sonyacurti

I can't believe I am asking this question on a list like this. Has
anyone tried hooked on phonics ????
My son always sees the commercial and has asked me to buy it (for
about a year now) so I finally did. They also have a hooked on math.
I feel like such a bad unschooling mommy :( I really wanted to do it
natrually over time with games. I can send it back after two months
if we don't like it. He might like it or he might not. I just hate
how they hype it up becuase if he doesn't like it becuase it doesn't
work as fast as he thinks it should he may feel like a failure.

Just wondering ???????

Sonya

Attleboro, Mass.

I can't wait to go to the Live and Learn conference :)---------------
-----------------

Elizabeth Roberts

Sarah asked for it back the summer she was five..."Mommy, I gotta get that! It'll teach me to read!" So I said sure, and we borrowed a copy from the library. There was some workbook sort of thing with it (it was an older version, about 3 years old at that time) and when I said to her I'd have to go buy her a notebook to write in since this one was just to look at because it belonged to the library and not for us....we never did get that notebook, the whole thing was never opened again...I returned it to the library and that was the extent of "using" HOP. I've heard of some school-at-home families using it successfully though...

I suppose it COULD work, and work well, IF that's what the child wants to do and there's no pressure involved.

MamaBeth

sonyacurti <jcurtielectric@...> wrote:
I can't believe I am asking this question on a list like this. Has
anyone tried hooked on phonics ????
My son always sees the commercial and has asked me to buy it (for
about a year now) so I finally did. They also have a hooked on math.
I feel like such a bad unschooling mommy :( I really wanted to do it
natrually over time with games. I can send it back after two months
if we don't like it. He might like it or he might not. I just hate
how they hype it up becuase if he doesn't like it becuase it doesn't
work as fast as he thinks it should he may feel like a failure.

Just wondering ???????

Sonya

Attleboro, Mass.

I can't wait to go to the Live and Learn conference :)---------------
-----------------



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sonyacurti

Yeah ! I ordered the one from the library and it was horrible. It
was old and missing things and just plain yuk!! He is going to be
eight soon and I would be happy if he waited a little longer. I am
doing it for him though per his request so if he doesn't like it off
it goes back to the supplier. I will say this he loves computer
games and they are suppose to have a bunch of new computer games
that come with it.

I love thelooks of the harvest moon game. I tried to talk Joey into
getting it but if it doesn't have a gun he doesn't like it
LOL...............................

Attleboro,
Mass.
Sonya

Wife2Vegman

We used H.O.P. It is expensive, $300. There are
cassettes to listen to and repeat the sounds from
while flipping a deck of cards with letters and blends
on them. The tapes went too fast for my child. It
was a waste of our money, and left my child in tears.

We also tried: The Phonics Game (also $300, fun at
first, but repetitious and boring by Game 3), Primary
Phonics, McGuffey Readers, 100EZ Lessons (went through
it 3 times, so it turned into 300EZ Lessons and still
didn't work), Reading Reflex, graded readers, reading
comprehension books, and many others.

What worked: Doing nothing. Supplying books about
subjects Andrew was interested in, and backing
completely off.

He read at age 12.



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
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[email protected]

As far as learning the sounds of the letters. My son who is 5 asked for the
new Leap Videos and within about a week He new all the sounds of the alphabet.
The videos coast around $9.99 (much cheaper than the Hooked on Phonics). My
favorite thing about it is the kids ask to watch the video and I'm not
forcing them to go through a program to learn phonics. My twin three year olds have
also learned the sounds of the letters.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sonyacurti

--- In [email protected], JWest1912@a... wrote:
> As far as learning the sounds of the letters. My son who is 5
asked for the
> new Leap Videos and within about a week He new all the sounds of
the alphabet.
> The videos coast around $9.99 (much cheaper than the Hooked on
Phonics). My
> favorite thing about it is the kids ask to watch the video and I'm
not
> forcing them to go through a program to learn phonics. My twin
three year olds have
> also learned the sounds of the letters.
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I HAVE NEVER SEEN THESE VIDEOS WHERE DO YOU FIND THEM ?? dOES ANYONE
KNOW IF I CAN REFUSE THE PACKAGE THAT WILL BE DELIVERED FROM UPS ??
I'M THINKING I JUST WON'T EXCEPT IT AND CHANGE MY MIND. I'M THINKING
IT WILL BE OVERWHELMING BECAUSE IT HAS WAY TO MANY PIECES TO IT. I
WAS THINKING WE COULD JUST BORROW MY NEPHEWS LEAP PAD TO GET IT OUT
OF HIS SYSTEM.

SONYA
ATTLEBORO,MASS.

sonyacurti

--- In [email protected], Wife2Vegman
<wifetovegman2002@y...> wrote:
>
>
> We used H.O.P. It is expensive, $300. There are
> cassettes to listen to and repeat the sounds from
> while flipping a deck of cards with letters and blends
> on them. The tapes went too fast for my child. It
> was a waste of our money, and left my child in tears.
>
> We also tried: The Phonics Game (also $300, fun at
> first, but repetitious and boring by Game 3), Primary
> Phonics, McGuffey Readers, 100EZ Lessons (went through
> it 3 times, so it turned into 300EZ Lessons and still
> didn't work), Reading Reflex, graded readers, reading
> comprehension books, and many others.
>
> What worked: Doing nothing. Supplying books about
> subjects Andrew was interested in, and backing
> completely off.
>
> He read at age 12.
>
>
>
> =====
> --Susan in VA
> WifetoVegman
>
> What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for
children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school
than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I THINK IT WILL BE THE SAME FOR JOEY.I THINK HE THINKS IT WILL MAKE
HIM AN INSTANT READER BUT WILL QUICKLY LEARN THAT IT WILL NOT.
HOW IS ANDREW DOING NOW ?????????? IT COMFORTS ME TO HEAR OTHERS
STORIES.

ON ANOTHER NOTE HE HAS A LITTLE FRIEND IN PUBLIC SCHOOL THAT IS THE
SAME AGE 7 WILL BE EIGHT THIS SUMMER AND IS IN FIRST GRADE AND HE IS
NOT READING. HIS TEACHER COMPLAINED TO THE MOM THAT HE DOESN'T KNOW
THE SOUNDS OR ALL THE LETTERS AS OF YET. I FEEL SAD FOR THE LITTLE
BOY.I EXPLAINED TO MY HUSBAND WHO THINKS HE SHOULD BE IN SCHOOL THAT
HE IS THE SAME AT HOME AS HE WOULD BE IN SCHOOL BUT HE HAS MORE
EXSPOSURE AT HOME TO DIFFERENT THINGS WITH LESS PRESSURE ON READING.

SONYA
ATTLEBORO,MA

Wife2Vegman

--- sonyacurti <jcurtielectric@...> wrote:
>
> I THINK IT WILL BE THE SAME FOR JOEY.I THINK HE
> THINKS IT WILL MAKE
> HIM AN INSTANT READER BUT WILL QUICKLY LEARN THAT IT
> WILL NOT.
> HOW IS ANDREW DOING NOW ?????????? IT COMFORTS ME TO
> HEAR OTHERS
> STORIES.


Andrew is continuing to read, and increasing in
fluency and speed.

The other night we were watching Once Upon A Time In
Mexico, and he needed some help with the subtitles
during the spanish parts because they went too fast,
but sometimes even I didn't get to the end of the
sentence before it disappeared.

But there have been many times lately where I have
assumed he needed my help to read something, and he
has said, "I already read it Mom".

Andrew will be 13 in June.



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

Melissa

--- In [email protected], "sonyacurti"
<jcurtielectric@m...> wrote:

<<My son who is 5 asked for the new Leap Videos and within about a
week He new all the sounds of the alphabet.>>

My DD (who is 2.5) asked for one the other day and LOVES it. I
bought the other one yesterday and she loves it just as much. She
too is already makes the letter sounds!


<<I HAVE NEVER SEEN THESE VIDEOS WHERE DO YOU FIND THEM ?? >>

We bought them as Sam's Club but I've seen them at Wal-mart too.

<<dOES ANYONE KNOW IF I CAN REFUSE THE PACKAGE THAT WILL BE
DELIVERED FROM UPS ??>>

Yes, you can refuse delivery. I've never done it personally but,
used to do it at work every once in a while.

Melissa

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/2/04 6:01:44 AM, jcurtielectric@... writes:

<< > As far as learning the sounds of the letters. My son who is 5

asked for the

> new Leap Videos and within about a week He new all the sounds of

the alphabet. >>

Do you guys not get PBS? Sesame Street? Between the Lions?

Why spend money on the alphabet and sounds of letters?

There's a cassette tape you might be able to get used, which was put out by
discovery toys. It's called "Sounds like Fun." There's a song with letter
sounds. Maybe you can buy it very inexpensively if you ask around your local
area. Even new it wasn't much. Comes with an alphabet card with pictures (if
it's still out there in print).

Really, if this list is going to turn into formal early-phonics discussion,
we're going entirely the wrong direction.

Sandra

Melissa

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

<<Really, if this list is going to turn into formal early-phonics
discussion, we're going entirely the wrong direction.

Sandra>>

I, personally, was not talking about formal early-phonics
education. I simply related a story about my DD loving two of the
new videos that we bought for her and, a side effect of that is that
she is learning her letters and some of the sounds that go with
them. Isn't that what unschooling is all about?

Melissa

sonyacurti

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/2/04 6:01:44 AM, jcurtielectric@m... writes:
>
> << > As far as learning the sounds of the letters. My son who is
5
>
> asked for the
>
> > new Leap Videos and within about a week He new all the sounds of
>
> the alphabet. >>
>
> Do you guys not get PBS? Sesame Street? Between the Lions?
>
> Why spend money on the alphabet and sounds of letters?
>
> There's a cassette tape you might be able to get used, which was
put out by
> discovery toys. It's called "Sounds like Fun." There's a song
with letter
> sounds. Maybe you can buy it very inexpensively if you ask around
your local
> area. Even new it wasn't much. Comes with an alphabet card with
pictures (if
> it's still out there in print).
>
> Really, if this list is going to turn into formal early-phonics
discussion,
> we're going entirely the wrong direction.
>
> Sandra
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Thanks for your input.
My son hates those alphabet shows always has.
I originally posted about H.O.P. becuase I wanted to know if anyone
had any success with it. I going back to work and I thought I may
have to put my son in school if only for a year because I don't know
how I will be able to juggle it ??
That is where the H.O.P. started. I thought he would need to be able
to function in school if that is where I nedded to put him.

Sonya

Attleboro, Mass
sorry that my original post turned into a formal early -learning
phonics discussion :(

liza sabater

On Monday, February 2, 2004, at 11:28 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Really, if this list is going to turn into formal early-phonics
> discussion,
> we're going entirely the wrong direction.

I'd like to add to that the message sent to the kids. Are you going to
buy anything and everything the kids think is cool because they saw it
on an ad? That ad is successful because it is incredibly manipulative.
It's like that "Calvin and Hobbes" where he sends away for the beanie
hat, thinking it will be greatest thing he'll ever have. Then it gets
there and he's thoroughly disappointed.

l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wife2Vegman

--- liza sabater <listdiva@...> wrote:
>
> I'd like to add to that the message sent to the
> kids. Are you going to
> buy anything and everything the kids think is cool
> because they saw it
> on an ad? That ad is successful because it is
> incredibly manipulative.
> It's like that "Calvin and Hobbes" where he sends
> away for the beanie
> hat, thinking it will be greatest thing he'll ever
> have. Then it gets
> there and he's thoroughly disappointed.
>
> l i z a


But isn't that a GREAT lesson in and of itself?

He never would have learned it if his mom or dad had
said, "no, you can't have it. it is a piece of crap."

I have a kid who needs to touch, feel, experience
everything for himself. Reverse psychology doesn't
even work, because telling him something is yucky or
cheap doesn't sway him, he still wants to find out for
himself.

I love that Calvin and Hobbes because his parents
DIDN'T tell him no.



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

liza sabater

On Monday, February 2, 2004, at 08:39 PM, Wife2Vegman wrote:
> --- liza sabater <listdiva@...> wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to add to that the message sent to the
>> kids. Are you going to
>> buy anything and everything the kids think is cool
>> because they saw it
>> on an ad? That ad is successful because it is
>> incredibly manipulative.
>> It's like that "Calvin and Hobbes" where he sends
>> away for the beanie
>> hat, thinking it will be greatest thing he'll ever
>> have. Then it gets
>> there and he's thoroughly disappointed.
>>
>> l i z a
>
>
> But isn't that a GREAT lesson in and of itself?
>
> He never would have learned it if his mom or dad had
> said, "no, you can't have it. it is a piece of crap."

If you have $300 to spare and don't care? In Calvin's situation he
earned the tickets by eating loads of SugarFrosted Chocolate Bombs. If
he had to ask his 'rent to shell out $300, his father would have said
flat out no.

Evan wants a real skateboard, not the toy kind we got him at Toys 'r
Us. A real one can cost more than $100 to put together. So we decided
to give him $3 a week so that he could save up for the skateboard. He's
got $93. He' still looking forward to that board ... and in the process
has come to understand a thing or two about money. When he asked how
much that HOP thing was, I told him, "about 3 real skateboards". End of
story :)


l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wifetovegman2002

--- In [email protected], liza sabater
<listdiva@c...> wrote:
>
> If you have $300 to spare and don't care? In Calvin's situation he
> earned the tickets by eating loads of SugarFrosted Chocolate
Bombs. If
> he had to ask his 'rent to shell out $300, his father would have
said
> flat out no.


But there are ways around the cost, and ways to help the child
explore the thing to their satisfaction without paying full price.

Checking it out from the library or borrowing it from a friend, for
a couple of ideas. Some homeschool groups even have their
own "library" with resources that families can check out.

And HOP sets are for sale all the time on vegsource.com too,
sometimes pretty inexpensively. (That, in itself, ought to tell you
just how bad the program is! LOL!)

It's great that Evan is saving for a skateboard. Only 31 more weeks
to go! Does he have the July date circled on the calendar?

We have a used sports equipment shop up the street that sells
skateboards. I wonder if they are real ones? Hmmm...ah well, my
sedentary kids let their bikes and scooters and skateboards gather
dust. Too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter, and rainy
all spring and fall.

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], "wifetovegman2002"
<wifetovegman2002@y...> wrote:
<And HOP sets are for sale all the time on vegsource.com too,
sometimes pretty inexpensively. >

And if you buy it new, I think I remember from the ads that there's a
money-back guarantee. If a kid *really* wants it (not the parent,
the kid), what a great "learning experience" to get it, investigate,
and if it's not what he wants, send it on back. The power of
returning what turns out to be crap.

I was surprised to see Liza's advice, because this list is usually
so "respect what the child wants, get him stuff he wants," etc. I
wouldn't prioritize HOP over say, a Yu-gi-oh figure or a skateboard,
but should it be a lesser priority, if the child expresses real
interest?

A thought, anyway,
Amy

Robyn Coburn

<<As far as learning the sounds of the letters. My son who is 5 asked for
the
new Leap Videos and within about a week He new all the sounds of the
alphabet.
The videos coast around $9.99 (much cheaper than the Hooked on Phonics). >>



Jayn (4) has suddenly started telling us what letter various words start
with, always with immense joy of discovery. � Guess what I just worked out?
Baby starts with B�b for baby. Just like Barbie.� She just digs letters, and
figuring them out herself.



Robyn L. Coburn


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liza sabater

On Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 12:58 AM, arcarpenter2003 wrote:

> I was surprised to see Liza's advice, because this list is usually
> so "respect what the child wants, get him stuff he wants," etc. I
> wouldn't prioritize HOP over say, a Yu-gi-oh figure or a skateboard,
> but should it be a lesser priority, if the child expresses real
> interest?

Are you really in the position to buy everything they express interest
in? Ads like HOP's go through committees and focus groups and testing
and they get tweaked and scripted in such a way they'll elicit the
exact response of "Mommy, I really want you to buy me that so I can
read". They've got Pavlov all over them and ad agencies are not ashamed
of it either (especially if the ad gets them a Clio).

Isn't it the responsibility of a parent, especially a parent that is
practicing awareness, to at least ask why the child would think they
need that to learn how to read? I am not saying do not buy anything
advertised on TV. What I am saying is, can't you take a moment of
pause, stand back and ask yourself why you want to comply with this
request. If you can borrow it at the library or from a friend, then run
and get it. If you are ready to lose money (remember, you do not get
reimbursed for shipping/handling/taxes/fees and that's where they make
a lot of their money), then hey, more power to you in this economy. But
really, are you buying them a learning tool or your own peace of mind
--even if it never gets used?

I like to watch TV, especially kids TV. It dawned on me sometime last
year that my kids sometimes could not distinguish between an ad, a
video clip and a show. So one day we just watched TV for the ads. We
would wait for the ads, watch intently, mute the show and talk about
the ads: what they were about, what were they trying to tell us, how
that made them feel. It's really fascinating to 'deconstruct' an ad
with a 6 and a 3 year old.

The whole process of questioning why you would want to buy this is also
a learning process. In our consumeristic world, it is actually a much
needed learning process. I'd add to that thorough researching of the
product and other slike it and how those $300+ would compare to other
things the kids may covet. If my kids really want something, it
certainly comes up again and again in conversation.

It's happened with guitar & tae kwon do lessons, computer games, food
and even, dare I say, ways he feels will help him learn how to read.
Like making up crosswords or having spelling games or counting the
words he knows on any of our NYC outings. It's really getting
interesting now that he is asking for specifics.


l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 2/3/04 2:30 AM, liza sabater at listdiva@... wrote:

> Are you really in the position to buy everything they express interest
> in?

People who can't afford to buy it have other options like borrowing it.

People who can afford to buy it, aren't limited to buying it! It's not their
only choice. They just have *one more* option than the people who can't
afford to buy it do.

Buying something that's refundable so a child can see for himself whether
it's worth it or not is a great way for a child to see for himself the
difference between what ads say and what something actually is.

> Ads like HOP's go through committees and focus groups and testing
> and they get tweaked and scripted in such a way they'll elicit the
> exact response of "Mommy, I really want you to buy me that so I can
> read". They've got Pavlov all over them and ad agencies are not ashamed
> of it either (especially if the ad gets them a Clio).

Which means that you fear that advertising and packaging is more powerful
than a child's own ability to investigate a product and come to the
conclusion that the advertisers are wrong. You think that the advertisers
and packagers are so powerful that a child will convince himself a product
is good even if he's not enjoying it.

> Isn't it the responsibility of a parent, especially a parent that is
> practicing awareness, to at least ask why the child would think they
> need that to learn how to read?

Which is an entirely different question!

My daughter wanted to go to kindergarten instead of homeschool. I didn't
just sign her up! I asked why. It turns out she wanted to ride the big
wheels like she did in preschool.

Joyce

Wife2Vegman

--- liza sabater <listdiva@...> wrote:
>
> Are you really in the position to buy everything
> they express interest in?

Some people are. I can supply most things my children
are interested in. I certainly don't feel guilty for
that.


> The whole process of questioning why you would want
> to buy this is also
> a learning process. In our consumeristic world, it
> is actually a much
> needed learning process.


But it isn't something we have to teach the kids. How
do you see this learning process taking place, if the
child isn't allowed to be a consumer?

They cannot fail to learn that some things are not as
they seem.


> I'd add to that thorough
> researching of the
> product and others like it and how those $300+ would
> compare to other
> things the kids may covet.


Thorough researching of everything they ask for would
get boring and tedious, and turn into "school" every
time they ask for a board game or a baseball bat.

I understand researching something like your son's new
skateboard, to get one that he likes and will serve
him the best, or which wheels will give the best ride,
or whether graphite or WD40 is the best lubricant.

I understand having him save his allowance for it, if
you can't afford it. But not as an arbitrary "lesson
in consumerism".



> If my kids really want
> something, it
> certainly comes up again and again in conversation.


How many times do they have to ask to get something
they want, though?


> It's happened with guitar & tae kwon do lessons,
> computer games, food
> and even, dare I say, ways he feels will help him
> learn how to read.

So they should ask 3 times for guitar lessons? 5 times
for tae kwon do lessons? 6 times to try the new candy
bar or eat at the new restaurant in town?

So if they don't ask enough then they might not really
want it?

Some people let their babies cry for 10 or 15 minutes
before they pick them up, to make sure they really
want to be picked up. Some babies stop crying, and
the parent thinks, "see, they didn't really want to be
picked up", but in reality the child learned that
their needs weren't going to be met, so they gave up.


I don't want my kids to lose interest in something
because I wasn't willing to meet that interest. I
don't mean I'm out rushing to buy everything they say
in passing, "oh, that looks neat", but having
expressed a real interest, if it is within my means,
why not?

Am I misunderstanding you?

Allowing them to explore those interests, as much as
it is within our means, is one of the great gifts we
give our children, isn't it?

I don't withhold what I am easily able to provide to
teach them valuable lessons in consumerism. I also
don't go into debt to provide things either.

I think any child with $5 in their pocket and taken to
the dollar store or the candy store quickly learns to
be careful with what they buy.



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/2/04 11:00:30 PM, arcarpenter@... writes:

<< I was surprised to see Liza's advice, because this list is usually

so "respect what the child wants, get him stuff he wants," etc. I

wouldn't prioritize HOP over say, a Yu-gi-oh figure or a skateboard,

but should it be a lesser priority, if the child expresses real

interest? >>

It's not a magic ticket to reading.
If parents let a child think so, I believe it would be like not reminding
them that G.I. Joe doesn't really have ammo.

If a child really wants to go to boarding school, maybe a parent should honor
that. On an unschooling list, though, the discussion might want to move
toward whether the parent is wanting help to persuade him NOT to go to boarding
school, rather than just discussing the relative prices and merits of boarding
schools.

And if a child doesn't like shows like Between the Lions or Sesame Street,
why would he like a little set of happy videos or recordings of similar things?
Or of less happy/colorful/flashy things?

I just think that instead of saying "OOOH yes, here's a lovely early-phonics
product over here, Dennis!" we might better remind people that young children
don't need "early-phonics products" to learn to read.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/3/04 12:40:55 AM, dezigna@... writes:

<< Jayn (4) has suddenly started telling us what letter various words start

with, always with immense joy of discovery. “ Guess what I just worked out?

Baby starts with B…b for baby. Just like Barbie.” She just digs letters, and

figuring them out herself. >>

My two older kids loved Sesame Street and they could name letters and know
the sounds before anyone would have been concerned, so that didn't even show.
They probably don't remember learning it.

Holly did NOT like Sesame Street. She used to say "I HATE BIG BIRD!" and
turn it off. She discovered and started liking it just a couple of years ago,
and was thrilled that I had some tapes of favorite parts from years before.

Holly can sing that letter-sounds song from Sounds Like Fun, but that might
not be where and when she really "learned" them, because learning is rarely a
one-legged stool, but it's three or four legs on the ground before it's solid.

I believe strongly that when children learn on their own gradually, and
figure it out as Jayne did, and they know they did, that it gives them more
confidence to be open to learning other things on their own. If a child or a parent
thinks a formal learning tool is crucial/important/vital to their having
learned something, that will reinforce them looking for formal learning tools in
future moments of perceived need.

This is online at http://sandradodd.com/r/deeper, but I've lifted it here:

The Deeper Effect of a Child Learning to Read: Confidence

a Mom in a discussion online: A homeschooling friend has shared that she
feels we need to teach the basics then unschool them.

Joyce Fetteroll:Your friend is wrong. If she's never experienced a child who
learned to read or do math without instruction then of course she's not going
to be able to imagine it's possible.

Sandra Dodd: If what the friend is imagining is that a child who reads will
then acquire all the other knowledge on her own, that's not the worst vision in
the world. If what the friend is hoping is the child will get past the point
that the mom worries about getting in trouble or failing entirely, I can
understand her reasoning.

If she REALLY wants to unschool, though, it will help her immensely to see
how many ways children can learn without reading. And it will help the children
immensely to have the deep confidence that they can learn without instruction.
Any child who has learned to read without "being taught" (and I have three of
them) cannot doubt that he can learn other things without finding a teacher
and following a prescribed course.

Holly takes fiddle lessons. In the course of a month she has private, paired
and group sessions. She really likes that. She shows me what she learns and I
play with her at home. I found her some songs and a book and she goes outside
of just what the teacher has assigned. Many music students don't.
School-trained, or just lacking courage and joy, they will only play what the teacher
"makes" them play, or what the teacher tells them they can play, without thought
to the idea of figuring out that through experimentation and analysis, they can
figure out themselves what other songs might be within their range of ability.

Kirby studies karate at a dojo where he's gone for seven years. He's part of
a longterm group, there are many adults there who have watched his progress
all those years, and once a week he teaches a class of younger children. So
although there is a prescribed course, there are several different aspects and
there is flexibility to the learning and activities he's involved in there.

Had I just taught my kids to read and THEN unschooled, they would not be the
calmly confident people they are today. They might be saying "Okay, mom, time
to teach me division" or "Mom, you didn't teach me to spell yet." Instead of
that, I help them learn whatever is in front of them.

Sandra Dodd
April 2003

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Somebody asked Rosie, yesterday, who taught her to read. I was there,
listening. She hemmed and hawed a little - then said, brightly, "My own BRAIN taught
me to read." As if that answered it. The other kid (one of her girl scout
friends) was questioning her about homeschooling, not looking for THAT kind of
answer at all...but Rosie couldn't figure out any other way to answer the
question. I helped out by stepping in and saying, "She means she taught herself."

Pam Sorooshian
September 2003

[email protected]

SandraDodd@... writes:


> Kirby studies karate at a dojo where he's gone for seven years. He's part
> of
> a longterm group, there are many adults there who have watched his progress
> all those years, and once a week he teaches a class of younger children. So
> although there is a prescribed course, there are several different aspects
> and
> there is flexibility to the learning and activities he's involved in there.
>
>

This is exactly what DD14 has found at her dance studio and in
community theater. It all started with her own inspiration and desire, seeing opera
and plays and ballets -- it did NOT start with us and we never know quite where
it's leading. The best way we found to support her was to let her DO it, to
test and try and discover and own it. It is now leading her into teaching the
younger kids, and performing, and also technical theater (sets, lights, sound,
stage managing) which is a whole area none of us knew anything about but are
really enjoying with her.

There's a ps resource program here with semester courses the kids can
choose from. It's nice that the courses are not for credit, not tested or
graded, or under any requirements by the school, but what's REALLY great imo is
that the school forbids the parents to prescribe what the child will take! <g>

Each child chooses privately for himself, after a day of presentations
by the different teachers pitching what the course will cover and what
activities there will be (darkroom work, or field trips to the university mag lab
and planetarium, or to the on-campus day care center to read to the little kids,
or producing a tv interview for the local access channel, etc)

Done this way, the students are free to decide if they want to venture
into something new or pursue something they already are deeply involved in.
Each course winds up with some of both, kids who really can learn from each
other without embarrassment or fear or force. Even when what they learn is that
this particular area is not for them, it's a good experience.

I just think that philosophy of the child owning the learning from
start to finish, without some prescribed outcome, is so important. And here's a
ps program that gets it, while there are too many homeschooling parents who
THINK they get it, but don't at all. JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/3/04 7:03:35 AM, wifetovegman2002@... writes:

<< I understand researching something like your son's new
skateboard, to get one that he likes and will serve
him the best, or which wheels will give the best ride,
or whether graphite or WD40 is the best lubricant. >>

I don't know about skateboards, but I can tell all of you NOT to use WD40 to
loosen the tuning peg on a piano. My sister had an old upright and one string
was way out of tune, and Hey! I had a wrench from a harp! But it would not
turn. So I squirted it with WD40. It turned! Hooray!

Not hooray. It couldn't tighten up. That string was as happy as the Tin
Woodsman and just relaxed entirely. So it was still out of tune, but way low. I
thought about sticking chalk or flour or baking soda or dirt in there to soak
up the oil and decided that I better leave it the heck alone and let New
Mexico take care of coating that with dust and in a few weeks or months maybe it
could be tightened back up.

No sense ALL of us trying WD40 on a piano.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/3/04 8:46:39 AM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< I just think that philosophy of the child owning the learning from
start to finish, without some prescribed outcome, is so important. And here's
a
ps program that gets it, while there are too many homeschooling parents who
THINK they get it, but don't at all. >>

I agree, but with a big "but."

("BUT," one 't'!!)

Written just that way, some new unschoolers might jump on that "children own
their learning" and then stay too hands-off, too distant, too "it's your fault
if you're not learning."

It seems one of the failures of unschooling advice is that some people come
for just enough of it to go away and screw it up for a few years because they
leave their kids alone and they don't DO anything. Sometimes it's because the
parents are imagining "do something" as to do book reports, memorize all the
major rivers of the world, etc. But sometimes it's because the parents missed
the stories about the parents paying so much attention to their kids that they
know they have an interest in dance or theatre or karate, and the parents go
out of their way to let them try something out for a day or a year, and the
parents help them out by making sure they have supplies and money and outfits or
whatever.

And now some people might read what I just wrote and be overjoyed at the idea
that I just told them they should find something their kid has expressed an
interest in and sign them up for a year's "trial" and spend a bunch of money so
the kid will feel guilty if he doesn't finish a year.

I was using Elmer's glue yesterday. I had to mess with the nozzle (like
y'do) to get it to come out in a good stream. And once the stream was flowing, it
didn't matter how much was in the bottle, the only point at which glue was
being dispensed was right there in that second, as I moved the glue bottle
along, keeping tension by squeezing not too hard, not too soft.

Same with kids. Once energy is flowing, it doesn't matter if it's going to
be five more minutes or five more years. The parent just needs to pay
attention to that present moment and make sure things are operational and smoothly
facilitated.

Sandra

Wife2Vegman

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
>
> No sense ALL of us trying WD40 on a piano.
>
> Sandra


FYI: Glitter glue doesn't work either. BTDT :-)

I did learn a tremendous amount about how a piano it
put together, can be taken apart to clean, how to
replace felt, etc.

So I guess some unschooling good did come out of it.

The piano tuner guy was not too pleased though, and 3
years later we still are finding glue in the recesses.



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
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Wife2Vegman

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> Same with kids. Once energy is flowing, it doesn't
> matter if it's going to
> be five more minutes or five more years. The parent
> just needs to pay
> attention to that present moment and make sure
> things are operational and smoothly
> facilitated.
>
> Sandra
>

There is a great song (on one of my favorite CDs, Cows
With Guns) which is about how a little drop of water
becomes a trickle, keeps growing, breaks down the dam,
and at the end of the song the music has crescendoed
into a river flowing free.

Here's a link to the lyrics, if anyone wants to read
them:
http://www.danalyons.com/lyrics/lyrics_for_public/drop_of_water.html

The title song is great too, btw.

Anyway, the song reminds me of my family's journey to
unschooling, and how the river flows free now. Once
the dam was broken, there was no holding back the
kids' enthusiasm and joy in learning.



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/3/04 9:42:19 AM, wifetovegman2002@... writes:

<< There is a great song (on one of my favorite CDs, Cows
With Guns) which is about how a little drop of water
becomes a trickle, keeps growing, breaks down the dam,
and at the end of the song the music has crescendoed
into a river flowing free. >>

Yeah, but speaking as someone who lives in the desert, lots of drops of water
never make it past the place they fall. STILL, though every tiny bit a
child learns might someday attach itself to something else. And it can take years.

Unschooling parents don't get the privilege of seeing their children's
education all finished and neatly packaged before they turn 18. Parents of
school-kds and school-at-homers (doh!) get the illusion of a package of learning,
finished.

But what we can get if we work at understanding it is that things DO pool and
stream and flow!!

But we can't channel every drop into a torrent. That's not our job anyway.

All learning happens inside the learner. The outside indicators aren't
learning. They're tricks, or grades, or a diploma or whatever, but they're not
themselves anything LIKE learning.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/3/2004 11:45:44 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> Unschooling parents don't get the privilege of seeing their children's
> education all finished and neatly packaged before they turn 18. Parents of
> school-kds and school-at-homers (doh!) get the illusion of a package of
> learning,
> finished.
>

Oh yes, everything neat and tidy and on schedule. That is why I think it is
so hard for people to grasp real learning. There is no test, no time schedule,
no beginning or end and it can be very messy, especially to track. It moves
forwards and sideways and back upon itself and it never ends. Kind of like a
riddle...
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]