cheryledstrom

I'm a newbie at this, so i hope I do it right! I have to agree with
the other response to Rachel about her child's problem with rage.
ANY child can have a problem distinguishing play from reality, not
just "special" kids. If you are concerned about violent behavior, I
think it would be wise not to instigate "play" fighting. To a young
child, fighting is fighting.

I think most of us have experienced the cartoon phenomena. When our
kids watch violent cartoons, they just naturally display more violent
behavior. I think that would be multiplied exponentially when it's
the parent who s the violent behavior. As s, we have
learned to distinguish the difference between what's real and what's
pretend. A seven year old (again, ANY seven year old), really
hasn't.

Just try keeping his environment as calm and nurturing as possible.
Eventually, by example, he will learn what behavior is acceptable and
what is not.

rachel_foodie

I am hearing you all loud and clear. Just so you know, play fighting
on our end tends to be throwing them onto the couches or bed, which
they love. We don't come out pretending to punch or wrestle. Ben,
on the other hand, will taunt any of us by calling us the craziest
wierdest names...anything...to get us to fight him. When we endulge
him, we give him the upper hand. At least I do, I'll have to pay
attention more to my husband. Unlike some of you, I grew up in a
house where we play fought and it was fun. So, go figure. It's like
tickling. A good friend of mine will not tickle her kids. She was
tickled til almost torture by a weird uncle. We tickle our kids like
crazy, they love it, they call it "tickle fun". But when they say
stop , we do. My friend's kids love it when I or Robert tickle them,
because they never get their mom (and as a result their dad) to do
it. Of course, we make sure it's okay with them (parents)... they
don't care. We are also a very kissy/huggy family. We kiss/hug our
kids like crazy. Well, except for our 14 year old. He's not into it
anymore. :-(

But ixnay on the fighing...I got ya!:-)
Rachel

Andrea

At 03:52 AM 1/19/04 +0000, Cheryledstrom wrote:
>I think most of us have experienced the cartoon phenomena. When our
>kids watch violent cartoons, they just naturally display more violent
>behavior.

I couldn't let this pass. This has not been my experience with my three
boys. That is, if you mean cartoons like Bugs Bunny or Digimon.

To comment on the original post, I think Rachel's son needs an outlet for
his overwhelming energy like karate or even any sport/activity that uses up
a lot of energy. I don't have the same issues as this child, but I do have
a lot of physical (nervous? restless?) energy. I use running as an escape
valve and it makes me a calmer woman :-)

Donna

Marjorie Kirk

-
I think most of us have experienced the cartoon phenomena. When our kids
watch violent cartoons, they just naturally display more violent behavior.
I think that would be multiplied exponentially when it's
the parent who s the violent behavior.

I really can't agree with this! My boys' favorite games currently are
Warlords IV (on the computer),LOTR Return of the King and Soul Caliber II(on
game cube). Their behavior is not any more violent than before, when I used
to only LET them watch PBS and play games like finding Nemo on the game cube
or Jump Start educational games on the computer. I do agree with another
post, however that discussed the rage she felt at being not as strong or
powerful when wrestling with her boyfriend. When I was little, my dad would
sometimes tickle all four of us kids. We all liked it and would all wrestle
around and try to tickle him back. Eventually, he would tickle me too hard,
or just too much, but wouldn't stop when asked. He thought it was funny
when we would tell him to stop, and he would ignore us. I remember getting
really angry that I wasn't strong enough to get away. My lack of power over
the situation was infuriating! Maybe the idea of no more play fighting is a
good one.

Marjorie

Lyle W.

>When our kids
> watch violent cartoons, they just naturally display more >violent behavior.

I don't agree with this at all. It doesn't happen at our house. I think it may make a difference in what someone calls "violent behavior" too. Some people think raising your voice is bordering on violent behavior, and others may not blink an eye at their kid whacking the dog with a plastic baseball bat. I think there are a lot of different levels of "violence".

>Eventually, he would tickle me too hard,
> or just too much, but wouldn't stop when asked. He thought it >was funny
> when we would tell him to stop, and he would ignore us.

My wife does this! She just keeps going and going and going until one of the kids ends up angry. She always thinks it's funny too, unless she's the one that ends up getting hurt or angry.

>Maybe the idea of no more play fighting is a
> good one.

That seems way too extreme to me. No more play fighting? At all? That's going from one end of the spectrum to the other. Surely somewhere near the middle there's a nice, comfortable place where everyone can be happy.

Lyle

***Always remember, Lead By Example***

--
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rachel_foodie

> That seems way too extreme to me. No more play fighting? At all?
That's going from one end of the spectrum to the other. Surely
somewhere near the middle there's a nice, comfortable place where
everyone can be happy.
>

Lyle,

Gosh I hope so! What is difficult for some to get, and I'm cool with
that, is that Ben doesn't get hurt like other people. He loves to be
punched and kicked. Not really hard but harder than most. According
to the "experts" this is called proprioceptive input. He loves being
sat on, squooshed in a ball, etc... It's joint compression he
craves. So, he loves to playfight. I do think, that maybe some of
these folks may be onto something in the no initiating the fights.
My husband should maybe just throw him around and pretend to not see
him on the couch and sit on him instead. Ben really is funny. If I
flip him onto his tummy and press on the small of his back with
almost all my weight, til he's practically smooshed into the bed he
says, "Uh, that feels so good!" This is that sensory stuff.

I need to find more non inciting to violence ways of giving Ben this
input.

Rachel

[email protected]

At 03:52 AM 1/19/04 +0000, Cheryledstrom wrote:
>I think most of us have experienced the cartoon phenomena. When our
>kids watch violent cartoons, they just naturally display more violent
>behavior.

I don't know about cartoons that is not really an issue I have problems with
but both DH and I do notice a rise is the agression level here after a week or
so of some of the more violent playstation games, they sometimes just get
misplaced for a while and we are back to normal. Others may have a different
experience but I have seen it happen enough here to know it's not my imagination.
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marjorie Kirk

>Maybe the idea of no more play fighting is a good one.

That seems way too extreme to me. No more play fighting? At all? That's
going from one end of the spectrum to the other. Surely somewhere near the
middle there's a nice, comfortable place where everyone can be happy.

Lyle

You're right, Lyle. Maybe it should have said "No more play fighting until
you can come up with a plan to stop when it starts to get out of hand..."

Which reminds me...When my oldest was 6 or 7 he would sometimes get very
angry, very suddenly, sometimes seemingly with little provocation. I had to
stay nearby when he was playing in group situations, which were especially
hard for him, so that I could intervene if I saw him about to lose it. We
came up with a plan that that I could say a "code word" whenever I saw the
signs of a meltdown and he would freeze and start taking deep breaths. For
a week or two we practiced. When he was playing or doing something low-key
I would say the code word and he would freeze. Then, we started using it
when he had play dates or was playing at the park. I still watched him, but
could do it at a distance. It really worked. On more than one occasion he
would be going for his brother, fists clenched, angry look, etc. From
across the room or yard I could yell "snowbee!" and he would freeze and
start to breathe. He realized that if he could stop and breathe for just a
few seconds he would be able to get a grip on himself and realize that there
were options other than fighting.

Marjorie

Fetteroll

on 1/19/04 8:36 AM, Lyle W. at unschoolingdad@... wrote:

> My wife does this! She just keeps going and going and going until one of the
> kids ends up angry. She always thinks it's funny too, unless she's the one
> that ends up getting hurt or angry.

It *is* a hard concept to get that tickling may not be as fun for the
tickled as it seems. All that laughing feedback is confusing! But being
tickled is like being forced to laugh. It's really a powerless and upsetting
situation.

I asked my daughter if she wants to be tickled and she says never ever. It's
hard not to! But we don't.

We also use the signal word "Done" when something's gone on long enough.
(Don't know why we didn't just pick Stop!)

Might be some suggestions for your wife.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 1/19/04 8:54 AM, BonKnit@... at BonKnit@... wrote:

> they sometimes just get
> misplaced for a while and we are back to normal.

So what you're saying is that if your kids don't like your behavior that's
it's okay for them to hide what's causing the behavior and then lie about
knowing where it is.

That's the solution to that problem you're modeling for them.

Surely you'd want them to choose a more mature way of informing you that
something you were doing was bothering them, and a better way of working the
situation out.

> Others may have a different
> experience but I have seen it happen enough here to know it's not my
> imagination.

If it's behavior that's causing destruction or hurt to others, then it's
because they lack the skills to know what to do with internal feelings. And
that's something many adults have a hard time with! Especially if the way
parents handled it essentially told them to stuff down their feelings and
behave.

How about talking to them? Talk about what's going on inside of them. Ask
them what they can do instead. It won't be an easy fix but it will be a
useful lifetime skill.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/19/2004 8:03:07 AM Central Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> I asked my daughter if she wants to be tickled and she says never ever.
> It's
> hard not to! But we don't.
>

I am very ticklish and hate being tickled, I would rather someone hit me than
tickle me, I find it painful even though I may be laughing.
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/19/2004 8:11:05 AM Central Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> How about talking to them? Talk about what's going on inside of them. Ask
> them what they can do instead. It won't be an easy fix but it will be a
> useful lifetime skill

In the future I will, they have not played it for a while so it has not been
an issue but I am sure due to my change in perception which has caused a major
change in our life we can sit down and talk about it to work it out.

I have noticed that my 16yro is handling his anger a lot better since we
started talking more about things that bug him, especially the relationships
between the kids. I realized a while ago that even if I disagreed with his take on
my relationship with his siblings it was still how he perceived it. His
feeling was that I gave more attention to the 12yro, I feel I do my best to give to
both and to give what each one needs so it may not look the same. I realize I
also was falling into more of a protector role with the younger one which
always made the older one look bad. That was a bad trap with really no easy way
out.

One day it hit me that we had been hitting this brick wall a while and I was
really not happy with it, I really did not want to see the older one so hurt.
I found that by just validating his feelings we were able to finally talk
about what was going on. It never occurred to me before that what I had been
doing was telling him he shouldn't feel that way, I hate when people do that to
me. If it's the way I feel. it's the way I feel. Just by treating his feelings
with compassion I learned so much and we have grown even closer. I don't think
it's something we mean to do we just get stuck. Now I am trying to look at any
behavior in our lives where we just keep doing the same thing over and over
yet not getting good results. That is my cue that this is a behavior that does
not work for us and we need to figure out something different to try.
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/19/2004 7:03:10 AM Mountain Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
> My wife does this! She just keeps going and going and going until one of
the
> kids ends up angry. She always thinks it's funny too, unless she's the one
> that ends up getting hurt or angry.

-=-It *is* a hard concept to get that tickling may not be as fun for the
tickled as it seems. All that laughing feedback is confusing! But being
tickled is like being forced to laugh. It's really a powerless and upsetting
situation.-=-
========

My mom tickled for meanness, and if I finally screamed or cried, she was mean
to me for not being a good sport. She would pop my toes against my will too.
Sometimes my only opportunity for physical play with her was for me to get
hurt. I've seen other adults interact with kids that way too, and usually
it's men. I'm glad to be around so many people who can say it's not a good way
to be.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/19/04 8:58:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rachel_foodie@... writes:

> >That seems way too extreme to me. No more play fighting? At all?
> That's going from one end of the spectrum to the other. Surely
> somewhere near the middle there's a nice, comfortable place where
> everyone can be happy.
>

I know that my youngest is an active child but instead of engaging in
wrestling or something like that, Jackson will pretend to be a monster and follow
them around the house while they try to run and hide etc. Also the boys, I have
two, will both get on his back and try to hang on while he walks around the
family room. They also like to be tossed on the bed.
Just a couple of things we do with our active one.
Pam G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wife2Vegman

--- rachel_foodie <rachel_foodie@...> wrote:
>
> I need to find more non inciting to violence ways of
> giving Ben this
> input.
>
> Rachel
>
>


What about lots of nice tight hugging?

Sitting together on the couch all snuggled up so you
can give him a squeeze now and then?

A mattress on the floor so he can jump up and down as
much as he likes?



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/19/04 10:28:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, Genant2@...
writes:

> In a message dated 1/19/04 8:58:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> rachel_foodie@... writes:
>
> >>That seems way too extreme to me. No more play fighting? At all?
> >That's going from one end of the spectrum to the other. Surely
> >somewhere near the middle there's a nice, comfortable place where
> >everyone can be happy.
>

I apologize. I forgot to delete the header for this quote. Rachel did not
say this. I try to make a point of deleting the headers but this one slipped
by.
Pam G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Roberts

I've not seen it either with my children, and I always thought that would be the case. Since totally lifting control...I'm not seeing an increase in rough behavior, nor..as was my bigger worry..."witchcraft" type play from some of the shows Sarah likes to watch.

MamaBeth

Andrea <andrea@...> wrote:
At 03:52 AM 1/19/04 +0000, Cheryledstrom wrote:
>I think most of us have experienced the cartoon phenomena. When our
>kids watch violent cartoons, they just naturally display more violent
>behavior.

I couldn't let this pass. This has not been my experience with my three
boys. That is, if you mean cartoons like Bugs Bunny or Digimon.

To comment on the original post, I think Rachel's son needs an outlet for
his overwhelming energy like karate or even any sport/activity that uses up
a lot of energy. I don't have the same issues as this child, but I do have
a lot of physical (nervous? restless?) energy. I use running as an escape
valve and it makes me a calmer woman :-)

Donna



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Jan 19, 2004, at 5:54 AM, BonKnit@... wrote:

> I don't know about cartoons that is not really an issue I have
> problems with
> but both DH and I do notice a rise is the agression level here after a
> week or
> so of some of the more violent playstation games, they sometimes just
> get
> misplaced for a while and we are back to normal.

Do you think it is possible that it isn't the content of the games but
that they're playing them a lot and not getting enough active energetic
physical play?

There are people who need a lot of physical activity to "burn off" or
else it comes out in emotional outbursts or physical aggression. My
oldest daughter is like this - she's a much calmer and more centered
person when she's getting enough exercise, but when she's not, she can
be explosively angry. ALL three kids need enough physical activity or
they get bickery (I don't think that's a word, but anybody with more
than one kid undoubtedly knows what I mean <G>).

-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)

pam sorooshian

On Jan 19, 2004, at 5:51 AM, rachel_foodie wrote:

> hat is difficult for some to get, and I'm cool with
> that, is that Ben doesn't get hurt like other people. He loves to be
> punched and kicked. Not really hard but harder than most. According
> to the "experts" this is called proprioceptive input. He loves being
> sat on, squooshed in a ball, etc... It's joint compression he
> craves.

Well gosh - how about some gymnastics for the little guy, then. I bet
he would absolutely LOVE tumbling, for example.

-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/19/2004 9:03:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
<<We also use the signal word "Done" when something's gone on long enough.
(Don't know why we didn't just pick Stop!)>>


In our house, when somebody says "Stop" you stop. Right then. Period. We've
had this rule for a long time, and it goes for guests as well as family
members.

My 11yo ds has a similar rule with his neighborhood friends. He likes to
play fight, but he doesn't like to fight (many of them do.) Now if anyone says
stop they stop. No questions asked and no teasing anyone about being a wimp.
It seem to work well here.

--Jacqueline


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/19/2004 10:56:50 AM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:


> Do you think it is possible that it isn't the content of the games but
> that they're playing them a lot and not getting enough active energetic
> physical play?
>
> There are people who need a lot of physical activity to "burn off" or
> else it comes out in emotional outbursts or physical aggression

YES!! I thought about that just a bit ago, they had sat there playing the
same game for hours on end, sometimes four of my sons at once would be at it
taking turns. It is an edge I've seen erupt too many times.

It's funny this was mentioned because I just told DH last night as we sat
freezing at the ski lodge that I thought for now snowboarding is the best thing
for our 16yro, he absolutely loves it and is teaching it this year. My 12yro
does not seem to need to go as often but I think the older one would go everyday
if I could take him. As it is I am making about 4 trips a week. I really
think he NEEDS to burn this energy or it drives him crazy.

This is another one of those things I took the limit off of, I used to think
the drive too long to make more than once or at the most twice a week (40
minutes each way) Now we just pick up and go even for just a few hours. (I prefer
just a few hours) He has told me how much he is improving going several times
a week and I remembered talking to parents back when the kids were little and
we lived at the local pool. They could not figure out why their kids did not
learn to swim well. I mentioned to them that coming to the pool more often
might help. They would come for "lessons" and leave, like the lessons alone were
the answer. My kids who swam well hated the lessons but lived at the pool.

I think physical activity is really underrated in kids lives and I have
always thought that teen boys really needed LOTS of physical activity. Not trying
to slight teen girls, I've just never had any. I feel so sad to think of how
kids have to sit in school all day.
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/19/2004 7:00:09 AM Mountain Standard Time,
BonKnit@... writes:
-=-. . .they sometimes just get
misplaced for a while and we are back to normal-=-


I think a parent lying to a child is worse than any video game.

Years ago someone on a homeschooling board said that when her kids wanted to
watch videos and she didn't want them to, she would unplug the TV, but then
put their video in and try to turn it on, but say "Oh, I guess it's not working."

That was presented as a reasonable recommendation for other parents.

Unschooling requires an honest relationship, and a close trusting
relationship between parents and children, and pretending something is lost or broken
when it isn't isn't going to help unschooling in any way.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

TreeGoddess

Rachel,

I did too and it was great fun. We do this with our kids now too. :)
When I suggested (since you asked the list for suggestions ;') that
you NOT play fight with your son it was (based on your description)
just too much for him to handle. It didn't sound fair to get him so
riled up that someone had to physically help him to calm himself back
down. It didn't sound like he could handle that kind of excitement
and wasn't sure where to draw the line between playing and wailing on
you. Just more calm and comfy for the whole family if y'all didn't
play fight with him. That's all I was suggesting. :)

-Tracy-

On Jan 19, 2004, at 12:15 AM, rachel_foodie wrote:

> Unlike some of you, I grew up in a house where we play fought and it
> was fun. So, go figure.