Wendy Carr

I agree with Kelly... nothing wrong with Witch shows, they are pretend, fun,
funny, and FANTACY. I really dont think its goning to turn kids into
witches. And further more they are just MAKE-BELIEVE, as there are NO
WITCHES that I know of that have those kinds of POWERS. Its make believe.
Why take away a childs natural need for fantacy?
Its OK to be Christian... Its OK to have beliefs....but please dont ruin
your kids good time by being overly sensitive about TV SHOWS>


>From: "Kelly Lenhart" <mina@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] WItchcraft type play was: spectrum kids,
>rage, unschooling
>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 13:32:01 -0500
>


Wendy Carr
When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a
thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the beginning
of fairies. - Barrie
Mom to Austyn(8) and Caitlin(5 months)

Proud To Home-school!

_________________________________________________________________
Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up � fast & reliable Internet access with prime
features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wendy Carr

Yes I was also thinking that Unschooling and the Bible/Christians dont go
together... but I DO believe in A GOD....but I am VERY OPEN to other beliefs


>From: "Kelly Lenhart" <mina@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] WItchcraft type play was: spectrum
>kids, rage, unschooling
>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:52:41 -0500
>


Wendy Carr
When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a
thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the beginning
of fairies. - Barrie
Mom to Austyn(8) and Caitlin(5 months)

Proud To Home-school!

_________________________________________________________________
Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here.
http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

liza sabater

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 01:38 PM, Wendy Carr wrote:

> I agree with Kelly... nothing wrong with Witch shows,

When my mom was young she kinda of looked like the woman from Bewitch.
MAN! I sooooooo wanted to have her powers (Samantha, was her name,
right). To this day, I dream of having that magical nose, especially
during the blasted cold weather.



l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

tjreynoso

--- In [email protected], "Wendy Carr"
<WendyWCarr@m...> wrote:
> Yes I was also thinking that Unschooling and the Bible/Christians
dont go
> together... but I DO believe in A GOD....but I am VERY OPEN to
other beliefs
>


I don't understand. What is it about Christianity that you find
limiting for unschooling? I personally have found it very
liberating! If a Christian loves and respects her children and
treats them accordingly, how does her faith become a handicap? You
don't have to be a Christian to unschool. That's not my point. But
you CAN be a Christian and unschool. If the argument is that a
parent will want to limit a child's experiences because it doesn't
conform to their beliefs, than yeah, that would be a handicap. But,
me personally as a Christian don't think that hammering your faith
into a child's head is going to produce a true believer anyway.
Because no matter what you believe, if you're Christian or Pagan
or.... you're still going to hold your breath and see and hope you
might have your faith or lack thereof in common with your children.
But it's not necessary in order to love them and respect them. Even
Jesus recognized the value of free will.

Tanya

Elizabeth Roberts

Well, coming from a conservative and somewhat fundamentalist Christian, it does and can go together with unschooling.

MamaBeth

Wendy Carr <WendyWCarr@...> wrote:
Yes I was also thinking that Unschooling and the Bible/Christians dont go
together... but I DO believe in A GOD....but I am VERY OPEN to other beliefs


>From: "Kelly Lenhart" <mina@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] WItchcraft type play was: spectrum
>kids, rage, unschooling
>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:52:41 -0500
>


Wendy Carr
When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a
thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the beginning
of fairies. - Barrie
Mom to Austyn(8) and Caitlin(5 months)

Proud To Home-school!

_________________________________________________________________
Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here.
http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Wife2Vegman

--- tjreynoso <tjreynoso@...> wrote:
>
> I don't understand. What is it about Christianity
> that you find
> limiting for unschooling? I personally have found
> it very
> liberating! If a Christian loves and respects her
> children and
> treats them accordingly, how does her faith become a
> handicap? You
> don't have to be a Christian to unschool. That's not
> my point. But
> you CAN be a Christian and unschool.

Yes, you can. Teri Brown and Elissa Wahl wrote a book
called Christian Unschooling.



> If the argument is that a
> parent will want to limit a child's experiences
> because it doesn't
> conform to their beliefs, than yeah, that would be a
> handicap. But,
> me personally as a Christian don't think that
> hammering your faith
> into a child's head is going to produce a true
> believer anyway.

Lots of Christians do think that way, and I know a LOT
of them for whom it would take a miracle for them to
become unschoolers. They would have to reject a lot
of what is taught from the pulpit about their
children. I know I had to.


> Because no matter what you believe, if you're
> Christian or Pagan
> or.... you're still going to hold your breath and
> see and hope you
> might have your faith or lack thereof in common with
> your children.

But many Christians are taught that all they have to
do is follow a book about child training by the Ezzos
or Pearls and their children will become Christians.
And if they just spank hard enough and long enough and
often enough, their children will stop sinning and
will pray and ask Jesus into their heart.

Any child would pray that prayer just to get the
spanking to stop.

> But it's not necessary in order to love them and
> respect them. Even
> Jesus recognized the value of free will.
>
> Tanya

True, and there is a Christian unschooling list at
yahoo groups called CCU (christ-centered unschooling)
and there are several other similar lists that are
smaller. CCU-List@...

CCU has a different flavor than this one, being more
like a coffee club and the conversations more like you
would find sitting on a porch swing with some friends
who happen to be unschoolers/homeschoolers. Not
everyone is there to specifically talk about
unschooling, but are willing if someone brings it up.

I like both that list and this one, as they each fill
a need in my growth as an unschooler.



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

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tjreynoso

Maybe my confusion about the concept that christianity and
unschooling don't mix stems from the fact that I view my children
with wonder. I don't subscribe to the notion that they're bad. And
this doesn't conflict with unschooling for me. Original sin doesn't
mean we are all evil. But we are all capable of it. That goes for
all humans (christian or not)with free will. It's not the same
thing. Maybe the assumption that all Christians are preaching about
hell's fire and damnation needs to be let go. As for the ones that
are, they'll probably never attempt unschooling anyway, so it's a
mute point.

Tanya :)

kayb85

> True, and there is a Christian unschooling list at
> yahoo groups called CCU (christ-centered unschooling)
> and there are several other similar lists that are
> smaller. CCU-List@y...
>
> CCU has a different flavor than this one, being more
> like a coffee club and the conversations more like you
> would find sitting on a porch swing with some friends
> who happen to be unschoolers/homeschoolers. Not
> everyone is there to specifically talk about
> unschooling, but are willing if someone brings it up.
>
> I like both that list and this one, as they each fill
> a need in my growth as an unschooler.


I was on that list for awhile when I was teetering on the line
between relaxed homeschooler and unschooler and again when I was a
new unschooler. I asked how they unschool math and I got the answer
that most of them still use a curriculum for math. I heard them
saying stuff about unit studies and I asked how that was unschooling
and I got yelled at for being limited in my definition of
unschooler. They want to be able to call ecclectic and unit study
homeschoolers unschoolers. I don't recommend the list as an
unschooling resource at all.

The Christian unschooling book was good for uptight Christian
homeschoolers to learn to relax some, but I felt it gave a poor
picture of what unschooling is. Again, it talked about unit studies
as though they were unschooling.

Sheila

Wife2Vegman

--- kayb85 <sheran@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I was on that list for awhile when I was teetering
> on the line
> between relaxed homeschooler and unschooler and
> again when I was a
> new unschooler. I asked how they unschool math and
> I got the answer
> that most of them still use a curriculum for math.
> I heard them
> saying stuff about unit studies and I asked how that
> was unschooling
> and I got yelled at for being limited in my
> definition of
> unschooler.

Yelled at? Hmm...I rarely hear yelling going on over
there. Although the recent debate there about the
Atkins diet versus Vegetarianism got rather heated.



> They want to be able to call ecclectic
> and unit study
> homeschoolers unschoolers. I don't recommend the
> list as an
> unschooling resource at all.

Many true unschoolers are on that list, and has been a
great resource. Maybe you didn't stick around long
enough. Although the friendships on that particular
list are thicker than just unschooling, and there are
plenty of non-unschoolers there who don't even claim
to be unschoolers, it is still a fine list for what
some people are looking for...support and a place to
relax.

Like I said, it is a different flavor from this one,
which is not a support group and serves a different
need. Sounds like you are right where you need to be
now. That is great.

>
> The Christian unschooling book was good for uptight
> Christian
> homeschoolers to learn to relax some, but I felt it
> gave a poor
> picture of what unschooling is. Again, it talked
> about unit studies
> as though they were unschooling.
>
> Sheila
>
>

The book does use a broader definition of unschooling
than is found here and many of the essays are by
homeschoolers who are moving towards unschooling, so
are still using curricula in one way or another.

It talks as unit studies as a *bridge* between
homeschooling and unschooling, not that unit studies
ARE unschooling.

Perhaps it has been a while since you read the book,
though, Sheila.

That's cool. Not every resource is for everybody.
That is why there is so much available.



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
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Kelly Lenhart

>I don't understand. What is it about Christianity that you find
>limiting for unschooling? I personally have found it very
>liberating!

For me, personally, it is the doctrine of original sin which I find
antithetical to unschooling.

I'm learning a lot about how others see the issue though. This is a very
interesting conversation.

Kelly

Kelly Lenhart

>Maybe my confusion about the concept that christianity and
>unschooling don't mix stems from the fact that I view my children
>with wonder. I don't subscribe to the notion that they're bad. And
>this doesn't conflict with unschooling for me.

Well, that helps. -grin-

> Original sin doesn't
>mean we are all evil. But we are all capable of it. That goes for
>all humans (christian or not)with free will. It's not the same
>thing.

That's one interpretation of original sin, I suppose. But my understanding
is that the whole point of Christ's martyrdom is that we are all doomed
because of original sin, unless we follow him. So if you don't follow him,
then that original sin takes over and you are bad. At what point then do
children who do not become Christian become bad? (According to this logic,
rather than actually.)

> Maybe the assumption that all Christians are preaching about
>hell's fire and damnation needs to be let go. As for the ones that
>are, they'll probably never attempt unschooling anyway, so it's a
>mute point.

Except that we have a handful of fairly conservative Christians on the list.
They are thoughtful parents trying as hard as any of us to unschool well.

Kelly

Wife2Vegman

--- Kelly Lenhart <mina@...> wrote:
>
> > Maybe the assumption that all Christians are
> preaching about
> >hell's fire and damnation needs to be let go. As
> for the ones that
> >are, they'll probably never attempt unschooling
> anyway, so it's a
> >mute point.
>
> Except that we have a handful of fairly conservative
> Christians on the list.
> They are thoughtful parents trying as hard as any of
> us to unschool well.
>
> Kelly
>
>

Well, maybe it is a matter of trust. I'll try to
explain, but I am getting sleepy! LOL!

To a conservative Christian, hell fire and damnation
are real...but...

I've been taught that original sin doesn't mean we are
"bad". That would be a rather simplistic explanation.
It means we are separated from God. Christ
reconciled us back to Himself on Easter morning out of
his great love for us.

There is a much longer, theological explanation, CS
Lewis and Francis Schaeffer do it much better than I,
and that isn't my point here.

Now, living in fear of hell fire and damnation would
be terribly stressful. I mean really! The ultimate
stress factor.

I could also live in fear of being hit by a car, of my
child becoming a drug addict, of my husband being shot
on his way to work (living through the sniper attacks
in this area was STRESSFUL)!

Living by faith means that I have faith that God can
move mountains, created our beautiful earth and each
of you. Living by intrinsically motivated faith means
that He put that faith inside my heart when He created
me, and in my children's hearts when He created them.

"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he
is old he will not depart from it"

That verse has been twisted and mangled to mean a lot
of bad things...that we must control our children,
beat our children, force-feed religion to our
children, you name it.

But I am living by faith. Faith that my God who
planted this faith inside me also planted it inside my
children. Faith that by trying my best to model
genuine faith before their eyes and by answering their
questions, and asking their forgiveness when I make
mistakes, the faith inside them will be nurtured and
grow, and when they are old they won't depart from it.
But faithful to model it before them, regardless of
how the outcome looks. Ultimately, Totally, from the
beginning, it is between them and God.

I live by faith, not by fear. So I can unschool, and
trust God, and believe that the same God who can
rescue me from hell can rescue them, and He will.

By faith.

I really hope my children do start to question, and
wonder, and test the boundaries. Because then I know
that that seed that God placed in there is starting to
grow and become their own faith. I think I will
rejoice when it starts to happen (well, ok, the 14yo
is already there...LOL!)

Ok, I am not going to post much any more on this
subject, because I feel I am starting to get preachy
and no one likes a preachy unschooler ;-)

Goodnight, List!



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/20/04 11:32:33 PM Central Standard Time, mina@...
writes:


>
> For me, personally, it is the doctrine of original sin which I find
> antithetical to unschooling.
>

Kelly --

Try reading the marvelous book _Original Blessing_ by once Catholic now
Episcopal priest Matthew Fox. You can start with this brief review from the
Spirituality and Health website:
http://www.spiritualityhealth.com/newsh/items/bookreview/item_2448.html

Anyone who is interested in Fox's teachings can visit his foundation at
www.creationspirituality.org

From that review:

<<With pinpoint accuracy, Fox notes: "The forces of fear and pessimism so
prevalent in society and religion need to be countered by an increased awareness
of awe and goodness." Throughout the book, the author celebrates the wonder of
creation and "the royal personhood" of individuals. Each of the chapters
begins with a treasure trove of thought-provoking quotations from religious
writers including Meister Eckhart, Hildegard of Bingen, Teilhard de Chardin, Julian
of Norwich, Dorothy Day, and many others.>>

Fox maintains that the concept of Original Sin is increasingly, and rightly,
rejected by the majority of Christians, and that as God created us in the
image of God, we are loved and beautiful exactly as we are.

I find that this perspective is perfectly compatible with the celebration of
the individual intrinsic to the unschooling life philosophy.

Your questions are good ones. :-)

Laura B.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 1/20/04 11:45 AM, tjreynoso at tjreynoso@... wrote:

> Maybe the assumption that all Christians are preaching about
> hell's fire and damnation needs to be let go.

As far as I can tell, no one's made that assumption.

But we are talking about fundamenatlist Christians specifically because
other denominations of Christianity -- and in general other religions --
don't have the conflicts with unschooling that fundamentalist Christianity
-- and probably any fundamentalist religion really -- potentially can have.

What makes the discussions confusing is that many fundamentalist Christians
-- and significantly the politically active ones that get their views in
front of the public -- use Christian to be synonymous with their own brand
of Christianity. And so general society now uses Christian to mean *both*
fundamentalist Christian and the broader meaning of Christian. Which meaning
they intend for Christian is usually pretty clear from the context.

Of course to make it more confusing, some people do equate fundamentalists
with mainstream Christians. But, to me at least, it's usually pretty obvious
when someone's doing that from how their wording what they're saying.

Joyce

kayb85

I asked how they unschool math and
> > I got the answer
> > that most of them still use a curriculum for math.
> > I heard them
> > saying stuff about unit studies and I asked how that
> > was unschooling
> > and I got yelled at for being limited in my
> > definition of
> > unschooler.
>
> Yelled at? Hmm...I rarely hear yelling going on over
> there. Although the recent debate there about the
> Atkins diet versus Vegetarianism got rather heated.

Maybe yelled at wasn't the best choice of words. Severely scolded?
I definitely ruffled more than a few feathers when I said stuff
like, "But that's not unschooling!" when they talked about doing
Charlotte Mason or Saxon math. I was basically told how dare I have
such a narrow definition of unschooling, and if someone considered a
day of handwriting, math, and mandatory Scripture study to be
unschooling, who was I to say it wasn't?


> The book does use a broader definition of unschooling
> than is found here and many of the essays are by
> homeschoolers who are moving towards unschooling, so
> are still using curricula in one way or another.
>
> It talks as unit studies as a *bridge* between
> homeschooling and unschooling, not that unit studies
> ARE unschooling.

> Perhaps it has been a while since you read the book,
> though, Sheila.
>
> That's cool. Not every resource is for everybody.
> That is why there is so much available.

It has been awhile since I read it and I have stopped lending the
book out and just gave it away since I'm trying to declutter and
didn't have a personal need for it anymore. I do remember them
talking about unit studies as a bridge to unschooling. But I also
remember that of all the essays in the book, only a few were what I
would consider unschoolers. The majority would be what I would
consider relaxed homeschoolers. And some of the essays that were
supposedly about unschooling talked about doing unit study type
stuff.

I think it would be a great resource for Christian homeschoolers and
I have no problem with the book itself--just that it being called
Christian UNSCHOOLING is likely to lead a lot of Christians into
believing that they're unschooling when they're really not. The
unschooling lifestyle is so rich and good that it would be a shame if
people don't ever fully "get there" because a book led them to
believe that unschooling sometimes involves use of curriculum and
parent-designed, parent-led lessons.

Sheila

Kelly Lenhart

>Fox maintains that the concept of Original Sin is increasingly, and
rightly,
>rejected by the majority of Christians, and that as God created us in the
>image of God, we are loved and beautiful exactly as we are.

I've heard of him. Sure can't be a Bible literalist and hold this
iew! -grin-

>I find that this perspective is perfectly compatible with the celebration
of
>the individual intrinsic to the unschooling life philosophy.

Yes, I can see that working.

>Your questions are good ones. :-)

Thanks.

Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/04 5:06:14 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< Of course to make it more confusing, some people do equate fundamentalists
with mainstream Christians. >>

In the Bible Belt, they ARE the mainstream.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/04 11:31:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> In the Bible Belt, they ARE the mainstream

Oh so true, (sigh).
Pam G from NC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/2004 8:31:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> In a message dated 1/21/04 5:06:14 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
>
> <<Of course to make it more confusing, some people do equate fundamentalists
> with mainstream Christians. >>
>
> In the Bible Belt, they ARE the mainstream.
>
> Sandra
>

I'm trying to teach my kids the difference now. After our experiences they
are anti-christian. I've tried to point out that 'normal' people also call
themselves christian but when we were in town the other day there was a evangelical
group singing and talking with a microphone. Rhodri marched up to them and
told them to shut up and stop bothering people. He was practically spitting with
annoyance.
I was mortified as I've always tried to bring them up to be tolerant but I
thik fundies in the US hurt them more than I realised :-(

Shyrley


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]