Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Varieties of Unschoolers
Holly Selden
Castle blocks? Sounds interesting! Where did you procure these? *grins*
I'm not sure if the kids would want to play with them, but Nathan and I sure would!!!
Holly ~ The eternal kid at heart :)
I'm not sure if the kids would want to play with them, but Nathan and I sure would!!!
Holly ~ The eternal kid at heart :)
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Varieties of Unschoolers
In a message dated 2/7/2004 4:59:48 PM Mountain Standard Time,
melissa4123@... writes:
We took a castle-blocks set all apart into its little pieces so
someone will play with it next time it's out,
-------------------
Well, not four hours later, Holly and a friend are upstairs playing with
those castle blocks.
Marty and I had dumped them and I washed the plastic box we keep them in (way
dusty, from sitting on a shelf for six months or more), separated all the
pieces and put them back in the box. Without any proper strewing strategy, I
just put them on a table I passed by thinking I would do something thoughtful.
TOO LATE! Holly and Meggan are making castles.
Cool!
Sandra
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In a message dated 2/6/04 2:43:24 PM, garrisonstuber@... writes:
<< The fourth group are what the first group distainfully calls "eclectic
homeschoolers" or "posers." >>
"Eclectic" was a term taken on by some people who liked unschooling but
couldn't really live there. It wasn't a term put upon them by unschoolers. That
term was first used, I think, by a group at AOL's Homefront Hall, on the
homeschooling boards.
The only "poser" statement I've ever heard was lately when someone who
claimed to be a veteran unschooler (not on this list) made statements only someone
who didn't really get unschooling could have made. Someone used that term in
questioning her veracity.
<<The fourth group are what the first group distainfully calls "eclectic
homeschoolers" or "posers." They are usually people who like the idea
of unschooling and want to adopt it, but because they have not yet
shifted their educational paradigm, have not made the leap from
another method to further down the unschooling continuum.
unschooling. They had already settled happily with a kind of assortment-pack of
materials and styles, and seemed quite content!
<<The third group are Holt/Gatto devotees. They tend toward "life
experiences" and the library rather than television.>>
Where've you come across this group? Some of the people on this list might
like to read all that. Is there a hangout you can refer them to?
<<The first group are on one end of the spectrum. They believe that
there is no separation of "unschooling" from any other part of life,
except that anyone placing any boundaries on anything, and anyone who
uses textbooks/workbooks, cannot be an "unschooler.">>
I'm guessing by "uses textbooks/workbooks" you mean "uses" in a schoolish
sense? Assignements or at least the hope/promise that they contain information
arranged in so valuable a way that children will do well to have them?
My kids have workbooks and have "used them" the same way they use coloring
books and crossword puzzles, and that doesn't disqualify them as unschoolers.
-=-except that anyone placing any boundaries on anything. . . cannot be an
"unschooler."-=-
We have boundaries on lots of things.
Kirby wouldn't get in the van and drive to Colorado, but if he went somewhere
in Albuquerque without us knowing in advance, that wouldn't be a problem.
Marty wouldn't clear out every change-stash and wallet in the house, but if
he got $5 from one of those sources and left a note or told us later, nobody
would care a bit.
Holly can stay up as late as she wants, but she stays in the house and she
stays quiet.
What kinds of people have you come across who had no boundaries? That's just
not right or healthy.
I think just about all unschoolers, and eclectics, and relaxed homeschoolers
are Holt and Gatto fans.
Sandra
<< The fourth group are what the first group distainfully calls "eclectic
homeschoolers" or "posers." >>
"Eclectic" was a term taken on by some people who liked unschooling but
couldn't really live there. It wasn't a term put upon them by unschoolers. That
term was first used, I think, by a group at AOL's Homefront Hall, on the
homeschooling boards.
The only "poser" statement I've ever heard was lately when someone who
claimed to be a veteran unschooler (not on this list) made statements only someone
who didn't really get unschooling could have made. Someone used that term in
questioning her veracity.
<<The fourth group are what the first group distainfully calls "eclectic
homeschoolers" or "posers." They are usually people who like the idea
of unschooling and want to adopt it, but because they have not yet
shifted their educational paradigm, have not made the leap from
another method to further down the unschooling continuum.
>>The self-styled eclectics were not intending to move further into
unschooling. They had already settled happily with a kind of assortment-pack of
materials and styles, and seemed quite content!
<<The third group are Holt/Gatto devotees. They tend toward "life
experiences" and the library rather than television.>>
Where've you come across this group? Some of the people on this list might
like to read all that. Is there a hangout you can refer them to?
<<The first group are on one end of the spectrum. They believe that
there is no separation of "unschooling" from any other part of life,
except that anyone placing any boundaries on anything, and anyone who
uses textbooks/workbooks, cannot be an "unschooler.">>
I'm guessing by "uses textbooks/workbooks" you mean "uses" in a schoolish
sense? Assignements or at least the hope/promise that they contain information
arranged in so valuable a way that children will do well to have them?
My kids have workbooks and have "used them" the same way they use coloring
books and crossword puzzles, and that doesn't disqualify them as unschoolers.
-=-except that anyone placing any boundaries on anything. . . cannot be an
"unschooler."-=-
We have boundaries on lots of things.
Kirby wouldn't get in the van and drive to Colorado, but if he went somewhere
in Albuquerque without us knowing in advance, that wouldn't be a problem.
Marty wouldn't clear out every change-stash and wallet in the house, but if
he got $5 from one of those sources and left a note or told us later, nobody
would care a bit.
Holly can stay up as late as she wants, but she stays in the house and she
stays quiet.
What kinds of people have you come across who had no boundaries? That's just
not right or healthy.
I think just about all unschoolers, and eclectics, and relaxed homeschoolers
are Holt and Gatto fans.
Sandra
Wife2Vegman
--- Jen Garrison Stuber <garrisonstuber@...>
wrote:
funny, in an oxymoronic sort of way.
classes at a local community college, or who read a
chemistry textbook on the floor of their bedroom?
unschooling. What is that? I also never read
anything by Holt suggesting that tv was inferior to
the library. Which book would I find that in? Do you
have references for Gatto as well?
spectrum rather than continuum, well, I have met some
of those types, used to be one myself. But I think
they are really just in the first stages...The pupal
(that's pupal, not pupil) stage of unschooling.
Seems mean to call them posers, since they are just as
sincere as anyone else in doing what they see is best
for their kids, and I think that once bitten by the
unschooling bug, it can't help but spread to all
different areas of your life.
They just aren't there yet ;-) We can always hope for
them. LOL!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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wrote:
>Just a few.
> Thoughts?
>
> I've noted four distinct groups of unschoolers asWow! We're a subject? Really? Huh. That is sort of
> I've immersed in the
> subject:
funny, in an oxymoronic sort of way.
> The first group are on one end of the spectrum. TheyDoes that include unschooling teens/adults who take
> believe that
> there is no separation of "unschooling" from any
> other part of life,
> except that anyone placing any boundaries on
> anything, and anyone who
> uses textbooks/workbooks, cannot be an "unschooler."
classes at a local community college, or who read a
chemistry textbook on the floor of their bedroom?
>Like what?
> The second group are toward the same end as the
> first--they eschew
> anything "schoolish," but may divide some parts of
> life from
> "unschooling."
>I have never heard of the "Classical Model" of
> The third group are Holt/Gatto devotees. They tend
> toward "life
> experiences" and the library rather than television.
> They tend to
> believe that not all experiences are created equal
> (since, were that
> so, school would be as viable an experience as
> unschooling), and hence
> edge (or at least emphasize) the Classical Model in
> terms of potential
> content, and unschooling as a method of delivery.
unschooling. What is that? I also never read
anything by Holt suggesting that tv was inferior to
the library. Which book would I find that in? Do you
have references for Gatto as well?
>Huh. Other than the fact that I think you mean
> The fourth group are what the first group
> distainfully calls "eclectic
> homeschoolers" or "posers." They are usually people
> who like the idea
> of unschooling and want to adopt it, but because
> they have not yet
> shifted their educational paradigm, have not made
> the leap from
> another method to further down the unschooling
> continuum.
spectrum rather than continuum, well, I have met some
of those types, used to be one myself. But I think
they are really just in the first stages...The pupal
(that's pupal, not pupil) stage of unschooling.
Seems mean to call them posers, since they are just as
sincere as anyone else in doing what they see is best
for their kids, and I think that once bitten by the
unschooling bug, it can't help but spread to all
different areas of your life.
They just aren't there yet ;-) We can always hope for
them. LOL!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
catherine aceto
Huh. Can't say that any of those categories describe any unschooler that I've ever met.
I'm curious about your sources. What kind of unschooler do you view yourself as?
-Cat
I'm curious about your sources. What kind of unschooler do you view yourself as?
-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: Jen Garrison Stuber
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 4:24 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Varieties of Unschoolers
I've noted four distinct groups of unschoolers as I've immersed in the
subject:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I fall into NONE of those categories! <g>
except that anyone placing any boundaries on anything, and anyone who
uses textbooks/workbooks, cannot be an "unschooler."<<<<<<<
The use or non-use of text/workbooks is irrelevant. Book worship, though, is
a problem.
The far end of the spectrum, though----the radical unschoolers---are the loud
ones here. I would fall into this "radical unschooler group": the unschooling
philosophy permeates our lives. ALL learning is valuable and is equal. We
make connections throughout our lives and we never stop learning. We immerse
ourselves in passions and wonder.
Boundaries on learning? On living? On what?
"unschooling."<<<<<<
To me, these are the folks that unschool in the "educational" part of their
lives *only*. Given time and support and ideas, they can, and often do, allow
it to leak into the rest of their lives and learn to enjoy their children and
their lives more.
believe that not all experiences are created equal (since, were that
so, school would be as viable an experience as unschooling), and hence
edge (or at least emphasize) the Classical Model in terms of potential
content, and unschooling as a method of delivery.<<<<<<
I don't get this group at all! I'd put the "Holt/Gatto devotees" and life
experiencers in Group I----but not library over TV! We all have ways we prefer to
receive our information: for some it's books; others, TV!
Classical Model? As in the Bauer's four-year repeat/spiral of info???? That
wouldn't follow. The Classical Method "requires" that certain things be
learned. That can't happen with unschooling. Makes no sense----sorry.
School is certainly a viable experience---to 90-something percent of this
country's children! Unschoolers just believe that school destroys children's
natural curiosity, creativity, and intelligence.
of unschooling and want to adopt it, but because they have not yet
shifted their educational paradigm, have not made the leap from
another method to further down the unschooling continuum.<<<<<<
Eclectics tend to be happy where they are. They have no desire to make the
shift. And they don't believe that "natural learning" of everything is possible.
Therefore, the "eclectic" pick-n-choose curriculum.
"Posers" would be those that say they unschool "except for math" or "on the
weekends" or "after the children finish their schoolwork".They just want the
neat LABEL of "unschooler". They don't understand natural learning, nor do they
seem to want to. They like to seem to be "on the cutting edge", but don't
want to *actually* BE there! Too scary.
Two varieties, maybe? "Radicals" and "just the educational part of life"
unschoolers.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>The first group are on one end of the spectrum. They believe thatthere is no separation of "unschooling" from any other part of life,
except that anyone placing any boundaries on anything, and anyone who
uses textbooks/workbooks, cannot be an "unschooler."<<<<<<<
The use or non-use of text/workbooks is irrelevant. Book worship, though, is
a problem.
The far end of the spectrum, though----the radical unschoolers---are the loud
ones here. I would fall into this "radical unschooler group": the unschooling
philosophy permeates our lives. ALL learning is valuable and is equal. We
make connections throughout our lives and we never stop learning. We immerse
ourselves in passions and wonder.
Boundaries on learning? On living? On what?
>>>>>The second group are toward the same end as the first--they eschewanything "schoolish," but may divide some parts of life from
"unschooling."<<<<<<
To me, these are the folks that unschool in the "educational" part of their
lives *only*. Given time and support and ideas, they can, and often do, allow
it to leak into the rest of their lives and learn to enjoy their children and
their lives more.
>>>>The third group are Holt/Gatto devotees. They tend toward "lifeexperiences" and the library rather than television. They tend to
believe that not all experiences are created equal (since, were that
so, school would be as viable an experience as unschooling), and hence
edge (or at least emphasize) the Classical Model in terms of potential
content, and unschooling as a method of delivery.<<<<<<
I don't get this group at all! I'd put the "Holt/Gatto devotees" and life
experiencers in Group I----but not library over TV! We all have ways we prefer to
receive our information: for some it's books; others, TV!
Classical Model? As in the Bauer's four-year repeat/spiral of info???? That
wouldn't follow. The Classical Method "requires" that certain things be
learned. That can't happen with unschooling. Makes no sense----sorry.
School is certainly a viable experience---to 90-something percent of this
country's children! Unschoolers just believe that school destroys children's
natural curiosity, creativity, and intelligence.
>>>>>The fourth group are what the first group distainfully calls "eclectichomeschoolers" or "posers." They are usually people who like the idea
of unschooling and want to adopt it, but because they have not yet
shifted their educational paradigm, have not made the leap from
another method to further down the unschooling continuum.<<<<<<
Eclectics tend to be happy where they are. They have no desire to make the
shift. And they don't believe that "natural learning" of everything is possible.
Therefore, the "eclectic" pick-n-choose curriculum.
"Posers" would be those that say they unschool "except for math" or "on the
weekends" or "after the children finish their schoolwork".They just want the
neat LABEL of "unschooler". They don't understand natural learning, nor do they
seem to want to. They like to seem to be "on the cutting edge", but don't
want to *actually* BE there! Too scary.
Two varieties, maybe? "Radicals" and "just the educational part of life"
unschoolers.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
You're kidding, right?
On Feb 6, 2004, at 1:24 PM, Jen Garrison Stuber wrote:
> I've noted four distinct groups of unschoolers as I've immersed in the
> subject:
>
> The first group are on one end of the spectrum. They believe that
> there is no separation of "unschooling" from any other part of life,
> except that anyone placing any boundaries on anything, and anyone who
> uses textbooks/workbooks, cannot be an "unschooler."
>
I've NEVER heard unschoolers here say these things. EVER. And I've got
to be one of the most radical unschoolers around -- I've never heard
anybody here say they have no boundaries on anything and I've never
heard them say that using textbooks/workbooks rules out unschooling.
Sandra and I have BOTH told stories of our kids doing workbooks - in
the BATHTUB, no less <G>. And I know MANY unschooled kids who wanted to
learn something and found textbooks useful to them at some time or
another. And to think that we have absolutely no boundaries? Ridiculous
- what we have are principles our families live by. What we try to
avoid are arbitrary rigid "rules." If you think that not having
arbitrary rigid rules means we have no boundaries, you're not
listening.
> The second group are toward the same end as the first--they eschew
> anything "schoolish," but may divide some parts of life from
> "unschooling."
>
There are people who don't test, don't give assignments, and don't
follow a parent-planned and directed curriculum, but do have
restrictions on tv, assigned chores, bedtimes, and food requirements.
True. I consider them unschoolers, myself, but I also think they
haven't realized the FULL potential of the unschooling philosophy.
> The third group are Holt/Gatto devotees. They tend toward "life
> experiences" and the library rather than television. They tend to
> believe that not all experiences are created equal (since, were that
> so, school would be as viable an experience as unschooling), and hence
> edge (or at least emphasize) the Classical Model in terms of potential
> content, and unschooling as a method of delivery.
This is just nonsense. Holt and Gatto are VERY different, for one
thing, so I'm not sure how someone could be a devotee of both. And how
can you say this group tends toward "life experiences" - how on earth
does that distinguish them from anybody else? Library versus
television? That's just a barely disguised insult - as if those who
watch tv are tending away from libraries? Again - nonsense. All
experiences created equal? What does that mean? Getting married is
equal to breaking your leg? Learning to read is equal to having toast
for breakfast? What? Nobody thinks that. And people using "the
Classical Model" aren't unschooling - they have a fixed curriculum and
even if they use a gentle method of guiding the child to learn what is
included in that curriculum, you can't impose a curriculum and unschool
at the same time. Here is a very brief description of what is included
in a "Classical Model of Education:"
****
On the first level, which we call the Grammar level, the child learns
the basic facts and the fundamental rules. In English, this would
include phonics, vocabulary, and spelling rules. In mathematics, the
number system, math facts, and measurements. In history, this would
include such things as the story part of history, including names,
places, and dates.
On the second level, which we call the Logic level, the child learns to
comprehend the way these facts fit together. In English, this would
include the parts of speech and the construction of sentences. In
mathematics, the proofs of algebra or geometry. In history, the reasons
for wars, migrations, or inventions.
On the third level, which we call the Rhetoric level, the child learns
to express and practice what he has learned. Essays, compositions, and
public speaking are applications of English study. Surveying,
accounting, and engineering are all applications of mathematical study.
Developing views in politics, economics, religion, or science are
applications of historical study.
**********
This is NOT unschooling.
>
> The fourth group are what the first group distainfully calls "eclectic
> homeschoolers" or "posers." They are usually people who like the idea
> of unschooling and want to adopt it, but because they have not yet
> shifted their educational paradigm, have not made the leap from
> another method to further down the unschooling continuum.
>
Disdainfully? Tell that to Eclectic Homeschooling Online's Bev Krueger,
someone many of us here have known for 10 years, and who is largely
responsible for that term, having coined it some years ago when we all
were coming up with ways to describe various homeschooling styles, and
it is CERTAINLY not a negative term. It does NOT denote people who like
unschooling but haven't made the leap yet - it is the clear choice of
people who don't WANT to unschool, but do want to pick and choose from
all kinds of different methods, depending on child, subject and
circumstances. If you're unfamiliar with eclectic homeschooling, you'll
want to spend some time at <www.eho.org>.
> Thoughts?
>
My thoughts are that you didn't get much of the above right and I have
no idea what your point was anyway.
> --Jen
>
>
>
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on 2/7/04 3:26 AM, pam sorooshian at pamsoroosh@... wrote:
:-/)
It's hard to tell people stuck in school-think that they need to stop
thinking the only important learning is in textbooks without it sounding to
others like unschoolers should never touch textbooks.
Here's my "categories":
There are unschoolers who apply the philosophy to just academics, not
parenting.
There are unschoolers who apply the philosophy to all aspects of life.
There are people who are influenced by people with a different definition of
unschooling than gets used here. Unschooling gets used to mean days off from
curriculum and what kids do on the weekends and in the afternoon after doing
their school work. It appeases parents' guilt to be able to attach an
official term to times when their kids aren't doing what looks like
learning. They needed a word and from what they understood from hearing
about unschooling, unschooling sounded like the word they needed.
But they aren't unschoolers. They're just misinformed about what unschooling
is. They don't realize that it's a real philosophy of learning, not just a
word for when kids aren't doing school work.
There are people who "unschool except for math" and "unschool as soon as my
kids can read". To me, they're missing some key elements in the unschooling
philosophy because of fear.
And there are probably small pockets of unschoolers where they've banded
together in agreement that certain aspects of life need controlled like
television or food. I know occasionally people will say on this list that
they got slammed on another unschoolingl ist for video games and television.
(Again, I think, people who limit are missing some key elements in the
unschooling philosophy.)
Joyce
> I've neverI think that gets heard though. (Boy was there an argument on 101 about it
> heard them say that using textbooks/workbooks rules out unschooling.
:-/)
It's hard to tell people stuck in school-think that they need to stop
thinking the only important learning is in textbooks without it sounding to
others like unschoolers should never touch textbooks.
Here's my "categories":
There are unschoolers who apply the philosophy to just academics, not
parenting.
There are unschoolers who apply the philosophy to all aspects of life.
There are people who are influenced by people with a different definition of
unschooling than gets used here. Unschooling gets used to mean days off from
curriculum and what kids do on the weekends and in the afternoon after doing
their school work. It appeases parents' guilt to be able to attach an
official term to times when their kids aren't doing what looks like
learning. They needed a word and from what they understood from hearing
about unschooling, unschooling sounded like the word they needed.
But they aren't unschoolers. They're just misinformed about what unschooling
is. They don't realize that it's a real philosophy of learning, not just a
word for when kids aren't doing school work.
There are people who "unschool except for math" and "unschool as soon as my
kids can read". To me, they're missing some key elements in the unschooling
philosophy because of fear.
And there are probably small pockets of unschoolers where they've banded
together in agreement that certain aspects of life need controlled like
television or food. I know occasionally people will say on this list that
they got slammed on another unschoolingl ist for video games and television.
(Again, I think, people who limit are missing some key elements in the
unschooling philosophy.)
Joyce
Elizabeth Hill
** The third group are Holt/Gatto devotees. They tend toward "life
experiences" and the library rather than television. They tend to
believe that not all experiences are created equal (since, were that
so, school would be as viable an experience as unschooling), and hence
edge (or at least emphasize) the Classical Model in terms of potential
content, and unschooling as a method of delivery.**
Wellllll, if there are any 'unschoolers' on this list that refer to
their precious children as being in "the poll parrot stage" I invite
them to come talk to me for awhile. I intend to ruffle their feathers! <eg>
Betsy
experiences" and the library rather than television. They tend to
believe that not all experiences are created equal (since, were that
so, school would be as viable an experience as unschooling), and hence
edge (or at least emphasize) the Classical Model in terms of potential
content, and unschooling as a method of delivery.**
Wellllll, if there are any 'unschoolers' on this list that refer to
their precious children as being in "the poll parrot stage" I invite
them to come talk to me for awhile. I intend to ruffle their feathers! <eg>
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/7/04 11:46:41 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< There are people who "unschool except for math" and "unschool as soon as my
kids can read". To me, they're missing some key elements in the unschooling
philosophy because of fear. >>
I think those are missing THE key ingredient.
It IS true, though, that a child who comes out of school already
understanding mathematical notation and being an avid reader is a SHOE-IN for continuing
with unschooling, because he won't be baffled by standardized tests, and
because the mom will be past those two great points of paralyzing fright.
But that's is not to say I would ever EVER recommend that a prospective
unschooler with a young child should teach reading and math first and then later
unschool.
Sandra
<< There are people who "unschool except for math" and "unschool as soon as my
kids can read". To me, they're missing some key elements in the unschooling
philosophy because of fear. >>
I think those are missing THE key ingredient.
It IS true, though, that a child who comes out of school already
understanding mathematical notation and being an avid reader is a SHOE-IN for continuing
with unschooling, because he won't be baffled by standardized tests, and
because the mom will be past those two great points of paralyzing fright.
But that's is not to say I would ever EVER recommend that a prospective
unschooler with a young child should teach reading and math first and then later
unschool.
Sandra
rachel_foodie
>It is true that Gatto is not a big fan of tv. He seems to really
> <<The third group are Holt/Gatto devotees. They tend toward "life
>
> experiences" and the library rather than television.>>
>
loathe it for the most part. Unless he has changed his mind about
it, everything I have read by him (granted alot of his essays in book
form are at least 5 years old) is that he ranks television the 2nd
bad influence on children next to the 1st which is, of course,
school. Here's a quote from him below:
" Between schooling and television, all the time children have is
eaten up. That's what has destroyed the American family."
and another one:
"Two institutions at present control our children's lives -television
and schooling- in that order. Both of these reduce the real world of
wisdom, fortitude, temperence, and justice to a never-ending, nonstop
abstraction. In centuries past, the time of a child and adolescent
would be occupied in real work, real charity, real adventures, and
the real search for mentors who might teach what one really wanted to
learn. A great deal of time was spent in community pursuits,
practicing affection, meeting and studying every level of the
community, learing how to make a home, and dozens of other tasks
necessary to becoming a whole man or woman."
I LOVE television as much as anyone here. We've got DVDs, PCs, TVs,
Dishnetwork, Gaming systems, you name it. But, hey, they don't call
it the "plug in drug" for nothing. Even I can see that. And there are
many, many times that I think to myself, "How much exploring and
discovering, learning, creating-in and enjoyment of the world around
them would my kids be doing if I unplugged them from their Matrix?"
My honest answer to myself is, "a whole bunch more". I can't lie to
myself, TV can be a ridiculous time wasting, productivity sucking
sink. It can also be wonderful. For me, I am still trying to find
that balance.
Rachel
[email protected]
<< he ranks television the 2nd bad influence on children
next to the 1st which is, of course, school >>
He knows a lot about schoolkids, and TV is bad for schoolkids.
It honestly does seem that TV is used differently by unschooled kids than
school kids, in almost every conceivable way.
<<Both of these reduce the real world of
wisdom, fortitude, temperence, and justice to a never-ending, nonstop
abstraction. >>
I can see that in the case of school, but not of TV in an unschooled life.
<< In centuries past, the time of a child and adolescent
would be occupied in real work, real charity, real adventures, and
the real search for mentors who might teach what one really wanted to
learn. >>
From most of what I've read about centuries past, the time of a child and
adolescent were spent being forced to do things they didn't want to do, at the
threat of violence, and few were in the home of their parents after they were 15
or so, either having been put out to work, as servants in other households or
page/lady/hostage if they were wealthy, or they had run away or were married.
"Centuries past" aren't much model to hold up to any unschooled child in
the peace of his own home.
<<But, hey, they don't call
it the "plug in drug" for nothing. Even I can see that. >>
They called it that because it was catchy and the author of a book wanted to
hook people in to buy a book and say he must be really smart. It's rhetorical
wrestling at the pro-wrestling circuit level.
<<For me, I am still trying to find
that balance.>>
For you, or for your children? Your own rhetorical musing involved You
unplugging Them.
What wonderful real-world adventures are you offering them instead of
watching TV? Because if you want them to find their own adventures in the same old
back yard or their same old bedroom, they might be wise to watch TV..
<<TV can be a ridiculous time wasting, productivity sucking sink>>
What are you wanting your kids to produce?
Are your kids in the habit of doing ridiculously wasteful sucking things?
Holly spent the night with a friend, so I have no idea if she's watching TV.
I doubt it.
Marty watched Addams Family Values because it's overdue on a rental and I
want to take it back. I watched some of it with him. We took a castle-blocks
set all apart into its little pieces so someone will play with it next time it's
out, and I looked up two things on the internet for him. We paused to talk
about The Producers, and to look something up about voice work (because of a
short scene Nathan Lane is in). I brought him lunch while he was watching, and
sat with him for a lot of the time.
Kirby is painting miniatures. He has to go to work at 5:00, but he got up
before noon and started working on his miniature army. He was watching a movie
on TV. I went in to sit with him and talk to him about last night (he was
home with role players; I was gone). He said "I don't think you would like this
movie." It was about kidnapping, and violence, and craziness. He was out of
the room a lot anyway, putting coats of primer or finisher on one piece or
another, on the deck where it wouldn't stink so much.
TVs in five rooms, and two were on for a movie's-length apiece.
Marty's going ice skating later. Holly will probably go too. We're having
overnight company, and they'll probably go skating as well.
If there were no skating planned, they might watch TV instead, or not.
I just don't see it as a ridiculous...sink.
If someone's life is sad enough that TV is the best thing for them, then
STILL it's a good choice. But the unschoolers I know are out and about, doing
real things that involve art or birds or skateboards or scouts or music, and
they're not using TV for avoiding life.
The schoolkids I know, that's another matter. Some are no longer in a
relationship with their parents outside of appeals for funds and reports of whether
they have homework, whether it's done, and what their teachers said. Past
those obligations, they avoid their parents. It's sad. TV didn't cause that.
School did.
Sandra
next to the 1st which is, of course, school >>
He knows a lot about schoolkids, and TV is bad for schoolkids.
It honestly does seem that TV is used differently by unschooled kids than
school kids, in almost every conceivable way.
<<Both of these reduce the real world of
wisdom, fortitude, temperence, and justice to a never-ending, nonstop
abstraction. >>
I can see that in the case of school, but not of TV in an unschooled life.
<< In centuries past, the time of a child and adolescent
would be occupied in real work, real charity, real adventures, and
the real search for mentors who might teach what one really wanted to
learn. >>
From most of what I've read about centuries past, the time of a child and
adolescent were spent being forced to do things they didn't want to do, at the
threat of violence, and few were in the home of their parents after they were 15
or so, either having been put out to work, as servants in other households or
page/lady/hostage if they were wealthy, or they had run away or were married.
"Centuries past" aren't much model to hold up to any unschooled child in
the peace of his own home.
<<But, hey, they don't call
it the "plug in drug" for nothing. Even I can see that. >>
They called it that because it was catchy and the author of a book wanted to
hook people in to buy a book and say he must be really smart. It's rhetorical
wrestling at the pro-wrestling circuit level.
<<For me, I am still trying to find
that balance.>>
For you, or for your children? Your own rhetorical musing involved You
unplugging Them.
What wonderful real-world adventures are you offering them instead of
watching TV? Because if you want them to find their own adventures in the same old
back yard or their same old bedroom, they might be wise to watch TV..
<<TV can be a ridiculous time wasting, productivity sucking sink>>
What are you wanting your kids to produce?
Are your kids in the habit of doing ridiculously wasteful sucking things?
Holly spent the night with a friend, so I have no idea if she's watching TV.
I doubt it.
Marty watched Addams Family Values because it's overdue on a rental and I
want to take it back. I watched some of it with him. We took a castle-blocks
set all apart into its little pieces so someone will play with it next time it's
out, and I looked up two things on the internet for him. We paused to talk
about The Producers, and to look something up about voice work (because of a
short scene Nathan Lane is in). I brought him lunch while he was watching, and
sat with him for a lot of the time.
Kirby is painting miniatures. He has to go to work at 5:00, but he got up
before noon and started working on his miniature army. He was watching a movie
on TV. I went in to sit with him and talk to him about last night (he was
home with role players; I was gone). He said "I don't think you would like this
movie." It was about kidnapping, and violence, and craziness. He was out of
the room a lot anyway, putting coats of primer or finisher on one piece or
another, on the deck where it wouldn't stink so much.
TVs in five rooms, and two were on for a movie's-length apiece.
Marty's going ice skating later. Holly will probably go too. We're having
overnight company, and they'll probably go skating as well.
If there were no skating planned, they might watch TV instead, or not.
I just don't see it as a ridiculous...sink.
If someone's life is sad enough that TV is the best thing for them, then
STILL it's a good choice. But the unschoolers I know are out and about, doing
real things that involve art or birds or skateboards or scouts or music, and
they're not using TV for avoiding life.
The schoolkids I know, that's another matter. Some are no longer in a
relationship with their parents outside of appeals for funds and reports of whether
they have homework, whether it's done, and what their teachers said. Past
those obligations, they avoid their parents. It's sad. TV didn't cause that.
School did.
Sandra
Melissa
--- In [email protected], "rachel_foodie"
<rachel_foodie@y...> wrote:
<<It is true that Gatto is not a big fan of tv. He seems to really
loathe it for the most part. " Between schooling and television,
all the time children have is eaten up. That's what has destroyed
the American family.">>
One of the book that I am currently reading is Dumbing Us Down by
him and have read in there several times that tv is the second
biggest evil in the world. Or words simliar to that.
<<I LOVE television as much as anyone here. We've got DVDs, PCs,
TVs, Dishnetwork, Gaming systems, you name it. But, hey, they don't
call it the "plug in drug" for nothing. Even I can see that. And
there are many, many times that I think to myself, "How much
exploring and discovering, learning, creating-in and enjoyment of
the world around them would my kids be doing if I unplugged them
from their Matrix?" My honest answer to myself is, "a whole bunch
more". I can't lie to myself, TV can be a ridiculous time wasting,
productivity sucking sink. It can also be wonderful. For me, I am
still trying to find that balance.>>
I'm glad I'm not the only one on this list (yes, I know this has
come up LOTS of times, even in the relatively short time I've been
on) but, I too still have days where I struggle with the hours spent
watching tv. However, I don't limit the amount of time that my DD
watches. I bite my tongue and remember what I have been told and
seen other be told by much more experienced people on this list. I
won't really rot her brain. After all, I watch a lot of tv and I'm
a faily intelligent person. I'm currently consoling myself with the
fact that it is REALLY cold out and given half a chance to do
something fun outdoors, we all jump at it.
Melissa
<rachel_foodie@y...> wrote:
<<It is true that Gatto is not a big fan of tv. He seems to really
loathe it for the most part. " Between schooling and television,
all the time children have is eaten up. That's what has destroyed
the American family.">>
One of the book that I am currently reading is Dumbing Us Down by
him and have read in there several times that tv is the second
biggest evil in the world. Or words simliar to that.
<<I LOVE television as much as anyone here. We've got DVDs, PCs,
TVs, Dishnetwork, Gaming systems, you name it. But, hey, they don't
call it the "plug in drug" for nothing. Even I can see that. And
there are many, many times that I think to myself, "How much
exploring and discovering, learning, creating-in and enjoyment of
the world around them would my kids be doing if I unplugged them
from their Matrix?" My honest answer to myself is, "a whole bunch
more". I can't lie to myself, TV can be a ridiculous time wasting,
productivity sucking sink. It can also be wonderful. For me, I am
still trying to find that balance.>>
I'm glad I'm not the only one on this list (yes, I know this has
come up LOTS of times, even in the relatively short time I've been
on) but, I too still have days where I struggle with the hours spent
watching tv. However, I don't limit the amount of time that my DD
watches. I bite my tongue and remember what I have been told and
seen other be told by much more experienced people on this list. I
won't really rot her brain. After all, I watch a lot of tv and I'm
a faily intelligent person. I'm currently consoling myself with the
fact that it is REALLY cold out and given half a chance to do
something fun outdoors, we all jump at it.
Melissa
Melissa
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
<<Marty watched Addams Family Values because it's overdue on a
rental and I want to take it back. I watched some of it with him.
We took a castle-blocks set all apart into its little pieces so
someone will play with it next time it's out, and I looked up two
things on the internet for him. We paused to talk about The
Producers, and to look something up about voice work (because of a
short scene Nathan Lane is in). I brought him lunch while he was
watching, and sat with him for a lot of the time.
Kirby is painting miniatures. He has to go to work at 5:00, but he
got up before noon and started working on his miniature army. He
was watching a movie on TV. I went in to sit with him and talk to
him about last night (he was home with role players; I was
gone).>>
You see....this is the reason that I am on this list. I was
thinking about my DD sitting in front of the tv for a lot of the day
and focusing on that instead of focusing on the OTHER things that
she was doing while watching her cartoons.
We played a board game, we pretended to be various animals and hoped
around the house, she played pretend kitchen and made me cookies and
cakes, she pulled EVERY book in her room out and "read" them to the
tv and then to me, she stood on her chair got her microphone and
sang to me a song that she was making up as she went along......the
list goes on and on.
Thank you Sandra for, once again, making me see that she wasn't just
sitting in front of the tv like a little robot.
I was also thinking about another article that I read on Sandra's
website about "strewing." I was picking up the toys from the living
room that my DD had stopped playing with and took a bunch of new
ones that she hadn't played with in a while down there. She got all
excited and started yelling "thank you mommy, thank you." :) She
can't remember what toys she has unless they are in front of her.
Melissa
Have a Nice Day!
I too still have days where I struggle with the hours spent
watching tv. However, I don't limit the amount of time that my DD
watches. <<<<<<
I struggle with this too, especially this time of year. BUT, I am trying to also keep in perspective that it *is* cold outside, that we are all tired of the snow, that we LONG for warm weather. And I try to remember that in the summer we rarely ever watch tv or play video games. We are almost always outside doing *something*.
Sandra asked what is offered that is more interesting in place of tv. She also asks if we expect our kids to have an adventure in the "same old" backyard, etc.
That would be *our* problem. And I confess, in the cold dreary weather, it is hard to motivate myself to get out there and mix things up a little.
TV (and movies, I love movies) are our escape, though today it was grocery shopping and going to the library, and yes, even doing the taxes (my 11 year old enjoyed watching me do that). And I am absolutely astonished at all the stuff my 15 year old has learned from tv.
Just today my daughter was complaining bitterly about the weather, and I said "we really need to come up with something creative to do between now and spring so that we don't go nuts" LOL. I'm a home body. I am content to sit at home and read. My kids aren't. They've done a lot of drawing, creating, and playing with dolls. But its getting old. They need something new.
I guess its time to break out the games again or find a really suspenseful book to read to them...or maybe get out the scrapboooking stuff again, or who knows what else. Maybe we'll learn to cook some new dishes, or bake, or plan a room makeover.
Kristen
watching tv. However, I don't limit the amount of time that my DD
watches. <<<<<<
I struggle with this too, especially this time of year. BUT, I am trying to also keep in perspective that it *is* cold outside, that we are all tired of the snow, that we LONG for warm weather. And I try to remember that in the summer we rarely ever watch tv or play video games. We are almost always outside doing *something*.
Sandra asked what is offered that is more interesting in place of tv. She also asks if we expect our kids to have an adventure in the "same old" backyard, etc.
That would be *our* problem. And I confess, in the cold dreary weather, it is hard to motivate myself to get out there and mix things up a little.
TV (and movies, I love movies) are our escape, though today it was grocery shopping and going to the library, and yes, even doing the taxes (my 11 year old enjoyed watching me do that). And I am absolutely astonished at all the stuff my 15 year old has learned from tv.
Just today my daughter was complaining bitterly about the weather, and I said "we really need to come up with something creative to do between now and spring so that we don't go nuts" LOL. I'm a home body. I am content to sit at home and read. My kids aren't. They've done a lot of drawing, creating, and playing with dolls. But its getting old. They need something new.
I guess its time to break out the games again or find a really suspenseful book to read to them...or maybe get out the scrapboooking stuff again, or who knows what else. Maybe we'll learn to cook some new dishes, or bake, or plan a room makeover.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Melissa
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 6:46 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Varieties of Unschoolers
--- In [email protected], "rachel_foodie"
<rachel_foodie@y...> wrote:
<<It is true that Gatto is not a big fan of tv. He seems to really
loathe it for the most part. " Between schooling and television,
all the time children have is eaten up. That's what has destroyed
the American family.">>
One of the book that I am currently reading is Dumbing Us Down by
him and have read in there several times that tv is the second
biggest evil in the world. Or words simliar to that.
<<I LOVE television as much as anyone here. We've got DVDs, PCs,
TVs, Dishnetwork, Gaming systems, you name it. But, hey, they don't
call it the "plug in drug" for nothing. Even I can see that. And
there are many, many times that I think to myself, "How much
exploring and discovering, learning, creating-in and enjoyment of
the world around them would my kids be doing if I unplugged them
from their Matrix?" My honest answer to myself is, "a whole bunch
more". I can't lie to myself, TV can be a ridiculous time wasting,
productivity sucking sink. It can also be wonderful. For me, I am
still trying to find that balance.>>
I'm glad I'm not the only one on this list (yes, I know this has
come up LOTS of times, even in the relatively short time I've been
on) but, I too still have days where I struggle with the hours spent
watching tv. However, I don't limit the amount of time that my DD
watches. I bite my tongue and remember what I have been told and
seen other be told by much more experienced people on this list. I
won't really rot her brain. After all, I watch a lot of tv and I'm
a faily intelligent person. I'm currently consoling myself with the
fact that it is REALLY cold out and given half a chance to do
something fun outdoors, we all jump at it.
Melissa
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
I was
with a Harry Potter book in her lap. I don't know how she does it,
but she watches tv and reads at the same time. She knows what's
going on the tv show and knows what she read. I don't know how she
does it! I have a hard time focusing on laundry when the tv's on!
lol
Sheila
> thinking about my DD sitting in front of the tv for a lot of theday
> and focusing on that instead of focusing on the OTHER things thatMy daughter cracks me up when she settles down in front of the tv
> she was doing while watching her cartoons.
with a Harry Potter book in her lap. I don't know how she does it,
but she watches tv and reads at the same time. She knows what's
going on the tv show and knows what she read. I don't know how she
does it! I have a hard time focusing on laundry when the tv's on!
lol
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/7/2004 6:15:44 PM Central Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:
forth. I have a hard time just focusing on TV nonstop.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> My daughter cracks me up when she settles down in front of the tvI read and watch TV at the same time, well, not simultaneously but back and
> with a Harry Potter book in her lap. I don't know how she does it,
> but she watches tv and reads at the same time
forth. I have a hard time just focusing on TV nonstop.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
LOL!
I have to tell you my son is able to carry on one conversation and listen to another completely unrelated conversation at the same time. He can relate the details of both when its all said and done.
I have no idea how he does it.
Kristen
I have to tell you my son is able to carry on one conversation and listen to another completely unrelated conversation at the same time. He can relate the details of both when its all said and done.
I have no idea how he does it.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: kayb85
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 7:14 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Varieties of Unschoolers
I was
> thinking about my DD sitting in front of the tv for a lot of the
day
> and focusing on that instead of focusing on the OTHER things that
> she was doing while watching her cartoons.
My daughter cracks me up when she settles down in front of the tv
with a Harry Potter book in her lap. I don't know how she does it,
but she watches tv and reads at the same time. She knows what's
going on the tv show and knows what she read. I don't know how she
does it! I have a hard time focusing on laundry when the tv's on!
lol
Sheila
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
christy_imnotred
>This is my preferred way to both read and watch tv. It is like my
> My daughter cracks me up when she settles down in front of the tv
> with a Harry Potter book in her lap. I don't know how she does it,
> but she watches tv and reads at the same time. She knows what's
> going on the tv show and knows what she read. I don't know how she
> does it! I have a hard time focusing on laundry when the tv's on!
> lol
>
> Sheila
brain can't focus on just one thing at a time. My parents never
believed me and made my turn off the tv if I was reading or doing
homework. I was so glad when I got to college and could study with
the tv on. Big surprise, my studying was better in college. I
learned from that experience that I should listen to my kid when he
tells me something.
Christy
pam sorooshian
On Feb 7, 2004, at 1:52 PM, rachel_foodie wrote:
though <G>.
John Gatto's frame of reference is schools and the children he worked
with were all schooled children.
He's got some great insight about the "hidden curriculum" of schools
and he's certainly an opinionated guy, but he doesn't KNOW my
unschooled kids, does he know yours?
I find what he has to say to be sometimes interesting, but mostly it is
irrelevant to me in terms of raising my own children. Who cares what he
thinks about TV, for example - what does he know about it that I don't
know? Nada.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> It is true that Gatto is not a big fan of tv. He seems to reallyHe is sure darn proud of the segment of 20/20 which featured himself,
> loathe it for the most part.
though <G>.
John Gatto's frame of reference is schools and the children he worked
with were all schooled children.
He's got some great insight about the "hidden curriculum" of schools
and he's certainly an opinionated guy, but he doesn't KNOW my
unschooled kids, does he know yours?
I find what he has to say to be sometimes interesting, but mostly it is
irrelevant to me in terms of raising my own children. Who cares what he
thinks about TV, for example - what does he know about it that I don't
know? Nada.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
>>>>>In a message dated 2/7/2004 7:15:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,sheran@... writes:
My daughter cracks me up when she settles down in front of the tv
with a Harry Potter book in her lap. I don't know how she does it,
but she watches tv and reads at the same time. She knows what's
going on the tv show and knows what she read. I don't know how she
does it! I have a hard time focusing on laundry when the tv's on! <<<<
I distinctly remember being at a friend's house, sitting on her mom's bed. We
were playing rummy, playing monopoly with her little brother, watching TV,
eating ice cream, and I was talking with my mother on the phone. Simultaneously.
I don't believe I'm quite that capable any more!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/7/2004 4:59:48 PM Mountain Standard Time,
melissa4123@... writes:
We took a castle-blocks set all apart into its little pieces so
someone will play with it next time it's out,
-------------------
Well, not four hours later, Holly and a friend are upstairs playing with
those castle blocks.
Marty and I had dumped them and I washed the plastic box we keep them in (way
dusty, from sitting on a shelf for six months or more), separated all the
pieces and put them back in the box. Without any proper strewing strategy, I
just put them on a table I passed by thinking I would do something thoughtful.
TOO LATE! Holly and Meggan are making castles.
Cool!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
melissa4123@... writes:
We took a castle-blocks set all apart into its little pieces so
someone will play with it next time it's out,
-------------------
Well, not four hours later, Holly and a friend are upstairs playing with
those castle blocks.
Marty and I had dumped them and I washed the plastic box we keep them in (way
dusty, from sitting on a shelf for six months or more), separated all the
pieces and put them back in the box. Without any proper strewing strategy, I
just put them on a table I passed by thinking I would do something thoughtful.
TOO LATE! Holly and Meggan are making castles.
Cool!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rachel_foodie
> I find what he has to say to be sometimes interesting, but mostlyit is
> irrelevant to me in terms of raising my own children. Who careswhat he
> thinks about TV, for example - what does he know about it that Idon't
> know? Nada.I was throwing out the quotes because of the post about the different
>
> -pam
kinds of unschoolers. Other's didn't seem aware that Gatto was
opposed to TV. I was just pointing out Gatto's opinion, not my own.
I did say, however, that in all honesty I have seen TV be a huge
time sink for my family. Given a beautiful day, during winter, they
don't want to go outside. Somehow, TV has this seductive quality
that can pull people in the same house far away from each other,
video gaming and the internet have the same pull, it seems. I look so
forward to time spent together, because that time is increasingly
rare, and being with each other seems less appealing than being in
front of a screen. Surely, I can't be the only one who has ever
experienced this?
We have been unschooling the 2 youngest for years, the oldest off/on
(I want on, my husband want's off...whole different story...at least
dh is coming around). Alot of unschoolers say after a while tv
looses is hold. Well, not in my house. We don't have limits or rules
about it's use either. I long for the day my kids don't care about it
as much anymore. I long for that more than I long for them to read,
write, etc...
I know the whole "to TV or not TV that is the question" has been
hashed around by unschoolers before, and I am sure ad nauseum on this
list. So I am not trying to start anything. Just musing a little.
Hope I didn't step on anyone's toes.
Rachel
pam sorooshian
On Feb 7, 2004, at 7:28 PM, rachel_foodie wrote:
that John Gatto is not some sort of expert on tv and/or unschooling and
I am also saying that it isn't relevant to me WHAT John Gatto thinks
about it. John Gatto has never unschooled a kid. He was a
schoolteacher, for many years, and a speaker and writer about education
since. His ideas are provocative - I've heard him speak and read his
books (I read the galley proofs of his history of education book,
before it was even published). I've talked to him myself.
Saying that John Gatto thinks tv is evil - providing quotes for proving
that John Gatto thinks it is evil - makes it seem like we should
actually CARE what he thinks about it. I'm saying, unequivocally, that
he doesn't know what an unschooling life can be like and why tv and
video games can have a very very different role in our families.
Now - Rachel -- you've now posted more than once about how TV is awful
for your family. but then you sound in your last paragraph like you
don't really want to talk about it. However, remember that one of our
list guidelines is that you shouldn't post anything you don't want
discussed.
So - if you want to talk about what's going on and why TV appears to be
such a problem in your family - we can do that, but I'll leave it alone
for now except to say that maybe your focus is too much on the
tv/problem. For example, did YOU go outside and enjoy yourself - maybe
make hot chocolate and cookies and have a picnic in the gorgeous
outdoors? Or did you just keep thinking that they "should" look outside
and want to go out?
-pam
>> I find what he has to say to be sometimes interesting, but mostlyI realized that, Rachel. And I think it is extremely important to note
> it is
>> irrelevant to me in terms of raising my own children. Who cares
> what he
>> thinks about TV, for example - what does he know about it that I
> don't
>> know? Nada.
>>
>> -pam
>
>
> I was throwing out the quotes because of the post about the different
> kinds of unschoolers. Other's didn't seem aware that Gatto was
> opposed to TV. I was just pointing out Gatto's opinion, not my own.
that John Gatto is not some sort of expert on tv and/or unschooling and
I am also saying that it isn't relevant to me WHAT John Gatto thinks
about it. John Gatto has never unschooled a kid. He was a
schoolteacher, for many years, and a speaker and writer about education
since. His ideas are provocative - I've heard him speak and read his
books (I read the galley proofs of his history of education book,
before it was even published). I've talked to him myself.
Saying that John Gatto thinks tv is evil - providing quotes for proving
that John Gatto thinks it is evil - makes it seem like we should
actually CARE what he thinks about it. I'm saying, unequivocally, that
he doesn't know what an unschooling life can be like and why tv and
video games can have a very very different role in our families.
Now - Rachel -- you've now posted more than once about how TV is awful
for your family. but then you sound in your last paragraph like you
don't really want to talk about it. However, remember that one of our
list guidelines is that you shouldn't post anything you don't want
discussed.
So - if you want to talk about what's going on and why TV appears to be
such a problem in your family - we can do that, but I'll leave it alone
for now except to say that maybe your focus is too much on the
tv/problem. For example, did YOU go outside and enjoy yourself - maybe
make hot chocolate and cookies and have a picnic in the gorgeous
outdoors? Or did you just keep thinking that they "should" look outside
and want to go out?
-pam
>
> I know the whole "to TV or not TV that is the question" has been
> hashed around by unschoolers before, and I am sure ad nauseum on this
> list. So I am not trying to start anything. Just musing a little.
> Hope I didn't step on anyone's toes.
>
> Rachel
Kelly Lenhart
>My daughter cracks me up when she settles down in front of the tvMy husband gives me a hard time about the same thing. I'll be
>with a Harry Potter book in her lap. I don't know how she does it,
>but she watches tv and reads at the same time. She knows what's
>going on the tv show and knows what she read. I don't know how she
>does it! I have a hard time focusing on laundry when the tv's on!
>lol
>Sheila
reading/watching and he'll come in and want to change the channel. "Hey,
I'm watching that!" -grin-
'Course, I question how he can be asleep and still claim to be watching!
Kelly
Kelly Lenhart
>I distinctly remember being at a friend's house, sitting on her mom's bed.We
>were playing rummy, playing monopoly with her little brother, watching TV,Simultaneously.
>eating ice cream, and I was talking with my mother on the phone.
>I don't believe I'm quite that capable any more!Sure you are. Imagine planning dinner, playing canasta with one child,
>~Kelly
watching TV, discussing a role playing game with another child and nursing
the third. Did that just last night.
Kelly
(the other one)
Dawn Adams
Rachel writes:
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I look so forward to time spent together, because that time is increasinglyBeing in front of a screen IS time together for us. Granted my kids are younger but some of the best moments are when we're curled up with each other, talking about the movie we're watching or laughing at a show.
>rare, and being with each other seems less appealing than being in
>front of a screen. Surely, I can't be the only one who has ever
>experienced this?
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/7/2004 10:41:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rachel_foodie@... writes:
Well, not in my house. We don't have limits or rules
about it's use either. I long for the day my kids don't care about it
as much anymore. I long for that more than I long for them to read,
write, etc...<<<<<<
But there ARE rules and restrictions about its use in your house. They may
not be verbalized, but because, deep down, YOU CARE----you want them to choose
something else. The kids feel that.
You haven't made the paradigm shift!
When you really and truly in your heart of hearts DON'T care about that
plug-in-drug--when you KNOW that TV is no monster, when you quit "longing for the
day"---THEN you will see the switch.
And not a moment before!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rachel_foodie@... writes:
Well, not in my house. We don't have limits or rules
about it's use either. I long for the day my kids don't care about it
as much anymore. I long for that more than I long for them to read,
write, etc...<<<<<<
But there ARE rules and restrictions about its use in your house. They may
not be verbalized, but because, deep down, YOU CARE----you want them to choose
something else. The kids feel that.
You haven't made the paradigm shift!
When you really and truly in your heart of hearts DON'T care about that
plug-in-drug--when you KNOW that TV is no monster, when you quit "longing for the
day"---THEN you will see the switch.
And not a moment before!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/8/04 11:28:56 AM, HLSelden@... writes:
<< Castle blocks? Sounds interesting! Where did you procure these? *grins*
toy store in Albuquerque which then promptly went out of business (after having
been there my whole life). We couldn't have afforded them anyway, as they
were $60 and $80 a set. They're from Spain. They're like Lego, but specific
castle-parts.
Then one day at a thrift store there was a plastic bag with a bunch of blocks
AND the booklet for the set, for $5. What a score!
I looked at the paper. The company is Exin, and the line is "Castillo," so I
looked up Exin Castillo at google and found this:
http://www.trollandtoad.com/p108270.html
One small used set, but you can see what they look like so you can be on the
lookout at thrift stores or maybe e-bay.
There were other sites, in Spanish. So if anyone's in Europe or going to
Europe, maybe they're still in production!
The blocks are like Lego, kind of, lots are curved for towers, there are
gates and windows and little roofs. The blocks are a little bigger than Lego
blocks, and stone-colored.
Another building set my kids have really enjoyed is Ramagon. Those are Lego
compatible, but they're space stuff, and more mathematically oriented than
regular Lego.
http://www.ramagon.com/
Those, too, are brought out every eight or 13 months (randomly after they're
cold and forgotten) and Marty and Holly, especially, go to it! I should buy
some more...
Sandra
<< Castle blocks? Sounds interesting! Where did you procure these? *grins*
>>When Kirby was a baby, there were castle blocks at Toys by Roy, an upscale
toy store in Albuquerque which then promptly went out of business (after having
been there my whole life). We couldn't have afforded them anyway, as they
were $60 and $80 a set. They're from Spain. They're like Lego, but specific
castle-parts.
Then one day at a thrift store there was a plastic bag with a bunch of blocks
AND the booklet for the set, for $5. What a score!
I looked at the paper. The company is Exin, and the line is "Castillo," so I
looked up Exin Castillo at google and found this:
http://www.trollandtoad.com/p108270.html
One small used set, but you can see what they look like so you can be on the
lookout at thrift stores or maybe e-bay.
There were other sites, in Spanish. So if anyone's in Europe or going to
Europe, maybe they're still in production!
The blocks are like Lego, kind of, lots are curved for towers, there are
gates and windows and little roofs. The blocks are a little bigger than Lego
blocks, and stone-colored.
Another building set my kids have really enjoyed is Ramagon. Those are Lego
compatible, but they're space stuff, and more mathematically oriented than
regular Lego.
http://www.ramagon.com/
Those, too, are brought out every eight or 13 months (randomly after they're
cold and forgotten) and Marty and Holly, especially, go to it! I should buy
some more...
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Feb 7, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Kelly Lenhart wrote:
I watch tv with my computer on my lap and i answer email, play a game,
look at websites, and chat online and talk to the kids and sometimes
fold laundry while doing all that <G> -- and I'm watching tv. That's
normal life for me. My husband is irritated by it and makes comments
about me not REALLY watching.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
>Me too! <G>
> My husband gives me a hard time about the same thing. I'll be
> reading/watching and he'll come in and want to change the channel.
> "Hey,
> I'm watching that!" -grin-
>
> 'Course, I question how he can be asleep and still claim to be
> watching!
>
I watch tv with my computer on my lap and i answer email, play a game,
look at websites, and chat online and talk to the kids and sometimes
fold laundry while doing all that <G> -- and I'm watching tv. That's
normal life for me. My husband is irritated by it and makes comments
about me not REALLY watching.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/8/2004 1:08:39 PM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
movie (if I'm not reading, LOL). That bugs my DH also, he used to have a
problem with me having a book while watching TV because he never felt like I was all
there. The book no longer bothers him, he'd rather I do that now than go to
the computer. I just have to do more than one thing to be able to stay engaged.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
> My husband is irritated by it and makes commentsI go back and forth between the computer and TV even when we are watching a
> about me not REALLY watching.
>
movie (if I'm not reading, LOL). That bugs my DH also, he used to have a
problem with me having a book while watching TV because he never felt like I was all
there. The book no longer bothers him, he'd rather I do that now than go to
the computer. I just have to do more than one thing to be able to stay engaged.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]