Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] WItchcraft type play was: spectrum kids, rage, u...
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rose@... writes:
announced to her folks and to her school friends that she was a witch. The other
girls' parents then set up a sort of united "intervention" and told her
parents that no one would be allowed to talk to her anymore because she was a
dangerous influence. Her folks were so distressed that they pulled her out of her
public school and enrolled her in a tiny conservative Christian school until she
was sufficiently back in the fold and dropped the witch identity.
It had nothing to do with television and btw, as I remember the Salem
witch trials --long before tv -- the horror wasn't in young girls pretending
to be witches but the opposite. It was in their own claim to know who was holy
and who was possessed by evil, followed by pointing fingers at other people to
renounce their own evil or be forcibly expelled them from the community or be
purged by death. I'd say witches and television have a lot in common as
scapegoats for all manner of human behavior and belief.
I kept thinking that if they'd focused on what was going on with their
daughter in the first place, rather than responding to
witchcraft-as-religious-trigger, it could have been better for all concerned. They compounded the
problem imo with their determination to make her to conform instead of
discovering why she was rebelling.
What I mean is, I guess, that if I believed literally in either
salvation or hell and the Bible as the only thing standing between the two, I would
choose the approach with the strongest likelihood of permanently saving my
children. Which, in my mind, would be to help build the highest possible
individual strength, confidence and commitment in my children, so that I know they can
stand up for themselves and what they believe, and trust their own decisions,
against anyone or anything -- I'd want them to withstand peer pressure and
institutional pressure rather than teach them to yield to it, for example.
And for a parent to succeed at all that takes more than not forcing
children to comply, imo, it takes CELEBRATING their exploration and learning
about themselves and what they need and want, cheering them on as they search for
what to believe and draw sustenance from their whole lives.
If my goal were to raise committed Christians, I wouldn't undermine
their fledgling independent ideas or choices, or tell them what to think, or act
in ways that make my religion or the Bible itself seem to be just glorified
peer pressure for the purpose of keeping each other on the straight and narrow,
et cetera.
Just as I wouldn't arrange their marriages or choose their college
major, I wouldn't do these things because they aren't practical, they don't get
the best results! They aren't well-suited to the long-term goal.
The girl is back in public school now, after she served her year in
the cloistered (and she says suffocating) setting. She's been allowed to join a
couple of theater productions with Dd (theater folk are not always exactly
"wholesome <g>) and also to visit some different churches with Dd and then
dissect their differences, which they are enjoying.
I secretly wonder if the parents learned more from the whole thing
than their daughter did, and I kinda suspect so, but don't know for sure. Hope
so. :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>This actually happened to a good friend of our Dd13 last year. She
> What I would do is show them in the Bible where this is wrong and what
> happened to King Solomon when he did turn to witchcraft for help.
> Not against you Kelly, just don't agree with your religion.
> I also would do the same with ANY religion that I didn't feel was Bible
> based.
>
> At the same time I could not force them NOT to explore. I would feel very
> sad if my kids came home wanting to be any other faith that is not Bible
> based. I would still love them just as much...
>
announced to her folks and to her school friends that she was a witch. The other
girls' parents then set up a sort of united "intervention" and told her
parents that no one would be allowed to talk to her anymore because she was a
dangerous influence. Her folks were so distressed that they pulled her out of her
public school and enrolled her in a tiny conservative Christian school until she
was sufficiently back in the fold and dropped the witch identity.
It had nothing to do with television and btw, as I remember the Salem
witch trials --long before tv -- the horror wasn't in young girls pretending
to be witches but the opposite. It was in their own claim to know who was holy
and who was possessed by evil, followed by pointing fingers at other people to
renounce their own evil or be forcibly expelled them from the community or be
purged by death. I'd say witches and television have a lot in common as
scapegoats for all manner of human behavior and belief.
I kept thinking that if they'd focused on what was going on with their
daughter in the first place, rather than responding to
witchcraft-as-religious-trigger, it could have been better for all concerned. They compounded the
problem imo with their determination to make her to conform instead of
discovering why she was rebelling.
What I mean is, I guess, that if I believed literally in either
salvation or hell and the Bible as the only thing standing between the two, I would
choose the approach with the strongest likelihood of permanently saving my
children. Which, in my mind, would be to help build the highest possible
individual strength, confidence and commitment in my children, so that I know they can
stand up for themselves and what they believe, and trust their own decisions,
against anyone or anything -- I'd want them to withstand peer pressure and
institutional pressure rather than teach them to yield to it, for example.
And for a parent to succeed at all that takes more than not forcing
children to comply, imo, it takes CELEBRATING their exploration and learning
about themselves and what they need and want, cheering them on as they search for
what to believe and draw sustenance from their whole lives.
If my goal were to raise committed Christians, I wouldn't undermine
their fledgling independent ideas or choices, or tell them what to think, or act
in ways that make my religion or the Bible itself seem to be just glorified
peer pressure for the purpose of keeping each other on the straight and narrow,
et cetera.
Just as I wouldn't arrange their marriages or choose their college
major, I wouldn't do these things because they aren't practical, they don't get
the best results! They aren't well-suited to the long-term goal.
The girl is back in public school now, after she served her year in
the cloistered (and she says suffocating) setting. She's been allowed to join a
couple of theater productions with Dd (theater folk are not always exactly
"wholesome <g>) and also to visit some different churches with Dd and then
dissect their differences, which they are enjoying.
I secretly wonder if the parents learned more from the whole thing
than their daughter did, and I kinda suspect so, but don't know for sure. Hope
so. :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/19/04 7:44:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, rose@...
writes:
going to any ceremony that I was invited to. I would have no problem helping
my children explore any religion they wanted. I would rather discuss it with
them then have them out there on their own. I have been to and participated
in different ceremonies with different friends and family members it just
doesn't hold the same meaning for me as it does for them. But I am always touched
that they would invite me to something so personal as a religious or spiritual
ceremony.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> No I don't think I could go to a wiccaning or a handfasting. I wouldn'tThis is an interesting thread. I am a Christian but I would have no problem
> love my children any less. I can support them and still not belive the way
> they chose.
>
>
going to any ceremony that I was invited to. I would have no problem helping
my children explore any religion they wanted. I would rather discuss it with
them then have them out there on their own. I have been to and participated
in different ceremonies with different friends and family members it just
doesn't hold the same meaning for me as it does for them. But I am always touched
that they would invite me to something so personal as a religious or spiritual
ceremony.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/19/04 4:04:20 PM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< I'd want them to withstand peer pressure and
institutional pressure rather than teach them to yield to it, for example. >>
Not if the institution was the church and the peers were the church members.
Many Christian homeschoolers' existence involves keeping their children "in
the fold" like sheep, where their only exposure is to Christian input. There
are Christian knock-offs of Goosebumps and of romance novels. There's a
Christian knock-off of the Crystal Cave series. They will go to great lengths to
give their kids the illusion that they are allowing them freedom, but it's all
sham-freedom. It's like the Truman Show in a way.
<< If my goal were to raise committed Christians>>
If you were that kind of fundamentalist Christian you would be told it is
your duty to keep your children in line because Jesus could come today, and if
your children are not saved you will be separated from them for eternity in
addition to facing God's judgment for not being a good Christian parent.
There are arguments you can find easily online that say if you raise your
children without spanking them you are in direct violation of God's order to
parents.
I wish I could say "Sorry I changed the subject," but it's not a change of
subject.
That girl said she was a witch because she had been exposed to Satanic
influences and was being lured away from God. Her eternal soul was in immediate
peril.
Sandra
<< I'd want them to withstand peer pressure and
institutional pressure rather than teach them to yield to it, for example. >>
Not if the institution was the church and the peers were the church members.
Many Christian homeschoolers' existence involves keeping their children "in
the fold" like sheep, where their only exposure is to Christian input. There
are Christian knock-offs of Goosebumps and of romance novels. There's a
Christian knock-off of the Crystal Cave series. They will go to great lengths to
give their kids the illusion that they are allowing them freedom, but it's all
sham-freedom. It's like the Truman Show in a way.
<< If my goal were to raise committed Christians>>
If you were that kind of fundamentalist Christian you would be told it is
your duty to keep your children in line because Jesus could come today, and if
your children are not saved you will be separated from them for eternity in
addition to facing God's judgment for not being a good Christian parent.
There are arguments you can find easily online that say if you raise your
children without spanking them you are in direct violation of God's order to
parents.
I wish I could say "Sorry I changed the subject," but it's not a change of
subject.
That girl said she was a witch because she had been exposed to Satanic
influences and was being lured away from God. Her eternal soul was in immediate
peril.
Sandra
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In a message dated 1/19/04 7:47:23 PM Central Standard Time, Genant2@...
writes:
I'm also a Christian, and I have been honored to be invited to experience
other religions' rituals. Even as a Christian, I believe in things and have
participated in rituals that most other Christians would find difficult -- I have
sung at two gay unions, for example (my kids were ushers at the second). I'd
LOVE to sing at a handfasting!
As far as helping my children explore other religions, Liam and I are
involved in a Comparative Religions co-op group with families that are
Buddhist/Universalist, Wiccan, Jewish, Catholic and Baptist (we're Lutheran). We visited a
Taoist temple last week then went to eat Vietnamese food.
Life is good.
Laura B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> > No I don't think I could go to a wiccaning or a handfasting. II'm with you on this one, Pam -- well said.
> wouldn't
> > love my children any less. I can support them and still not belive the
> way
> > they chose.
> >
> >
>
> This is an interesting thread. I am a Christian but I would have no problem
>
> going to any ceremony that I was invited to. I would have no problem
> helping
> my children explore any religion they wanted.
I'm also a Christian, and I have been honored to be invited to experience
other religions' rituals. Even as a Christian, I believe in things and have
participated in rituals that most other Christians would find difficult -- I have
sung at two gay unions, for example (my kids were ushers at the second). I'd
LOVE to sing at a handfasting!
As far as helping my children explore other religions, Liam and I are
involved in a Comparative Religions co-op group with families that are
Buddhist/Universalist, Wiccan, Jewish, Catholic and Baptist (we're Lutheran). We visited a
Taoist temple last week then went to eat Vietnamese food.
Life is good.
Laura B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]