Erika Nunn

I have a question regarding praising your children. I have read "Punished
by Rewards," and so understand the main concepts from that book. However, I
have a four-year-old son who does not seem to enjoy artwork because he can't
draw so that it looks "real," or "like Daddy's." (His father is an artist.)
He generally gets very frustrated with anything he does and says things
like, "I just can't do it right!" I always made a point from the beginning
not to gush over art pieces that he does, but perhaps just notice a certain
color he used, for example, I do say things like, "That is interesting," or,
"That has a lot of lines."

To make a long story short, in the past six months or so I have explained to
him that art isn't supposed to "look right," and that it is about just doing
what we want to do and it is also about how we feel. I also started to get
excited when he would even make an attempt at art, saying more praise-type
things like, "Wow! That's really neat!" It seemed that after I started to
"praise" him more, he would get excited about his art and do more and not be
so worried about it looking "right."

So my question is, should I just be really mellow about the whole thing, or
is there a time when small amounts of praise are helpful? Or am I just
setting up my son to feel like his art has to be "neat" for me? I really
feel bad when he gets so frustrated, and want him to be able to know that
his art IS appreciated, even if he doesn't think it is worthy!

Erika :)

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joylyn

I don't generally say anything about my feelings about the art. Instead,
I might simply say "tell me about it." I might also might say things
like "you used a lot of green. What were you thinking as you were
painting this?" or "what is your favorite part of this drawing."

Joylyn

Erika Nunn wrote:

> I have a question regarding praising your children. I have read
> "Punished
> by Rewards," and so understand the main concepts from that book.
> However, I
> have a four-year-old son who does not seem to enjoy artwork because he
> can't
> draw so that it looks "real," or "like Daddy's." (His father is an
> artist.)
> He generally gets very frustrated with anything he does and says things
> like, "I just can't do it right!" I always made a point from the
> beginning
> not to gush over art pieces that he does, but perhaps just notice a
> certain
> color he used, for example, I do say things like, "That is
> interesting," or,
> "That has a lot of lines."
>
> To make a long story short, in the past six months or so I have
> explained to
> him that art isn't supposed to "look right," and that it is about just
> doing
> what we want to do and it is also about how we feel. I also started
> to get
> excited when he would even make an attempt at art, saying more
> praise-type
> things like, "Wow! That's really neat!" It seemed that after I
> started to
> "praise" him more, he would get excited about his art and do more and
> not be
> so worried about it looking "right."
>
> So my question is, should I just be really mellow about the whole
> thing, or
> is there a time when small amounts of praise are helpful? Or am I just
> setting up my son to feel like his art has to be "neat" for me? I really
> feel bad when he gets so frustrated, and want him to be able to know that
> his art IS appreciated, even if he doesn't think it is worthy!
>
> Erika :)
>
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> Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers!
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>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Penn Acres

Re Erikas question about praise.
My short answer is that I try to balance what gives the child the most pleasurable feedback that he "requires" at the time. none-mild acknowledgement-deep involvement in the content and/or reasons-huge enthusiasm.
of course-being me-i have to drag on a bit...
With my kids and gd's etc i have in the past gone way overboard with praise with the thought that I was (a) supporting their efforts (b) expressing my excitement about "artistic endeavours " because i thought this would promote more of the same.
Then after some reading I began making more statements as a previous poster mentioned-comments like "that has a happy look" etc. then I noticed that, occasionally , if my comments did not seem "excited" enough the child might "seem" disapointed so I would revert back to More enthusiastic comments.
I will say that I place more expectations on myself to try to "get it right" with my responses about creative or artistic things-(that are brought/given/shown/ to me ) because I come to it with a huge pertsonal "preference' for that type of expression.
I try to really observe how the child "presents" what they have made-if they make it and just let it lay it may be very presumptive of me to grab it and make any comments about it compared to something they draw my attention to after they have made it.
I also have a huge problem when my husband comes into my sewing room and "gushes" about something on the design wall that is no where where I want it to go eventually than when I ask him to come and look at something in progress and ask for his feedback on it. I also "expect" that he will see exactly where I am going and comment on how well that part works " ;-) " yahhh right...
For me, trying to "see" what the child had in mind and how they feel about it usually works and mainly asking about what parts of their project they like best and going from there with your comments if it looks like they would be welcome.
the killer comment of course being .. -"whats that supposed to be?"

grace
who left the sewing room an hour ago to make the girls milkshakes and didnt get back in there...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/25/2004 3:08:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
pennacres@... writes:
<<For me, trying to "see" what the child had in mind and how they feel
about it usually works and mainly asking about what parts of their project they
like best and going from there with your comments if it looks like they would
be welcome.>>


If my child does something that truly impresses me, that I really love, that
I surprises me, or that has something unusual, interesting, or really creative
about it; I'm going to express my honest enthusiasm just as I would if an
adult friend asked me about something they were doing! I wouldn't hold back or
look for clues about "what they wanted me to say." Sometimes I might like
something that they don't feel that good about or see something different in their
artwork than they do, but I think that happens with all art. Different
people see different things in the same piece and feel different ways about it.

--Jacqueline


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/25/04 8:00:25 AM, ivorygrace7@... writes:

<< just as I would if an
adult friend asked me about something they were doing! >>

That's what I was going to say.

I think of how I would respond to an adult friend. Or I used to consciously
think that. Now I just do it.

Sometimes to make an encouraging response to a kid I might say something like
"That looks fun," or "Do you need more [paper/paint/wire/beads]?" It's
supportive without being judgmental or gushy (I hope).

Sandra

pam sorooshian

On Jan 25, 2004, at 6:58 AM, ivorygrace7@... wrote:

> If my child does something that truly impresses me, that I really
> love, that
> I surprises me, or that has something unusual, interesting, or really
> creative
> about it; I'm going to express my honest enthusiasm just as I would if
> an
> adult friend asked me about something they were doing! I wouldn't
> hold back or
> look for clues about "what they wanted me to say."

I am a HUGE fan of Alfie Kohn but I don't see anything he's written as
saying we should never say anything nice to our kids.

He's saying that "using" praise or other rewards as ways to
manipulate/condition kids will have negative effects. I agree with
that.

But I'm still going to tell my kid that I think the ceramic chess set
she made for my husband is awesome. And I'm still going to say, "That
was lovely, I really enjoyed it," when my middle daughter sings for me.
And I'm going to express my appreciation of my youngest daughter's
soccer skills as she's running off the field, "Hey, you sure played
well today - great goal you scored."

When he is negative about praise, Alfie Kohn is talking about using it
as a reward to get people to do what you want them to do. He talking
about consciously trying to mold or "condition" a child - by using
"positive reinforcement" to encourage the behaviors they want the child
to increase. Probably most of us have seen parents like this (or been
parents like this) - it is standard-operating-procedure at least in
middle class families and is taken very much for granted, and also to
extremes, in most classrooms. Once you start to see it for what it is,
it all looks very very obviously insulting to the child - treating them
like lab rats who get rewarded with a food pellet for running through a
maze.

But my oldest does ceramics out of passionate love for the art. My
middle daughter sings because she is a singer - it is just a part her
of. And my youngest plays soccer for the sheer joy of it - not in order
to hear me praise her playing.

Using the promise of praise as a reward is no different than using
withholding of praise as a punishment. But that doesn't mean that every
time we say something nice to our kids, comment on something we think
they've done well, show appreciation and enjoyment of their talents and
abilities - that we're hooking them on praise. Have an authentic
relationship - don't "use" praise to try to control. Enjoy each other
genuinely. Be honest and real.

Here is what is on the flap of Alfie Kohn's book, "Punished by Rewards:
The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other
Bribes."

*********
Our basic strategy for raising children, teaching students, and
managing workers can be summarized in six words: Do this and you'll get
that. We dangle goodies (from candy bars to sales commissions) in front
of people in much the same way that we train the family pet.

In this groundbreaking book, Alfie Kohn shows that while manipulating
people with incentives seems to work in the short run, it is a strategy
that ultimately fails and even does lasting harm. Our workplaces and
classrooms will continue to decline, he argues, until we begin to
question our reliance on a theory of motivation derived from laboratory
animals.

Drawing from hundreds of studies, Kohn demonstrates that people
actually do inferior work when they are enticed with money, grades, or
other incentives. Programs that use rewards to change people's behavior
are similarly ineffective over the long run. Promising goodies to
children for good behavior can never produce anything more than
temporary obedience. In fact, the more we use artificial inducements to
motivate people, the more they lose interest in what we're bribing them
to do. Rewards turn play into work, and work into drudgery.

Step by step, Kohn marshals research and logic to prove that
pay-for-performance plans cannot work; the more an organization relies
on incentives, the worse things get. Parents and teachers who care
about helping students to learn, meanwhile, should be doing everything
possible to help them forget that grades exist. Even praise can become
a verbal bribe that gets kids hooked on our approval.

Rewards and punishments are just two sides of the same coin -- and the
coin doesn't buy very much. What is needed, Kohn explains, is an
alternative to both ways of controlling people. The final chapters
offer a practical set of strategies for parents, teachers, and managers
that move beyond the use of carrots or sticks. Seasoned with humor and
familiar examples, Punished by Rewards presents an argument that is
unsettling to hear but impossible to dismiss.

****************
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/25/2004 10:34:50 AM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:


> He's saying that "using" praise or other rewards as ways to
> manipulate/condition kids will have negative effects. I agree with
> that.
>

When my now 12yros was in Kindergarten (he went to K and 1st) the teacher had
a stoplight reward system set up. The idea was to stay on green, all day
every day. My son is really a pretty mild kid but he could not stay on green for
anything and I didn't really care. I also drove a lot on field trips and was
astonished (and I was not new to having kids in school) at how eager the kids I
was driving were to tell me how "bad" my son was, and this was kindergarten!
I always made sure to clarify, even to kindergartners that I did not agree
that my son was a "bad kid."

Anyhow my son and I had already discussed the red, yellow, green light system
and he told me it just wasn't worth the effort to try to stay on green or
even yellow as the reward for a weeks worth of "being good" was just a junky
plastic toy. That cracked me up, he has always been a smart kid. I was so glad
that he saw the reward as the toy and refused to internalize the results as him
being "good" or "bad" which is so easy to do. I felt so sorry for the kids who
actually worried themselves over not being on green. Gatto wrote something
along the line about nothing being more frustrating to a school system than a kid
who has his/her parents support?
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/25/04 11:54:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, BonKnit@...
writes:

> When my now 12yros was in Kindergarten (he went to K and 1st) the teacher
> had
> a stoplight reward system set up. The idea was to stay on green, all day
> every day. My son is really a pretty mild kid but he could not stay on green
> for
> anything and I didn't really care.

My dh's receptionist has a second grader. The school he is in has always
used a similar reward system. Each class was different but the system was the
same. In one class you started the day with three smiley faces on the board and
each time you were "bad" they erased one. The object was to end up with a
smiley on the board at the end of the day and at the end of the week the ones
that were "good" every day got a prize.

I think the next year it was a sticker thing. At the end of the day you got
a "good" sticker or a "bad" sticker. If you had 5 good stickers for the week
you got a prize.

Some kids get really stressed by this system. This one child got to a point
that he felt he wasn't worth anything because he never got a prize to him he
was a "bad" kid. He would come home and cry etc. Tell his Mom he didn't
deserve to have friends. It was really sad.

I remember giving her a couple of books to read and talking to her about
talking with the teacher or talking with him about how it didn't mean anything to
her etc. But her philosophy was that he would need to "deal with it" because
he was going to be in school for a "long time".

Needless to say this is the child that I will no longer have over to my house
without his parents because he is so mean to my boys. He teases them and
even borders on physical violence.
Sad...very sad...
Pam G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

I totally agree with what Pam and others have said about expressing genuine praise in the same way you would to a peer. The point is that the praise should be a genuine response, not the kind of empty praise some parents, grandparents, teachers (well-meaning) people tend to give. I personally always try to avoid the superlative when talking to my kids; I just don't use best, perfect, greatest, etc. I think that sets up a false expectation and falls into the negative kind of praise. The magazine _Life Learning_ has a columnist who has talked about this issue, also focusing on the idea that praise must be genuine. I remember her making the point that instead of saying how great the child was for helping that a parent should instead express the true feeling of how great it felt to have the help, or something like that. She would say, "thank you so much, that was really helpful to me." This isn't praise as a reward in hopes of having future help, but rather genuine praise that focuses on the moment.

In terms of the art, I really would express more praise than "I see lots of lines," though. I might say something like, "I like the way you're working with lines here. Were you trying to achieve a particular affect with that? Can you tell me more about it?" Art is often intended to provoke a response in others. If we don't have a response when our children show us something they've worked to create, then I can easily see that evoking a certain sense of failure. One of my best friends is an artist, and I love looking through his photo portfolio when he comes to visit. Looking through it, I always say things like "I really like the colors in this one," or "the depth of this one is amazing." Yes, it's purely subjective, but that's what art is--how it affects a particular viewer. I think he'd be really disappointed if I had no reaction or nothing to say when he showed me photos of his work other than "you've used a lot of green," you know?

--danielle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/25/2004 11:07:29 AM Central Standard Time,
Genant2@... writes:


> Some kids get really stressed by this system. This one child got to a
> point
> that he felt he wasn't worth anything because he never got a prize to him he
>
> was a "bad" kid. He would come home and cry etc. Tell his Mom he didn't
> deserve to have friends. It was really sad.
>
>

Yes and that is very sad. I was soo glad my son saw the game for what it was
and refused to play. As far as I could tell he was the only one though.
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Erika Nunn

Everybody...

Thank you for your responses regarding my praise question. I believe that
responding to your child as you would to an adult who showed you their work
makes a lot of sense. In fact, this is something that I think about a lot
when I am unsure of how to respond to my children. It is interesting how
the response I would have given to my children can sometimes be so different
than one I would give to an adult friend. And most often just thinking
about what I would say to another friend makes the "right" response so
obvious!

Erika :)


>From: joylyn <joylyn@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Praise question...
>Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 21:11:16 -0800
>
>I don't generally say anything about my feelings about the art. Instead,
>I might simply say "tell me about it." I might also might say things
>like "you used a lot of green. What were you thinking as you were
>painting this?" or "what is your favorite part of this drawing."
>
>Joylyn
>
>Erika Nunn wrote:
>
> > I have a question regarding praising your children. I have read
> > "Punished
> > by Rewards," and so understand the main concepts from that book.
> > However, I
> > have a four-year-old son who does not seem to enjoy artwork because he
> > can't
> > draw so that it looks "real," or "like Daddy's." (His father is an
> > artist.)
> > He generally gets very frustrated with anything he does and says
>things
> > like, "I just can't do it right!" I always made a point from the
> > beginning
> > not to gush over art pieces that he does, but perhaps just notice a
> > certain
> > color he used, for example, I do say things like, "That is
> > interesting," or,
> > "That has a lot of lines."
> >
> > To make a long story short, in the past six months or so I have
> > explained to
> > him that art isn't supposed to "look right," and that it is about just
> > doing
> > what we want to do and it is also about how we feel. I also started
> > to get
> > excited when he would even make an attempt at art, saying more
> > praise-type
> > things like, "Wow! That's really neat!" It seemed that after I
> > started to
> > "praise" him more, he would get excited about his art and do more and
> > not be
> > so worried about it looking "right."
> >
> > So my question is, should I just be really mellow about the whole
> > thing, or
> > is there a time when small amounts of praise are helpful? Or am I just
> > setting up my son to feel like his art has to be "neat" for me? I
>really
> > feel bad when he gets so frustrated, and want him to be able to know
>that
> > his art IS appreciated, even if he doesn't think it is worthy!
> >
> > Erika :)
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers!
> > http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
> >
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> >
><mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
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>
>
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Penn Acres

Another thought was that is Ericas husband works in some particular mediums perhaps her son might enjoy supplies in another so that it isnt so much comparison.
Some that the girls have enjoyed are "collage" type things-3d type things with toilet paper rolls-salt dough shapes dried and glued on painted pieces of wood-cardboard to make scenes-twigs-cones-stones-glued on to water scenes. A bottle of a real good wood glue solves the "school glue" frustrations.
I often put in a specific request-ie-"if you would like to make me something really bright and sunny for the frig it would sure cheer me up on such a cold grey day?
grace
whose girls just left for a birthday party at a local motel/water slide that they have been looking forward to with such excitement.And I am off to the sewing room....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], "Erika Nunn"
<erikanunn@h...> wrote:
However, I
> > have a four-year-old son who does not seem to enjoy artwork
because he
> > can't
> > draw so that it looks "real," or "like Daddy's." (His father is an
> > artist.)
> > He generally gets very frustrated with anything he does and says
>things
> > like, "I just can't do it right!"

When I read the Sudbury Valley books, one of the essays pointed out
that kids of all ages will do that. While we the adults are
thinking, "That's great for four/six/eight years old -- I couldn't
use shading or perspective like that when I was that young (or
whatever)" the kid isn't thinking how well they're doing for their
age. They're thinking about how close the finished product looks
compared to the picture they have in their head. Sometimes they'll
rip up a picture in frustration -- and then two days later come out
with something that "looks right" to them. It's part of the process.

What other people have suggested -- pointing out what you notice
about a piece, or the "lots of green" approach <g> -- can give any
artist some helpful feedback during their process -- as long as they
want the feedback.

Peace,
Amy

[email protected]

Maybe his dad telling him (if it's true) that when he was little his animals
and people didn't look right yet either, but gradually they got better, would
help too.

Sandra

Danielle Conger

Any chances that dad's mom still has some of his artwork from this age? That could be really useful and fun!

--danielle

Maybe his dad telling him (if it's true) that when he was little his animals
and people didn't look right yet either, but gradually they got better, would
help too.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/25/04 11:30:33 AM, danielle.conger@... writes:

<< In terms of the art, I really would express more praise than "I see lots
of lines," though. I might say something like, "I like the way you're working
with lines here. Were you trying to achieve a particular affect with that? Can
you tell me more about it?" >>

Even those, though, sound like the messages of an art teacher trained to draw
children out, or of a child therapist.

I wouldn't say things like that to an adult friend, nor to an artist at a
gallery.

<<Art is often intended to provoke a response in others. If we don't have a
response when our children show us something they've worked to create, then I
can easily see that evoking a certain sense of failure.>>

But the response doesn't need to be verbal.

You could offer to put it up on the wall, and collect them ultimately in a
box or a big folder or portfolio, dated and in order. You could offer to make a
color photocopy for grandma. You could photograph the child holding the art
to put in the folder with it so you'd see how old he was when it happened.
Those kinds of things are done for professional artists: their work is
archived, reproduced, photographed.

Sandra

Danielle Conger

Sandra wrote:

In a message dated 1/25/04 11:30:33 AM, danielle.conger@... writes:

<< In terms of the art, I really would express more praise than "I see lots
of lines," though. I might say something like, "I like the way you're working
with lines here. Were you trying to achieve a particular affect with that? Can
you tell me more about it?" >>

Even those, though, sound like the messages of an art teacher trained to draw
children out, or of a child therapist.

I wouldn't say things like that to an adult friend, nor to an artist at a
gallery.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm...

But those are exactly the kinds of things I say to my adult friend, though perhaps phrased a slightly differently. (Remember my kids are 6, 5 an 3.5--I try not to speak condescendingly, but I do sometimes have to phrase things a bit differently.) And those are the kinds of things I *have* said to artists in art galleries and writers at conferences that have spawned really interesting conversations.

Like I said, when my good friend brings his photo portfolio, dh and I will look through it with him, analyzing each photo. He's trying to do stuff with his art, so he really looks forward to sharing it with people who will draw him out. (He's even sent us photos over email while he's working on a piece.) Kind of in the same way I would appreciate someone commenting on my writing. Not as a teacher, but definitely as someone who's engaged with it and wanting to offer thoughtful suggestions or comments. When a peer reads something I've written and says something like, "Gee, I really liked the way you phrased x, but what were you really getting at? Can you tell me more about that?" I don't think they're being condescending; I think they're trying to get me to dig deeper into the topic that I'm exploring. Now, it would be annoying if they were saying that, all the while knowing where they wanted me to end up and not saying it. But if they are trying to get me to go further because they're interested and offering their own thoughts and commentaries along the way, then that is a wonderful intellectual exchange that I really value. Kind of like this list! >g<

I definitely *would* say, "Oh, I really like the lines in this one. It's so linear. We're you trying to do something specific here?" Often I will say, "Tell me more about this!" because lots of times he's doing really subtle political commentary in his work. I might catch on, but lots of times I don't. And as with writing, I may not be getting it because I'm just not catching on, or it may indicate that he needs to go back and tweak it a bit more.

With art, writing, whatever, when someone trusts a person enough to show them a work in progress, I believe that the artist/ writer genuinely wants some input. We don't always like the input we get >g<, and there are times where we really do just want a pat on the back. But if all we get are pats on the back, pretty soon, chances are we're going to stop trusting that person's opinion.

--danielle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/25/04 6:33:54 PM, danielle.conger@... writes:

<< "Gee, I really liked the way you phrased x, but what were you really
getting at? Can you tell me more about that?" >>

If they can't tell what I'm getting at, I'm not a very good writer!
(Maybe just a bad example...)

"You used a lot of red" would ellicit in me a response perhaps like, "Yeah, I
know." ("Duh," except that would be rude.)

<< But if all we get are pats on the back, pretty soon, chances are we're
going to stop trusting that person's opinion. >>

Yes, but questions just put in to be questions (to indicate interest) strike
me just too much like therapist questions. ("And how do you feel about that?"
"Does that bother you?")

Sandra

Danielle Conger

Sandra wrote:
In a message dated 1/25/04 6:33:54 PM, danielle.conger@... writes:

<< "Gee, I really liked the way you phrased x, but what were you really
getting at? Can you tell me more about that?" >>

If they can't tell what I'm getting at, I'm not a very good writer!
(Maybe just a bad example...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

No not a bad example. Just depends on where the piece of writing is, I guess. Sometimes works in progress are works in progress. There are things I can dash off, and they sound fine. Other things take me more than one draft and really benefit from readers who can say things like "I don't know what you're getting at here." Not a matter of being a "good" writer or a "bad" writer, but a matter of piece of writing needing some more thought.

Lots of times writing for me is a discovery process--I write into what it is I wanted to say all along without knowing it. This is why writing, debating, challenging help me to crystalize my own thoughts and opinions. Without other intelligent people whom I trust to push me along in that process, I might not get there as quickly. Takes me a while to gain the distance from my own arguments that others can offer immediately.

--danielle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Jan 25, 2004, at 5:30 PM, Danielle Conger wrote:

> With art, writing, whatever, when someone trusts a person enough to
> show them a work in progress, I believe that the artist/ writer
> genuinely wants some input.

Really good artists or writers want critique, not just positive
comments, too.

My 19 yo took an English class at the community college a few years ago
and came home after a few class meetings saying, "I cannot believe how
cool this is. They PAY someone to read what I write and criticize it."

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/25/2004 8:31:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Maybe his dad telling him (if it's true) that when he was little his animals
and people didn't look right yet either, but gradually they got better, would
help too.
*********************
One of the things I've found that intimidates young writers is reading their
favorite writers! They compare their writing to the finished, edited, and
exceptional example before them, and they figure they'll never be that good.
Showing an example of something before editing often helps.

Same thing with being an artist. I'd be willing to bet that Dad, as an
artist, is NOT happy with every piece he does. It's a process.

There are also a couple of great drawing books that you can use to help kids
if they want it. Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain is great, but for
working with kids, even better is Drawing with Children, by Mona Brookes.

Kathryn


Come to the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference August 27-29 in Peabody, MA!
For more information, go to www.LiveandLearnConference.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I don't generally say anything about my feelings
about the art. Instead,
> I might simply say "tell me about it." I might also might say things
> like "you used a lot of green. What were you thinking as you were
> painting this?" or "what is your favorite part of this drawing."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I also live with a small artist (4yo muralist to be exact <grin>). I always
express my feelings to my kids about whatever it is they come show me. I
don't gush and make a big deal but I am honest and respond from my heart.
Does that mean I think every piece of paper is a piece of art? Of course
not. But the colors are usually pretty together and I let the kids know.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "joylyn" <joylyn@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Praise question...


> >
> Joylyn
>
> Erika Nunn wrote:
>
> > I have a question regarding praising your children. I have read
> > "Punished
> > by Rewards," and so understand the main concepts from that book.
> > However, I
> > have a four-year-old son who does not seem to enjoy artwork because he
> > can't
> > draw so that it looks "real," or "like Daddy's." (His father is an
> > artist.)
> > He generally gets very frustrated with anything he does and says
things
> > like, "I just can't do it right!" I always made a point from the
> > beginning
> > not to gush over art pieces that he does, but perhaps just notice a
> > certain
> > color he used, for example, I do say things like, "That is
> > interesting," or,
> > "That has a lot of lines."
> >
> > To make a long story short, in the past six months or so I have
> > explained to
> > him that art isn't supposed to "look right," and that it is about just
> > doing
> > what we want to do and it is also about how we feel. I also started
> > to get
> > excited when he would even make an attempt at art, saying more
> > praise-type
> > things like, "Wow! That's really neat!" It seemed that after I
> > started to
> > "praise" him more, he would get excited about his art and do more and
> > not be
> > so worried about it looking "right."
> >
> > So my question is, should I just be really mellow about the whole
> > thing, or
> > is there a time when small amounts of praise are helpful? Or am I just
> > setting up my son to feel like his art has to be "neat" for me? I
really
> > feel bad when he gets so frustrated, and want him to be able to know
that
> > his art IS appreciated, even if he doesn't think it is worthy!
> >
> > Erika :)
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers!
> > http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> >
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> >
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e>
> >
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> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
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>

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>
> On Jan 25, 2004, at 5:30 PM, Danielle Conger wrote:
>
> > With art, writing, whatever, when someone trusts a person enough to
> > show them a work in progress, I believe that the artist/ writer
> > genuinely wants some input.
>
> Really good artists or writers want critique, not just positive
> comments, too.
>
> My 19 yo took an English class at the community college a few years ago
> and came home after a few class meetings saying, "I cannot believe how
> cool this is. They PAY someone to read what I write and criticize it."


Jumping in a tad late but can't resist a writing thread. :)

I usually just ask a student or child if he or she wants feedback that is about the
writing itself or the ideas. It really is important to know in advance. The most common
cause of writer's block is fear of being criticized, judged or simply found out to be a
poor writer.

Positive feedback actually creates more progress in writing than any amount of
"constructive criticsm" when dealing with resistant or even risk-taking writers.

And even kids who say they want their work to be criticzed are often tricking
themselves. What they're really saying is this: "I know you usually only give positive
feedback. I want to know that what I wrote is actually really good so if I tell you I want
criticism, it's so that I'll know you *could* give it but don't because what I've written is
soooo good."

This doesn't just apply to kids, by the way. I've been an editor for nearly ten years.
Most people who ask for criticism think their writing doesn't need it.

But some kids/adults really are ready to deal with their work in a more disciplined,
mature way. One way to know this is to find the positive things but then to hone in on
one substantive issue (a mistake that has to do with meaning rather than just
grammar or punctuation). Choose only one thing. Focus on clarifying a vague
comment or adding support to an idea.

See how that goes and then it's possible to give more feedback. The act of writing
itself is a huge teacher. Getting feedback that is supportive but accurate (that believes
in the writer's ability to deliver) is the next level.

Julie Bogart
http://www.bravewriter.com
Online writing help for homeschool

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/26/04 8:26:41 AM, julie@... writes:

<< And even kids who say they want their work to be criticzed are often
tricking

themselves. >>

When I was a kid and had decided writing was really fun and could be as great
a tool as a musical instrument, I had an 8th grade English teacher named
Richard Martinez. It was a 9th grade class, but I had some problems that year,
and none of the 8th grade teachers would take me. My mom had left my dad (she
came back, and my memories come back after that too, but for the time she was
gone I have fuzzy memories) and I was acting out at school. I must have
insulted my English teacher and refused to apologize or something. I really don't
remember.

The counsellor said "What are we going to do with you? English is required."
I said "Put me in the top 7th grade class?"

"We can't do that, you already have that credit."

"Put me in the bottom 9th grade class?"

His eyes lit up and they put me in the 2nd (of 12 or so) 9th grade classes.

So there was no pressure on me. I was not really a 9th grader. And it was
grammar and composition. I loved it. And the teacher marked for mechanics,
and I loved that. When he could show me how to use a semi-colon or a dash or
parentheses more elegantly, I felt like I was dancing. The next year I took
his class again, and if I got a paper back with few to no red marks I was truly
disappointed. I LOVED his feedback, and his "look, this comma is
unnecessary, and it would sound more like you if you went straight to the verb and
emphasized that."

Possibly I'm a freak.

Sandra

Kelly Lenhart

>So there was no pressure on me. I was not really a 9th grader. And it was
>grammar and composition. I loved it. And the teacher marked for
mechanics,
>and I loved that. When he could show me how to use a semi-colon or a dash
or
>parentheses more elegantly, I felt like I was dancing. The next year I
took
>his class again, and if I got a paper back with few to no red marks I was
truly
>disappointed. I LOVED his feedback, and his "look, this comma is
>unnecessary, and it would sound more like you if you went straight to the
verb and
>emphasized that."

>Possibly I'm a freak.
>Sandra

Nope. Just a writer.

Oh, wait......-smirk-

Kelly (who TOTALLY understands this.)

Lisa H

Julie,
I really appreciate your comments as an editor. Reminds me of the introduction in Julia Camerons book "The Artists Way." She indicates if you focus on the strengths and what works in a writers piece the rest will fall away naturally.

She also is highly critical of undergraduate writing classes as doing more damage than good to most writers. I had always taken college writing classes throughout my twenties and the worst experience I had was with a teacher who only focused on my misuse of commas. It was one of the few experiences I've had when I felt like a terrible writer - took the joy right out of the process. I suppose the positive that came out of that was learning to use an editor before submitting anything for critique.

Lisa Heyman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

liza sabater

Sorry for replying to this so late.

On Sunday, January 25, 2004, at 01:04 PM, Danielle Conger wrote:

> In terms of the art, I really would express more praise than "I see
> lots of lines," though. I might say something like, "I like the way
> you're working with lines here. Were you trying to achieve a
> particular affect with that? Can you tell me more about it?" Art is
> often intended to provoke a response in others. If we don't have a
> response when our children show us something they've worked to create,
> then I can easily see that evoking a certain sense of failure. One of
> my best friends is an artist, and I love looking through his photo
> portfolio when he comes to visit. Looking through it, I always say
> things like "I really like the colors in this one," or "the depth of
> this one is amazing." Yes, it's purely subjective, but that's what art
> is--how it affects a particular viewer. I think he'd be really
> disappointed if I had no reaction or nothing to say when he showed me
> photos of his work other than "you've used a lot of green," you know?

I always tell people that it would be a good idea to go to the MET or
pick up a catalog of abstract expressionist art. Once you see work by
Jackson Pollock, DeKooning or Guston, it kind of makes you look at kids
artistic expression in a different light. And it will inspire your
children too. This is a list of artists that my children enjoy and find
as an inspiration:

Jackson Pollock (especially after "Olivia", the children's book)
Philip Guston (especially his later work, which is very R. Crumb-like)
Whilhelm DeKooning
Paul Klee
Jean-Michel Basquiat
Keith Haring
Naim Yung Paik
Bill Viola

My husband is an artist and the kids get to see the art of 'right now'.
Here's a very short list of contemporary American artists that the kids
may also dig:

Mark Napier aka daddy-o
Corey Archangel
John Klima
Kevin & Jennifer McCoy
Alex Galloway
Fernando Lozano-Hemmer
John Simon
Yael Karnarek

I think that all of them have pieces at the Whitney Museum's Art
Portal. John Simon and Mark also have pieces at The Guggenheim. Another
place to look for their work is SFMoma and The New Museum.

best,
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

liza sabater

On Sunday, January 25, 2004, at 08:00 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/25/04 11:30:33 AM, danielle.conger@...
> writes:
>
> << In terms of the art, I really would express more praise than "I see
> lots
> of lines," though. I might say something like, "I like the way you're
> working
> with lines here. Were you trying to achieve a particular affect with
> that? Can
> you tell me more about it?" >>
>
> Even those, though, sound like the messages of an art teacher trained
> to draw
> children out, or of a child therapist.
>
> I wouldn't say things like that to an adult friend, nor to an artist
> at a
> gallery.

IMHO some artists do like to hear those sort of things, especially if
their art is grounded in gestural or expressive use of color and form.
The question is, does it get tricky when talking to children about
their work? It may and may not. My kids hear these kinds of
conversations about art often enough that it is part of how we talk to
each other about our works.

> <<Art is often intended to provoke a response in others. If we don't
> have a
> response when our children show us something they've worked to create,
> then I
> can easily see that evoking a certain sense of failure.>>
>
> But the response doesn't need to be verbal.
>
> You could offer to put it up on the wall, and collect them ultimately
> in a
> box or a big folder or portfolio, dated and in order. You could offer
> to make a
> color photocopy for grandma. You could photograph the child holding
> the art
> to put in the folder with it so you'd see how old he was when it
> happened.
> Those kinds of things are done for professional artists: their work is
> archived, reproduced, photographed.
>
> Sandra
>

This is true. Due to our lack of space the kids art hangs next to
daddy's (and some of mommy's) work. To us, it's just an expression of
what we are/were interested at the moment, not just Art. So as easily
as it goes up it comes down. No big deal. But, one thing I am sure
about ---I never, EVER throw out anything without their approval. And
what does not hang is dated, signed and put away in an artist's
portfolio --until it get massive and once again we have to do another
round of weeding.

best,
liza