Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Music Unschooling Can Include Teachers was:Strewing
[email protected]
There are different interpretations of what learning on one's own
means. To John Holt, as a forty-something single man, learning to play the cello
"on his own" meant that is was wholly his own desire, he made his own plan,
chose his own experiences including mentors and teachers and peers and
professional retreats.
But part of what he chose was formal instruction. And he seemed to
believe it was essential, according to his account in Never Too Late.
For example, Holt described something very difficult and peculiar
about the proper thumb position for cellists, apparently a technique no one would
ever just "invent" sitting around his own bedroom experimenting, and without
which one is sadly limited. Also, he found it was important to play with and
learn from all three types of musicians -- those of lesser ability, those of
comparable ability, and those much better than oneself.
FWIW, my own floundering about with music-making leads me to accept
that mastering a musical instrument is both gift and lifelong challenge no
matter how young or old you are, taught or not, or what methods or experiences you
might combine.
I wonder if it's like those birthday interviews with folks turning
100, where you really want to believe whatever they say is their secret to long
life, but in the back of your mind you realize it really doesn't apply to
anyone but themselves, and they likely turned 100 IN SPITE OF the cigarettes and
booze, not because of it! <g> JJ
means. To John Holt, as a forty-something single man, learning to play the cello
"on his own" meant that is was wholly his own desire, he made his own plan,
chose his own experiences including mentors and teachers and peers and
professional retreats.
But part of what he chose was formal instruction. And he seemed to
believe it was essential, according to his account in Never Too Late.
For example, Holt described something very difficult and peculiar
about the proper thumb position for cellists, apparently a technique no one would
ever just "invent" sitting around his own bedroom experimenting, and without
which one is sadly limited. Also, he found it was important to play with and
learn from all three types of musicians -- those of lesser ability, those of
comparable ability, and those much better than oneself.
FWIW, my own floundering about with music-making leads me to accept
that mastering a musical instrument is both gift and lifelong challenge no
matter how young or old you are, taught or not, or what methods or experiences you
might combine.
I wonder if it's like those birthday interviews with folks turning
100, where you really want to believe whatever they say is their secret to long
life, but in the back of your mind you realize it really doesn't apply to
anyone but themselves, and they likely turned 100 IN SPITE OF the cigarettes and
booze, not because of it! <g> JJ
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> ~~I had never heard of anyone learning music on their own, could it be
> done?~~
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2004 9:48:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jrossedd@... writes:
<< But part of what he chose was formal instruction. And he seemed to
believe it was essential, according to his account in Never Too Late.>>
I read Never Too Late a while ago, but if I remember correctly; Holt also
used formal instruction in a very casual manner. He would get to a point where
he felt that he could go on his own a while. Then he would just enjoy playing
by himself and with the groups that he participated in. Eventually he would
reach a point where he went back and took some more lessons to help him
progress.
I think this is something we need to consider with our children. Lessons
don't have to be once a week. Someone can take two or three lessons and then go
on their own for a while. When they want to they can take more.
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jrossedd@... writes:
<< But part of what he chose was formal instruction. And he seemed to
believe it was essential, according to his account in Never Too Late.>>
I read Never Too Late a while ago, but if I remember correctly; Holt also
used formal instruction in a very casual manner. He would get to a point where
he felt that he could go on his own a while. Then he would just enjoy playing
by himself and with the groups that he participated in. Eventually he would
reach a point where he went back and took some more lessons to help him
progress.
I think this is something we need to consider with our children. Lessons
don't have to be once a week. Someone can take two or three lessons and then go
on their own for a while. When they want to they can take more.
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 02/16/2004 10:15:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ivorygrace7@... writes:
JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ivorygrace7@... writes:
> In a message dated 2/16/2004 9:48:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,YES -- very true. Thanks for making that useful point more clearly. :)
> jrossedd@... writes:
> << But part of what he chose was formal instruction. And he seemed to
> believe it was essential, according to his account in Never Too Late.>>
>
> I read Never Too Late a while ago, but if I remember correctly; Holt also
> used formal instruction in a very casual manner. He would get to a point
> where
> he felt that he could go on his own a while. Then he would just enjoy
> playing
> by himself and with the groups that he participated in. Eventually he would
>
> reach a point where he went back and took some more lessons to help him
> progress.
>
> I think this is something we need to consider with our children. Lessons
> don't have to be once a week. Someone can take two or three lessons and
> then go
> on their own for a while. When they want to they can take more.
>
> --Jacqueline
JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Susan Gallien
Yes it can be done, my son Nathan has had no instruction at all yet plays guitar, fiddle and banjo. A local bluegrass group needs a banjo player and heard Nathan playing at a weekly "open microphone" and wants him to join them. His only "instruction" was recording music videos and watching various techniques of others.
Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com
Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> ~~I had never heard of anyone learning music on their own, could it be
> done?~~
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2004 9:15:32 AM Central Standard Time,
ivorygrace7@... writes:
people. We have not had much luck though finding a teacher who can step out of
his/her own "program" so to speak. Oh, I did recently ask a good hs Mom friend
if her son would come over now and then to let my son pick his brain and they
agreed, the young man is very musically talented. This is all very exciting
to watch.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ivorygrace7@... writes:
> I think this is something we need to consider with our children. LessonsThis is kind of what my son does, he picks up little things from different
> don't have to be once a week. Someone can take two or three lessons and
> then go
> on their own for a while. When they want to they can take more.
>
people. We have not had much luck though finding a teacher who can step out of
his/her own "program" so to speak. Oh, I did recently ask a good hs Mom friend
if her son would come over now and then to let my son pick his brain and they
agreed, the young man is very musically talented. This is all very exciting
to watch.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/04 7:48:56 AM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< But part of what he chose was formal instruction. And he seemed to
believe it was essential, according to his account in Never Too Late.
<<For example, Holt described something very difficult and peculiar
about the proper thumb position for cellists, apparently a technique no one
would
ever just "invent" sitting around his own bedroom experimenting, and without
which one is sadly limited. >>
Cello isn't rock'n'roll guitar, or drums. There are many different musical
styles. Nobody will learn operatic singing without instruction (it's more like
ballet than like most other types of music, in that there is a tradition and
technique specific to that style). But learning to sing operatically will NOT
at all in any way help someone be a folksinger, rock or blues singer.
That thumb position for cellos had to come from somewhere. And if someone
might not think it up, he might see it watching cellists in person or on video.
Paul McCartney learned to read and write music years after he was one of the
most respected musicians in the world.
Just as with language, you don't need to know how to read and write it to use
it well.
Sandra
<< But part of what he chose was formal instruction. And he seemed to
believe it was essential, according to his account in Never Too Late.
<<For example, Holt described something very difficult and peculiar
about the proper thumb position for cellists, apparently a technique no one
would
ever just "invent" sitting around his own bedroom experimenting, and without
which one is sadly limited. >>
Cello isn't rock'n'roll guitar, or drums. There are many different musical
styles. Nobody will learn operatic singing without instruction (it's more like
ballet than like most other types of music, in that there is a tradition and
technique specific to that style). But learning to sing operatically will NOT
at all in any way help someone be a folksinger, rock or blues singer.
That thumb position for cellos had to come from somewhere. And if someone
might not think it up, he might see it watching cellists in person or on video.
Paul McCartney learned to read and write music years after he was one of the
most respected musicians in the world.
Just as with language, you don't need to know how to read and write it to use
it well.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2004 8:49:10 AM Central Standard Time,
jrossedd@... writes:
until the student thinks it is and that may be never according to what they want
to do with their music. That is the hard part for me doing nothing when all
of my programming says "DO SOMETHING", LOL Get lessons, music, books move this
along...
But I do nothing, and I sometimes feel giddy watching this unfold. I feel so
privileged to be present for this unlearning music adventure.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jrossedd@... writes:
>Ah, but that is the key, he chose it. Could it be that it is not essential
> But part of what he chose was formal instruction. And he seemed to
> believe it was essential, according to his account in Never Too Late.
>
until the student thinks it is and that may be never according to what they want
to do with their music. That is the hard part for me doing nothing when all
of my programming says "DO SOMETHING", LOL Get lessons, music, books move this
along...
But I do nothing, and I sometimes feel giddy watching this unfold. I feel so
privileged to be present for this unlearning music adventure.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I took piano lessons when I was five, and then quit when I was six. I still
have my report card, so I could tell you the date of every lesson. <g> It
was a year or so (I don't want to go find it).
When I was ten I joined band at school so I could get out of class. I played
clarinet because I had NO idea what my choices were when they asked us to say
what instrument we wanted, so I copied "clarinet" off my friend's paper.
Turns out that whole back row copied. They had never shown us instruments or
told us what all our options were, and I ran with a whole large crowd of
firstborns with no older siblings to copy.
The two instruments I play now are guitar and recorder. I play recorder
better than I play guitar, but I learned recorder on my own, then took a year of
lessons at the university to learn Baroque technique (to do sonata-stuff, which
isn't all that fun for me). But I had already been in a Renaissance group
before that, and so it didn't propel me along except along a particular route.
The teacher insisted on a thumbrest. I used it when he was looking and took
it off when he wasn't. It was irritating, but he was a clarinet professor
and believed thumbrests were essential. They're not.
Guitar, I had one lesson and learned more by messing with it, watching other
guitarists who were doing fingerpicking, and asking questions. My mom played
guitar, but with a flatpick, and I wanted to learn fingerpicking, so I did. I
use it to accompany singing, and that's all. I don't do guitar for guitar's
sake. So I'm not "a guitarist."
I can read music, but I don't for guitar. I don't even think notation when
I'm playing guitar, nor note names. Chord names, yes, but if I do a run or an
ornament, I don't think of what part of the chord that is, I just do it by ear.
Piano, I can do by written music or by ear, but there's a kind of
disconnection in my head, like I use a different part of my body, kind of.
If you think of any nation's folk music, people learned it by being around
others who played, and picking things up very gradually. In many times and
places, instruments were made by hand (still in many places) in traditional ways,
and they don't come from professional instrument makers or factories. Banjos
started off in lots of folk ways before some manufacturers started creating
specific banjo designs that they could mass produce.
I've had friends who made ceramic dumbeks, throwing the clay and then
stretching goat skin on it, getting good enough to sell them.
An English professor I knew wanted to learn to make violins, so apprenticed
to a violin maker in his "after school" hours.
Don't think of music as a big curriculum/assembly-line where you have to
enter at the kindergarten door and come out a graduate. It's not that way.
Sandra
have my report card, so I could tell you the date of every lesson. <g> It
was a year or so (I don't want to go find it).
When I was ten I joined band at school so I could get out of class. I played
clarinet because I had NO idea what my choices were when they asked us to say
what instrument we wanted, so I copied "clarinet" off my friend's paper.
Turns out that whole back row copied. They had never shown us instruments or
told us what all our options were, and I ran with a whole large crowd of
firstborns with no older siblings to copy.
The two instruments I play now are guitar and recorder. I play recorder
better than I play guitar, but I learned recorder on my own, then took a year of
lessons at the university to learn Baroque technique (to do sonata-stuff, which
isn't all that fun for me). But I had already been in a Renaissance group
before that, and so it didn't propel me along except along a particular route.
The teacher insisted on a thumbrest. I used it when he was looking and took
it off when he wasn't. It was irritating, but he was a clarinet professor
and believed thumbrests were essential. They're not.
Guitar, I had one lesson and learned more by messing with it, watching other
guitarists who were doing fingerpicking, and asking questions. My mom played
guitar, but with a flatpick, and I wanted to learn fingerpicking, so I did. I
use it to accompany singing, and that's all. I don't do guitar for guitar's
sake. So I'm not "a guitarist."
I can read music, but I don't for guitar. I don't even think notation when
I'm playing guitar, nor note names. Chord names, yes, but if I do a run or an
ornament, I don't think of what part of the chord that is, I just do it by ear.
Piano, I can do by written music or by ear, but there's a kind of
disconnection in my head, like I use a different part of my body, kind of.
If you think of any nation's folk music, people learned it by being around
others who played, and picking things up very gradually. In many times and
places, instruments were made by hand (still in many places) in traditional ways,
and they don't come from professional instrument makers or factories. Banjos
started off in lots of folk ways before some manufacturers started creating
specific banjo designs that they could mass produce.
I've had friends who made ceramic dumbeks, throwing the clay and then
stretching goat skin on it, getting good enough to sell them.
An English professor I knew wanted to learn to make violins, so apprenticed
to a violin maker in his "after school" hours.
Don't think of music as a big curriculum/assembly-line where you have to
enter at the kindergarten door and come out a graduate. It's not that way.
Sandra
[email protected]
AND...
For some reason I keep forgetting to tell this story. I forgot at the
conference in South Carolina. I forgot in the e-mail just before this!
Pam Sorooshian's middle daughter, Roxana, plays piano.
I used to see the very-beginner books on their piano, the first time I went
over. I'd go there every year or so, sometimes more, sometimes less, and there
would be a more advanced book, and there started being easy Andrew Lloyd
Weber things, because that was Roxana's passion for a while (might still be), and
once Pam said she was tired of hearing the same ALWeber stuff. So the next
time I went there, I took a Clementi book (Six Sonatinas) and gave it to Roxana
as a gift. I was thinking she might just never have tried that kind of easy
Baroque stuff, which sounds complex but isn't very hard, really. And the
by-product if she liked it was Pam could hear something new.
Roxana sat down and started playing them. Not full speed, of course, but
both hands, and clearly she was reading them well and easily and would only have
needed some practice to get them going as fast as she wanted to.
I asked Pam "How long has she taken lessons?"
"She's never taken lessons."
I was surprised; I'd never asked. She had certainly learned, though, to read
music, and she was sight-reading which lots of people fail ever to do. They
will "practice" and pick things out phrase by phrase (like reading
phonetically without expectation of comprehension), but they won't just read a whole page
of music to see what it sounds like. Roxana could do that.
Sandra
For some reason I keep forgetting to tell this story. I forgot at the
conference in South Carolina. I forgot in the e-mail just before this!
Pam Sorooshian's middle daughter, Roxana, plays piano.
I used to see the very-beginner books on their piano, the first time I went
over. I'd go there every year or so, sometimes more, sometimes less, and there
would be a more advanced book, and there started being easy Andrew Lloyd
Weber things, because that was Roxana's passion for a while (might still be), and
once Pam said she was tired of hearing the same ALWeber stuff. So the next
time I went there, I took a Clementi book (Six Sonatinas) and gave it to Roxana
as a gift. I was thinking she might just never have tried that kind of easy
Baroque stuff, which sounds complex but isn't very hard, really. And the
by-product if she liked it was Pam could hear something new.
Roxana sat down and started playing them. Not full speed, of course, but
both hands, and clearly she was reading them well and easily and would only have
needed some practice to get them going as fast as she wanted to.
I asked Pam "How long has she taken lessons?"
"She's never taken lessons."
I was surprised; I'd never asked. She had certainly learned, though, to read
music, and she was sight-reading which lots of people fail ever to do. They
will "practice" and pick things out phrase by phrase (like reading
phonetically without expectation of comprehension), but they won't just read a whole page
of music to see what it sounds like. Roxana could do that.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2004 10:41:44 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
choose another instrument because they already had enough kids playing of what
the child wanted to play. What if they did have their heart set on
playing the clarinet and were asked to switch to the flute? Maybe it doesn't matter
as much as I am thinking, I have never played anything but it seems it would
matter to me.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> When I was ten I joined band at school so I could get out of class. IThis is a little OT but I could never understand when a child was asked to
> played
> clarinet because I had NO idea what my choices were when they asked us to
> say
> what instrument we wanted, so I copied "clarinet" off my friend's paper.&
> nbsp;
> Turns out that whole back row copied.
choose another instrument because they already had enough kids playing of what
the child wanted to play. What if they did have their heart set on
playing the clarinet and were asked to switch to the flute? Maybe it doesn't matter
as much as I am thinking, I have never played anything but it seems it would
matter to me.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lenhart
>But learning to sing operatically will NOTI would argue that it can help, quite a bit. The so called "classic"
>at all in any way help someone be a folksinger, rock or blues singer.
trainings are useful--centuries of study have come up with useful tools.
Now, is it necessary??? Certainly not. But I think dismissing the worth of
certain things, just because they require a teacher, isn't useful.
And why re-invent the wheel? If I want to sing opera, I should study opera,
not re-invent operatic singing. If I want to sing folk music I will still
need to study folk music--but because the style isn't as demanding or rigid,
I have more options. I can study simply by listening and watching.
Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/04 10:16:25 AM, mina@... writes:
<< But I think dismissing the worth of
certain things, just because they require a teacher, isn't useful. >>
I didn't dismiss it for requiring a teacher.
I'm saying the techniques don't transfer to blues or folk singing, which have
their OWN traditions, and which do things purposely which (specifically)
operatic teachers will swear will damage your vocal chords, or are just *wrong.*
What's wrong for opera is not wrong for everything.
Classical guitar teachers will show you exactly how to sit and how to hold a
guitar. You MUST have a stand to put your foot on or "it" won't work. "IT"
in that case cannot possibly be "playing a guitar." It is "playing the guitar
the way classical guitarists have come to sit to play a guitar." Flamenco
guitarists who do have a closer relationship to classical guitarists than, say,
Johnny Cash or Jon Bon Jovi, sit to play, but they don't sit one particular
way. They seem lots of times to be moving their feet around while they play,
shifting their bodies, getting almost EXCITED (in comparison).
<<If I want to sing folk music I will still
need to study folk music-->>
"Study" is too strong a word for something that really involves doing first
and analyzing later. <g>
<<And why re-invent the wheel? If I want to sing opera, I should study opera,
not re-invent operatic singing. >>
True. And ballet needs serious ballet-everything. Abusive teachers, ankle
damage...
If people choose a tradition which doesn't exist outside of a curriculum and
teachers, then there they are. That's one problem with discussing music or
dance or theatre, is the hundreds of years of formal tradition that goes with
some of the styles within those. Some are loose and some aren't.
But just as with regular public school teachers, some of the teachers have
not ever seen anyone learn it without the whole rigamarole of years of
instruction and hour a day practice and checkmarks on pages and going through someone
or other's course of study (Thompson Piano, add Bach after book 3, add Bartok
after book 4, etc, whatever all).
Sandra
Sandra
<< But I think dismissing the worth of
certain things, just because they require a teacher, isn't useful. >>
I didn't dismiss it for requiring a teacher.
I'm saying the techniques don't transfer to blues or folk singing, which have
their OWN traditions, and which do things purposely which (specifically)
operatic teachers will swear will damage your vocal chords, or are just *wrong.*
What's wrong for opera is not wrong for everything.
Classical guitar teachers will show you exactly how to sit and how to hold a
guitar. You MUST have a stand to put your foot on or "it" won't work. "IT"
in that case cannot possibly be "playing a guitar." It is "playing the guitar
the way classical guitarists have come to sit to play a guitar." Flamenco
guitarists who do have a closer relationship to classical guitarists than, say,
Johnny Cash or Jon Bon Jovi, sit to play, but they don't sit one particular
way. They seem lots of times to be moving their feet around while they play,
shifting their bodies, getting almost EXCITED (in comparison).
<<If I want to sing folk music I will still
need to study folk music-->>
"Study" is too strong a word for something that really involves doing first
and analyzing later. <g>
<<And why re-invent the wheel? If I want to sing opera, I should study opera,
not re-invent operatic singing. >>
True. And ballet needs serious ballet-everything. Abusive teachers, ankle
damage...
If people choose a tradition which doesn't exist outside of a curriculum and
teachers, then there they are. That's one problem with discussing music or
dance or theatre, is the hundreds of years of formal tradition that goes with
some of the styles within those. Some are loose and some aren't.
But just as with regular public school teachers, some of the teachers have
not ever seen anyone learn it without the whole rigamarole of years of
instruction and hour a day practice and checkmarks on pages and going through someone
or other's course of study (Thompson Piano, add Bach after book 3, add Bartok
after book 4, etc, whatever all).
Sandra
Sandra
[email protected]
mina@... writes:
the ways being discussed, from natural gifts to family modeling and environment
to instruction, self-teaching, playing with peers, studying the classics, and
following his passion in many directions, including professional composing,
conducting, and yes, teaching others.
I understand and agree that it's useful for us unschoolers to help each
other resist all the schoolish assumptions that surround us, but if anyone in
my family ever gets the chance to take study music of any kind with any
Marsalis, I think it's safe to say we'd jump at it, and still consider ourselves
very much unschoolers! <g> JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Wynton Marsalis came to my mind. His musical genius developed in ALL
> >But learning to sing operatically will NOT
> >at all in any way help someone be a folksinger, rock or blues singer.
>
> I would argue that it can help, quite a bit. The so called "classic"
> trainings are useful--centuries of study have come up with useful tools.
>
the ways being discussed, from natural gifts to family modeling and environment
to instruction, self-teaching, playing with peers, studying the classics, and
following his passion in many directions, including professional composing,
conducting, and yes, teaching others.
I understand and agree that it's useful for us unschoolers to help each
other resist all the schoolish assumptions that surround us, but if anyone in
my family ever gets the chance to take study music of any kind with any
Marsalis, I think it's safe to say we'd jump at it, and still consider ourselves
very much unschoolers! <g> JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/04 11:34:40 AM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< I understand and agree that it's useful for us unschoolers to help
each
other resist all the schoolish assumptions that surround us, but if anyone in
my family ever gets the chance to take study music of any kind with any
Marsalis, I think it's safe to say we'd jump at it, and still consider
ourselves
very much unschoolers! >>
But you know in advance that he's not a classical music snob.
You know in advance he wouldn't tell your kids that rock and roll is just
noise, or that playing jazz would ruin their ear or that bluegrass will destroy
every technique they've learned (and so on with the scare stories).
Bobby McFerrin is classically natured and nurtured and is willing to break
all kinds of rules. Elton John.
Sandra
<< I understand and agree that it's useful for us unschoolers to help
each
other resist all the schoolish assumptions that surround us, but if anyone in
my family ever gets the chance to take study music of any kind with any
Marsalis, I think it's safe to say we'd jump at it, and still consider
ourselves
very much unschoolers! >>
But you know in advance that he's not a classical music snob.
You know in advance he wouldn't tell your kids that rock and roll is just
noise, or that playing jazz would ruin their ear or that bluegrass will destroy
every technique they've learned (and so on with the scare stories).
Bobby McFerrin is classically natured and nurtured and is willing to break
all kinds of rules. Elton John.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Feb 16, 2004, at 8:25 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
and some exercises. It cost $20 and is excellent if you want just the
basics and want to work on them when you feel like it and at your own
pace.
I played cello up until high school - didn't touch it again until a few
years ago. I still just dabble -play around with it when I feel like
it. I have fun, but don't work at it and my skills are FAR below what
they were when I left off as a teenager.
My 13 plays around with it too - and is learning slowly, but surely,
mostly on her own, with a few pointers from me when she asks for them.
She watched the video when we first got it and it helped her with how
to hold the bow and how to position her fingers.
I can't remember how she learned to read music - all three of my kids
just do and I'm not sure how they picked it up. They learned to read
music just like they learned to read English - they were surrounded by
a music-rich environment, encouraged to enjoy it, to play around with
it, and their questions were answered and they were supported when they
showed an interest. The older two have had some music lessons - just a
few here and there over the years - nothing they stuck to for more than
a few sessions, but that gave them some basis for learning, I think. I
don't think that they could have spent years just passing by all the
music that is always sitting out on the piano and on the electronic
keyboard in our living room without learning how it worked. Rosie is 13
and has never had any music lessons of any kind, but can read music
enough to play the melody line of songs on the piano and is starting to
put some left hand with it and is learning to play the cello.
I ask myself, "What is the point of music lessons?" "Why do parents
want kids to play musical instruments, why do they think it is
important and are willing to spend money on it?"
The only answer I can come up with that makes sense for my family is
"to enjoy music." So that's what they're doing - right now. They don't
have to "take lessons" and be forced to "practice" now in order to
enjoy it later.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> And if someoneWe have a "How to Play the Cello" video that gives basic instruction
> might not think it up, he might see it watching cellists in person or
> on video.
and some exercises. It cost $20 and is excellent if you want just the
basics and want to work on them when you feel like it and at your own
pace.
I played cello up until high school - didn't touch it again until a few
years ago. I still just dabble -play around with it when I feel like
it. I have fun, but don't work at it and my skills are FAR below what
they were when I left off as a teenager.
My 13 plays around with it too - and is learning slowly, but surely,
mostly on her own, with a few pointers from me when she asks for them.
She watched the video when we first got it and it helped her with how
to hold the bow and how to position her fingers.
I can't remember how she learned to read music - all three of my kids
just do and I'm not sure how they picked it up. They learned to read
music just like they learned to read English - they were surrounded by
a music-rich environment, encouraged to enjoy it, to play around with
it, and their questions were answered and they were supported when they
showed an interest. The older two have had some music lessons - just a
few here and there over the years - nothing they stuck to for more than
a few sessions, but that gave them some basis for learning, I think. I
don't think that they could have spent years just passing by all the
music that is always sitting out on the piano and on the electronic
keyboard in our living room without learning how it worked. Rosie is 13
and has never had any music lessons of any kind, but can read music
enough to play the melody line of songs on the piano and is starting to
put some left hand with it and is learning to play the cello.
I ask myself, "What is the point of music lessons?" "Why do parents
want kids to play musical instruments, why do they think it is
important and are willing to spend money on it?"
The only answer I can come up with that makes sense for my family is
"to enjoy music." So that's what they're doing - right now. They don't
have to "take lessons" and be forced to "practice" now in order to
enjoy it later.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/04 11:46:20 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< I ask myself, "What is the point of music lessons?" "Why do parents
want kids to play musical instruments, why do they think it is
important and are willing to spend money on it?" >>
Used to be because the only music there was going to be was what people made
themselves. Secondarily, it was considered a religious duty to develop
musical talent if one had it, to use in worshiping God.
Now we have the leftovers of the strong tradition which doesn't have the
first purpose since the invention of the Victrola, and the second which doesn't
apply to everyone, not even all Christians or all obviously-musically-talented
people. But that's why it was pushed so hard in the 19th century. Plus it
showed breeding and culture. It's what rich families did, so poorer families
wanted it too.
Sandra
<< I ask myself, "What is the point of music lessons?" "Why do parents
want kids to play musical instruments, why do they think it is
important and are willing to spend money on it?" >>
Used to be because the only music there was going to be was what people made
themselves. Secondarily, it was considered a religious duty to develop
musical talent if one had it, to use in worshiping God.
Now we have the leftovers of the strong tradition which doesn't have the
first purpose since the invention of the Victrola, and the second which doesn't
apply to everyone, not even all Christians or all obviously-musically-talented
people. But that's why it was pushed so hard in the 19th century. Plus it
showed breeding and culture. It's what rich families did, so poorer families
wanted it too.
Sandra
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
(and willing to break rules! <eg>).
How about Billy Joel? And my kids sing Broadway show tunes weekly with
a voice coach who comes to our home, but he's also a French horn master and
professional opera singer, and could easily be a snob if he were so inclined.
Instead he is funny and self-deprecating and very creative with mental imagery
and stories to help get the message across. Both kids adore him. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But you know in advance that he's not a classical music snob.I love the way you phrase this -- classically natured and nurtured
> You know in advance he wouldn't tell your kids that rock and roll is just
> noise, or that playing jazz would ruin their ear or that bluegrass will
> destroy
> every technique they've learned (and so on with the scare stories).
>
> Bobby McFerrin is classically natured and nurtured and is willing to break
> all kinds of rules. Elton John.
>
(and willing to break rules! <eg>).
How about Billy Joel? And my kids sing Broadway show tunes weekly with
a voice coach who comes to our home, but he's also a French horn master and
professional opera singer, and could easily be a snob if he were so inclined.
Instead he is funny and self-deprecating and very creative with mental imagery
and stories to help get the message across. Both kids adore him. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
>But learning to sing operatically will NOTPam replies:
>at all in any way help someone be a folksinger, rock or blues singer.
>I would argue that it can help, quite a bit. The so called "classic"And classic training can be harmful. Here in Nova Scotia there's been mumblings in the past about classically trained kids entering and winning fiddle competitions. They have a different sound then those who learned from traditional fiddlers and the fear is that sound will be lost. I would think the same would apply with voice.
>trainings are useful--centuries of study have come up with useful tools.
>
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/04 12:06:45 PM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< How about Billy Joel? >>
Weird Al!
Who else "studied" music before going off in his own direction?
Sandra
<< How about Billy Joel? >>
Weird Al!
Who else "studied" music before going off in his own direction?
Sandra
Dawn Adams
Sandra writes:
dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>That thumb position for cellos had to come from somewhere. And if someoneExactly. Here in NS most of the Celtic music carried from Scotland was never written down. My grandfather was a self taught fiddler and bagpiper. He played tunes that were hundreds of years old in a style no 'properly' taught modern piper did. He was invited to Scotland a few years before his death because both the music and style had been lost there. I've always learned by ear and don't understand why people think reading music is essential to learning music. It's only the language used to describe music. Stories and storytelling exist without reading and writing don't they?
>might not think it up, he might see it watching cellists in person or on video.
>
>Paul McCartney learned to read and write music years after he was one of the
>most respected musicians in the world.
>
>Just as with language, you don't need to know how to read and write it to use
>it well.
dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lenhart
Pam replies:
would apply with voice.
That would be tragic. Those folk musics are part of the whole culture.
This is part of what happens when one kind of learning is favored over
another. This is how oral histories are lost because historians don't value
it unless someone wrote it down. -sigh-
Kelly
>I would argue that it can help, quite a bit. The so called "classic"Actually, I think that was me.
>trainings are useful--centuries of study have come up with useful tools.
>
>. They have a different sound then those who learned from traditionalfiddlers and the fear is that sound will be lost. I would >think the same
would apply with voice.
That would be tragic. Those folk musics are part of the whole culture.
This is part of what happens when one kind of learning is favored over
another. This is how oral histories are lost because historians don't value
it unless someone wrote it down. -sigh-
Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/04 12:11:36 PM, Wishbone@... writes:
<< And classic training can be harmful. Here in Nova Scotia there's been
mumblings in the past about classically trained kids entering and winning fiddle
competitions. They have a different sound then those who learned from
traditional fiddlers and the fear is that sound will be lost. I would think the same
would apply with voice. >>
I was in a hoity-toity voice session at a Renaissance music workshop one
summer at Taos Ski Valley, run by some of music department of New York City
College or someplace (it was a long time ago) and I was in a French chanson session,
doing fine until the teacher asked me to do something one-on-one with
someone, which I could do---I could read music, I could pronounce the French fine, I
was fine--and then she said "You sound like a folksinger."
She said it in a way intended to cut me to the quick and inspire me to "do it
right." And I know what I did that tipped her off, and I could have
prevented it had I been trying to impress her and get a scholarship to the college
where she taught or something [*snort*] but I was just there to play recorder,
and did the other stuff because it was a vocal-session time and I like two-part
stuff a lot. This was kind of the French equivalent of Thomas Morley
canzonets.
I wasn't insulted. I WAS a folksinger. And they were lucky to have me in
their little session. Most of the people there were older, wealthy geeks with
nothing to converse about at meals and when the final party came, I got out my
guitar and sang ballads and a couple of the teachers seemed dumbfoundedly
amazed. Something cool, interesting to people, entertaining, and they had never
studied it (nor even ever heard of it).
So anyway, it wouldn't have been advantageous to me to learn her way at the
cost of what I was already doing. If I were to do a serious French-chanson
thing I could remind myself to sing the one way instead of the other. It has to
do with how to move from one note to another, in an indirect fashion (aim
higher and settle on it) instead of sometimes a direct fashion which causes a
little voice break. Hard to describe, but it's a throat and head-position and
brain thing. <g>
Sandra
<< And classic training can be harmful. Here in Nova Scotia there's been
mumblings in the past about classically trained kids entering and winning fiddle
competitions. They have a different sound then those who learned from
traditional fiddlers and the fear is that sound will be lost. I would think the same
would apply with voice. >>
I was in a hoity-toity voice session at a Renaissance music workshop one
summer at Taos Ski Valley, run by some of music department of New York City
College or someplace (it was a long time ago) and I was in a French chanson session,
doing fine until the teacher asked me to do something one-on-one with
someone, which I could do---I could read music, I could pronounce the French fine, I
was fine--and then she said "You sound like a folksinger."
She said it in a way intended to cut me to the quick and inspire me to "do it
right." And I know what I did that tipped her off, and I could have
prevented it had I been trying to impress her and get a scholarship to the college
where she taught or something [*snort*] but I was just there to play recorder,
and did the other stuff because it was a vocal-session time and I like two-part
stuff a lot. This was kind of the French equivalent of Thomas Morley
canzonets.
I wasn't insulted. I WAS a folksinger. And they were lucky to have me in
their little session. Most of the people there were older, wealthy geeks with
nothing to converse about at meals and when the final party came, I got out my
guitar and sang ballads and a couple of the teachers seemed dumbfoundedly
amazed. Something cool, interesting to people, entertaining, and they had never
studied it (nor even ever heard of it).
So anyway, it wouldn't have been advantageous to me to learn her way at the
cost of what I was already doing. If I were to do a serious French-chanson
thing I could remind myself to sing the one way instead of the other. It has to
do with how to move from one note to another, in an indirect fashion (aim
higher and settle on it) instead of sometimes a direct fashion which causes a
little voice break. Hard to describe, but it's a throat and head-position and
brain thing. <g>
Sandra
Dawn Adams
jj writes:
Wynton Marsalis came to my mind. His musical genius developed in ALL
the ways being discussed, from natural gifts to family modeling and environment
to instruction, self-teaching, playing with peers, studying the classics, and
following his passion in many directions, including professional composing,
conducting, and yes, teaching others.
I understand and agree that it's useful for us unschoolers to help each
other resist all the schoolish assumptions that surround us, but if anyone in
my family ever gets the chance to take study music of any kind with any
Marsalis, I think it's safe to say we'd jump at it, and still consider ourselves
very much unschoolers! <g> JJ
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wynton Marsalis came to my mind. His musical genius developed in ALL
the ways being discussed, from natural gifts to family modeling and environment
to instruction, self-teaching, playing with peers, studying the classics, and
following his passion in many directions, including professional composing,
conducting, and yes, teaching others.
I understand and agree that it's useful for us unschoolers to help each
other resist all the schoolish assumptions that surround us, but if anyone in
my family ever gets the chance to take study music of any kind with any
Marsalis, I think it's safe to say we'd jump at it, and still consider ourselves
very much unschoolers! <g> JJ
>>>>>Though even he has his limitations. There was a good Atlantic Monthly article about his commitment to classical jazz to the exclusion of newer and more experimental forms. I think (I'll have to reread) the jist was that he was rather hidebound in his view of Jazz and maybe even a bit harmfull to the form as he did litte to move the music forward, audiences kept wanting to hear the classics, nothing new. Leads to the idea that best days of jazz are behind us. A result of the schoolish part of his music education? I don't know enough about him to know how accurate the article was.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/04 12:27:03 PM, Wishbone@... writes:
<< Stories and storytelling exist without reading and writing don't they? >>
Yes. Writing them down killed the tradition, pretty much.
There came to be "the right way" (what the collector had cleaned up and
published) and "the wrong way" (what still existed out in the real world).
With folk music, you get the double problem. Some thing still exist because
they were recorded in the 1920s and so weren't lost, but they exist mostly in
versions of that one recording, which is both natural and somewhat unnatural.
And 78 rpm records were limited to just a few minutes (five? I don't know
how long at max, anyone know?) and so some kinds of songs weren't preserved
that way and some were shortened to fit.
Sandra
<< Stories and storytelling exist without reading and writing don't they? >>
Yes. Writing them down killed the tradition, pretty much.
There came to be "the right way" (what the collector had cleaned up and
published) and "the wrong way" (what still existed out in the real world).
With folk music, you get the double problem. Some thing still exist because
they were recorded in the 1920s and so weren't lost, but they exist mostly in
versions of that one recording, which is both natural and somewhat unnatural.
And 78 rpm records were limited to just a few minutes (five? I don't know
how long at max, anyone know?) and so some kinds of songs weren't preserved
that way and some were shortened to fit.
Sandra
Dawn Adams
Sandra writes:
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I was in a hoity-toity voice session at a Renaissance music workshop oneArgh. I think people use 'folksinger' as code for untrained sometimes. Nevermind that folksinging involves centuries of tradition and 'training' from birth at times. They understand that the music and words are passed on but don't think that inflections and tones and harmonies and techniques are passed on as well? So it's not formal training. The conflict I mentioned between classically trained fiddlers and the traditional ones is a recognition, I think, that traditional is not untrained but carries a definate sound and intent of its own instead of traditional being some sort of void that has to be filled or better, a rough spot that needs polishing.
>summer at Taos Ski Valley, run by some of music department of New York City
>College or someplace (it was a long time ago) and I was in a French chanson session,
>doing fine until the teacher asked me to do something one-on-one with
>someone, which I could do---I could read music, I could pronounce the French fine, I
>was fine--and then she said "You sound like a folksinger."
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
Prince is a virtuoso on piano and guitar, and I think he plays a bunch of
other stuff as well. Having been to one of his concerts a few years ago, the
variety of styles that he plays in is huge. I think he learned much of his
stuff from his father, but trying to access his website I have become
trapped in a weird universe that won�t seem to delete. So I have to send
this and then turn off my computer.
Robyn L. Coburn
Who else "studied" music before going off in his own direction?
---
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other stuff as well. Having been to one of his concerts a few years ago, the
variety of styles that he plays in is huge. I think he learned much of his
stuff from his father, but trying to access his website I have become
trapped in a weird universe that won�t seem to delete. So I have to send
this and then turn off my computer.
Robyn L. Coburn
Who else "studied" music before going off in his own direction?
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[email protected]
Wishbone@... writes:
a result of the reverse snobbishness of the reviewer, trying to persuade
himself and others that Marsalis was too straight, too schooled, to be "real" and
natural like the follow-our-own-muse radicals.
I see that in reading instruction and cooking and so many other areas,
even in types of home education. It's exactly that kind of pronouncement (in
either direction, for or against formal study, and made to judge others
rather than only to say what's right for oneself) that I don't think serves
individual unschoolers well. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Though even he has his limitations. There was a good Atlantic MonthlyI dunno either, didn't see it, but I'm thinking it also *could* be
> article about his commitment to classical jazz to the exclusion of newer and more
> experimental forms. I think (I'll have to reread) the jist was that he was
> rather hidebound in his view of Jazz and maybe even a bit harmfull to the form
> as he did litte to move the music forward, audiences kept wanting to hear the
> classics, nothing new. Leads to the idea that best days of jazz are behind
> us. A result of the schoolish part of his music education? I don't know
> enough about him to know how accurate the article was.
>
>
a result of the reverse snobbishness of the reviewer, trying to persuade
himself and others that Marsalis was too straight, too schooled, to be "real" and
natural like the follow-our-own-muse radicals.
I see that in reading instruction and cooking and so many other areas,
even in types of home education. It's exactly that kind of pronouncement (in
either direction, for or against formal study, and made to judge others
rather than only to say what's right for oneself) that I don't think serves
individual unschoolers well. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Feb 16, 2004, at 9:17 AM, Kelly Lenhart wrote:
If I want to do math, I should study math, not re-invent mathematics???
Children who are learning math concepts do need to "re-invent" them.
This is the entire basis of "constructivist" mathematics and is, imo,
also the basis of unschooling mathematics -- children "construct" their
own knowledge base.
NOT in a vacuum, of course. But not by "studying mathematics" (in the
conventional sense), either.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> If I want to sing opera, I should study opera,Is this statement generally true?
> not re-invent operatic singing.
If I want to do math, I should study math, not re-invent mathematics???
Children who are learning math concepts do need to "re-invent" them.
This is the entire basis of "constructivist" mathematics and is, imo,
also the basis of unschooling mathematics -- children "construct" their
own knowledge base.
NOT in a vacuum, of course. But not by "studying mathematics" (in the
conventional sense), either.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Kelly Lenhart
>> If I want to sing opera, I should study opera,Math as we recognize it is really just the symbols for recording it. The
>> not re-invent operatic singing.
>Is this statement generally true?
>If I want to do math, I should study math, not re-invent mathematics???
short hand if you will. I would say that we shouldn't bother re-inventing
the shorthand, plus no one would know what we were talking about. But each
of us, as you say, re-invents the concepts behind the short hand.
Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/04 1:52:00 PM, dezigna@... writes:
<< trying to access his website I have become
trapped in a weird universe >>
Not suprising.
Anyone interested in Prince or weird universes should definitely rent/borrow
a DVD/video called An Evening with Kevin Smith and watch the section on Prince
especially. FASCINATING story, well told, you'll love Kevin Smith after you
watch that even if you haven't ever warmed up to Dogma or Jay & Silent Bob.
Sandra
<< trying to access his website I have become
trapped in a weird universe >>
Not suprising.
Anyone interested in Prince or weird universes should definitely rent/borrow
a DVD/video called An Evening with Kevin Smith and watch the section on Prince
especially. FASCINATING story, well told, you'll love Kevin Smith after you
watch that even if you haven't ever warmed up to Dogma or Jay & Silent Bob.
Sandra