interesting questions from my husband
Rachel Ross
Okay, I know I am new to this group. I have posted a few things
here. I have spent the last week reading through archives, so I
could get a better feel for this group. At first, I had a knee jerk
reaction to an answer Sandra gave someone and sent a shocked response
to her not, thankfully Deb L. caught it. (Thanks) I wasn't the one
who posted "the" attack email to Sandra that she has recently written about. Like everyone said, this is
a place that you don't want to throw something out there unless you
are prepared to see it challenged. So here goes. The following
comes from my husband. We were having a really nice conversation on
unschooling vs.relaxed homeschooling. He threw out an interesting
comment/question. I can't wait to hear what everyone has to say (his remarks are
in blue.)
He said,**** "Has anyone ever unschooled their kids and because their
kids were lazy, or totally disinterested in things they might need to
know to make an actual living, or unschooling failed those kids?" Is
it really wrong to have any expectations of one's kids. And I am not
talking about making a living one person wants to live on. What if
our kids want to get married and have kids, and wants them to be
homeschooled/unschooled and they can't make the money to that.
Wouldn't we have failed our kids? Isn't there a list out there called
Unschooling Disaster Stories?" Not everything works for everybody."
Then he went on to say, "You know that I love our kids as much as you
do. They are our children. It's makes me sad that you are so
disappointed in me not just agreeing with you. I can see your point
and where you are coming from, but I just don't know if I buy the
whole unschooling thing like you do. How do we raise 'our' children
being far apart on such an integral issue? I know you love me, and I
love you, but you seem more disappointed that I don't agree with you,
and I am not disappointed that you don't agree with me."*******
Some of my responses were to tell him that I thought having expectations that our kids pursue what they love and will find those things out when ready are good expectations. That if our kids made a commitment to some kind of activity and wanted to stop, not because they didn't like it anymore, but because it was becoming harder or more challenging, that it might be a good thing to expect them to really give it some thought before totally giving up (not that that would stop them from giving up anyway). I remember thinking back in my 20s how I wished my parents had pushed me to stay with the Cello. (I give up on alot of stuff of my own admittance) because I might be a great player. But upon thinking about it, I realized that "might" be a great cellist,isn't a good enough reason for my parents pushing me. Clearly, I had other things on my mind. I did tell him that once I read on a local homeschooling list about a mom who's unschooled son really wanted to go to a certain college, or
get into a certain collegiate program (??), and couldn't get in because his math abilities were atrocious. The mom was questioning that maybe she should have "taught"him stuff. Her kid was blaming her for his limited ability. He actually told her it was her fault he didn't know what he should. I said that our kids education has to belong to them. My husband said, "How do they know now, what we have only figured out recently, the kinds of thing one needs to know so that having the life you want is easier to live? Don't parents' experiences count for something when raising their kids. How can someone who is 4 or 7 even understand that their education belongs to them, aren't we supposed to be here to help them? Is raising kids just about giving them food, shelter and love, the rest is just up to them. Wouldn't that feel scary to a kid that it is up to them?"
Ok, so there you have it. There was more, alot more that we both said. But this was the most important stuff he spoke about. My husband is a thoughtful,caring, very intelligent guy. He can keep his calm and I am the passionate zealot. BUT, I was really calm and chilled out during this talk ( a good thing).
Anyway, I would really love to hear what the more experienced unschoolers out there have to say about this. Please don't write my husband off as some ignorant, intolerant, control freak. That isn't what this is about. It is about a true curiosity and genuine concern for his kids' futures.
Thanks,
Rachel
*Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.
-Mark Twain
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
here. I have spent the last week reading through archives, so I
could get a better feel for this group. At first, I had a knee jerk
reaction to an answer Sandra gave someone and sent a shocked response
to her not, thankfully Deb L. caught it. (Thanks) I wasn't the one
who posted "the" attack email to Sandra that she has recently written about. Like everyone said, this is
a place that you don't want to throw something out there unless you
are prepared to see it challenged. So here goes. The following
comes from my husband. We were having a really nice conversation on
unschooling vs.relaxed homeschooling. He threw out an interesting
comment/question. I can't wait to hear what everyone has to say (his remarks are
in blue.)
He said,**** "Has anyone ever unschooled their kids and because their
kids were lazy, or totally disinterested in things they might need to
know to make an actual living, or unschooling failed those kids?" Is
it really wrong to have any expectations of one's kids. And I am not
talking about making a living one person wants to live on. What if
our kids want to get married and have kids, and wants them to be
homeschooled/unschooled and they can't make the money to that.
Wouldn't we have failed our kids? Isn't there a list out there called
Unschooling Disaster Stories?" Not everything works for everybody."
Then he went on to say, "You know that I love our kids as much as you
do. They are our children. It's makes me sad that you are so
disappointed in me not just agreeing with you. I can see your point
and where you are coming from, but I just don't know if I buy the
whole unschooling thing like you do. How do we raise 'our' children
being far apart on such an integral issue? I know you love me, and I
love you, but you seem more disappointed that I don't agree with you,
and I am not disappointed that you don't agree with me."*******
Some of my responses were to tell him that I thought having expectations that our kids pursue what they love and will find those things out when ready are good expectations. That if our kids made a commitment to some kind of activity and wanted to stop, not because they didn't like it anymore, but because it was becoming harder or more challenging, that it might be a good thing to expect them to really give it some thought before totally giving up (not that that would stop them from giving up anyway). I remember thinking back in my 20s how I wished my parents had pushed me to stay with the Cello. (I give up on alot of stuff of my own admittance) because I might be a great player. But upon thinking about it, I realized that "might" be a great cellist,isn't a good enough reason for my parents pushing me. Clearly, I had other things on my mind. I did tell him that once I read on a local homeschooling list about a mom who's unschooled son really wanted to go to a certain college, or
get into a certain collegiate program (??), and couldn't get in because his math abilities were atrocious. The mom was questioning that maybe she should have "taught"him stuff. Her kid was blaming her for his limited ability. He actually told her it was her fault he didn't know what he should. I said that our kids education has to belong to them. My husband said, "How do they know now, what we have only figured out recently, the kinds of thing one needs to know so that having the life you want is easier to live? Don't parents' experiences count for something when raising their kids. How can someone who is 4 or 7 even understand that their education belongs to them, aren't we supposed to be here to help them? Is raising kids just about giving them food, shelter and love, the rest is just up to them. Wouldn't that feel scary to a kid that it is up to them?"
Ok, so there you have it. There was more, alot more that we both said. But this was the most important stuff he spoke about. My husband is a thoughtful,caring, very intelligent guy. He can keep his calm and I am the passionate zealot. BUT, I was really calm and chilled out during this talk ( a good thing).
Anyway, I would really love to hear what the more experienced unschoolers out there have to say about this. Please don't write my husband off as some ignorant, intolerant, control freak. That isn't what this is about. It is about a true curiosity and genuine concern for his kids' futures.
Thanks,
Rachel
*Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.
-Mark Twain
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza sabater
On Wednesday, January 21, 2004, at 04:14 PM, Rachel Ross wrote:
should look through the archives because his questions are not new. my
question to him is simple --are you so worried about the future that
you are losing focus on the present?
the example of the mom and math is particularly interesting: if she had
been focused on what was important for her son NOW, they probably would
have been able to work out a way for him to use a prep program or get
tutoring in order for him to achieve his goal NOW. what you described
was a dysfunctional relationship that could easily be substituted with
any other kind of dysfunctional relationship. by your description they
were caught in the drama of the future math problems and turned the
situation into a blame game, to cover for each other's insecurities.
i've seen that many times played out, it is not an un/homeschooling
thing.
but then, to go back to the beginning of the post, when i read this:
1. Lazy
2. Desinterest
3. Things you might need to know
4. Actual Living
5. Failure
and the biggies,
6. Right
7. Wrong
i am basically giving him keywords to use throughout the archives. very
interesting posts will pop-out for him. I am sure that Sandra has
timely articles on her website as well. another word to look for is:
8. Semantics
it has been discussed many times in this here list the importance of
semantics. that there is a difference between saying "kids learn" vs.
"kids teach themselves" or the difference between "learning" and
"education". take away right and wrong from the previous keywords list,
and we may not be talking about the same thing when using the 5 first
items. i have an idea what it means to you, but defining these terms by
yourself and clarifying what they mean to you intellectually and, most
importantly, emotionally may be what makes you look at unschooling as
something you 'can't buy'.
which, in effect, *we all can't buy* because it is not something to
buy, it is a process, a life compass.
further down the post, i read this:
how to live life. i do not say this lightly or in an off-putting way. i
wish i could live with that certainty --i do not. but i was the kind of
child that wanted to grow up to be like leonardo divinci, learning all
the time. so, i am truly marveled when i hear people say that they've
figured life out. it's too big a thing for me to process
intellectually, needless to say emotionally.
of my son's vocabularies and they will happen to be 4 and 7 this year.
as they like to quote from the 'Tony Hawk Gigantic Tour' videos: I'm
just here to be (imagine an almost 4 year old with an Elmer Fudd lisp
saying that. It's really funny).
9. Strewing
what i mean :)
10. Freedom
and read Sandra's recent post, "How much freedom". A true keeper.
best,
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I would really love to hear what the more experienced unschoolers outthere is so much in your email ... i really think he (and also you)
> there have to say about this. Please don't write my husband off as
> some ignorant, intolerant, control freak. That isn't what this is
> about. It is about a true curiosity and genuine concern for his kids'
> futures.
should look through the archives because his questions are not new. my
question to him is simple --are you so worried about the future that
you are losing focus on the present?
the example of the mom and math is particularly interesting: if she had
been focused on what was important for her son NOW, they probably would
have been able to work out a way for him to use a prep program or get
tutoring in order for him to achieve his goal NOW. what you described
was a dysfunctional relationship that could easily be substituted with
any other kind of dysfunctional relationship. by your description they
were caught in the drama of the future math problems and turned the
situation into a blame game, to cover for each other's insecurities.
i've seen that many times played out, it is not an un/homeschooling
thing.
but then, to go back to the beginning of the post, when i read this:
> Has anyone ever unschooled their kids and because theiri immediately want to ask, how do you define:
> kids were lazy, or totally disinterested in things they might need to
> know to make an actual living, or unschooling failed those kids?" Is
> it really wrong to have any expectations of one's kids.
1. Lazy
2. Desinterest
3. Things you might need to know
4. Actual Living
5. Failure
and the biggies,
6. Right
7. Wrong
i am basically giving him keywords to use throughout the archives. very
interesting posts will pop-out for him. I am sure that Sandra has
timely articles on her website as well. another word to look for is:
8. Semantics
it has been discussed many times in this here list the importance of
semantics. that there is a difference between saying "kids learn" vs.
"kids teach themselves" or the difference between "learning" and
"education". take away right and wrong from the previous keywords list,
and we may not be talking about the same thing when using the 5 first
items. i have an idea what it means to you, but defining these terms by
yourself and clarifying what they mean to you intellectually and, most
importantly, emotionally may be what makes you look at unschooling as
something you 'can't buy'.
which, in effect, *we all can't buy* because it is not something to
buy, it is a process, a life compass.
further down the post, i read this:
> How do they know now, what we have only figured out recently, themy first reaction to this is, how lucky he is that he has figured out
> kinds of thing one needs to know so that having the life you want is
> easier to live?
how to live life. i do not say this lightly or in an off-putting way. i
wish i could live with that certainty --i do not. but i was the kind of
child that wanted to grow up to be like leonardo divinci, learning all
the time. so, i am truly marveled when i hear people say that they've
figured life out. it's too big a thing for me to process
intellectually, needless to say emotionally.
> Don't parents' experiences count for something when raising their kids.of course they do. unschooling is not neglect, benign or otherwise.
> How can someone who is 4 or 7 even understand that their educationbut they don't. i don't even think that word, education, is in either
> belongs to them,
of my son's vocabularies and they will happen to be 4 and 7 this year.
as they like to quote from the 'Tony Hawk Gigantic Tour' videos: I'm
just here to be (imagine an almost 4 year old with an Elmer Fudd lisp
saying that. It's really funny).
> aren't we supposed to be here to help them?ABSOLUTELY! Another search word for y'all:
9. Strewing
> Is raising kids just about giving them food, shelter and love, thesearch the archives using the aforementioned keyword and you'll read
> rest is just up to them.
what i mean :)
> Wouldn't that feel scary to a kid that it is up to them?to live freely? to be freely?
10. Freedom
and read Sandra's recent post, "How much freedom". A true keeper.
best,
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rachel_foodie
--- In [email protected], liza sabater
<listdiva@c...> wrote:
my
of a balance than me. I see mostly the present, and he sees mostly
the "what ifs" of the future. I'll admit he does have a hard time
staying in the present. In his own life he looks to the future alot.
Hell, after my mom died of cancer that took her in 5 months at the
age of 53 (3 years ago) I don't always bank on a future. Not that I
am saying one should live their lives like none of the decisions they
make today won't have consequeces, but I think it's wise to stay
mostly in the present because it is all we have.
of things I would like to read about, but never thought of the above
for possibly helping my dh.
things by Sandra since I first read something by her in HEM years
ago. (Even though she and I are different in many ways, we had
similar formative re: parenting influences: LLL, Mothering, GWS,HEM
magazines, read alot of John Holt etc). I think I am good at
strewing. I don't know how interested my kids are in anything I
have "strewed". That's their deal. I do try to have things around and
talk about things that are interesting to me and that they might
like. A cool thing I just did was to buy bird seed.I haven't done
that before. Never thought about it. I did it mostly because I get a
kick out of squirrels. But, lo and behold, no squirrels showed up,
but lots of birds did. Andrew and I have been fascinated by all of
them and watching how different types of birds have different
personalities. So that has been really fun. But nothing I "strew"
right now is more interesting than gamecube, music, movies and
strongbad. <g> I am totally fine with that. Dearest hubby is having
more of a problem (obviously).:-)
think he was talking about feel like those big people that brought
them into the world weren't going to leave them alone to figure it
out.
husband, along with yours. Hopefully it will give him more insight to
this thing we call unschooling. However, since I really prefer
unschooling my kids, that also extends to my hunny. If he doesn't
want to learn more about unschooling, there is not a whole lot I can
do. Or he could read thru the archives and still feel and believe the
way he does about education. Oh well. Diversity is what makes the
world more interesting, so I'll just have to deal with chips where
they fall.
Thanks,
Rachel
<listdiva@c...> wrote:
my
> question to him is simple --are you so worried about the futurethat
> you are losing focus on the present?Yup! That was one of my questions to him too! He says he sees more
of a balance than me. I see mostly the present, and he sees mostly
the "what ifs" of the future. I'll admit he does have a hard time
staying in the present. In his own life he looks to the future alot.
Hell, after my mom died of cancer that took her in 5 months at the
age of 53 (3 years ago) I don't always bank on a future. Not that I
am saying one should live their lives like none of the decisions they
make today won't have consequeces, but I think it's wise to stay
mostly in the present because it is all we have.
> 1. Lazyvery
> 2. Desinterest
> 3. Things you might need to know
> 4. Actual Living
> 5. Failure
>
> and the biggies,
>
> 6. Right
> 7. Wrong
>
> i am basically giving him keywords to use throughout the archives.
> interesting posts will pop-out for him.Thanks for these. I have been reading through the archives thinking
of things I would like to read about, but never thought of the above
for possibly helping my dh.
>I know all about strewing (not to be smug). I have been reading
> 9. Strewing
things by Sandra since I first read something by her in HEM years
ago. (Even though she and I are different in many ways, we had
similar formative re: parenting influences: LLL, Mothering, GWS,HEM
magazines, read alot of John Holt etc). I think I am good at
strewing. I don't know how interested my kids are in anything I
have "strewed". That's their deal. I do try to have things around and
talk about things that are interesting to me and that they might
like. A cool thing I just did was to buy bird seed.I haven't done
that before. Never thought about it. I did it mostly because I get a
kick out of squirrels. But, lo and behold, no squirrels showed up,
but lots of birds did. Andrew and I have been fascinated by all of
them and watching how different types of birds have different
personalities. So that has been really fun. But nothing I "strew"
right now is more interesting than gamecube, music, movies and
strongbad. <g> I am totally fine with that. Dearest hubby is having
more of a problem (obviously).:-)
>Nah, I don't think that was were he was going, meaning being free, I
>
> > Wouldn't that feel scary to a kid that it is up to them?
>
> to live freely? to be freely?
think he was talking about feel like those big people that brought
them into the world weren't going to leave them alone to figure it
out.
>I thought the above post was awesome. I am going to send it to my
> 10. Freedom
>
> and read Sandra's recent post, "How much freedom". A true keeper.
>
husband, along with yours. Hopefully it will give him more insight to
this thing we call unschooling. However, since I really prefer
unschooling my kids, that also extends to my hunny. If he doesn't
want to learn more about unschooling, there is not a whole lot I can
do. Or he could read thru the archives and still feel and believe the
way he does about education. Oh well. Diversity is what makes the
world more interesting, so I'll just have to deal with chips where
they fall.
Thanks,
Rachel
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/21/2004 8:57:15 PM Central Standard Time,
rachel_foodie@... writes:
hsing/unschooling or how old your kids are or if they were formally in school, all of
that makes a difference IMHO. From what you write here I don't hear your DH
saying "no way, not with my kids". He sounds like he is open to the idea but
needs more information and maybe just time. My DH and I had some of the same
problems you are experiencing but we kept on talking and learning and living and
the kids kept coming along and interacting with him so that eventually he was
able to see it too.
I would also like to add that I have seen schools create totally
disinterested kids, I don't know if I would call them lazy, the schools probably would as
might their parents but I saw kids who had just shut down, tuned out so to
speak. There are no guarantees in life.
< That if our kids made a commitment to some kind of activity and wanted to
stop, not because they didn't like it anymore, but because it was becoming
harder or more challenging, that it might be a good thing to expect them to really
give it some thought before totally giving up (not that that would stop them
from giving up anyway).>
My kids start and stop things but I do not so much think it is because it
became too hard. What I do find is that as we travel farther along this path my
kids and myself have become so much more in tune with ourselves that we know
very fast if something we try is a fit or not. I don't make my kids continue
with something they are sure they don't want to do. They have made a decision
though to stick with something like a sports team who they knew counted on them
to be there, but they made the choice I did not force it.
<I remember thinking back in my 20s how I wished my parents had pushed me to
stay with the Cello.>
I just have never had success making anyone do anything, even before we found
this lifestyle. All of my kids have been incredibly independent, they have
been my best teachers.
< My husband said, "How do they know now, what we have only figured out
recently, the kinds of thing one needs to know so that having the life you want is
easier to live? Don't parents' experiences count for something when raising
their kids. How can someone who is 4 or 7 even understand that their education
belongs to them, aren't we supposed to be here to help them? Is raising kids
just about giving them food, shelter and love, the rest is just up to them.
Wouldn't that feel scary to a kid that it is up to them?" >
Yes, I think parents experience do count, you are going to need it as you go
along. My experience is what tells me that this lifestyle is the right one for
my family because I have also lived the other lifestyle, the school lifestyle
and saw firsthand what an ill fit that was for the whole family. I can't go
back and redo the past but I can learn from it.
I personally don't think it is a 4 and 7yro's responsibility to understand
that their education belongs to them, they will in time as they grow up, my
16yro understands it however not so much in those terms. We only started hsing 5
years ago, so he was around 11 when we pulled him out of school. In those 5
short years we have managed to cross the bridge from a public schooled child to a
self confident young man who understands far more than I had ever dreamt he
would at this age. We did it a day at a time, talking, laughing, fighting,
crying and even a few shouting matches which we have not had for ages I'm glad to
say. We worked through so many things along the way and the whole family has
grown, not just the kids.
When you ask if the kids are scared about the rest being up to them I wonder
if you are thinking that you are just going to shove a 7yro out into the
world, why on earth would anyone do that? There are a lot of years to explore life
safely within the family between the age of 7 and adulthood. I am not even
shoving my 16yro out I am helping him to find ways to test out the larger world
while still knowing my hand is there to grab when he needs it and even at 16
they still need it now and then. He does come to me for guidance, for
reassurance, trusting me to be here and I am.
I do however encourage him to try new things, to stretch and grow, to taste
life so that he can eventually have the confidence he needs to be his own
person. I want him to always want us around and to always love us but I want him to
be self sufficient because I think that is healthy. I love seeing that in my
21yro son, he is so powerful now, school was not kind to him but he has
overcome it and it is exciting to see.
Could it be that it all boils down to trust? We have to trust ourselves first
to do the right thing and then we can trust that our kids will find the way.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rachel_foodie@... writes:
> You know that I love our kids as much as youI think this is a great start, you don't say how long you have been
> do. They are our children. It's makes me sad that you are so
> disappointed in me not just agreeing with you. I can see your point
> and where you are coming from, but I just don't know if I buy the
> whole unschooling thing like you do. How do we raise 'our' children
> being far apart on such an integral issue? I know you love me, and I
> love you, but you seem more disappointed that I don't agree with you,
> and I am not disappointed that you don't agree with me."*******
hsing/unschooling or how old your kids are or if they were formally in school, all of
that makes a difference IMHO. From what you write here I don't hear your DH
saying "no way, not with my kids". He sounds like he is open to the idea but
needs more information and maybe just time. My DH and I had some of the same
problems you are experiencing but we kept on talking and learning and living and
the kids kept coming along and interacting with him so that eventually he was
able to see it too.
I would also like to add that I have seen schools create totally
disinterested kids, I don't know if I would call them lazy, the schools probably would as
might their parents but I saw kids who had just shut down, tuned out so to
speak. There are no guarantees in life.
< That if our kids made a commitment to some kind of activity and wanted to
stop, not because they didn't like it anymore, but because it was becoming
harder or more challenging, that it might be a good thing to expect them to really
give it some thought before totally giving up (not that that would stop them
from giving up anyway).>
My kids start and stop things but I do not so much think it is because it
became too hard. What I do find is that as we travel farther along this path my
kids and myself have become so much more in tune with ourselves that we know
very fast if something we try is a fit or not. I don't make my kids continue
with something they are sure they don't want to do. They have made a decision
though to stick with something like a sports team who they knew counted on them
to be there, but they made the choice I did not force it.
<I remember thinking back in my 20s how I wished my parents had pushed me to
stay with the Cello.>
I just have never had success making anyone do anything, even before we found
this lifestyle. All of my kids have been incredibly independent, they have
been my best teachers.
< My husband said, "How do they know now, what we have only figured out
recently, the kinds of thing one needs to know so that having the life you want is
easier to live? Don't parents' experiences count for something when raising
their kids. How can someone who is 4 or 7 even understand that their education
belongs to them, aren't we supposed to be here to help them? Is raising kids
just about giving them food, shelter and love, the rest is just up to them.
Wouldn't that feel scary to a kid that it is up to them?" >
Yes, I think parents experience do count, you are going to need it as you go
along. My experience is what tells me that this lifestyle is the right one for
my family because I have also lived the other lifestyle, the school lifestyle
and saw firsthand what an ill fit that was for the whole family. I can't go
back and redo the past but I can learn from it.
I personally don't think it is a 4 and 7yro's responsibility to understand
that their education belongs to them, they will in time as they grow up, my
16yro understands it however not so much in those terms. We only started hsing 5
years ago, so he was around 11 when we pulled him out of school. In those 5
short years we have managed to cross the bridge from a public schooled child to a
self confident young man who understands far more than I had ever dreamt he
would at this age. We did it a day at a time, talking, laughing, fighting,
crying and even a few shouting matches which we have not had for ages I'm glad to
say. We worked through so many things along the way and the whole family has
grown, not just the kids.
When you ask if the kids are scared about the rest being up to them I wonder
if you are thinking that you are just going to shove a 7yro out into the
world, why on earth would anyone do that? There are a lot of years to explore life
safely within the family between the age of 7 and adulthood. I am not even
shoving my 16yro out I am helping him to find ways to test out the larger world
while still knowing my hand is there to grab when he needs it and even at 16
they still need it now and then. He does come to me for guidance, for
reassurance, trusting me to be here and I am.
I do however encourage him to try new things, to stretch and grow, to taste
life so that he can eventually have the confidence he needs to be his own
person. I want him to always want us around and to always love us but I want him to
be self sufficient because I think that is healthy. I love seeing that in my
21yro son, he is so powerful now, school was not kind to him but he has
overcome it and it is exciting to see.
Could it be that it all boils down to trust? We have to trust ourselves first
to do the right thing and then we can trust that our kids will find the way.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
<I remember thinking back in my 20s how I wished my parents had pushed me to
stay with the Cello.>
I, and the person that made that comment, now have an instrument we love and a base of familiarity should we ever choose to go back and learn more. Had we been pushed, it might have been ruined for us forever.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stay with the Cello.>
>I used to have this thought about the violin lessons I used to take. But really, I was fantasizing. If I looked back at violin honestly I can see that hated the commitment and practice though I loved the instrument. By letting me quit and not pushing me my parents let me keep that love. If they had pushed I very likely would have grown to resent it NOT become the proffessional violinest I used to imagine I might have been. People like to engage in the good fantasies of 'what might have been' all the while forgetting what really was.
>
I, and the person that made that comment, now have an instrument we love and a base of familiarity should we ever choose to go back and learn more. Had we been pushed, it might have been ruined for us forever.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wife2Vegman
Rachel,
Is your husband willing to read? Is he willing to do
the research necessary? If so, then start handing him
books, like:
The Unschooling Handbook
Homeschooling Our Children Deschooling Ourselves
From Homeschool to College to Work: Turning your
homeschooled experiences into College and Job
Portfolios
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
Is your husband willing to read? Is he willing to do
the research necessary? If so, then start handing him
books, like:
The Unschooling Handbook
Homeschooling Our Children Deschooling Ourselves
From Homeschool to College to Work: Turning your
homeschooled experiences into College and Job
Portfolios
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
Danielle Conger
Laura wrote:
I personally don't think it is a 4 and 7yro's responsibility to understand
that their education belongs to them, they will in time as they grow up, my
16yro understands it however not so much in those terms. We only started hsing 5
years ago, so he was around 11 when we pulled him out of school.
===========================================================
Well, my kids (dd6, dd5 and ds 3.5) have never been to school so they really have no idea that their education could *not* belong to them. I think that's part of why Emily was so incredibly indignant about President Bush's No Child Left Behind.
If children grow up with unschooling, then they never have the baggage to overcome from a formal school experience that might teach them that they couldn't do something they set out to do. I think they would have an incredible advantage just by starting out this young. They will be empowered from the very beginning, able to meet the challenges they set for themselves.
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I personally don't think it is a 4 and 7yro's responsibility to understand
that their education belongs to them, they will in time as they grow up, my
16yro understands it however not so much in those terms. We only started hsing 5
years ago, so he was around 11 when we pulled him out of school.
===========================================================
Well, my kids (dd6, dd5 and ds 3.5) have never been to school so they really have no idea that their education could *not* belong to them. I think that's part of why Emily was so incredibly indignant about President Bush's No Child Left Behind.
If children grow up with unschooling, then they never have the baggage to overcome from a formal school experience that might teach them that they couldn't do something they set out to do. I think they would have an incredible advantage just by starting out this young. They will be empowered from the very beginning, able to meet the challenges they set for themselves.
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 1/21/04 4:14 PM, Rachel Ross at rachel_foodie@... wrote:
potential disaster is that we assume that the people doing it either aren't
nervous about the potential disaster beacuse their either 1) don't care
about their kids as much or 2) because there's something wrong with their
brains that they can't see something that's so obvious.
The fears your husband experesses are perfectly normal. Unschoolers have
worked through the worst of those fears and most have periodic panic
attacks.
The fears can't be logicked away. The fears make sense from a schooled point
of view. What helps is knowledge and
What confident unschoolers have is a greater knowledge of the results of
unschooling, an understanding of the other benefits of unschooling, an
understanding of how and why people learn and the pros and cons of coerced
learning vs learning from interests.
Every choice in life has good aspects and bad. Choosing involves picking
something where the good outweighs the bad.
It's helpful to read about the success stories. But, of course, schools have
success stories too, so the stories aren't a reason to choose unschooling. I
think rather than reading them as stories that unschooling does work,
they're better read as stories of *how* learning through interests works.
It's not significant that Sandra's Kirby has been working at the game shop
for several years and been given a lot of responsibility at only 16. What's
significant in terms of unschooling is that it grew out of his passion in
playing games being supported and taken seriously.
It's also helpful to realize the goals of unschooling are different than
other ways of schooling and homeschooling. The goal is helping the child be
who he is right now and help him grow into who he will become. The goal of
schooling is to get a child to some specific place that it's assumed
That goal can be hard to embrace. For one thing it makes it seem like
unschoolers don't care where kids end up. But what it is is trust in the
process that interests are the best foundation for life's pursuits. being
able to pursue what we enjoy is what makes us jump out of bed in the
morning. It's what makes us willing to put up with things we don't like
because we know we'll get to do something we really, really like.
And trust in the kids themselves that they are whole people who want to *do*
things in life, not just have life happen to them. (Even -- maybe espcially
-- when what they may be doing looks like that's all they care about! That's
when we need to look further and find out what's really going on rather than
what it looks like on the surface that's going on.) And trust in biology
that we're wired to leave home and go out on our own. Biology is what drives
male lions away from the pride they were born in even though it would be
easier for them to stay.)
It's helpful to think about why schooling works and why it doesn't work.
School *does* turn out decent kids who go on to get jobs and not be burdens
on society. People may want it to do more or something else, but that's
bascially what it was designed for.
But sometimes school fails. Sometimes it works okay.
If coerced learning works sometimes and fails others, then it isn't the
coerced learning that's working. There are other factors that allow coerced
learning to work. And, unfortunately, those factors aren't controllable. It
has to do with personality, home environment, school environment, learning
style and so on and so on. If someone has the right combination of factors
-- they have a learning style that matches school, they have interests that
match what's being taught, they have a personality that can conform to being
told what to learn and how to go about learning it -- then coerced learning
will "work" (that is have the results school is designed to have.)
The beauty of unschooling is that it is independent of many of the factors
coerced learning depends on. Unschooling adapts to the child and his needs,
rather than the child having to adapt to the needs of school and the needs
of the agenda the adults have for him.
The only thing unschoolind depends on is how well a parent can respect a
child's interests (not just the interests that look like they're leading the
future or look like something they'd do in school) and strew and nurture and
support and model. (And that's part of what the list is for :-)
There's lots more to say on that, but it's a beginning anyway!
might be a good keyword.
It's helpful to talk with a child about why they want to quit because it
might be something that can be fixed that the child does't realize can be
fixed.
Joyce
> "Has anyone ever unschooled their kids and because theirPart of the problem of seeing something new that seems to be open to
> kids were lazy, or totally disinterested in things they might need to
> know to make an actual living, or unschooling failed those kids?" Is
> it really wrong to have any expectations of one's kids.
potential disaster is that we assume that the people doing it either aren't
nervous about the potential disaster beacuse their either 1) don't care
about their kids as much or 2) because there's something wrong with their
brains that they can't see something that's so obvious.
The fears your husband experesses are perfectly normal. Unschoolers have
worked through the worst of those fears and most have periodic panic
attacks.
The fears can't be logicked away. The fears make sense from a schooled point
of view. What helps is knowledge and
What confident unschoolers have is a greater knowledge of the results of
unschooling, an understanding of the other benefits of unschooling, an
understanding of how and why people learn and the pros and cons of coerced
learning vs learning from interests.
Every choice in life has good aspects and bad. Choosing involves picking
something where the good outweighs the bad.
It's helpful to read about the success stories. But, of course, schools have
success stories too, so the stories aren't a reason to choose unschooling. I
think rather than reading them as stories that unschooling does work,
they're better read as stories of *how* learning through interests works.
It's not significant that Sandra's Kirby has been working at the game shop
for several years and been given a lot of responsibility at only 16. What's
significant in terms of unschooling is that it grew out of his passion in
playing games being supported and taken seriously.
It's also helpful to realize the goals of unschooling are different than
other ways of schooling and homeschooling. The goal is helping the child be
who he is right now and help him grow into who he will become. The goal of
schooling is to get a child to some specific place that it's assumed
That goal can be hard to embrace. For one thing it makes it seem like
unschoolers don't care where kids end up. But what it is is trust in the
process that interests are the best foundation for life's pursuits. being
able to pursue what we enjoy is what makes us jump out of bed in the
morning. It's what makes us willing to put up with things we don't like
because we know we'll get to do something we really, really like.
And trust in the kids themselves that they are whole people who want to *do*
things in life, not just have life happen to them. (Even -- maybe espcially
-- when what they may be doing looks like that's all they care about! That's
when we need to look further and find out what's really going on rather than
what it looks like on the surface that's going on.) And trust in biology
that we're wired to leave home and go out on our own. Biology is what drives
male lions away from the pride they were born in even though it would be
easier for them to stay.)
It's helpful to think about why schooling works and why it doesn't work.
School *does* turn out decent kids who go on to get jobs and not be burdens
on society. People may want it to do more or something else, but that's
bascially what it was designed for.
But sometimes school fails. Sometimes it works okay.
If coerced learning works sometimes and fails others, then it isn't the
coerced learning that's working. There are other factors that allow coerced
learning to work. And, unfortunately, those factors aren't controllable. It
has to do with personality, home environment, school environment, learning
style and so on and so on. If someone has the right combination of factors
-- they have a learning style that matches school, they have interests that
match what's being taught, they have a personality that can conform to being
told what to learn and how to go about learning it -- then coerced learning
will "work" (that is have the results school is designed to have.)
The beauty of unschooling is that it is independent of many of the factors
coerced learning depends on. Unschooling adapts to the child and his needs,
rather than the child having to adapt to the needs of school and the needs
of the agenda the adults have for him.
The only thing unschoolind depends on is how well a parent can respect a
child's interests (not just the interests that look like they're leading the
future or look like something they'd do in school) and strew and nurture and
support and model. (And that's part of what the list is for :-)
There's lots more to say on that, but it's a beginning anyway!
> That if our kids made a commitment to some kind of activity and wanted toThe subject of what to do about "commitments" has come up *lots*! Commitment
> stop, not because they didn't like it anymore, but because it was becoming
> harder or more challenging, that it might be a good thing to expect them to
> really give it some thought before totally giving up (not that that would stop
> them from giving up anyway).
might be a good keyword.
It's helpful to talk with a child about why they want to quit because it
might be something that can be fixed that the child does't realize can be
fixed.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/22/2004 7:13:25 AM Central Standard Time,
danielle.conger@... writes:
the POV of having kids who had been in school. It took mine a few years to
feel like they owned their education, for so many years they had been told what
to think and do.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
danielle.conger@... writes:
> Well, my kids (dd6, dd5 and ds 3.5) have never been to school so theyI may have taken the statement a little to literally and I was thinking from
> really have no idea that their education could *not* belong to them. I think
> that's part of why Emily was so incredibly indignant about President Bush's No
> Child Left Behind.
>
the POV of having kids who had been in school. It took mine a few years to
feel like they owned their education, for so many years they had been told what
to think and do.
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyle W.
Joyce wrote:
~~School *does* turn out decent kids who go on to get jobs and not be burdens
on society.~~
That's true, but isn't it funny how easily some people can ignore the number of "failures" that school turns out, but won't hesitate to question a different way of learning? I still think that a lot of success stories coming from school achieved what they did in spite of school, not because of it.
Lyle
***Always remember, Lead By Example***
--
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
~~School *does* turn out decent kids who go on to get jobs and not be burdens
on society.~~
That's true, but isn't it funny how easily some people can ignore the number of "failures" that school turns out, but won't hesitate to question a different way of learning? I still think that a lot of success stories coming from school achieved what they did in spite of school, not because of it.
Lyle
***Always remember, Lead By Example***
--
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/21/04 7:57:26 PM, rachel_foodie@... writes:
<< Isn't there a list out there called
Unschooling Disaster Stories?" Not everything works for everybody." >>
Nobody claimed anything would work for everybody.
Any family that believes school is the way for their kids to be guaranteed a
good future would be irresponsible not to keep their families in school.
I have no personal interest in getting more or lots of people to unschool.
My interest is in helping those who already want to do it do it well and
confidently.
-=- I remember thinking back in my 20s how I wished my parents had pushed me
to stay with the Cello. (I give up on alot of stuff of my own admittance)
because I might be a great player. But upon thinking about it, I realized that
"might" be a great cellist,isn't a good enough reason for my parents pushing
me. Clearly, I had other things on my mind. -=-
What is being a great cellist good for, though? If you had loved cello and
it had come easily and you woke up thinking "cello" you'd probably still be
doing it. And do you play now?
-=-Don't parents' experiences count for something when raising their kids.
How can someone who is 4 or 7 even understand that their education belongs to
them, aren't we supposed to be here to help them? Is raising kids just about
giving them food, shelter and love, the rest is just up to them. -=-
This seems foreign to me personally. I have never once agreed with people
who said "their education belongs to them." I don't even like the word
"education," because it, like teaching, is something imposed from the outside. I
don't think a person's learning belongs to him either, in the sense that they
should figure out on their own what they want. I don't like it when parents say
"When he tells me what he wants to learn, I help him learn it."
None of those things came from me. I've seen them too, but I don't like them
much.
My kids' learning comes from where my learning comes from. Something is
happening and anyone there throws out whatever comments or knowledge or jokes or
questions he has, and together we examine or admire or analyze or play with or
somehow note, and then each of us processes some of that information, probably
forgets some of it, ties it in with whatever each of us knows or cares about
(all that's internal brain-stuff, memory and thought), and the next time
there's something to connect to it, we all connect some more thoughts, maybe just
internally, maybe with a reference back to the other thing, maybe by physically
holding those two things together, or saying "Just like that other one," or
whatever it is.
We've rented A Knight's Tale. That will be a Chaucer tie-in for life, for
me who's read a fair amount of Chaucer, and for my kids who've read none, but
I've read parts of The Miller's Tale to them (the "Alysoun anon let flee a
fart" passage) and told them some more. It doesn't matter to me whether they
pursue Chaucer or not. They now have a hook to hang it on.
There are similarities between A Knight's Tale and The Mighty Ducks, most
obvious being "We Will Rock You" by Queen, but there are others. Holly and I
just watched Labyrinth; A Knight's Tale has a David Bowie song too. I have a
letter from David Bowie, from 1967. Connect the dots.
<<Wouldn't that feel scary to a kid that it is up to them?>>
I think so, but it's not happened in our house. When I hear people tell
their children, young or teens "It's up to you" I cringe.
<<My husband is a thoughtful,caring, very intelligent guy. He can keep his
calm and I am the passionate zealot. BUT, I was really calm and chilled out
during this talk ( a good thing). >>
Sounded like it! I was impressed at the comments, but disappointed in the
descriptions of unschooling. Too cold and lacking the business of a rich life.
<<Please don't write my husband off as some ignorant, intolerant, control
freak. That isn't what this is about. It is about a true curiosity and genuine
concern for his kids' futures.>>
Hey, I've seen ignorant control freaks, and your husband by your account
doesn't seem at all like either.
Sandra
<< Isn't there a list out there called
Unschooling Disaster Stories?" Not everything works for everybody." >>
Nobody claimed anything would work for everybody.
Any family that believes school is the way for their kids to be guaranteed a
good future would be irresponsible not to keep their families in school.
I have no personal interest in getting more or lots of people to unschool.
My interest is in helping those who already want to do it do it well and
confidently.
-=- I remember thinking back in my 20s how I wished my parents had pushed me
to stay with the Cello. (I give up on alot of stuff of my own admittance)
because I might be a great player. But upon thinking about it, I realized that
"might" be a great cellist,isn't a good enough reason for my parents pushing
me. Clearly, I had other things on my mind. -=-
What is being a great cellist good for, though? If you had loved cello and
it had come easily and you woke up thinking "cello" you'd probably still be
doing it. And do you play now?
-=-Don't parents' experiences count for something when raising their kids.
How can someone who is 4 or 7 even understand that their education belongs to
them, aren't we supposed to be here to help them? Is raising kids just about
giving them food, shelter and love, the rest is just up to them. -=-
This seems foreign to me personally. I have never once agreed with people
who said "their education belongs to them." I don't even like the word
"education," because it, like teaching, is something imposed from the outside. I
don't think a person's learning belongs to him either, in the sense that they
should figure out on their own what they want. I don't like it when parents say
"When he tells me what he wants to learn, I help him learn it."
None of those things came from me. I've seen them too, but I don't like them
much.
My kids' learning comes from where my learning comes from. Something is
happening and anyone there throws out whatever comments or knowledge or jokes or
questions he has, and together we examine or admire or analyze or play with or
somehow note, and then each of us processes some of that information, probably
forgets some of it, ties it in with whatever each of us knows or cares about
(all that's internal brain-stuff, memory and thought), and the next time
there's something to connect to it, we all connect some more thoughts, maybe just
internally, maybe with a reference back to the other thing, maybe by physically
holding those two things together, or saying "Just like that other one," or
whatever it is.
We've rented A Knight's Tale. That will be a Chaucer tie-in for life, for
me who's read a fair amount of Chaucer, and for my kids who've read none, but
I've read parts of The Miller's Tale to them (the "Alysoun anon let flee a
fart" passage) and told them some more. It doesn't matter to me whether they
pursue Chaucer or not. They now have a hook to hang it on.
There are similarities between A Knight's Tale and The Mighty Ducks, most
obvious being "We Will Rock You" by Queen, but there are others. Holly and I
just watched Labyrinth; A Knight's Tale has a David Bowie song too. I have a
letter from David Bowie, from 1967. Connect the dots.
<<Wouldn't that feel scary to a kid that it is up to them?>>
I think so, but it's not happened in our house. When I hear people tell
their children, young or teens "It's up to you" I cringe.
<<My husband is a thoughtful,caring, very intelligent guy. He can keep his
calm and I am the passionate zealot. BUT, I was really calm and chilled out
during this talk ( a good thing). >>
Sounded like it! I was impressed at the comments, but disappointed in the
descriptions of unschooling. Too cold and lacking the business of a rich life.
<<Please don't write my husband off as some ignorant, intolerant, control
freak. That isn't what this is about. It is about a true curiosity and genuine
concern for his kids' futures.>>
Hey, I've seen ignorant control freaks, and your husband by your account
doesn't seem at all like either.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/21/04 9:04:18 PM, listdiva@... writes:
<< 8. Semantics
it has been discussed many times in this here list the importance of
semantics. that there is a difference between saying "kids learn" vs.
"kids teach themselves" or the difference between "learning" and
"education". >>
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
(halfway down)
-=-9. Strewing
what i mean :)-=-
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
Sandra
<< 8. Semantics
it has been discussed many times in this here list the importance of
semantics. that there is a difference between saying "kids learn" vs.
"kids teach themselves" or the difference between "learning" and
"education". >>
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
(halfway down)
-=-9. Strewing
> Is raising kids just about giving them food, shelter and love, thesearch the archives using the aforementioned keyword and you'll read
> rest is just up to them.
what i mean :)-=-
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/22/04 2:11:18 AM, rachel_foodie@... writes:
<< Nah, I don't think that was were he was going, meaning being free, I
think he was talking about feel like those big people that brought
them into the world weren't going to leave them alone to figure it
out. >>
How could they possibly think that?
Maybe it would help your husband for him to take them out and about. Maybe
an overnight trip to a city with museums and historical sites. He could go
touristing, even if it's only a couple of hundred miles away. They could get a
motel room, or could camp. And just being with them as they see and talk and
learn might turn the mental tide for him.
Sandra
<< Nah, I don't think that was were he was going, meaning being free, I
think he was talking about feel like those big people that brought
them into the world weren't going to leave them alone to figure it
out. >>
How could they possibly think that?
Maybe it would help your husband for him to take them out and about. Maybe
an overnight trip to a city with museums and historical sites. He could go
touristing, even if it's only a couple of hundred miles away. They could get a
motel room, or could camp. And just being with them as they see and talk and
learn might turn the mental tide for him.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/22/04 2:11:18 AM, rachel_foodie@... writes:
<< However, since I really prefer
unschooling my kids, that also extends to my hunny. If he doesn't
want to learn more about unschooling, there is not a whole lot I can
do. >>
He doesn't have his whole life to learn about it if he wants to.
If he's thinking school or schoolwork is the answer, or if you're thinking of
risking the peace of your marriage to unschool without his approval or
cooperation, that's not balanced.
Your duty to provide your children a safe place could easily extend to
running off crazy people from the front door, and helping your husband see NOW
what's happening, not later when they're grown.
Some things need to be done when they need to be done. Kirby really DOES
need to put gasoline in the van sometimes. Waiting to run out and having to be
rescued isn't unschooling, it's the dangerous inconveniencing of himself and
others. If Keith decided he didn't want to change the oil in any of our
vehicles (well if he decided that, I would do it) and would just see whether it's
true that the engine will blow, that could, I suppose, be considered
unschooling, but it's also massively stupid and irresponsible.
If we decided to see what would really happen if we didn't make phone
payments, or power payments or mortgage payments, yes the kids would learn something
but what they would learn was that we had left them in a cold house that was
about to be repossessed. (At least the creditors couldn't call, once the phone
was gone.)
We need to model what needs to be done, and if unschooling is really going to
blossom, it needs everyone involved to understand it well enough to help it
out, or at least not to thwart its progress.
Sandra
<< However, since I really prefer
unschooling my kids, that also extends to my hunny. If he doesn't
want to learn more about unschooling, there is not a whole lot I can
do. >>
He doesn't have his whole life to learn about it if he wants to.
If he's thinking school or schoolwork is the answer, or if you're thinking of
risking the peace of your marriage to unschool without his approval or
cooperation, that's not balanced.
Your duty to provide your children a safe place could easily extend to
running off crazy people from the front door, and helping your husband see NOW
what's happening, not later when they're grown.
Some things need to be done when they need to be done. Kirby really DOES
need to put gasoline in the van sometimes. Waiting to run out and having to be
rescued isn't unschooling, it's the dangerous inconveniencing of himself and
others. If Keith decided he didn't want to change the oil in any of our
vehicles (well if he decided that, I would do it) and would just see whether it's
true that the engine will blow, that could, I suppose, be considered
unschooling, but it's also massively stupid and irresponsible.
If we decided to see what would really happen if we didn't make phone
payments, or power payments or mortgage payments, yes the kids would learn something
but what they would learn was that we had left them in a cold house that was
about to be repossessed. (At least the creditors couldn't call, once the phone
was gone.)
We need to model what needs to be done, and if unschooling is really going to
blossom, it needs everyone involved to understand it well enough to help it
out, or at least not to thwart its progress.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/22/04 6:23:33 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< The fears can't be logicked away. The fears make sense from a schooled
point
of view. What helps is knowledge and
I can't breathe until I know.
Guessing: experience? breathing? (I can't breathe!!!)
Sandra
<< The fears can't be logicked away. The fears make sense from a schooled
point
of view. What helps is knowledge and
>>And??
I can't breathe until I know.
Guessing: experience? breathing? (I can't breathe!!!)
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/22/04 6:23:33 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< t's not significant that Sandra's Kirby has been working at the game shop
for several years and been given a lot of responsibility at only 16. What's
significant in terms of unschooling is that it grew out of his passion in
playing games being supported and taken seriously.
It's not "This can happen to you too!" If someone else tried to help a kid
get a job at a gaming store that would be missing the point (and I didn't help
him get that job, except by saying "Sure" and showing them how some of the
state regs didn't apply to a homeschooled kid).
Here's my best summary of that, "Moving a Puddle":
http://www.unschooling.com/library/essays/essay01.shtml
<<The goal of
schooling is to get a child to some specific place that it's assumed>>
It cut off again. Wah.
<<It's helpful to think about why schooling works and why it doesn't work.
School *does* turn out decent kids who go on to get jobs and not be burdens
on society.>>
Yeah, but there could be school-failure websites. Except most of us could
start talking about school failures and not stop until we were too hungry to
continue.
Sandra
<< t's not significant that Sandra's Kirby has been working at the game shop
for several years and been given a lot of responsibility at only 16. What's
significant in terms of unschooling is that it grew out of his passion in
playing games being supported and taken seriously.
>>Right.
It's not "This can happen to you too!" If someone else tried to help a kid
get a job at a gaming store that would be missing the point (and I didn't help
him get that job, except by saying "Sure" and showing them how some of the
state regs didn't apply to a homeschooled kid).
Here's my best summary of that, "Moving a Puddle":
http://www.unschooling.com/library/essays/essay01.shtml
<<The goal of
schooling is to get a child to some specific place that it's assumed>>
It cut off again. Wah.
<<It's helpful to think about why schooling works and why it doesn't work.
School *does* turn out decent kids who go on to get jobs and not be burdens
on society.>>
Yeah, but there could be school-failure websites. Except most of us could
start talking about school failures and not stop until we were too hungry to
continue.
Sandra
rachel_foodie
>I think this is a great start, you don't say how long you have beenin school, all of
> hsing/unschooling or how old your kids are or if they were formally
> that makes a difference IMHO.We have 3 kids, at present (I was kinda hopin' for just one more
someday...I'm addicted). Andrew 14. Andrew went to school for all of
kindergarten and 6 weeks of 1st grade. He LOVED kindegarten (I did
not want him to go, I had been reading Nancy Wallace, GWS, John Holt,
a book called Deschooling our Lives, starting around the time Andrew
was 3. Anyway, he hated 1st grade and I just told my husband that he
got to have Andrew in school for Kindergarten and now it was my turn
to have him home.
We used Calvert for 3 months until I thought we would blow our heads
off! Then we pretty much unschooled from then til 6th grade, with
occaisional what I like to call "unschoolers academic panic attacks"
which lasted maybe a week and then we off doing our own thing.
Then when Andrew was in 6th grade my husband was not happy about
unschooling and wanted a curriculum. So we did Oak Meadow and have
been doing that since this past December '03. We did it in a very
relaxed way. I didn't check it, let Andrew decide what he was going
to do and when. But my dh still checked up on him and put a little
pressure on him here and there. It pissed me off, and I am not the
silent type.:-) Andrew is an amazingly compliant kid. I wish he
would fight more for what he wanted or be a pain in the butt so my dh
we see there was no other way but to unschool.
Now, Andrew is unschooling totally, however, he is thinking he wants
to try high school and I talked with him and told him that there are
only 2 things he'd really have to know how to do, which he doesn't
now, and that would be to write an essay and to have decent grasp of
pre-algebra (as I have found out about what the school requires..we
live in the northern suburbs of Atlanta, GA approx 35 minutes from
the city). So he told me he would like me to help him to be able to
do that stuff. (Personally, I am desperately hoping he changes his
mind...ugh!...I hate school and I was good at it, but I just can't
stand it)
Okay, Ben is 7. He has mild autistic spectrum disorder. I was the
one who wrote the desperate email "Please somebody H-E-L-P"
recently. I got so many tremendous responses that really helped me
get to my center. Things I know are true. Like how great Ben is and
not to look at the problems he has (and they are legit) but to look
at what wonderful things there are about him and what a loving kid he
is. He is better off at home. Ben had 5 weeks of special ed public
school. It was a bloody nightmare! Since that time he has had a
totally school-phobic reaction to even the word school. SO how could
I put him back there? Prior to school he had been unschooled. Since
then he has been unschooled. We have helped him learn to count to 15
(which took almost 2 years) and learn most of the alphabet things he
wanted but which do not come easy for him. Not in a schooly way, just
in the context of life way.
Autumn, God Bless her, has always been unschooled. She will be 4 in
Feb. She asks to go to school sometimes and I took her to a nursery
school to see what it was like and she wanted to stay. :-) She is
super social and just wants to play with all the kids. She has a good
friend, Daniel, who is 5 and goes to prek (PreK is free in GA as it
is paid for by the lottery). He has fun and talks about it. She
wants to go. She could go in the fall but I don't know. I would miss
her too much. If you opt for the free PreK the kids have to be there
all day like Kindergarten. Isn't that insane? Hopefully, she'll
forget about it. I could pay to let her go just part time though, but
frankly I have better things to do with my money.
I want to comment that my husband and I were talking recently on what
a fabulous, loving, funny, compassionate, respectful,gentle, positive
young man Andrew has turned into. I love all of my kids,so it's not
that I love Andrew more, it's that he is the only one that is now
taller than me and is moving into adulthood. We are starting to see
the kind of man he is becoming. :-) So, my dh and I were commenting
on how Andrew is just a wonderful human being. Everyone in our
homeschool group as pulled me aside to tell me they just adore him.
He already is what we could ever hope to have in a child so how on
earth could public school (or schooling at home) ever improve on that?
Thanks for everybody's input. I am forwarding all of your responses
on to my hubby for his edification.:-)
Rachel
Wife2Vegman
Ok, like the people in the Emporer's New Clothes, I
didn't want to admit I had no idea what you were
talking about when you said there was an arrow on the
Fed Ex truck.
But after a month or two of studying every single Fed
ex truck that passed by, *today* I saw the arrow!
Now I can't stop seeing the arrow. It is so obvious.
Thanks, Lyle!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
didn't want to admit I had no idea what you were
talking about when you said there was an arrow on the
Fed Ex truck.
But after a month or two of studying every single Fed
ex truck that passed by, *today* I saw the arrow!
Now I can't stop seeing the arrow. It is so obvious.
Thanks, Lyle!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
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Lyle W.
Ummmm....I'm not positive, but I don't think I was the one that brought up the FedEx arrow. I'll just pass along the thanks to whomever is willing to accept it!
:)
Lyle
:)
Lyle
----- Original Message -----
From: Wife2Vegman <wifetovegman2002@...>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:53:07 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Hey, Lyle! I did it!
>
> Ok, like the people in the Emporer's New Clothes, I
> didn't want to admit I had no idea what you were
> talking about when you said there was an arrow on the
> Fed Ex truck.
>
> But after a month or two of studying every single Fed
> ex truck that passed by, *today* I saw the arrow!
>
> Now I can't stop seeing the arrow. It is so obvious.
>
>
> Thanks, Lyle!
>
>
>
> =====
> --Susan in VA
> WifetoVegman
>
> What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
***Always remember, Lead By Example***
--
___________________________________________________________
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melissa4123
--- In [email protected], Wife2Vegman
<wifetovegman2002@y...> wrote:
<<Ok, like the people in the Emporer's New Clothes, I didn't want to
admit I had no idea what you were talking about when you said there
was an arrow on the Fed Ex truck.
But after a month or two of studying every single Fed ex truck that
passed by, *today* I saw the arrow!
Now I can't stop seeing the arrow. It is so obvious. >>
I watched that 60 minutes (I think?) show because of what someone
said on this list. After watching that segement, I was shocked that
I had never noticed it before!
If you watched it, you'll remember that he said that toddlers almost
always find the arrow before adults? Something to do with learing
language and losing our ability to "really see" things. So...as a
small experiment, I pulled up the Fed Ex website and asked my DD
where the arrow was......she pointed right to it and said "there it
is" and ran off to play. <BG>
When I told my DH about it the next day, he had no idea where it was
until our 2.5 year old showed him!
Melissa
<wifetovegman2002@y...> wrote:
<<Ok, like the people in the Emporer's New Clothes, I didn't want to
admit I had no idea what you were talking about when you said there
was an arrow on the Fed Ex truck.
But after a month or two of studying every single Fed ex truck that
passed by, *today* I saw the arrow!
Now I can't stop seeing the arrow. It is so obvious. >>
I watched that 60 minutes (I think?) show because of what someone
said on this list. After watching that segement, I was shocked that
I had never noticed it before!
If you watched it, you'll remember that he said that toddlers almost
always find the arrow before adults? Something to do with learing
language and losing our ability to "really see" things. So...as a
small experiment, I pulled up the Fed Ex website and asked my DD
where the arrow was......she pointed right to it and said "there it
is" and ran off to play. <BG>
When I told my DH about it the next day, he had no idea where it was
until our 2.5 year old showed him!
Melissa
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/21/2004 9:57:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rachel_foodie@... writes:
<<Is
it really wrong to have any expectations of one's kids. And I am not
talking about making a living one person wants to live on. What if
our kids want to get married and have kids, and wants them to be
homeschooled/unschooled and they can't make the money to that.>>
I think one thing your husband might not realize is how quickly somebody can
learn something if they really want to. If one of my children wants a certain
job or wants a job with a certain amount of income, I have confidence that
they could learn what they need to get it.
<<I did tell him that once I read on a local homeschooling list about a mom
who's unschooled son really wanted to go to a certain college, or
get into a certain collegiate program (??), and couldn't get in because his
math abilities were atrocious.>>
If somebody really wants to get into a certain program at a certain college,
it may be necessary for them to plan a bit in advance and study some things
that may be required for admission or placement exams. I really don't think
that needs to take very long. They certainly wouldn't need to start at 4 or 7!
I also think that kids who are heading in that direction would probably be
interested in these types of things well before they were heading to college. If
the college requires a lot of stuff that really isn't necessary for their
chosen career and that they aren't interested in, I would recommend that they
look into other colleges or other method career preparation.
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rachel_foodie@... writes:
<<Is
it really wrong to have any expectations of one's kids. And I am not
talking about making a living one person wants to live on. What if
our kids want to get married and have kids, and wants them to be
homeschooled/unschooled and they can't make the money to that.>>
I think one thing your husband might not realize is how quickly somebody can
learn something if they really want to. If one of my children wants a certain
job or wants a job with a certain amount of income, I have confidence that
they could learn what they need to get it.
<<I did tell him that once I read on a local homeschooling list about a mom
who's unschooled son really wanted to go to a certain college, or
get into a certain collegiate program (??), and couldn't get in because his
math abilities were atrocious.>>
If somebody really wants to get into a certain program at a certain college,
it may be necessary for them to plan a bit in advance and study some things
that may be required for admission or placement exams. I really don't think
that needs to take very long. They certainly wouldn't need to start at 4 or 7!
I also think that kids who are heading in that direction would probably be
interested in these types of things well before they were heading to college. If
the college requires a lot of stuff that really isn't necessary for their
chosen career and that they aren't interested in, I would recommend that they
look into other colleges or other method career preparation.
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wife2Vegman
> In a message dated 1/21/04 7:57:26 PM,Have you ever met a child who had no hope for his own
> rachel_foodie@... writes:
>
> << Isn't there a list out there called
> Unschooling Disaster Stories?" Not everything works
> for everybody." >>
future? He was probably abused, beaten, neglected,
and ignored. That is not an unschooled child. An
unschooled child is given MORE attention, MORE
freedom, MORE opportunities than those shut in a
concrete building with poor ventilation and little
sunlight every day. There are no boundaries to the
list of opportunities and adventures and experiences
an unschooled child can have.
>John Holt learned to play the cello at age 50. If you
> -=- I remember thinking back in my 20s how I wished
> my parents had pushed me
> to stay with the Cello. (I give up on alot of stuff
> of my own admittance)
> because I might be a great player. But upon thinking
> about it, I realized that
> "might" be a great cellist,isn't a good enough
> reason for my parents pushing
> me. Clearly, I had other things on my mind. -=-
want to learn it now, you can. There wasn't a time
limit set on when you could learn.
>But unschooling parents don't sit and do nothing. We
> -=-Don't parents' experiences count for something
> when raising their kids.
> How can someone who is 4 or 7 even understand that
> their education belongs to
> them, aren't we supposed to be here to help them? Is
> raising kids just about
> giving them food, shelter and love, the rest is just
> up to them. -=-
are engaging our kids so much more, and on such a
deeper level than parents who rely upon curriculum.
No one is saying you only provide food, shelter, and
clothing. You are watching tv with them, playing with
them, working alongside them, discussing their
thoughts and hopes and dreams and how to help them
achieve them.
Rachel, just a question, please don't be offended, but
does your husband have misgivings about how you are
engaging the children, or not engaging them enough?
Does he see learning and growth and happiness
expanding in your children?
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
Wife2Vegman
--- "Lyle W." <unschoolingdad@...> wrote:
Oh well, to whomever it was that mentioned seeing the
FedEx arrow, thanks!
Man, it took a long time. I have never been great at
optical illusions, but really wanted to find it, to
know that I could conciously look at something in a
new way.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
> Ummmm....I'm not positive, but I don't think I wasOOPS! I thought it was you. Sorry!
> the one that brought up the FedEx arrow. I'll just
> pass along the thanks to whomever is willing to
> accept it!
>
> :)
>
> Lyle
Oh well, to whomever it was that mentioned seeing the
FedEx arrow, thanks!
Man, it took a long time. I have never been great at
optical illusions, but really wanted to find it, to
know that I could conciously look at something in a
new way.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
eaglefalconlark
Dear Rachel,
Your husband *does* sound very caring and thoughtful. Of course, as
an unschooler, I still have to disagree with him. ;)
There are millions of people who are struggling to make a living
because school disabled them so badly. Not only did it fail to give
them adequate information for surviving in the real world, but it
fostered a deep aversion to learning and trampled their self esteem.
Then there are the millions of people who somehow managed to get
through school to the point where they *are* making a good living,
but they are depressed because they are assemblyline products of a
factory system. A life that is forced to be focused on jumping
through a series of hoops (that do not themselves offer anything of
value) simply so that one will be allowed to move on farther down
the assembly line and finally make enough money to impress the
neighbors, is not necessarily a life that guarantees happiness. In
fact, it is almost certain to *not* confer happiness. The American
Dream is for most people a big fat lie. Superficially, they might
achieve it, but inside they are in bad shape. The incredible number
of people with pyschological disorders and depression in this
country (regardless of income level) must attest to that, don't you
think?
I want to tell you about my friend Jacques. When he was a kid, his
mother and father bought a piece of woodland property. His mother
still lives there, and Jacques has now built his own house there. He
built it himself over a period of years; every time he had a little
extra money, he did a little more. The house is unbelievably cozy
and pleasant to be in. Jacques is not rich. He doesn't even work
regularly, only doing carpentry odd jobs here and there. His need
for income is not high, though, as he lives simply. Every time I see
this man he has a smile on his face. He is calm and serene, and
carries an air of general satisfaction about him. People are drawn
to him because he gives off the glow of a life well lived. Every
night he and his girlfriend fix a fire in their wood stove and make
a simple, healthy meal. They read, or play musical instruments (they
both are quite good, but then, they have had enough time, given
their lifestyle, to play enough to become good.) It is very easy to
see children come into this scenario. They are not poor. They are
not suffering. Children do not need much aside from good nutrition,
love (which, because of their chosen lifestyle, their parents would
have a lot of time to give,) and opportunities to explore and enrich
their lives, which I can see being provided by the nearby town
library, theatre, art center, etc, and the many friends their
parents have. The point being that there are ways to create a life
that will support a family and a sense of well-being, which are not
dependant on having a nine-to-five job, a career, a degree, etc.
I do have expectations of my own children, in a sense, though I
think the more accurate word is "hopes", since "expectation" implies
that they owe me something. I hope they will live their lives with
integrity and self-confidence, and that they will do things because
they are valuable to them, not just because someone else has told
them they "should". I assume this will make them happy, which is
also what I hope for them. To be happy. And I don't know anyone who
is happy being policed.
You touched on this already, with your example of your cello
playing. When I was in fifth grade I reached a point in my piano
instruction where I just didn't enjoy pushing myself to learn harder
pieces. I hated practicing. When my piano teacher (who was probably
uncomfortable about taking my parents' money when I wasn't
progressing) had a talk with my mom about it, I felt very bad. Like
I was letting her down, like I was wasting her money. And in fact, I
could see that my mom was embarrassed by the teacher's
confrontation. But all she said to me after that was, "it's your
choice whether you want to practice or not. It's doesn't matter to
me, I just want you to be happy." I spent the entire next year
happily *not* practicing. In a sense, I "quit", as far as training
and progress goes. And then guess what happened? My desire to be
better came back. But then another year would go by and I would lose
interest in practicing again. This has been my pattern ever since. I
am now a quite accomplished musician, and I believe that I got this
far because I was allowed to do it on my own terms. I often wonder
what would have happened if I'd been forced to practice, "for my own
good"? I'm grateful now that my mom had enough sense to not force it.
But will our kids blame us when they aren't good at something they
would like to be good at? Frankly, I hope my kids aren't that self-
absorbed and lacking in common sense. A friend of mine blames his
parents for him not being a better athlete because when he quit the
baseball team in gradeschool they didn't force him to continue! It's
also his parents' fault that he's not a great musician because they
didn't force him to practice piano. And a myriad of other things. I
find that attitude shocking. To me that's the epitome of laziness,
to expect *others* to be responsible for making something impressive
out of you. But it also just doesn't make logical sense. Because
when someone forces you to do something it takes the joy out of it.
Think about it. Say there is something that right now you have
absolutely no interest in, and the only way you will have anything
to do with it is if somebody forces you to, and you know if they do
that you will begin to dislike learning and maybe even the thing
itself -- but there is also a slight possibility that in the future
you will think, "gee, I would be so happy if I was proficient in
this thing!" Would it be okay with you if someone had the power
right now to force you to learn that thing? And if they don't wield
that power over you, will you hold them responsible in the future
because you don't know how to do this thing? Would you, in other
words, trade loss of freedom and joy for some arbitrary skill? Why
not instead focus on gaining skill in something that does *not*
require depriving you of freedom and joy? Wouldn't that be so much
better?
Your husband argues that children do not have the benefit of
experience to tell them what they need to do to prepare for
fulfilling lives, and that therefore parents, who do have
experience, should prepare them. I agree, but realistically you can
only take that so far. You can advise your children, provide
materials, open up the path to opportunities. But you can't predict
what academic skills will be valuable to your child, if any. I
learned so much math that I could have entered an engineering
program. Guess what, I'm not interested in engineering. But I am
interested in self-sufficiency, in farming and canning and raising
livestock and carpentry and sewing. Oh woe is me, that my parents
didn't teach me any of that. Oh poor, poor me, now I'll have to
learn it from scratch as an adult. How could my parents have done
this to me? And damn, I wasted all that time on math! (And I mean
that last bit seriously.) I know a man, by the way, who was
unschooled and knew nothing but basic arithmetic, who took a basic
math class in college, found out that he liked it and was good at
it, and went on to get a degree in mathematics. True story. And he
is unschooling his kids now.
It's really a matter of attitude. Are you going to take
responsibility for your own life or not? Are you going to live in
the past, or make things happen now? And which approach to life do
you hope for your children to learn from you?
I agree with your husband, though, that parents do have a
responsbility to their children. They have a responsibility to
support them in becoming strong, self-confident and self-determined
people. They have a responsibility to encourage their curiosity and
love of learning rather than squelching it. They have a
responsibility to give them a safe, secure base from which to
explore the world and determine their rightful place in it. They
have a responsibility to show by example that the really valuable
things in life also feel good, and that anything else is death to
the human spirit.
Linda
Your husband *does* sound very caring and thoughtful. Of course, as
an unschooler, I still have to disagree with him. ;)
There are millions of people who are struggling to make a living
because school disabled them so badly. Not only did it fail to give
them adequate information for surviving in the real world, but it
fostered a deep aversion to learning and trampled their self esteem.
Then there are the millions of people who somehow managed to get
through school to the point where they *are* making a good living,
but they are depressed because they are assemblyline products of a
factory system. A life that is forced to be focused on jumping
through a series of hoops (that do not themselves offer anything of
value) simply so that one will be allowed to move on farther down
the assembly line and finally make enough money to impress the
neighbors, is not necessarily a life that guarantees happiness. In
fact, it is almost certain to *not* confer happiness. The American
Dream is for most people a big fat lie. Superficially, they might
achieve it, but inside they are in bad shape. The incredible number
of people with pyschological disorders and depression in this
country (regardless of income level) must attest to that, don't you
think?
I want to tell you about my friend Jacques. When he was a kid, his
mother and father bought a piece of woodland property. His mother
still lives there, and Jacques has now built his own house there. He
built it himself over a period of years; every time he had a little
extra money, he did a little more. The house is unbelievably cozy
and pleasant to be in. Jacques is not rich. He doesn't even work
regularly, only doing carpentry odd jobs here and there. His need
for income is not high, though, as he lives simply. Every time I see
this man he has a smile on his face. He is calm and serene, and
carries an air of general satisfaction about him. People are drawn
to him because he gives off the glow of a life well lived. Every
night he and his girlfriend fix a fire in their wood stove and make
a simple, healthy meal. They read, or play musical instruments (they
both are quite good, but then, they have had enough time, given
their lifestyle, to play enough to become good.) It is very easy to
see children come into this scenario. They are not poor. They are
not suffering. Children do not need much aside from good nutrition,
love (which, because of their chosen lifestyle, their parents would
have a lot of time to give,) and opportunities to explore and enrich
their lives, which I can see being provided by the nearby town
library, theatre, art center, etc, and the many friends their
parents have. The point being that there are ways to create a life
that will support a family and a sense of well-being, which are not
dependant on having a nine-to-five job, a career, a degree, etc.
I do have expectations of my own children, in a sense, though I
think the more accurate word is "hopes", since "expectation" implies
that they owe me something. I hope they will live their lives with
integrity and self-confidence, and that they will do things because
they are valuable to them, not just because someone else has told
them they "should". I assume this will make them happy, which is
also what I hope for them. To be happy. And I don't know anyone who
is happy being policed.
You touched on this already, with your example of your cello
playing. When I was in fifth grade I reached a point in my piano
instruction where I just didn't enjoy pushing myself to learn harder
pieces. I hated practicing. When my piano teacher (who was probably
uncomfortable about taking my parents' money when I wasn't
progressing) had a talk with my mom about it, I felt very bad. Like
I was letting her down, like I was wasting her money. And in fact, I
could see that my mom was embarrassed by the teacher's
confrontation. But all she said to me after that was, "it's your
choice whether you want to practice or not. It's doesn't matter to
me, I just want you to be happy." I spent the entire next year
happily *not* practicing. In a sense, I "quit", as far as training
and progress goes. And then guess what happened? My desire to be
better came back. But then another year would go by and I would lose
interest in practicing again. This has been my pattern ever since. I
am now a quite accomplished musician, and I believe that I got this
far because I was allowed to do it on my own terms. I often wonder
what would have happened if I'd been forced to practice, "for my own
good"? I'm grateful now that my mom had enough sense to not force it.
But will our kids blame us when they aren't good at something they
would like to be good at? Frankly, I hope my kids aren't that self-
absorbed and lacking in common sense. A friend of mine blames his
parents for him not being a better athlete because when he quit the
baseball team in gradeschool they didn't force him to continue! It's
also his parents' fault that he's not a great musician because they
didn't force him to practice piano. And a myriad of other things. I
find that attitude shocking. To me that's the epitome of laziness,
to expect *others* to be responsible for making something impressive
out of you. But it also just doesn't make logical sense. Because
when someone forces you to do something it takes the joy out of it.
Think about it. Say there is something that right now you have
absolutely no interest in, and the only way you will have anything
to do with it is if somebody forces you to, and you know if they do
that you will begin to dislike learning and maybe even the thing
itself -- but there is also a slight possibility that in the future
you will think, "gee, I would be so happy if I was proficient in
this thing!" Would it be okay with you if someone had the power
right now to force you to learn that thing? And if they don't wield
that power over you, will you hold them responsible in the future
because you don't know how to do this thing? Would you, in other
words, trade loss of freedom and joy for some arbitrary skill? Why
not instead focus on gaining skill in something that does *not*
require depriving you of freedom and joy? Wouldn't that be so much
better?
Your husband argues that children do not have the benefit of
experience to tell them what they need to do to prepare for
fulfilling lives, and that therefore parents, who do have
experience, should prepare them. I agree, but realistically you can
only take that so far. You can advise your children, provide
materials, open up the path to opportunities. But you can't predict
what academic skills will be valuable to your child, if any. I
learned so much math that I could have entered an engineering
program. Guess what, I'm not interested in engineering. But I am
interested in self-sufficiency, in farming and canning and raising
livestock and carpentry and sewing. Oh woe is me, that my parents
didn't teach me any of that. Oh poor, poor me, now I'll have to
learn it from scratch as an adult. How could my parents have done
this to me? And damn, I wasted all that time on math! (And I mean
that last bit seriously.) I know a man, by the way, who was
unschooled and knew nothing but basic arithmetic, who took a basic
math class in college, found out that he liked it and was good at
it, and went on to get a degree in mathematics. True story. And he
is unschooling his kids now.
It's really a matter of attitude. Are you going to take
responsibility for your own life or not? Are you going to live in
the past, or make things happen now? And which approach to life do
you hope for your children to learn from you?
I agree with your husband, though, that parents do have a
responsbility to their children. They have a responsibility to
support them in becoming strong, self-confident and self-determined
people. They have a responsibility to encourage their curiosity and
love of learning rather than squelching it. They have a
responsibility to give them a safe, secure base from which to
explore the world and determine their rightful place in it. They
have a responsibility to show by example that the really valuable
things in life also feel good, and that anything else is death to
the human spirit.
Linda
rachel_foodie
> Rachel, just a question, please don't be offended, butSusan,
> does your husband have misgivings about how you are
> engaging the children, or not engaging them enough?
> Does he see learning and growth and happiness
> expanding in your children?
>
Yes, Robert sees our kids learning and growing and that they are
happy. Andrew is currently typing a screenplay spoof on the movie
The Ring (I know Scary movie, which we didn't see did a spoof on The
Ring, the Matrix, and Signs) but his is just the ring. He has been at
the pc for days. Last night he was on til nearly 2am. I ribbed
Robert a little when I said, "Uh Oh Hunny, Andrew is UNSHOOLING!!
Aaaahhh!" Ben and Autumn and I have been doing alot of drawing with
chalk outside and blowing bubbles. We had an awesome day playing at
the park on tuesday where I got to meet more of the unschoolers in
our group. Their kids are all younger, more Autumn's age, so she had
a blast! Ben, for all his academic difficulties is a very articulate
kid with a great vocabulary. He is the master gamer and that's fine
with me. Robert is amazed by his ability with pcs and nintendo.
Robert is also continually amazed by Autumns capacity to learn
anything
and how quickly she does it. He KNOWS his kids learn just fine. He is
just a scaredy cat...and admits it. Alot of his issues with this are
fear based. He has a hard time trusting. And Hey, I am sure that
comes
from his schooled experience and growing up with a military dad (he
has referred to as The Great Santini). I went to school too, but my
parents were ahead of their time in their level of support and love
and distaste for institutions and unquestioned authority, so my
brother and I never thought that school was very important to our
later lives.
Thanks for the questions and suggestions tho'. They made me sit back
and notice all that my kids really do.
Rach
Julie Solich
<< He doesn't have his whole life to learn about it if he wants to. If
he's thinking school or schoolwork is the answer, or if you're thinking of
risking the peace of your marriage to unschool without his approval or
cooperation, that's not balanced.<<
This is a really good reason to make changes like letting go of TV
restrictions, bedtimes, food etc gradually, to give husbands time to adjust
and to understand what you are doing and how it all works. I think it's
really important that they feel included and a part of the journey. Creating
tension and resentment in a marriage doesn't make the home a great place for
kids.
Sometimes I guess that's not possible but I think it should be a big
consideration. I gave Mark lots to read and we have spent hours talking
about unschooling/parenting/freedom...... He asked me to trust him while he
'tinkered' with it all. He had to get comfortable and make it a part of
himself.
Julie
he's thinking school or schoolwork is the answer, or if you're thinking of
risking the peace of your marriage to unschool without his approval or
cooperation, that's not balanced.<<
This is a really good reason to make changes like letting go of TV
restrictions, bedtimes, food etc gradually, to give husbands time to adjust
and to understand what you are doing and how it all works. I think it's
really important that they feel included and a part of the journey. Creating
tension and resentment in a marriage doesn't make the home a great place for
kids.
Sometimes I guess that's not possible but I think it should be a big
consideration. I gave Mark lots to read and we have spent hours talking
about unschooling/parenting/freedom...... He asked me to trust him while he
'tinkered' with it all. He had to get comfortable and make it a part of
himself.
Julie
rachel_foodie
--- In [email protected], "Julie Solich"
<mjsolich@i...> wrote:
both of them. That is why Robert and I keep talking about it. He
let it go while we unschooled a few years ago, I let it go whild we
schooled at home. But neither of us really let go of our educational
philosophies fully. And it has come up again and it's just time to
finally deal with it. We haven't had bed or tv or game restrictions
for a really long time. Mostly no food restrictions either. Ben
REALLY won't eat anything but cereal/milk, oatmeal/milk, or mac &
cheese, unless I ask him to eat something with more protein and moren
vit/min. There are biological signs that Ben may have hypoglycemia
or some other stuff we are working on. So, his food restrictions are
more about his health than control. Mostly you can eat what you want
when you want in our house. That is why I have said that we live so
unschoolingly already. It's just this finally letting go of Andrew
having to do "schoolwork" at home is what I want my husband, after 7
years of homeschooling, to finally really let go of and see what
happens. I keep telling him he might be very pleasantly surprised.
Rachel
<mjsolich@i...> wrote:
>to. If
>
> << He doesn't have his whole life to learn about it if he wants
> he's thinking school or schoolwork is the answer, or if you'rethinking of
> risking the peace of your marriage to unschool without his approvalor
> cooperation, that's not balanced.<<to adjust
>
> This is a really good reason to make changes like letting go of TV
> restrictions, bedtimes, food etc gradually, to give husbands time
> and to understand what you are doing and how it all works. I thinkit's
> really important that they feel included and a part of the journey.Creating
> tension and resentment in a marriage doesn't make the home a greatplace for
> kids.Sandra said the first part, Julie said the second part. I agree with
>
both of them. That is why Robert and I keep talking about it. He
let it go while we unschooled a few years ago, I let it go whild we
schooled at home. But neither of us really let go of our educational
philosophies fully. And it has come up again and it's just time to
finally deal with it. We haven't had bed or tv or game restrictions
for a really long time. Mostly no food restrictions either. Ben
REALLY won't eat anything but cereal/milk, oatmeal/milk, or mac &
cheese, unless I ask him to eat something with more protein and moren
vit/min. There are biological signs that Ben may have hypoglycemia
or some other stuff we are working on. So, his food restrictions are
more about his health than control. Mostly you can eat what you want
when you want in our house. That is why I have said that we live so
unschoolingly already. It's just this finally letting go of Andrew
having to do "schoolwork" at home is what I want my husband, after 7
years of homeschooling, to finally really let go of and see what
happens. I keep telling him he might be very pleasantly surprised.
Rachel
eaglefalconlark
--- In [email protected], "eaglefalconlark"
<eaglefalconlark@y...> wrote:
say is that "they have a responsibility to show by example that the
really valuable things in life also feel good. Anything else is
death to the human spirit." Didn't mean to imply that parents should
be out there getting in bad situations just to make a point...
Even so, that statement might seem a little extreme to some people.
But I'm not saying that what is truly best for us never involves any
pain. Only that the ultimate result will be positive. If it's not,
it wasn't truly the best thing, was it?
Linda
<eaglefalconlark@y...> wrote:
> TheyGee, I got a little carried away there... :p I think what I'd rather
> have a responsibility to show by example that the really valuable
> things in life also feel good, and that anything else is death to
> the human spirit.
say is that "they have a responsibility to show by example that the
really valuable things in life also feel good. Anything else is
death to the human spirit." Didn't mean to imply that parents should
be out there getting in bad situations just to make a point...
Even so, that statement might seem a little extreme to some people.
But I'm not saying that what is truly best for us never involves any
pain. Only that the ultimate result will be positive. If it's not,
it wasn't truly the best thing, was it?
Linda
Fetteroll
on 1/22/04 1:05 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
(Though seems not to have affected her ability to post since she was last
heard from at 7PM ;-)
write, sometimes interrupting one thought as another comes so I don't forget
the second thought. Usually I leave a big gap to remind me to go fill in
where I stopped!
ways to get experience and knowledge.
But our confidence in school ways reaches deeper inside us than the words
"knowledge and experience" convey which is probably why I interrupted the
thought to jot down an easier thought that was flowing out!
With school we have a lifetime of success stories so we "know" (eg, have a
tremendous amount of confidence in) that it "works" (creates nonburdensome
citizens.)
(I don't think society sees burdensome citizens as being caused by school.
They are seen as caused by factors the schools can't cope with like bad home
life and kids who don't care or who are too far outside the norm.)
(Actually it's not that society doesn't see burdensome citizens as caused by
school so much as society doesn't see an easy fix -- since the problems are
in the key factors (factory model, coerced learning and so on) that allow
schools to function -- so it's easier to place the blame outside of school.)
Anyway ... with unschooling we don't have that lifetime of stories. We have
people telling us why unschooling makes sense that it works but we don't see
the results around us -- only read accounts of unschooled kids that are
obviously filtered by biased parents -- so we don't have the same foundation
of dozens of years of second-hand and first-hand experience for the
confidence that school gives us.
citizenship.)
Sorry about that!
Joyce
>> The fears can't be logicked away. The fears make sense from a schooled pointOh my goodness Sandra hasn't been breathing since 1 yesterday afternoon!
>> of view. What helps is knowledge and
>
> And??
>
> I can't breathe until I know.
(Though seems not to have affected her ability to post since she was last
heard from at 7PM ;-)
> It cut off again. Wah.Well it was my brain that cut off, not a technical glitch! ;-) It's how I
write, sometimes interrupting one thought as another comes so I don't forget
the second thought. Usually I leave a big gap to remind me to go fill in
where I stopped!
>> The fears can't be logicked away. The fears make sense from a schooled point... experience. At least that would fit since I went on to list a bunch of
>> of view. What helps is knowledge and
ways to get experience and knowledge.
But our confidence in school ways reaches deeper inside us than the words
"knowledge and experience" convey which is probably why I interrupted the
thought to jot down an easier thought that was flowing out!
With school we have a lifetime of success stories so we "know" (eg, have a
tremendous amount of confidence in) that it "works" (creates nonburdensome
citizens.)
(I don't think society sees burdensome citizens as being caused by school.
They are seen as caused by factors the schools can't cope with like bad home
life and kids who don't care or who are too far outside the norm.)
(Actually it's not that society doesn't see burdensome citizens as caused by
school so much as society doesn't see an easy fix -- since the problems are
in the key factors (factory model, coerced learning and so on) that allow
schools to function -- so it's easier to place the blame outside of school.)
Anyway ... with unschooling we don't have that lifetime of stories. We have
people telling us why unschooling makes sense that it works but we don't see
the results around us -- only read accounts of unschooled kids that are
obviously filtered by biased parents -- so we don't have the same foundation
of dozens of years of second-hand and first-hand experience for the
confidence that school gives us.
>> It's also helpful to realize the goals of unschooling are different than... by society as a beginning point to successful careers (and nonburdensome
>> other ways of schooling and homeschooling. The goal is helping the child be
>> who he is right now and help him grow into who he will become. The goal of
>> schooling is to get a child to some specific place that it's assumed
citizenship.)
Sorry about that!
Joyce
Danielle Conger
Rachel wrote:
Things I know are true. Like how great Ben is and not to look at the problems he has (and they are legit) but to look
at what wonderful things there are about him and what a loving kid he is. He is better off at home. Ben had 5 weeks of special ed public school. It was a bloody nightmare!
======================================================
I just wanted to say again how wonderful Mary Gold's (this is zenmomma, right?) article on Special Needs or Just Special? was. I re-read it because of this thread and remembered how great I thought it was when I read it in HEM. It is just so beautiful, and it really brought home to me how important and precious unschooling is for children. That article really touched me--thank you!
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Things I know are true. Like how great Ben is and not to look at the problems he has (and they are legit) but to look
at what wonderful things there are about him and what a loving kid he is. He is better off at home. Ben had 5 weeks of special ed public school. It was a bloody nightmare!
======================================================
I just wanted to say again how wonderful Mary Gold's (this is zenmomma, right?) article on Special Needs or Just Special? was. I re-read it because of this thread and remembered how great I thought it was when I read it in HEM. It is just so beautiful, and it really brought home to me how important and precious unschooling is for children. That article really touched me--thank you!
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]