapsed. The way he tells it he was digging franticly to get me out and then our mother who had been in the bathroom [nature even calls good mothers] came looking for me. They finally dug me out but apparently I was buried for over 10 minutes. Mom never told me about it and I don't know why... maybe another of her anger things at my brother who provided me with one of my earliest memories... tumbling down cement stairs in my pram and putting my teeth through my lip. Another thing my Mother didn't tell me about, I asked her about it when I was about 14, she was stunned that I remembered it since I was 13 months old at the time.
I also have memories of being bounced up and down on a grey trousered leg, by my Daddy [he died three days after I turned 3], and of my brother and I hiding behind Daddy's big chair and taking turns pulling the hair on his arms, he would in mock horror grab the little offender, of course leaving his other arm ready for the other villain to pull the hair on. I can still see the way the skin would stand up as I pulled the individual hairs, and still see his face as he grabbed for me as I ran away. Eventually he would chase one of us and we'd all end up in a laughing pile on the floor.
I remember my Father's Mother babysitting me while we listened to my Mother sing on the radio, when I told my Mother that one she said that I was 2.5 when that happened. That's close to the extent of my English memories.. that and a feeling of great sadness when we left. I didn't know till years later that my Father's family had tried to kidnap my brother and I to get Mom to stay there.
Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com
Speaking of panic attacks from past events; I was always claustrophobic and didn't know why, when in small spaces I'd feel terribly panicked and felt as though I had to get out or something horrible would happen. Seven years ago it went away, and all because I found out why I had them. At age 9 months old I had crawled out into the garden with my 4 year old brother who was playing in the snow, he had dug a tunnel and I went into it, and it promptly collapsed. The way he tells it he was digging franticly to get me out and then our mother who had been in the bathroom [nature even calls good mothers] came looking for me. They finally dug me out but apparently I was buried for over 10 minutes. Mom never told me about it and I don't know why... maybe another of her anger things at my brother who provided me with one of my earliest memories... tumbling down cement stairs in my pram and putting my teeth through my lip. Another thing my Mother didn't tell me about, I asked her about it when I was about 14, she was stunned that I remembered it since I was 13 months old at the time.
I also have memories of being bounced up and down on a grey trousered leg, by my Daddy [he died three days after I turned 3], and of my brother and I hiding behind Daddy's big chair and taking turns pulling the hair on his arms, he would in mock horror grab the little offender, of course leaving his other arm ready for the other villain to pull the hair on. I can still see the way the skin would stand up as I pulled the individual hairs, and still see his face as he grabbed for me as I ran away. Eventually he would chase one of us and we'd all end up in a laughing pile on the floor.
I remember my Father's Mother babysitting me while we listened to my Mother sing on the radio, when I told my Mother that one she said that I was 2.5 when that happened. That's close to the extent of my English memories.. that and a feeling of great sadness when we left. I didn't know till years later that my Father's family had tried to kidnap my brother and I to get Mom to stay there.
Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Roberts
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 8:48 AM
I agree. I lost my twin sister three hours after our birth. We were 30-week preemies in 1975. I don't remember it as a traditional sort of memory, but I do know that I have always felt that there was a time when everything was fine, and then I suffered a great empty loss. I didn't have to be told that I was a twin, when I started talking I would ask where "My me" was (the "Me" that was mine...my twin).
Also, because of my severe prematurity, I could not have anesthesia when I had my surgery to correct a patent ductus arteriosus when I was three weeks old. I've been able to link my panic disorder and anxiety to that surgery, because I remember a time of dark pain in my chest and fear and being unable to move (I was strapped down for the surgery).
MamaBeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
Susan,
I understand the anesthesiologist's concerns about putting a less than 2lb child completely under. The first time I heard that that had happened to me, it took alot to not puke in horror at what had happened to me. It sounds so very barbaric, but the truth is that the guy wasn't familiar with severely premature infants. I WAS given an amnesiac, so I'm not supposed to remember any of it. But again, they didn't have any experience dosing a child as little as I was (I'd been born at 2lbs 4oz, and had lost just over half a pound at that point). They didn't expect me to survive the surgery no matter what they did, because they didn't have any experience performing the surgery on a 30weeker.
I think they made the best choices that they could given the situation. When I was in the hospital after having the pulmonary embolism, before they ruled out postpartum congestive heart failure, I'd had to have a TEE done. It's a cardiac ultrasound but they put the probe down your throat. They needed a closer look at my mitral valve. They gave me an amnesiac (I don't recall offhand what it was) but it didn't take effect fully until after the procedure, so I remember all of it, including the choking feeling of the thing going past where they'd been able to numb my throat. So it's easy for me to understand why I still have some sort of memory regarding my surgery.
Especially today with the advances made in medicine, it is rare that they'd have to perform surgery like they did on me. I guess I should also explain that I was born to a Navy servicemember, and had been med-evaced (medical evacuation) to the 19th Army General Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany. I don't know how much of the fact that I was at a military hospital was in play in regards to not having had anesthesia for my surgery.
All in all though, it doesn't bother me. I am so very thankful that I'm even alive!
Wow...thanks for sharing how you found out about your claustrophobia and panic attacks! Once I knew where they were coming from, I've been able to handle them and they rarely come up anymore. Have you been able to do the same?
Elizabeth
Susan Gallien <susan@...> wrote:
Beth... what do you think on doing procedures on premie babies without anesthesia? It always seemed to me to be a horrendously barbaric thing to even think of doing, yet I guess it beats the alternative for those who don't go into shock and die.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I understand the anesthesiologist's concerns about putting a less than 2lb child completely under. The first time I heard that that had happened to me, it took alot to not puke in horror at what had happened to me. It sounds so very barbaric, but the truth is that the guy wasn't familiar with severely premature infants. I WAS given an amnesiac, so I'm not supposed to remember any of it. But again, they didn't have any experience dosing a child as little as I was (I'd been born at 2lbs 4oz, and had lost just over half a pound at that point). They didn't expect me to survive the surgery no matter what they did, because they didn't have any experience performing the surgery on a 30weeker.
I think they made the best choices that they could given the situation. When I was in the hospital after having the pulmonary embolism, before they ruled out postpartum congestive heart failure, I'd had to have a TEE done. It's a cardiac ultrasound but they put the probe down your throat. They needed a closer look at my mitral valve. They gave me an amnesiac (I don't recall offhand what it was) but it didn't take effect fully until after the procedure, so I remember all of it, including the choking feeling of the thing going past where they'd been able to numb my throat. So it's easy for me to understand why I still have some sort of memory regarding my surgery.
Especially today with the advances made in medicine, it is rare that they'd have to perform surgery like they did on me. I guess I should also explain that I was born to a Navy servicemember, and had been med-evaced (medical evacuation) to the 19th Army General Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany. I don't know how much of the fact that I was at a military hospital was in play in regards to not having had anesthesia for my surgery.
All in all though, it doesn't bother me. I am so very thankful that I'm even alive!
Wow...thanks for sharing how you found out about your claustrophobia and panic attacks! Once I knew where they were coming from, I've been able to handle them and they rarely come up anymore. Have you been able to do the same?
Elizabeth
Susan Gallien <susan@...> wrote:
Beth... what do you think on doing procedures on premie babies without anesthesia? It always seemed to me to be a horrendously barbaric thing to even think of doing, yet I guess it beats the alternative for those who don't go into shock and die.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Susan Gallien
Thanks Elizabeth,
When I was pregnant with my last baby and had a fear of premature birth due to a placenta previa I read a lot about premature babies and their treatment. [too much information can be bad] . It seems all sorts of major surgery is done without anesthetic and I often wondered about if I would allow that to be done to my baby if the need arose. All I could imagine was the huge amount of pain that would be inflicted and I wondered about the wholeness of my child after such torture at the hands of caring people, the child's ability to trust etc, their very humanity.
As to the claustrophobia and panic attacks from my snow burial... since I figured out that was where they were coming from I am able to control them, I still get a slight feeling of panic is confined spaces, but it never gets to the stage where it used to with the exception of my last plane trip, when I felt for all the world like I wanted to smash the window and jump out...
Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com
When I was pregnant with my last baby and had a fear of premature birth due to a placenta previa I read a lot about premature babies and their treatment. [too much information can be bad] . It seems all sorts of major surgery is done without anesthetic and I often wondered about if I would allow that to be done to my baby if the need arose. All I could imagine was the huge amount of pain that would be inflicted and I wondered about the wholeness of my child after such torture at the hands of caring people, the child's ability to trust etc, their very humanity.
As to the claustrophobia and panic attacks from my snow burial... since I figured out that was where they were coming from I am able to control them, I still get a slight feeling of panic is confined spaces, but it never gets to the stage where it used to with the exception of my last plane trip, when I felt for all the world like I wanted to smash the window and jump out...
Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Roberts
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 8:25 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Reply to Susan (was early childhood memories)
Susan,
I understand the anesthesiologist's concerns about putting a less than 2lb child completely under. The first time I heard that that had happened to me, it took alot to not puke in horror at what had happened to me. It sounds so very barbaric, but the truth is that the guy wasn't familiar with severely premature infants. I WAS given an amnesiac, so I'm not supposed to remember any of it. But again, they didn't have any experience dosing a child as little as I was (I'd been born at 2lbs 4oz, and had lost just over half a pound at that point). They didn't expect me to survive the surgery no matter what they did, because they didn't have any experience performing the surgery on a 30weeker.
I think they made the best choices that they could given the situation. When I was in the hospital after having the pulmonary embolism, before they ruled out postpartum congestive heart failure, I'd had to have a TEE done. It's a cardiac ultrasound but they put the probe down your throat. They needed a closer look at my mitral valve. They gave me an amnesiac (I don't recall offhand what it was) but it didn't take effect fully until after the procedure, so I remember all of it, including the choking feeling of the thing going past where they'd been able to numb my throat. So it's easy for me to understand why I still have some sort of memory regarding my surgery.
Especially today with the advances made in medicine, it is rare that they'd have to perform surgery like they did on me. I guess I should also explain that I was born to a Navy servicemember, and had been med-evaced (medical evacuation) to the 19th Army General Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany. I don't know how much of the fact that I was at a military hospital was in play in regards to not having had anesthesia for my surgery.
All in all though, it doesn't bother me. I am so very thankful that I'm even alive!
Wow...thanks for sharing how you found out about your claustrophobia and panic attacks! Once I knew where they were coming from, I've been able to handle them and they rarely come up anymore. Have you been able to do the same?
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
Susan,
If that were to be the case, the best thing for the child would be to be touched by the parents as much as possible and as soon as possible. I didn't begin to recover until they brought my parents in the see me because I was still failing even though the surgery was considered a success. They didn't understand it, but chalked it up to my prematurity. My mom spoke to me, but my vitals stayed the same. When my dad spoke to me AND reached in through the isolette to stroke my forehead with his finger (they totally freaked because while he'd scrubbed, he wasn't gloved!!) my vitals started to improve. Interestingly, I'm much closer to my father than my mother so I'm somewhat fascinated by the way that happened. I literally have my Dad's blood in me as they used him to give me a direct transfusion at one point because we are the same blood type (gosh medicine is facsinating!!!).
I think though, that I would have been more "whole" if it hadn't been for growing up with an emotionally distant mother and not being able to see my father because of their divorce. Nor was I ever really allowed to discuss my twin nor how I felt living without her. It wasn't until I grew up that I realized how much that affected me...for example, I tend to collect things related to activities I'm involved in and mementos and such in direct consequence of that denial of my twin. By denying her existence, they denied a part of me. I've always been scared that if something happened to me, there would be nobody to mourn me, nobody to know who I was, etc. so I've always wanted to be sure I leave things behind for my children and grandchildren if not further generations to be able to know me and that I existed.
Those things, along with some childhood sexual abuse from a babysitter's son and an inability to trust that if I told my mother she'd believe me and protect me, did more to developing the panic disorder than simply the surgery I think. Not that it didn't have a huge part, but I really think if the rest had been there, I may not have developed the panic attacks. It just happened that they manifested most in a remembrance of that surgery, a time of ultimate pain and alone-ness.
I think no matter what a child may go through, if their parents are there with them and truly loving and supportive, protective and believing the child, they will be whole.
Elizabeth
Susan Gallien <susan@...> wrote:
Thanks Elizabeth,
When I was pregnant with my last baby and had a fear of premature birth due to a placenta previa I read a lot about premature babies and their treatment. [too much information can be bad] . It seems all sorts of major surgery is done without anesthetic and I often wondered about if I would allow that to be done to my baby if the need arose. All I could imagine was the huge amount of pain that would be inflicted and I wondered about the wholeness of my child after such torture at the hands of caring people, the child's ability to trust etc, their very humanity.
As to the claustrophobia and panic attacks from my snow burial... since I figured out that was where they were coming from I am able to control them, I still get a slight feeling of panic is confined spaces, but it never gets to the stage where it used to with the exception of my last plane trip, when I felt for all the world like I wanted to smash the window and jump out...
Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com
If that were to be the case, the best thing for the child would be to be touched by the parents as much as possible and as soon as possible. I didn't begin to recover until they brought my parents in the see me because I was still failing even though the surgery was considered a success. They didn't understand it, but chalked it up to my prematurity. My mom spoke to me, but my vitals stayed the same. When my dad spoke to me AND reached in through the isolette to stroke my forehead with his finger (they totally freaked because while he'd scrubbed, he wasn't gloved!!) my vitals started to improve. Interestingly, I'm much closer to my father than my mother so I'm somewhat fascinated by the way that happened. I literally have my Dad's blood in me as they used him to give me a direct transfusion at one point because we are the same blood type (gosh medicine is facsinating!!!).
I think though, that I would have been more "whole" if it hadn't been for growing up with an emotionally distant mother and not being able to see my father because of their divorce. Nor was I ever really allowed to discuss my twin nor how I felt living without her. It wasn't until I grew up that I realized how much that affected me...for example, I tend to collect things related to activities I'm involved in and mementos and such in direct consequence of that denial of my twin. By denying her existence, they denied a part of me. I've always been scared that if something happened to me, there would be nobody to mourn me, nobody to know who I was, etc. so I've always wanted to be sure I leave things behind for my children and grandchildren if not further generations to be able to know me and that I existed.
Those things, along with some childhood sexual abuse from a babysitter's son and an inability to trust that if I told my mother she'd believe me and protect me, did more to developing the panic disorder than simply the surgery I think. Not that it didn't have a huge part, but I really think if the rest had been there, I may not have developed the panic attacks. It just happened that they manifested most in a remembrance of that surgery, a time of ultimate pain and alone-ness.
I think no matter what a child may go through, if their parents are there with them and truly loving and supportive, protective and believing the child, they will be whole.
Elizabeth
Susan Gallien <susan@...> wrote:
Thanks Elizabeth,
When I was pregnant with my last baby and had a fear of premature birth due to a placenta previa I read a lot about premature babies and their treatment. [too much information can be bad] . It seems all sorts of major surgery is done without anesthetic and I often wondered about if I would allow that to be done to my baby if the need arose. All I could imagine was the huge amount of pain that would be inflicted and I wondered about the wholeness of my child after such torture at the hands of caring people, the child's ability to trust etc, their very humanity.
As to the claustrophobia and panic attacks from my snow burial... since I figured out that was where they were coming from I am able to control them, I still get a slight feeling of panic is confined spaces, but it never gets to the stage where it used to with the exception of my last plane trip, when I felt for all the world like I wanted to smash the window and jump out...
Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Roberts
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 8:25 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Reply to Susan (was early childhood memories)
Susan,
I understand the anesthesiologist's concerns about putting a less than 2lb child completely under. The first time I heard that that had happened to me, it took alot to not puke in horror at what had happened to me. It sounds so very barbaric, but the truth is that the guy wasn't familiar with severely premature infants. I WAS given an amnesiac, so I'm not supposed to remember any of it. But again, they didn't have any experience dosing a child as little as I was (I'd been born at 2lbs 4oz, and had lost just over half a pound at that point). They didn't expect me to survive the surgery no matter what they did, because they didn't have any experience performing the surgery on a 30weeker.
I think they made the best choices that they could given the situation. When I was in the hospital after having the pulmonary embolism, before they ruled out postpartum congestive heart failure, I'd had to have a TEE done. It's a cardiac ultrasound but they put the probe down your throat. They needed a closer look at my mitral valve. They gave me an amnesiac (I don't recall offhand what it was) but it didn't take effect fully until after the procedure, so I remember all of it, including the choking feeling of the thing going past where they'd been able to numb my throat. So it's easy for me to understand why I still have some sort of memory regarding my surgery.
Especially today with the advances made in medicine, it is rare that they'd have to perform surgery like they did on me. I guess I should also explain that I was born to a Navy servicemember, and had been med-evaced (medical evacuation) to the 19th Army General Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany. I don't know how much of the fact that I was at a military hospital was in play in regards to not having had anesthesia for my surgery.
All in all though, it doesn't bother me. I am so very thankful that I'm even alive!
Wow...thanks for sharing how you found out about your claustrophobia and panic attacks! Once I knew where they were coming from, I've been able to handle them and they rarely come up anymore. Have you been able to do the same?
Elizabeth
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