Discipline question...
Erika Nunn
Hello all.
I have been religiously reading the posts now for at least a month (or
two?). I was a "TV is evil" person about a month (or two) ago. I was also
the one who said that I would start "letting my kids watch all the TV they
want and eat all the crappy foods they want - ha ha." Before I found your
post, I was at a point with unschooling/parenting where I KNEW it had to get
better, and I KNEW that I just wasn't doing something right, but I had not
clue what that was. Well it has all been clicking for me everyday since
then as I loosen up more and more - and my children are the happiest they
have ever been in their short lives (they are 3 and 4). I just wanted to
tell you guys "thank you" for doing this post, and that it has changed all
of our lives dramatically.
Now on to my question. I haven't read anything about this since I have been
here, unless I somehow completely missed something. I will try to keep it
short.
My husband just got back from Missouri. He noticed how much more "quiet"
his nieces and nephews were. They weren't constantly asking questions,
debating with him and their parents, etc. I have always encouraged my kids
to stand up for themselves, work on their skills with talking (debating)
with other people. I believe that my husband thinks that they are too
"bold" and "spoiled" for their age. Yes, our children are quite headstrong
and talk a lot, but they are not "bratty." But I think to him they are
because they aren't quietly amusing themselves. Are you with me still? :)
I then made mention later during another conversation that I did not agree
with sending your child to put their nose in a corner for discipline
measures. This kind of riled him up because doing that isn't "that bad!"
He then went into the whole speech of "Parents have been
discipling/spanking/putting the nose in the corner with their kids for 100's
of years! And now they say how 'bad' it is!!" I am sure you have heard
that argument before.
I understand where my husband is coming from (I don't agree with him
though). He was raised that way, so what is wrong with it now (his line of
thinking)? I think he feels like our kids run all over us. I also think
that after being with his relative's kids who are so "well behaved" and
"quiet," that he is worried that we have "no control" over our kids.
One example. In the car we were driving. My son had a constant barrage of
questions about everything. To me they were legitimate 4-year-old
questions. To my husband (who was tired) they were annoying and he didn't
understand why my son just couldn't be quiet so us adults could talk.
Another example. My two kids get in a fight. I take the time to ask each
one what happened (just started separating them to do that - good advice),
and then discuss better ways to handle it, another way to say something,
etc. My husband sometimes makes the effort to deal with it, but other times
he just gets mad at them or will send the one (who appears) to be the
aggressor into time out.
So the problem is, I never really know how to get through to my husband that
my son isn't annoying. He is being four. This is where he is supposed to
be. I never know how to answer that "the discipline has been going on for
100's of years" statement. And something tells me that some of you may have
some good answers, or at least lead me to some website that has more
information. In addition, my husband often makes note that I am very
"defensive" when it comes to discussing our children, and am not "open
minded" to "different" was of disciplining them. I don't think I am being
defensive, I just don't agree with him.
Any help is appreciated. And has anybody else had very different ideas
regarding discipline with their spouses, and how did you handle it?
(I think I failed on keeping it short.)
Thank you!
Erika :)
_________________________________________________________________
Plan your next US getaway to one of the super destinations here.
http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx
I have been religiously reading the posts now for at least a month (or
two?). I was a "TV is evil" person about a month (or two) ago. I was also
the one who said that I would start "letting my kids watch all the TV they
want and eat all the crappy foods they want - ha ha." Before I found your
post, I was at a point with unschooling/parenting where I KNEW it had to get
better, and I KNEW that I just wasn't doing something right, but I had not
clue what that was. Well it has all been clicking for me everyday since
then as I loosen up more and more - and my children are the happiest they
have ever been in their short lives (they are 3 and 4). I just wanted to
tell you guys "thank you" for doing this post, and that it has changed all
of our lives dramatically.
Now on to my question. I haven't read anything about this since I have been
here, unless I somehow completely missed something. I will try to keep it
short.
My husband just got back from Missouri. He noticed how much more "quiet"
his nieces and nephews were. They weren't constantly asking questions,
debating with him and their parents, etc. I have always encouraged my kids
to stand up for themselves, work on their skills with talking (debating)
with other people. I believe that my husband thinks that they are too
"bold" and "spoiled" for their age. Yes, our children are quite headstrong
and talk a lot, but they are not "bratty." But I think to him they are
because they aren't quietly amusing themselves. Are you with me still? :)
I then made mention later during another conversation that I did not agree
with sending your child to put their nose in a corner for discipline
measures. This kind of riled him up because doing that isn't "that bad!"
He then went into the whole speech of "Parents have been
discipling/spanking/putting the nose in the corner with their kids for 100's
of years! And now they say how 'bad' it is!!" I am sure you have heard
that argument before.
I understand where my husband is coming from (I don't agree with him
though). He was raised that way, so what is wrong with it now (his line of
thinking)? I think he feels like our kids run all over us. I also think
that after being with his relative's kids who are so "well behaved" and
"quiet," that he is worried that we have "no control" over our kids.
One example. In the car we were driving. My son had a constant barrage of
questions about everything. To me they were legitimate 4-year-old
questions. To my husband (who was tired) they were annoying and he didn't
understand why my son just couldn't be quiet so us adults could talk.
Another example. My two kids get in a fight. I take the time to ask each
one what happened (just started separating them to do that - good advice),
and then discuss better ways to handle it, another way to say something,
etc. My husband sometimes makes the effort to deal with it, but other times
he just gets mad at them or will send the one (who appears) to be the
aggressor into time out.
So the problem is, I never really know how to get through to my husband that
my son isn't annoying. He is being four. This is where he is supposed to
be. I never know how to answer that "the discipline has been going on for
100's of years" statement. And something tells me that some of you may have
some good answers, or at least lead me to some website that has more
information. In addition, my husband often makes note that I am very
"defensive" when it comes to discussing our children, and am not "open
minded" to "different" was of disciplining them. I don't think I am being
defensive, I just don't agree with him.
Any help is appreciated. And has anybody else had very different ideas
regarding discipline with their spouses, and how did you handle it?
(I think I failed on keeping it short.)
Thank you!
Erika :)
_________________________________________________________________
Plan your next US getaway to one of the super destinations here.
http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/10/04 5:07:30 PM, erikanunn@... writes:
<< In addition, my husband often makes note that I am very
"defensive" when it comes to discussing our children, and am not "open
minded" to "different" was of disciplining them. >>
Sounds like he's defending hundreds of years of not-different and you're the
one being open minded.
Gradually work toward where you want to be.
Honestly, your kids are young enough to forget most of the corner-standing
nonsense if you make somewhat light of it now and keep it from being too
frequent. Your husband will grow out of it, I bet.
"Good" kids who are very quiet sometimes turn into very quiet adults, who
aren't considered good, they're considered fish-like, pancakes, not easily hired
or promoted, don't easily defend their own territory/family/children, don't
express themselves, don't give speeches, don't BE much except quiet.
I bet he doesn't envision dull-eyed non-communicative adults when he thinks
of his own children grown.
Sandra
<< In addition, my husband often makes note that I am very
"defensive" when it comes to discussing our children, and am not "open
minded" to "different" was of disciplining them. >>
Sounds like he's defending hundreds of years of not-different and you're the
one being open minded.
Gradually work toward where you want to be.
Honestly, your kids are young enough to forget most of the corner-standing
nonsense if you make somewhat light of it now and keep it from being too
frequent. Your husband will grow out of it, I bet.
"Good" kids who are very quiet sometimes turn into very quiet adults, who
aren't considered good, they're considered fish-like, pancakes, not easily hired
or promoted, don't easily defend their own territory/family/children, don't
express themselves, don't give speeches, don't BE much except quiet.
I bet he doesn't envision dull-eyed non-communicative adults when he thinks
of his own children grown.
Sandra
TreeGoddess
Hmmmm.... so he would prefer mute lumps for children who are too scared
of him to vocalize their natural curiosities and engage in conversions
with him?
-Tracy-
of him to vocalize their natural curiosities and engage in conversions
with him?
-Tracy-
On Feb 10, 2004, at 12:50 PM, Erika Nunn wrote:
> My husband just got back from Missouri. He noticed how much more
> "quiet" his nieces and nephews were. They weren't constantly asking
> questions, debating with him and their parents, etc. I have always
> encouraged my kids to stand up for themselves, work on their skills
> with talking (debating) with other people. I believe that my husband
> thinks that they are too "bold" and "spoiled" for their age. Yes, our
> children are quite headstrong and talk a lot, but they are not
> "bratty." But I think to him they are because they aren't quietly
> amusing themselves.
Dawn Adams
Erika writes:
Read a lot. Get a ton of positive disciplining books from the library and research. If nothing else it helps you hold to your convictions...And, maybe your kids do need a little more help and you could get some useful strategies. One thing though...I find trying to hold a private chat in a shared family space like a car is not going to work, ever. A great time for family chats though.
But help your husband too. You said a couple of times that he was tired. Maybe part of his frustration is that? Be kind and generous...It comes back to you eventually. I started spreading my unschooling attitude to my DH and it's made a big difference.
But...Those nieces and nephews who are quiet now will test their boundaries at some time. Likely when they're teenagers or older and the consequences get more dire. You're letting your kids spread their wings and excercise choice now when sex, drugs and other serious risks aren't a factor. By the time adolescence comes they'll hopefully be in a much stronger position to buck any peer pressure and make their own decisions. Maybe let your husband know that this might be a long term goal of yours?
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>----- Any help is appreciated. And has anybody else had very different ideasA lot of your DH's problems seem to crop up when he's tired. When one or the other of me and DH is tired (did that make any grammatical sense, ugh, I'm tired right now) we do a tag team thing. If he's cranky I put a hand on his arm and tell him to go have a rest or read or something and I handle it. Likewise, he'll send me to my room if I'm being a tyrannical crank.
>regarding discipline with their spouses, and how did you handle it?
Read a lot. Get a ton of positive disciplining books from the library and research. If nothing else it helps you hold to your convictions...And, maybe your kids do need a little more help and you could get some useful strategies. One thing though...I find trying to hold a private chat in a shared family space like a car is not going to work, ever. A great time for family chats though.
But help your husband too. You said a couple of times that he was tired. Maybe part of his frustration is that? Be kind and generous...It comes back to you eventually. I started spreading my unschooling attitude to my DH and it's made a big difference.
But...Those nieces and nephews who are quiet now will test their boundaries at some time. Likely when they're teenagers or older and the consequences get more dire. You're letting your kids spread their wings and excercise choice now when sex, drugs and other serious risks aren't a factor. By the time adolescence comes they'll hopefully be in a much stronger position to buck any peer pressure and make their own decisions. Maybe let your husband know that this might be a long term goal of yours?
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/10/04 6:14:27 PM, Wishbone@... writes:
<< One thing though...I find trying to hold a private chat in a shared family
space like a car is not going to work, ever. >>
My husband forgets to include children in conversations. He's gotten angry
with me twice in the past few months because I pointed out that he was talking
to me about something work-related (he's an engineer and it will be a story
about management or projects or military contracts) that the kids present (once
Holly, once Holly and her friend) could NOT follow and cared nothing about.
I told him we should change the subject and he took it as ME being bored or
not caring about his work, instead of me wanting to include the other people.
After the second time I talked to him later and explained my reasoning and I
doubt it will happen anymore. He didn't mean to be rude, he just isn't as
used to including the kids as I am.
Sandra
<< One thing though...I find trying to hold a private chat in a shared family
space like a car is not going to work, ever. >>
My husband forgets to include children in conversations. He's gotten angry
with me twice in the past few months because I pointed out that he was talking
to me about something work-related (he's an engineer and it will be a story
about management or projects or military contracts) that the kids present (once
Holly, once Holly and her friend) could NOT follow and cared nothing about.
I told him we should change the subject and he took it as ME being bored or
not caring about his work, instead of me wanting to include the other people.
After the second time I talked to him later and explained my reasoning and I
doubt it will happen anymore. He didn't mean to be rude, he just isn't as
used to including the kids as I am.
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
<<So the problem is, I never really know how to get through to my husband
that
my son isn't annoying. He is being four. This is where he is supposed to
be. I never know how to answer that "the discipline has been going on for
100's of years" statement. And something tells me that some of you may have
some good answers, or at least lead me to some website that has more
information. In addition, my husband often makes note that I am very
"defensive" when it comes to discussing our children, and am not "open
minded" to "different" was of disciplining them. I don't think I am being
defensive, I just don't agree with him.
Any help is appreciated. And has anybody else had very different ideas
regarding discipline with their spouses, and how did you handle it?>>
It sounds like you are not in agreement on the Principles that you are
living by.
I found that giving James (dh) whole books or lectures didn�t help him to
get it, but made him feel defensive and overwhelmed. Instead I forward some
pithy e-mails and the occasional online article.
The second suggestion I have is by all means bring him to the conference so
that he can see the other kids, and get a glimpse into the wonderful future
in store for him with the older ones. It took the conference for it to
crystallize for me that unschooled younger children do not look/behave like
traditionally parented younger children. There is a greater tolerance (even
encouragement) for wildness and spiritedness and fearlessness in the littler
ones, who miraculously become older children with genuine self control and
charm. The focus here is on finding ways to facilitate the spirited play,
without it being too exhausting and infuriating for everyone around.
Jayn (4) does things that upset my dh way more than they do me, like hitting
him sometimes, telling us to �shoo�, and saying �Hummph� turning up her
nose. He can�t stand the hitting and what he calls meanness and ingratitude.
I think it is mostly her melting down temporarily. He starts ranting about
how we �have tried your way and it isn�t working� and that we need to find
something else to �do� - �we respect her but she doesn�t respect us�. Some
of his suggestions are punishments � like take a toy away. I find if I try
to argue with him it just accelerates and turns into an argument about me
not supporting him, or my character defects, and other
unrelated-to-the-situation stuff. It is hard not to argue because I am so
definitely opposed to all of his �suggestions�. However I have come to
realize that he is *not* actually making genuine or serious suggestions,
more like venting his frustration. If I let him go on, he starts hearing
himself and how dopey his ideas are. I don�t believe he ever seriously
intends to implement any of it since he just winds down and ends up being
just as sweet to Jayn as always. So I try to limit my comments to how she is
just 4, and reassure him that this is normal stuff. It is hard for me not to
jump to the defense of all things unschooling, but in this situation, with a
dh who does get it and sometimes just needs to remind himself, keeping still
is best.
Sometimes even my wonderful dh calls what we are doing, �doing nothing�
about behavior issues. It can look like nothing compared to the active
controlling and punishing of traditional parenting.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that
my son isn't annoying. He is being four. This is where he is supposed to
be. I never know how to answer that "the discipline has been going on for
100's of years" statement. And something tells me that some of you may have
some good answers, or at least lead me to some website that has more
information. In addition, my husband often makes note that I am very
"defensive" when it comes to discussing our children, and am not "open
minded" to "different" was of disciplining them. I don't think I am being
defensive, I just don't agree with him.
Any help is appreciated. And has anybody else had very different ideas
regarding discipline with their spouses, and how did you handle it?>>
It sounds like you are not in agreement on the Principles that you are
living by.
I found that giving James (dh) whole books or lectures didn�t help him to
get it, but made him feel defensive and overwhelmed. Instead I forward some
pithy e-mails and the occasional online article.
The second suggestion I have is by all means bring him to the conference so
that he can see the other kids, and get a glimpse into the wonderful future
in store for him with the older ones. It took the conference for it to
crystallize for me that unschooled younger children do not look/behave like
traditionally parented younger children. There is a greater tolerance (even
encouragement) for wildness and spiritedness and fearlessness in the littler
ones, who miraculously become older children with genuine self control and
charm. The focus here is on finding ways to facilitate the spirited play,
without it being too exhausting and infuriating for everyone around.
Jayn (4) does things that upset my dh way more than they do me, like hitting
him sometimes, telling us to �shoo�, and saying �Hummph� turning up her
nose. He can�t stand the hitting and what he calls meanness and ingratitude.
I think it is mostly her melting down temporarily. He starts ranting about
how we �have tried your way and it isn�t working� and that we need to find
something else to �do� - �we respect her but she doesn�t respect us�. Some
of his suggestions are punishments � like take a toy away. I find if I try
to argue with him it just accelerates and turns into an argument about me
not supporting him, or my character defects, and other
unrelated-to-the-situation stuff. It is hard not to argue because I am so
definitely opposed to all of his �suggestions�. However I have come to
realize that he is *not* actually making genuine or serious suggestions,
more like venting his frustration. If I let him go on, he starts hearing
himself and how dopey his ideas are. I don�t believe he ever seriously
intends to implement any of it since he just winds down and ends up being
just as sweet to Jayn as always. So I try to limit my comments to how she is
just 4, and reassure him that this is normal stuff. It is hard for me not to
jump to the defense of all things unschooling, but in this situation, with a
dh who does get it and sometimes just needs to remind himself, keeping still
is best.
Sometimes even my wonderful dh calls what we are doing, �doing nothing�
about behavior issues. It can look like nothing compared to the active
controlling and punishing of traditional parenting.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/10/2004 6:07:19 PM Central Standard Time,
erikanunn@... writes:
quiet lock yourself in the school bathroom kid to get us on this journey. At 16 he
still says what he thinks and I love him for it.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
erikanunn@... writes:
> He noticed how much more "quiet"Some kids are just quieter and easier going than others. It took our not
> his nieces and nephews were. They weren't constantly asking questions,
> debating with him and their parents, etc
quiet lock yourself in the school bathroom kid to get us on this journey. At 16 he
still says what he thinks and I love him for it.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/10/04 9:34:45 PM, dezigna@... writes:
<< Jayn (4) does things that upset my dh way more than they do me, like
hitting
him sometimes, telling us to “shoo”, and saying “Hummph” turning up her
nose. >>
That wuld upset me too. I would talk to her, even if it didn't upset me, and
tell her that was not only hurting her dad's feelings, but could hurt her own
happy freedoms.
<<He can’t stand the hitting and what he calls meanness and ingratitude.>>
I would think of it as just discourtesy, and I would keep at her about being
kind to people, and either doing nice things or not doing anything.
<< He starts ranting about
how we “have tried your way and it isn’t working” and that we need to find
something else to “do” - “we respect her but she doesn’t respect us”. >>
If he's right in even the last way, something's wrong. She might just grow
out of it, but it's not fair to him to have to wait through the experiment in
discomfort.
<<However I have come to
realize that he is *not* actually making genuine or serious suggestions,
more like venting his frustration. >>
I would try to help him not feel frustrated.
-=-So I try to limit my comments to how she is just 4, and reassure him that
this is normal stuff. . . .Sometimes even my wonderful dh calls what we are
doing, “doing nothing” about behavior issues.-=-
I don't think she should be hitting, or saying "shoo" or "Harumph." if she
has those from a book, maybe talk to her about how books are written so people
can think of how the characters in the book felt when someone was mean to
them. But it's not a way to treat real people with feelings. And remind her her
dad is nice to her, maybe, and that she should be as nice to him as she can
be, and say "Excuse me" instead of "shoo" or say "I don't want to do that right
now" instead of hitting.
It doesn't seem like an unschooling or choice-making situation to me, and
there's a danger that your husband will lose patience with meanness and not want
to proceed with unschooling if you call this unschooling.
I'm not recommending punishments, I'm recommending helping her be mindful and
aware.
Sandra
<< Jayn (4) does things that upset my dh way more than they do me, like
hitting
him sometimes, telling us to “shoo”, and saying “Hummph” turning up her
nose. >>
That wuld upset me too. I would talk to her, even if it didn't upset me, and
tell her that was not only hurting her dad's feelings, but could hurt her own
happy freedoms.
<<He can’t stand the hitting and what he calls meanness and ingratitude.>>
I would think of it as just discourtesy, and I would keep at her about being
kind to people, and either doing nice things or not doing anything.
<< He starts ranting about
how we “have tried your way and it isn’t working” and that we need to find
something else to “do” - “we respect her but she doesn’t respect us”. >>
If he's right in even the last way, something's wrong. She might just grow
out of it, but it's not fair to him to have to wait through the experiment in
discomfort.
<<However I have come to
realize that he is *not* actually making genuine or serious suggestions,
more like venting his frustration. >>
I would try to help him not feel frustrated.
-=-So I try to limit my comments to how she is just 4, and reassure him that
this is normal stuff. . . .Sometimes even my wonderful dh calls what we are
doing, “doing nothing” about behavior issues.-=-
I don't think she should be hitting, or saying "shoo" or "Harumph." if she
has those from a book, maybe talk to her about how books are written so people
can think of how the characters in the book felt when someone was mean to
them. But it's not a way to treat real people with feelings. And remind her her
dad is nice to her, maybe, and that she should be as nice to him as she can
be, and say "Excuse me" instead of "shoo" or say "I don't want to do that right
now" instead of hitting.
It doesn't seem like an unschooling or choice-making situation to me, and
there's a danger that your husband will lose patience with meanness and not want
to proceed with unschooling if you call this unschooling.
I'm not recommending punishments, I'm recommending helping her be mindful and
aware.
Sandra
24hrmom
<<I'm not recommending punishments, I'm recommending helping her be mindful and aware.>>
I think it's worth pointing out that helping kids to be mindful and aware of their behaviour and how it makes others feel is a longer-term project. :) Punishments usually work pretty quickly to change the behaviour right now, but they don't help much in the long-term; if you're not there to punish, they will likely see it as an opportunity to behave however they wish with no regard for others' feelings - because that was never discussed.
<<And remind her her dad is nice to her, maybe, and that she should be as nice to him as she can be, and say "Excuse me" instead of "shoo" or say "I don't want to do that right now" instead of hitting.>>
It helps to be aware of their frustration level. If it's some words or action they use daily that is hurting others' feelings, and you can give them another set of words that is more "acceptable" and explain why, I don't think it will take too long for them to figure it out with a few reminders.
If however, the behaviour is the result of frustration, I think it takes more time and experience for them to learn the skills to monitor their words and actions and to consider how their words and actions will make others feel *before* reacting. And to remember that even if you think it's nothing worth getting frustrated over, if they are, they are. You have to start there.
<<She might just grow out of it, but it's not fair to him to have to wait through the experiment in discomfort.>>
<<I would try to help him not feel frustrated.>>
I've kind of work it from both ends. I explain to my husband, in private, how his words and/or actions could have contributed to the incident or to the escalation of the incident. Trying to show him what the situation probably looked like through their eyes, and why they reacted as they did (and age and experience is a factor here). And we might discuss how he could get his point across next time without causing so much friction or frustration for him or them.
And I also speak with the kids, individually, about how their words and/or actions were probably seen and felt through his eyes. And what they might say or do in a similar situation in the future so they can get their point across without inadvertently hurting the feelings of others.
Oh, and once in a while letting dh know that I am talking with them regularly about these issues ... since you don't normally see behaviour changes overnight! So he doesn't think I'm just blowing off his reaction and feelings. It also helps him to see that our oldest (he's almost 12) is really starting to come into his own in this area. No more big tantrums with seemingly minor provocation, the self-confidence to express himself and his frustration to his dad (and me!) without getting angry, the ability to say first when he's getting angry or frustrated and to warn that he'll leave the room if the discussion continues in the same vein etc. He's even taken to telling his younger brother and sister that they are lucky he's skilled at anger management when they are frustrating him. :) He used to lash out first, talk later.
It certainly takes more time than sending them into timeout or taking away "privileges", but I know they learn a whole lot more about themselves and others. And it helps my dh to see and treat them like human beings, not "just kids".
Pam L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think it's worth pointing out that helping kids to be mindful and aware of their behaviour and how it makes others feel is a longer-term project. :) Punishments usually work pretty quickly to change the behaviour right now, but they don't help much in the long-term; if you're not there to punish, they will likely see it as an opportunity to behave however they wish with no regard for others' feelings - because that was never discussed.
<<And remind her her dad is nice to her, maybe, and that she should be as nice to him as she can be, and say "Excuse me" instead of "shoo" or say "I don't want to do that right now" instead of hitting.>>
It helps to be aware of their frustration level. If it's some words or action they use daily that is hurting others' feelings, and you can give them another set of words that is more "acceptable" and explain why, I don't think it will take too long for them to figure it out with a few reminders.
If however, the behaviour is the result of frustration, I think it takes more time and experience for them to learn the skills to monitor their words and actions and to consider how their words and actions will make others feel *before* reacting. And to remember that even if you think it's nothing worth getting frustrated over, if they are, they are. You have to start there.
<<She might just grow out of it, but it's not fair to him to have to wait through the experiment in discomfort.>>
<<I would try to help him not feel frustrated.>>
I've kind of work it from both ends. I explain to my husband, in private, how his words and/or actions could have contributed to the incident or to the escalation of the incident. Trying to show him what the situation probably looked like through their eyes, and why they reacted as they did (and age and experience is a factor here). And we might discuss how he could get his point across next time without causing so much friction or frustration for him or them.
And I also speak with the kids, individually, about how their words and/or actions were probably seen and felt through his eyes. And what they might say or do in a similar situation in the future so they can get their point across without inadvertently hurting the feelings of others.
Oh, and once in a while letting dh know that I am talking with them regularly about these issues ... since you don't normally see behaviour changes overnight! So he doesn't think I'm just blowing off his reaction and feelings. It also helps him to see that our oldest (he's almost 12) is really starting to come into his own in this area. No more big tantrums with seemingly minor provocation, the self-confidence to express himself and his frustration to his dad (and me!) without getting angry, the ability to say first when he's getting angry or frustrated and to warn that he'll leave the room if the discussion continues in the same vein etc. He's even taken to telling his younger brother and sister that they are lucky he's skilled at anger management when they are frustrating him. :) He used to lash out first, talk later.
It certainly takes more time than sending them into timeout or taking away "privileges", but I know they learn a whole lot more about themselves and others. And it helps my dh to see and treat them like human beings, not "just kids".
Pam L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
Sandra writes:
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>It doesn't seem like an unschooling or choice-making situation to me, andDo you think that with new unschoolers the unschooling sometimes pre-empts parenting or get mistaken for parenting? I just posted about how I'm working on my parenting to make a good foundation for unschooling but there are times I don't know where one ends and the other begins.
>there's a danger that your husband will lose patience with meanness and not want
>to proceed with unschooling if you call this unschooling.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa H
Dawn wrote:
I'm working on my parenting to make a good foundation for unschooling but there are times I don't know where one ends and the other begins.
***
I don't see a clear distinction between parenting and unschooling. For me both are about respectful relationships with my children, for that matter reflective of relationships with all people in general.
As for "correcting" a childs hurumpf or shoey...I will sometimes let my kids know that I don't want to be spoken to in a certain way and ask them to reframe their comment in a way that I can understand. The same way I might respectfully ask my dh not to shout at me as I can't hear what he is saying. "You speak so loud, I can't hear what you are saying."
I think it's about respectful communication. For instance, "I really want to understand what you mean, could you please say it again. Perhaps using different words."
There are other times, that i just need to accept that in the moment the other person is frustrated and not expressing themself in a way that I would prefer - but we're human beings, make mistakes and when i am trully centered i can give them room to poor communicators without it affecting my perception of them (or myself) on the whole.
I feel this is all so important to the whole realm of unschooling. We do alot of problem solving in our family, giving everyone a chance to express their feelings and giving everyone a chance to respond with their ideas on making things work better for everyone.
btw - i hardly use the word unschooling to my husband. i do however express my need to include everyone in conversations that affect us all and focus on coming to solutions that work for everyone involved. when we stick to it - it always, always works...sometimes it just takes time, and sometimes not everyone is ready or willing to work on the solution in that moment. but we get better and better at making sure everyone trully feels comfortable with the solutions and noone feels coerced or manipulated. AND - the kids inevitably come up with the best solutions - those that i or my husband would never think of myself - as we are so over conditioned.
Lisa H.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm working on my parenting to make a good foundation for unschooling but there are times I don't know where one ends and the other begins.
***
I don't see a clear distinction between parenting and unschooling. For me both are about respectful relationships with my children, for that matter reflective of relationships with all people in general.
As for "correcting" a childs hurumpf or shoey...I will sometimes let my kids know that I don't want to be spoken to in a certain way and ask them to reframe their comment in a way that I can understand. The same way I might respectfully ask my dh not to shout at me as I can't hear what he is saying. "You speak so loud, I can't hear what you are saying."
I think it's about respectful communication. For instance, "I really want to understand what you mean, could you please say it again. Perhaps using different words."
There are other times, that i just need to accept that in the moment the other person is frustrated and not expressing themself in a way that I would prefer - but we're human beings, make mistakes and when i am trully centered i can give them room to poor communicators without it affecting my perception of them (or myself) on the whole.
I feel this is all so important to the whole realm of unschooling. We do alot of problem solving in our family, giving everyone a chance to express their feelings and giving everyone a chance to respond with their ideas on making things work better for everyone.
btw - i hardly use the word unschooling to my husband. i do however express my need to include everyone in conversations that affect us all and focus on coming to solutions that work for everyone involved. when we stick to it - it always, always works...sometimes it just takes time, and sometimes not everyone is ready or willing to work on the solution in that moment. but we get better and better at making sure everyone trully feels comfortable with the solutions and noone feels coerced or manipulated. AND - the kids inevitably come up with the best solutions - those that i or my husband would never think of myself - as we are so over conditioned.
Lisa H.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<I would talk to her, even if it didn't upset me, and
tell her that was not only hurting her dad's feelings, but could hurt her
own
happy freedoms���
I would think of it as just discourtesy, and I would keep at her about being
kind to people, and either doing nice things or not doing anything����
I would try to help him not feel frustrated���.
And remind her her dad is nice to her, maybe, and that she should be as nice
to him as she can be, and say "Excuse me" instead of "shoo" or say "I don't
want to do that right
now" instead of hitting.>>
These are all the things that I am doing, along with offering her
alternative verbal strategies. These are exactly the kind of things that can
look like �doing nothing� to someone who parents traditionally, who has not
made the shift, or does not have the desire to go towards unschooling and
respectful parenting. Sometimes it is a melt down from frustration or
tiredness situation, which I believe she will grow out of � or at least grow
out of having that kind of reaction to her frustrations.
<<there's a danger that your husband will lose patience with meanness and
not want
to proceed with unschooling if you call this unschooling.>>
The point I was trying to make was that dh has a need to talk out his hurt
feelings and if I short circuit his process by arguing with him, he just
gets frustrated with me as well. If allowed to talk it through he returns to
calm appreciation of all of the above type of procedures, and kind of sighs
about it. Jayn is 4, my dh and I are 42. I think an adult is supposed to be
able to rise above some of the stuff a 4 year old will do just because they
are tired, frustrated, hungry or being asked to wait a moment for real life
reasons. Jayn lashes out much less than she used to, and mostly just with
Daddy � so I can�t help feeling sometimes his neediness for her affection is
part of the cause of some of her rejecting of him behavior. Left to initiate
it herself she will run and hug us constantly. I don�t allow her to hit me,
by holding her hands and telling her she may not hit me. But I don�t either
harp on about her hitting for a long time after, or just ignore her either.
I try to find out why she is angry. So much of the time it is in reaction to
my mood, or activities.
<<I don't think she should be hitting, or saying "shoo" or "Harumph." if
she
has those from a book, maybe talk to her about how books are written so
people
can think of how the characters in the book felt when someone was mean to
them. But it's not a way to treat real people with feelings.>>
She gets the nose turning up �Hummph� from several different tv sources!
Ruby�s friend Louise does it in an episode of �Max and Ruby� to show her
disdain of Max�s Halloween costume. Kiki does it in �Kiki�s delivery
service� because she is shy of a boy, who pursues friendship anyway.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tell her that was not only hurting her dad's feelings, but could hurt her
own
happy freedoms���
I would think of it as just discourtesy, and I would keep at her about being
kind to people, and either doing nice things or not doing anything����
I would try to help him not feel frustrated���.
And remind her her dad is nice to her, maybe, and that she should be as nice
to him as she can be, and say "Excuse me" instead of "shoo" or say "I don't
want to do that right
now" instead of hitting.>>
These are all the things that I am doing, along with offering her
alternative verbal strategies. These are exactly the kind of things that can
look like �doing nothing� to someone who parents traditionally, who has not
made the shift, or does not have the desire to go towards unschooling and
respectful parenting. Sometimes it is a melt down from frustration or
tiredness situation, which I believe she will grow out of � or at least grow
out of having that kind of reaction to her frustrations.
<<there's a danger that your husband will lose patience with meanness and
not want
to proceed with unschooling if you call this unschooling.>>
The point I was trying to make was that dh has a need to talk out his hurt
feelings and if I short circuit his process by arguing with him, he just
gets frustrated with me as well. If allowed to talk it through he returns to
calm appreciation of all of the above type of procedures, and kind of sighs
about it. Jayn is 4, my dh and I are 42. I think an adult is supposed to be
able to rise above some of the stuff a 4 year old will do just because they
are tired, frustrated, hungry or being asked to wait a moment for real life
reasons. Jayn lashes out much less than she used to, and mostly just with
Daddy � so I can�t help feeling sometimes his neediness for her affection is
part of the cause of some of her rejecting of him behavior. Left to initiate
it herself she will run and hug us constantly. I don�t allow her to hit me,
by holding her hands and telling her she may not hit me. But I don�t either
harp on about her hitting for a long time after, or just ignore her either.
I try to find out why she is angry. So much of the time it is in reaction to
my mood, or activities.
<<I don't think she should be hitting, or saying "shoo" or "Harumph." if
she
has those from a book, maybe talk to her about how books are written so
people
can think of how the characters in the book felt when someone was mean to
them. But it's not a way to treat real people with feelings.>>
She gets the nose turning up �Hummph� from several different tv sources!
Ruby�s friend Louise does it in an episode of �Max and Ruby� to show her
disdain of Max�s Halloween costume. Kiki does it in �Kiki�s delivery
service� because she is shy of a boy, who pursues friendship anyway.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/11/2004 7:23:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:
I think an adult is supposed to be
able to rise above some of the stuff a 4 year old will do just because they
are tired, frustrated, hungry or being asked to wait a moment for real life
reasons.<<<<<<
When Ben used to lose it (yes, he DID!), I would immediately tell him that HE
was 36 and Duncan was TWO! Or HE was 30 and Cameron was FOUR! He was the
adult.He *should* have more control. Was he so perfect at FIVE? or nine? or twelve?
Frequent problem, but he's over it now! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
I think an adult is supposed to be
able to rise above some of the stuff a 4 year old will do just because they
are tired, frustrated, hungry or being asked to wait a moment for real life
reasons.<<<<<<
When Ben used to lose it (yes, he DID!), I would immediately tell him that HE
was 36 and Duncan was TWO! Or HE was 30 and Cameron was FOUR! He was the
adult.He *should* have more control. Was he so perfect at FIVE? or nine? or twelve?
Frequent problem, but he's over it now! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/11/04 5:22:54 PM, dezigna@... writes:
<< Jayn lashes out much less than she used to, and mostly just with
Daddy – so I can’t help feeling sometimes his neediness for her affection is
part of the cause of some of her rejecting of him behavior. >>
All ditto, Keith and Kirby, when Kirby was the only.
I felt really stuck between, but in a weird way Keith was the needier of the
two. I was still at a balance point, deciding how to be with Kirby sometimes,
and I would tell Kirby things were going to go better for all of us if Keith
was happy. Then I'd be telling Keith on the other side later that Kirby
wasn't responsible for Keith's happiness and if Keith couldn't remember his
childhood maybe that was a big clue that he was blocking things out and it was likely
his parents way was NOT a good way.
And so forth. For years. But gradually Keith has really come around.
I would really hate to be the cause of any divorce. Not at Robyn's house,
because they're not unstable, but there've been times in the past when advice
turned toward moms siding totally with kids, and it scares me. Sometimes if a
mom's unwilling to compromise at all, she could lose her opportunity to
unschool for having to work fulltime if her husband leaves or worse, could lose
custody of the kids or have to share, and lost legal right to unschool.
So maybe my reaction had in part to do with wondering what lurkers will grab
and run home with before really understanding all ramifications.
Sorry if it seemed too strong, since it was your post that triggered it,
Robyn.
Keith was, and I've seen other dads be, jealous. He was (still is sometimes)
jealous because our kids do things he never got to do. But though I used
them early on as healing exercises (saying yes when I know my mom would have said
no, and revelling in their happy faces), Keith has only more lately been
doing that, and I see it sometimes. When Kirby asked if he could drive the van
Keith just bought (used) the day before--a big Chevy conversion van--to take his
friends to the movies, Keith thought about two seconds before saying "Sure."
The Dodge Caravan would have held them all too, but Keith knew it would be
more fun for Kirby to take the plush big new thing, just for fun.
I would've said no. But I would have said no because I would have thought
Keith would've been happier with no. It was pretty wonderful for all involved
for him to say yes.
Seeing some of the early interactions of Keith and Kirby, 12 and 13 years
ago, I would never have expected any such thing!
Sandra
<< Jayn lashes out much less than she used to, and mostly just with
Daddy – so I can’t help feeling sometimes his neediness for her affection is
part of the cause of some of her rejecting of him behavior. >>
All ditto, Keith and Kirby, when Kirby was the only.
I felt really stuck between, but in a weird way Keith was the needier of the
two. I was still at a balance point, deciding how to be with Kirby sometimes,
and I would tell Kirby things were going to go better for all of us if Keith
was happy. Then I'd be telling Keith on the other side later that Kirby
wasn't responsible for Keith's happiness and if Keith couldn't remember his
childhood maybe that was a big clue that he was blocking things out and it was likely
his parents way was NOT a good way.
And so forth. For years. But gradually Keith has really come around.
I would really hate to be the cause of any divorce. Not at Robyn's house,
because they're not unstable, but there've been times in the past when advice
turned toward moms siding totally with kids, and it scares me. Sometimes if a
mom's unwilling to compromise at all, she could lose her opportunity to
unschool for having to work fulltime if her husband leaves or worse, could lose
custody of the kids or have to share, and lost legal right to unschool.
So maybe my reaction had in part to do with wondering what lurkers will grab
and run home with before really understanding all ramifications.
Sorry if it seemed too strong, since it was your post that triggered it,
Robyn.
Keith was, and I've seen other dads be, jealous. He was (still is sometimes)
jealous because our kids do things he never got to do. But though I used
them early on as healing exercises (saying yes when I know my mom would have said
no, and revelling in their happy faces), Keith has only more lately been
doing that, and I see it sometimes. When Kirby asked if he could drive the van
Keith just bought (used) the day before--a big Chevy conversion van--to take his
friends to the movies, Keith thought about two seconds before saying "Sure."
The Dodge Caravan would have held them all too, but Keith knew it would be
more fun for Kirby to take the plush big new thing, just for fun.
I would've said no. But I would have said no because I would have thought
Keith would've been happier with no. It was pretty wonderful for all involved
for him to say yes.
Seeing some of the early interactions of Keith and Kirby, 12 and 13 years
ago, I would never have expected any such thing!
Sandra
Susan Van Cleave
It certainly takes more time than sending them into timeout or taking away "privileges", but I know they learn a whole lot more about themselves and others. And it helps my dh to see and treat them like human beings, not "just kids".
Pam L
I appreciated this post. My oldest (7) has a difficult time controlling himself, especially when he becomes frustrated. His actions frustrate me and I don't always respond to him as well as I would like. I keep reminding myself that if I have a hard time being patient and tolerant with him how can I justify becoming upset with him when he, at 7, has the same trouble with his younger siblings. It all needs to begin with me. I wish I could say that I consistently provide him with a great example of how to interact with people. I owe it to him as his mom to strive harder to be that great example.
Susan V
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam L
I appreciated this post. My oldest (7) has a difficult time controlling himself, especially when he becomes frustrated. His actions frustrate me and I don't always respond to him as well as I would like. I keep reminding myself that if I have a hard time being patient and tolerant with him how can I justify becoming upset with him when he, at 7, has the same trouble with his younger siblings. It all needs to begin with me. I wish I could say that I consistently provide him with a great example of how to interact with people. I owe it to him as his mom to strive harder to be that great example.
Susan V
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]