WItchcraft type play was: spectrum kids, rage, unschooling

Kelly Lenhart

19 Jan 2004, at 1:32pm

>To put it simply, we're a Christian family. Mostly it'd been Sabrina the

Teenage Witch that we >were concerned about that is explicitly witchcraft,
as well as more mature shows like Buffy and >Charmed. Then there are shows
like Pokemon, Sailor Moon, Yu-Gi-Oh and others that deal >with monsters,
powers, and such.

>Now though...we talk about it all more in context with our beliefs and

Rose

19 Jan 2004, at 2:06pm

What I would do is show them in the Bible where this is wrong and what
happened to King Solomon when he did turn to witchcraft for help.

Not against you Kelly, just don't agree with your religion.

I also would do the same with ANY religion that I didn't feel was Bible
based.

At the same time I could not force them NOT to explore. I would feel very
sad if my kids came home wanting to be any other faith that is not Bible
based. I would still love them just as much...

Just my 2 cents...

Rose

-------Original Message-------

If you don't mind answering--what would you do, feel, think if one of your
kids came to you and said they felt the need to explore Wicca or another
Pagan (witchy) religion? I'm not trying to jump on you or anything. I've
had to consider that the other way around--what if my kids decided they
wanted to go to church or be Christian.

Kelly
(the witchy one -smile-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lenhart

19 Jan 2004, at 3:52pm

>What I would do is show them in the Bible where this is wrong and what
>happened to King Solomon when he did turn to witchcraft for help.

And if they said, "That's just a story. And it doesn't talk about the kind
of practice that is really going on now?"

>Not against you Kelly, just don't agree with your religion.

Same back at ya'---big smile---

>I also would do the same with ANY religion that I didn't feel was Bible
>based.

And mine most certainly isn't. Can't argue that one.

>At the same time I could not force them NOT to explore. I would feel very
>sad if my kids came home wanting to be any other faith that is not Bible
>based. I would still love them just as much...

But would you be able to do it in a really open way? Go to a Wiccaning
rather than a baptism? Go to a handfasting rather than a wedding?
Participate in their spiritual life if they asked?

I don't ask these questions to make people think their faith is wrong. I
mean, I think it is, obviously, because I've chosen a different one. But
I'm totally open to the idea that *I* might be wrong, so why should I get in
the way of their finding their path? But the more I think about it, the
more I find Christianity to be theologically apart from unschooling. And so
I wonder how more conservative, fundamental Christians cope with these
issues.

Kelly

tjreynoso

19 Jan 2004, at 4:14pm

>But the more I think about it, the
> more I find Christianity to be theologically apart from

unschooling. And so

> I wonder how more conservative, fundamental Christians cope with

these

> issues.
>
> Kelly

Very good question Kelly. But for me personally, I wouldn't have
even considered unschooling if it werent' for my faith (which
happens to be christian). My faith helps me trust in my children
and the belief that they have been created beautifully in God's
image and don't need any "fixing" or "teaching" This is 'my' faith
and 'my' belief. It is not an attack on anyone who doesn't share
this belief. But you did ask. Maybe, the view of Christianity as
being harsh and all about the "don'ts" is what contributes to the
misconception that a Christian can't unschool. I haven't had that
type of experience with Christianity and I am sorry for anyone who
has.

There is no objectivity on this topic. There really can't be when it
comes to faith, whatever yours may be. Anyone who is going to
bother commenting is obviously passionate about theirs or lack
thereof.

It seems a disclaimer has to be added to posts so that someone
doesn't take it the wrong way and run with it.

Elizabeth Roberts

19 Jan 2004, at 4:31pm

Kelly,

I'd point them in the direction of my older brother (NOT! but for other reason that his being a Wiccan). I'd remind them that their beliefs are their own, but that I don't agree with them and why. They'd still be loved whatever their choice, and I'd let them know that as well.

MamaBeth

Kelly Lenhart <mina@...> wrote:

>To put it simply, we're a Christian family. Mostly it'd been Sabrina the

>Now though...we talk about it all more in context with our beliefs and

keeping in mind that it IS >fantasy and there is nothing wrong with the
fantasy parts of it all...it's in losing a grip on what is >fantasy and what
is real and then seeking out the real parts described within the fantasy,
which >will lead to harm.

Well, speaking as a real witch---ie, a practicing Neo-Pagan--very little of
what kids see on TV has any relation to my religion. Admittedly, Willow is
the closest. Well, maybe Tara was, really. But still--what they see is
pretend. What they do from what they see is pretend.

I like that others pointed out it's just another kind of fantasy play. Just
like being a superhero. That's all Charmed is. A set of superheroes using
the "witch" archetype.

And there is a lot to admire about all these women, not the least of which
is their strength of personality. And their willingness to help others and
their willingness to work hard at their craft. All valuable traits.

If you don't mind answering--what would you do, feel, think if one of your
kids came to you and said they felt the need to explore Wicca or another
Pagan (witchy) religion? I'm not trying to jump on you or anything. I've
had to consider that the other way around--what if my kids decided they
wanted to go to church or be Christian.

Kelly
(the witchy one -smile-)

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rose

19 Jan 2004, at 4:49pm

I would be as supportive as I could.

No I don't think I could go to a wiccaning or a handfasting. I wouldn't
love my children any less. I can support them and still not belive the way
they chose.

I don't mind you asking the questions at all. I think it really helps us to
learn ourselves when asked tough questions.

I hope I don't come across as "condemning" or 'holier than though' either.

I do love learning of other religions and have found this discussion very
enlightening.

There are different kinds of 'Christians' just as there are different kinds
of 'parenting' ( I currently am not unschooling full time.. I am making a
slow transition because my 8 year old doesn't take to sudden change well.. I
guess in a way I am sneaking it in on him)

<hugs>
Rose

-------Original Message-------

But would you be able to do it in a really open way? Go to a Wiccaning
rather than a baptism? Go to a handfasting rather than a wedding?
Participate in their spiritual life if they asked?

I don't ask these questions to make people think their faith is wrong. I
mean, I think it is, obviously, because I've chosen a different one. But
I'm totally open to the idea that *I* might be wrong, so why should I get in
the way of their finding their path? But the more I think about it, the
more I find Christianity to be theologically apart from unschooling. And so
I wonder how more conservative, fundamental Christians cope with these
issues.

Kelly

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

liza sabater

19 Jan 2004, at 4:56pm

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 03:52 PM, Kelly Lenhart wrote:

> Christianity to be theologically apart from unschooling

i think this of all religions.

l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Roberts

19 Jan 2004, at 5:00pm

that should have read (Not! but for other reasons than that of his being a Wiccan)

Elizabeth Roberts <mamabethuscg@...> wrote:
Kelly,

I'd point them in the direction of my older brother (NOT! but for other reason that his being a Wiccan). I'd remind them that their beliefs are their own, but that I don't agree with them and why. They'd still be loved whatever their choice, and I'd let them know that as well.

MamaBeth

Kelly Lenhart <mina@...> wrote:

>To put it simply, we're a Christian family. Mostly it'd been Sabrina the

>Now though...we talk about it all more in context with our beliefs and

[email protected]

19 Jan 2004, at 7:19pm

In a message dated 1/19/04 3:07:40 PM, tjreynoso@... writes:

<< It seems a disclaimer has to be added to posts so that someone

doesn't take it the wrong way and run with it. >>

The policies of the list already say not to post what you don't want
discussed and not to post what you're unwilling to defend (or something like that).

Sandra

Wife2Vegman

19 Jan 2004, at 7:43pm

--- Kelly Lenhart <mina@...> wrote:

> And so
> I wonder how more conservative, fundamental
> Christians cope with these
> issues.
>
> Kelly
>
>

By being discerning about how to talk to our
fundamental friends about these issues, and doing a
LOT of thinking and praying about it so we are at
peace with our decisions that seem to run counter to
some of the words coming from the pulpit in front of
us. Knowing why we made these decisions and how helps
tremendously.

By doing a LOT of talking with our children about why
we are living the way we do, and showing them that it
is not contradictory to our faith to unschool, to use
gentle parenting, and to be vegetarian.

The resources are out there to support our decisions,
but they are overwhelmed by the resources by the
majority sometimes. But there are Christian
unschoolers, Christians who don't spank their
children, and Christians that are vegetarian.

So why do we stay in our church? Well, if we felt
that it was becoming an issue or that our children
were being made to feel like sinners for our choices,
we would not stay. But right now it seems that while
we are viewed as quirky and permissive, we have not
been told that our choices are wrong and unbiblical,
which would be legalistic and we would be out the door
really fast!

=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

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Kelly Lenhart

19 Jan 2004, at 8:17pm

>I'd point them in the direction of my older brother (NOT! but for other

reason that his being a >Wiccan).

LOL!

>I'd remind them that their beliefs are their own, but that I don't agree

with them and why. >They'd still be loved whatever their choice, and I'd let
them know that as well.

>MamaBeth

I know that has to be hard, but my hat's off to you for it.

Kel

Kelly Lenhart

19 Jan 2004, at 8:21pm

>> Christianity to be theologically apart from unschooling

>i think this of all religions.
>l i z a

Why?

I feel that I unschool religion. I model my choice, and am open about it
and include my kids, but I don't in any way expect that it need be their
choice.

I feel, though, that by it's very nature Christianity takes some of the
choice away. What happens if you don't follow the rules is so severe as to
make choosing a different way unreasonable. That's not true of all other
religions.

Kelly

liza sabater

19 Jan 2004, at 9:56pm

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 08:21 PM, Kelly Lenhart wrote:

>>> Christianity to be theologically apart from unschooling
>
>> i think this of all religions.
>> l i z a
>
> Why?
>
> I feel that I unschool religion.

Then Kelly, may you consider the probability that one day you may not
need to use the word "religion" to describe what you practice much in
the same way we use stop using words like teaching*, schooling, even
education? When I use the word atheist, it is in the same vein as
unschooling : I am wiping out any possibility of churches and organized
religion. It does not mean though that I do not find "the golden rule"
worthy of using as a compass for living. Actually, I do. But do I use
it because I expect an outcome in 'another life'? Absolutely not. Just
in the same way I do not expect from my children's learning anything
other than living. Theirs is a life to make on their own accord, not
for me to impose upon my prejudices or points of view. I actually find
the Tao Te Ching the most 'unschooling-friendly'
spritual/practical/ethical of all texts and it is very much in accord
with the basic tenets of christianity (Thomas Merton would approve).
But it is not a sacred text; it is not based on a religion or a church.

I actually was a religion studies freak growing up. Loved to read up on
all the saints (Augustine, St Francis, St Theresa de Avila & Fray
Leon). Studied the last two, once again, during my Spanish Literature
graduate studies along with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz and other
mystics. That's how I got to Joseph Campbell and Elaine Pagels
(looooove anything written by them) ... and I can't wait to read the
'Da Vinci Code' (it sounds like something Umberto Eco would have
written, aka 'The Name of the Rose'). Like Campbell would say, they are
all stories, myths we need to live by.

I am not religious but love stories of saints. I love christmas. The
nativity story and the flight to Egypt is one of the best suspense
stories ever written. I just have come to a point in my life that I am
not attached to the meaning of these stories. To me they are not
factual. Is non-attachment to those stories another myth? Maybe. Then
again, non-attachment is a practice, the story "virgin birth" on the
other hand is found across many cultures --just like the story of the
sacrificial lamb and the messiah.

Anyway, I just rambled at the moment ... back to unschooling religion.
I knew BIG changes where happening in my life when, after having Evan,
I was not quite sure I'd dig the idea of baptism. I still had to ask
Mark how he felt about it and he strongly rejected the idea --actually
he was shocked I had asked, having known the kind of alternative
religious studies I had done for years. That was the beginning of the
end of my life as my mother's child. Of course, raising my kids 'sin
escuela' (that's how you say unschooling in spanish), is the straw that
broke the camel's back.

So in this household, our rejection of schooling and religion go hand
in hand with our wish to break with the cycle of pain and suffering
that plagues all of humanity. Do we know 100% what we're doing? No, not
really ---but that's why we are here :)

l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com

*This one goes to Sandra & Pam for a semantics 'quarrel' I had with
them a year ago :)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lenhart

19 Jan 2004, at 11:10pm

>> I feel that I unschool religion.

>Then Kelly, may you consider the probability that one day you may not
>need to use the word "religion" to describe what you practice much in
>the same way we use stop using words like teaching*, schooling, even
>education? When I use the word atheist, it is in the same vein as
>unschooling : I am wiping out any possibility of churches and organized
>religion. It does not mean though that I do not find "the golden rule"
>worthy of using as a compass for living. Actually, I do. But do I use
>it because I expect an outcome in 'another life'? Absolutely not. Just
>in the same way I do not expect from my children's learning anything
>other than living.

I have to laugh. Not at what you are saying but that it ended up getting
said to me.

I'm a witch. A Neo-pagan. I have no idea what comes in the next life, but
I tend to envision it as a Summerland--all is warm, wonderful and safe but
not a boring harp and clouds kind of thing. Think a beautiful late spring
day with a big picnic with all your loved ones.

But hell, who knows? So for me "religion" or as I tend to call it "my pagan
practice" is all about getting along in this world. How to make changes in
myself or my surroundings with the help and guidance of Goddesses who I am
called to.

I practice alone--no church, no organization of others of my faith. My own
practice is fairly "unreligioning" if you will.

In short--I hear ya, sister. And you have addressed one of my big issues
with many religions, Christianity in particular and why I asked some of
these questions in the first place.

Kelly

liza sabater

19 Jan 2004, at 11:22pm

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 11:10 PM, Kelly Lenhart wrote:

> In short--I hear ya, sister. And you have addressed one of my big
> issues
> with many religions, Christianity in particular and why I asked some of
> these questions in the first place.

heh, heh ... funny how those things happen. i say god and
jesusjoseph&mary and other exclamations and/or expletices involving
religious figures. it takes a superhuman effort from my part not to use
them. i mean, i spent about half of my life 'talking to' or about them.
i have a friend that is experienced at saying GROCK at the drop of a
hat. he's a much older atheist. i noticed his lack of use for the G
word. he found it amusing that i had heard the omission. i feel
sometimes like a little kid learning to speak.

l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lenhart

19 Jan 2004, at 11:29pm

>But for me personally, I wouldn't have
>even considered unschooling if it werent' for my faith (which
>happens to be christian). My faith helps me trust in my children
>and the belief that they have been created beautifully in God's
>image and don't need any "fixing" or "teaching" This is 'my' faith
>and 'my' belief.

How do you reconcile that with original sin? I think that's one of my, no I
know it's my biggest issue with Christianity. And it's what Christ's
Martyrdom hangs on, if you will.

I just don't see how you can have this faith that they don't need "fixing"
(and I agree!) and reconcile it with original sin.

I'm not trying to be challenging, I'm honestly asking about something I
don't understand.

Kelly

Kelly Lenhart

19 Jan 2004, at 11:52pm

>heh, heh ... funny how those things happen. i say god and
>jesusjoseph&mary and other exclamations and/or expletices involving
>religious figures. it takes a superhuman effort from my part not to use
>them. i mean, i spent about half of my life 'talking to' or about them.

I do as well. At this point I think they are almost secular exclamations in
our country. I do tend to say in Goddess name or what in Hades. I do get
looks for it.

>i have a friend that is experienced at saying GROCK at the drop of a
>hat. he's a much older atheist. i noticed his lack of use for the G
>word. he found it amusing that i had heard the omission. i feel
>sometimes like a little kid learning to speak.

Ah, but grock has a specific meaning. It means to understand at a spiritual
level. It's like "I get it" to the cosmic degree.

You'll laugh, but I sometimes use curses from the old TV show Battlestar
Galactica. I have been known to exclaim, "Well, FRACK!"

Kelly