Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What do you say to people that justdont GET IT?
Danielle Conger
Joyce wrote:
Your friend is feeling uncomfortable with your decisions. But it isn't your obligation to justify your decisions to her. It isn't your obligation to educate her. Her hostile questioning -- eg, saying in various ways that you can't possibly be right -- is saying you do owe her an explanation because you're obviously not operating on all cylinders to care so little about your child.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been thinking about this thread, and while I completely understand everyone's responses, I just wanted to leave open the possibility that this friend could come around to a more unschooling friendly perspective. I know it must get *really* old hearing the "can'ts" but isn't that a necessary step in a way?
Sometimes when people are confronted with ideas that are so radically different from everything that society and their own experience tells them is *right," all they can see at first is the cant's. I was really open to unschooling from the beginning, but I still went through the whole "but how do you..." stage. And, chances are pretty good that I'll hit some more of those along the way, which is why I'm grateful to have found a group of more experience unschoolers.
When a friend of mine first introduced TCS to me, I tried to keep a really open mind. I borrowed her book and read through it, listened to her, but I still could only see the exceptions. At this early stage, I could only see all the reasons why it wouldn't work or all the extreme cases where I wouldn't be able to apply it in my family. It wasn't that I was invalidating her choice or making myself feel better by thinking her choice was wrong. I simply could not make the leap without taking the time to completely think it through, and thankfully, she was patient with me. Each time I would run into her, I would ask her more questions about it, and instead of dismissing me, or drilling me into the ground, she would answer them. After a while, I found myself reading more about it on the internet and asking her how she dealt with specific dilemmas. She could tell that I'd been reading and that my questions were now about specific concerns instead of wild exaggerations as to why it wouldn't work, and she went into even more detail about her difficulties--probably because I was no longer putting her on the defensive with my position. Hearing how she specifically handled her own concerns was very enlightening to me; it let me see that one didn't have to buy into TCS wholesale or live it perfectly. It let me see TCS more as goal for which we could strive than as a rigid philosophy, and that made it seem like a really useful tool to me.
So, while I don't think unschoolers should be out there proselytising or anything, maybe being positive and planting seeds is a better tact? Better for whom, I suppose would be the question. Better for the kids whose lives we might potentially improve rather than the mothers who are grilling us? As for anyone without children, well, to heck with them! <eg>
Just a thought from someone who hasn't dealt with negative people for years and years and who remembers what it's like to be on the other side.
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your friend is feeling uncomfortable with your decisions. But it isn't your obligation to justify your decisions to her. It isn't your obligation to educate her. Her hostile questioning -- eg, saying in various ways that you can't possibly be right -- is saying you do owe her an explanation because you're obviously not operating on all cylinders to care so little about your child.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been thinking about this thread, and while I completely understand everyone's responses, I just wanted to leave open the possibility that this friend could come around to a more unschooling friendly perspective. I know it must get *really* old hearing the "can'ts" but isn't that a necessary step in a way?
Sometimes when people are confronted with ideas that are so radically different from everything that society and their own experience tells them is *right," all they can see at first is the cant's. I was really open to unschooling from the beginning, but I still went through the whole "but how do you..." stage. And, chances are pretty good that I'll hit some more of those along the way, which is why I'm grateful to have found a group of more experience unschoolers.
When a friend of mine first introduced TCS to me, I tried to keep a really open mind. I borrowed her book and read through it, listened to her, but I still could only see the exceptions. At this early stage, I could only see all the reasons why it wouldn't work or all the extreme cases where I wouldn't be able to apply it in my family. It wasn't that I was invalidating her choice or making myself feel better by thinking her choice was wrong. I simply could not make the leap without taking the time to completely think it through, and thankfully, she was patient with me. Each time I would run into her, I would ask her more questions about it, and instead of dismissing me, or drilling me into the ground, she would answer them. After a while, I found myself reading more about it on the internet and asking her how she dealt with specific dilemmas. She could tell that I'd been reading and that my questions were now about specific concerns instead of wild exaggerations as to why it wouldn't work, and she went into even more detail about her difficulties--probably because I was no longer putting her on the defensive with my position. Hearing how she specifically handled her own concerns was very enlightening to me; it let me see that one didn't have to buy into TCS wholesale or live it perfectly. It let me see TCS more as goal for which we could strive than as a rigid philosophy, and that made it seem like a really useful tool to me.
So, while I don't think unschoolers should be out there proselytising or anything, maybe being positive and planting seeds is a better tact? Better for whom, I suppose would be the question. Better for the kids whose lives we might potentially improve rather than the mothers who are grilling us? As for anyone without children, well, to heck with them! <eg>
Just a thought from someone who hasn't dealt with negative people for years and years and who remembers what it's like to be on the other side.
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
What she said! <g>
Not that it would fit all questioners or all unschoolers, but assuming
that some of us were up for it some of the time, what kinds of responses or
tack (if any) might do more than just shut people up or down? I don't know if
this is even possible to do intentionally, or how to do it if it is, but I
would want to if I could -- for the very reason danielle gave, in hopes of making
things better for some child somewhere.
Btw, I think lots of the specific responses Joyce and Sandra already
posted would be helpful, depending on the situation.
danielle.conger@... writes:
Not that it would fit all questioners or all unschoolers, but assuming
that some of us were up for it some of the time, what kinds of responses or
tack (if any) might do more than just shut people up or down? I don't know if
this is even possible to do intentionally, or how to do it if it is, but I
would want to if I could -- for the very reason danielle gave, in hopes of making
things better for some child somewhere.
Btw, I think lots of the specific responses Joyce and Sandra already
posted would be helpful, depending on the situation.
danielle.conger@... writes:
> So, while I don't think unschoolers should be out there proselytising or[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> anything, maybe being positive and planting seeds is a better tact? Better for
> whom, I suppose would be the question. Better for the kids whose lives we
> might potentially improve rather than the mothers who are grilling us? As for
> anyone without children, well, to heck with them! <eg>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/12/04 3:32:10 PM, danielle.conger@... writes:
<< Better for the kids whose lives we might potentially improve rather than
the mothers who are grilling us? >>
Yes, if there's a chance to improve a kid's life, I'm in.
But sometimes people just don't want information, they just want to
criticize. In those cases, I just try to disarm them and drop it. They don't have to
learn everything at once (couldn't anyway), so sometimes all they need to
learn the first day is that they have something to learn.
Sandra
<< Better for the kids whose lives we might potentially improve rather than
the mothers who are grilling us? >>
Yes, if there's a chance to improve a kid's life, I'm in.
But sometimes people just don't want information, they just want to
criticize. In those cases, I just try to disarm them and drop it. They don't have to
learn everything at once (couldn't anyway), so sometimes all they need to
learn the first day is that they have something to learn.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 1/12/04 4:23 PM, Danielle Conger at danielle.conger@... wrote:
Actually I was speaking to the feelings that being questioned stirs up. When
we're put on the spot about our beliefs, we often feel we *need* to
enlighten someone. There's a driving force inside us that says we *need* to
make them understand so they can stop thinking bad thoughts about us and our
families and our choices.
But if someone can let go of the emotions questioning stirs up -- not
necessarily not feel the emotions but let the emotions exist, accept them,
but detach ourselves from the control they try to weild over us -- a person
can get to a healthier place.
If someone questions us we can choose to give them information or not
depending on whether it seems a useful use of our time or not. But if we can
accept that their emotions and reactions and mental place aren't ours to
control, we can be more at peace with ourselves. We can be at peace with
doing what we feel is right without taking on the burden of expecting the
world to change for us and because of us. We're releasing the information
for people to use as they will, not expecting a change in anyone in return.
They are where they are for a reason. We can give them the information to
change, but it isn't in our power to change them. It's entirely their choice
to hold onto the place they're in or seek out what they need to get to a new
place.
Joyce
> I've been thinking about this thread, and while I completely understandSorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I can see how it came across that way.
> everyone's responses, I just wanted to leave open the possibility that this
> friend could come around to a more unschooling friendly perspective. I know it
> must get *really* old hearing the "can'ts" but isn't that a necessary step in
> a way?
Actually I was speaking to the feelings that being questioned stirs up. When
we're put on the spot about our beliefs, we often feel we *need* to
enlighten someone. There's a driving force inside us that says we *need* to
make them understand so they can stop thinking bad thoughts about us and our
families and our choices.
But if someone can let go of the emotions questioning stirs up -- not
necessarily not feel the emotions but let the emotions exist, accept them,
but detach ourselves from the control they try to weild over us -- a person
can get to a healthier place.
If someone questions us we can choose to give them information or not
depending on whether it seems a useful use of our time or not. But if we can
accept that their emotions and reactions and mental place aren't ours to
control, we can be more at peace with ourselves. We can be at peace with
doing what we feel is right without taking on the burden of expecting the
world to change for us and because of us. We're releasing the information
for people to use as they will, not expecting a change in anyone in return.
They are where they are for a reason. We can give them the information to
change, but it isn't in our power to change them. It's entirely their choice
to hold onto the place they're in or seek out what they need to get to a new
place.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/04 4:50:50 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<<When
we're put on the spot about our beliefs, we often feel we *need* to
enlighten someone. There's a driving force inside us that says we *need* to
make them understand so they can stop thinking bad thoughts about us and our
families and our choices.>>
<< They are where they are for a reason. We can give them the information to
change, but it isn't in our power to change them. It's entirely their choice
to hold onto the place they're in or seek out what they need to get to a new
place.
said that about your religion or your race?") let the vision into my head of
what if you're at a party or on an e-mail list and someone says "I just don't
like women, I think they're not smart," would you feel it your duty to show them
women are smart?
It might be fun as an exercise in persuasive debate.
If someone said "I think people from New Mexico are uneducated roadr
unner-screwing backwater dolts," I would just say either "I'd like to see YOU catch a
roadrunner," or "Yeah, Whatever; glad to hear you won't be visiting New
Mexico."
There are over six billion people on earth. How's that number?
6,000,000,000 ?
We can afford to let a few live out a life without understanding unschooling.
I don't want to die a month earlier than I would have because I had stomach
problems from worrying about their opinion of me.
Everybody breathe and think of something sweet and special to do for one of
your children today!
Sandra
<<When
we're put on the spot about our beliefs, we often feel we *need* to
enlighten someone. There's a driving force inside us that says we *need* to
make them understand so they can stop thinking bad thoughts about us and our
families and our choices.>>
<< They are where they are for a reason. We can give them the information to
change, but it isn't in our power to change them. It's entirely their choice
to hold onto the place they're in or seek out what they need to get to a new
place.
>>Those two things, combined with something from another post ("What if they
said that about your religion or your race?") let the vision into my head of
what if you're at a party or on an e-mail list and someone says "I just don't
like women, I think they're not smart," would you feel it your duty to show them
women are smart?
It might be fun as an exercise in persuasive debate.
If someone said "I think people from New Mexico are uneducated roadr
unner-screwing backwater dolts," I would just say either "I'd like to see YOU catch a
roadrunner," or "Yeah, Whatever; glad to hear you won't be visiting New
Mexico."
There are over six billion people on earth. How's that number?
6,000,000,000 ?
We can afford to let a few live out a life without understanding unschooling.
I don't want to die a month earlier than I would have because I had stomach
problems from worrying about their opinion of me.
Everybody breathe and think of something sweet and special to do for one of
your children today!
Sandra
Wife2Vegman
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
will have ice cube egg carton bug races in the
kitchen! I bet the 5yo will love it, and probably the
12yo and 14yo will join in after they hear us laughing
hard!
Thanks, Sandra!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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>I just used the last egg in the egg carton. I think I
>
> Everybody breathe and think of something sweet and
> special to do for one of
> your children today!
>
> Sandra
>
will have ice cube egg carton bug races in the
kitchen! I bet the 5yo will love it, and probably the
12yo and 14yo will join in after they hear us laughing
hard!
Thanks, Sandra!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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[email protected]
In a message dated 01/13/2004 11:07:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
the recent comments about people with formal education and credentials,
particularly education courses and degrees.
I think it's a lot easier for any of us to hear offense or prejudice
or unfair generalizations in what someone else says than to construe it in our
own comments. Probably this is most true (and most troublesome) when we're
sure we -- or someone we know and love --didn't mean it that way, so we resent
that anyone would "hear" it that way. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> the vision into my head ofJust FWIW (not to start it up again! <g>) this is how I heard some of
> what if you're at a party or on an e-mail list and someone says "I just
> don't
> like women, I think they're not smart," would you feel it your duty to show
> them
> women are smart?
>
> It might be fun as an exercise in persuasive debate.
>
> If someone said "I think people from New Mexico are uneducated roadr
> unner-screwing backwater dolts," I would just say either "I'd like to see
> YOU catch a
> roadrunner," or "Yeah, Whatever; glad to hear you won't be visiting New
> Mexico."
>
the recent comments about people with formal education and credentials,
particularly education courses and degrees.
I think it's a lot easier for any of us to hear offense or prejudice
or unfair generalizations in what someone else says than to construe it in our
own comments. Probably this is most true (and most troublesome) when we're
sure we -- or someone we know and love --didn't mean it that way, so we resent
that anyone would "hear" it that way. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/2004 6:50:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
<<Actually I was speaking to the feelings that being questioned stirs up. When
we're put on the spot about our beliefs, we often feel we *need* to
enlighten someone. There's a driving force inside us that says we *need* to
make them understand so they can stop thinking bad thoughts about us and our
families and our choices.
But if someone can let go of the emotions questioning stirs up -- not
necessarily not feel the emotions but let the emotions exist, accept them,
but detach ourselves from the control they try to weild over us -- a person
can get to a healthier place.>>
Wow, I never really looked at it this way! I definitely have fallen into the
trap of "needing to make people understand so they will stop thinking bad
thoughts about me and my family." Thanks for showing a different and better
perspective to *negative* questioning.
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
<<Actually I was speaking to the feelings that being questioned stirs up. When
we're put on the spot about our beliefs, we often feel we *need* to
enlighten someone. There's a driving force inside us that says we *need* to
make them understand so they can stop thinking bad thoughts about us and our
families and our choices.
But if someone can let go of the emotions questioning stirs up -- not
necessarily not feel the emotions but let the emotions exist, accept them,
but detach ourselves from the control they try to weild over us -- a person
can get to a healthier place.>>
Wow, I never really looked at it this way! I definitely have fallen into the
trap of "needing to make people understand so they will stop thinking bad
thoughts about me and my family." Thanks for showing a different and better
perspective to *negative* questioning.
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/2004 6:50:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
<<Actually I was speaking to the feelings that being questioned stirs up.
When
we're put on the spot about our beliefs, we often feel we *need* to
enlighten someone. There's a driving force inside us that says we *need* to
make them understand so they can stop thinking bad thoughts about us and our
families and our choices.>>
This is true but it actually doesn't matter what others think of us, the
problem is that we care too much about what others are thinking, it makes us feel,
we feel uncomfortable, ashamed, odd, silly, any number of things. We want
them to understand so we can stop feeling. Maybe if we just go ahead and feel and
let it pass we will become immune to what others think. Not that we become
insensitive but that we quit beating ourselves to death all of the time because
someone else doesn't approve of how we live. We give other people too much
power over us.
I know it's easier said than done but knowing is half the battle.
Laura Buoni
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
<<Actually I was speaking to the feelings that being questioned stirs up.
When
we're put on the spot about our beliefs, we often feel we *need* to
enlighten someone. There's a driving force inside us that says we *need* to
make them understand so they can stop thinking bad thoughts about us and our
families and our choices.>>
This is true but it actually doesn't matter what others think of us, the
problem is that we care too much about what others are thinking, it makes us feel,
we feel uncomfortable, ashamed, odd, silly, any number of things. We want
them to understand so we can stop feeling. Maybe if we just go ahead and feel and
let it pass we will become immune to what others think. Not that we become
insensitive but that we quit beating ourselves to death all of the time because
someone else doesn't approve of how we live. We give other people too much
power over us.
I know it's easier said than done but knowing is half the battle.
Laura Buoni
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyle W.
"This is true but it actually doesn't matter what others think of us, the
problem is that we care too much about what others are thinking, it makes us feel,
we feel uncomfortable, ashamed, odd, silly, any number of things."
Maybe, but it passes. Most people that know me won't talk to me about unschooling anymore, because I make THEM feel uncomfortable, ashamed, odd, silly, and who knows what else. Who cares what else? When someone comes at me with a confrontational attitude, they're gonna get the same in return. I've found that most people can't really carry on their pro-school conversation very long when I start shooting their 'boxed up' belief's full of holes. I don't think a lot of people want to even know there's another way. Unschooling is different, and different isn't part of the box. It's...beyond most people.
Put them on the defense. Most will give up in the first few mintues. (Usually in a big huff, lol.)
Lyle
***Always remember, Lead By Example***
--
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problem is that we care too much about what others are thinking, it makes us feel,
we feel uncomfortable, ashamed, odd, silly, any number of things."
Maybe, but it passes. Most people that know me won't talk to me about unschooling anymore, because I make THEM feel uncomfortable, ashamed, odd, silly, and who knows what else. Who cares what else? When someone comes at me with a confrontational attitude, they're gonna get the same in return. I've found that most people can't really carry on their pro-school conversation very long when I start shooting their 'boxed up' belief's full of holes. I don't think a lot of people want to even know there's another way. Unschooling is different, and different isn't part of the box. It's...beyond most people.
Put them on the defense. Most will give up in the first few mintues. (Usually in a big huff, lol.)
Lyle
***Always remember, Lead By Example***
--
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
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[email protected]
In a message dated 1/14/2004 1:14:44 AM Central Standard Time,
unschoolingdad@... writes:
what you say is so true, the conversation dwindles fast. We are at a great
advantage because we have actually thought about schooling and learning and all of
the trappings. I have yet to run into someone who is willing to sustain a
conversation once they realize I have a clue as to what I am talking about. I don't
always walk away thinking they understand what I'm saying but they sure as
heck make sure they never engage me in that conversation again. That's too bad
too, I am rarely confrontational unless that is what I am given.
Reading all of these posts made me think back to when we first started hsing
5 yrs ago and to how fragile my confidence was. For some reason I felt the
need to tell everyone I knew what we where going to do. I think now it was fear
and I was looking for approval. (In all the wrong places!) I can't tell you how
many times I was devastated by peoples responses, I can remember sitting in
my car after being attacked by an acquaintance and going through the whole
thing in my mind about why we were going to hs. I would repeat that activity for a
while over the next year or so and each time I got stronger.
It feels good to be where I'm at today.
Laura Buoni
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschoolingdad@... writes:
> I've found that most people can't really carry on their pro-schoolI have found my conversations with pro-school people very interesting and
> conversation very long when I start shooting their 'boxed up' belief's full of holes.
> I don't think a lot of people want to even know there's another way.
> Unschooling is different, and different isn't part of the box. It's...beyond most
> people.
>
what you say is so true, the conversation dwindles fast. We are at a great
advantage because we have actually thought about schooling and learning and all of
the trappings. I have yet to run into someone who is willing to sustain a
conversation once they realize I have a clue as to what I am talking about. I don't
always walk away thinking they understand what I'm saying but they sure as
heck make sure they never engage me in that conversation again. That's too bad
too, I am rarely confrontational unless that is what I am given.
Reading all of these posts made me think back to when we first started hsing
5 yrs ago and to how fragile my confidence was. For some reason I felt the
need to tell everyone I knew what we where going to do. I think now it was fear
and I was looking for approval. (In all the wrong places!) I can't tell you how
many times I was devastated by peoples responses, I can remember sitting in
my car after being attacked by an acquaintance and going through the whole
thing in my mind about why we were going to hs. I would repeat that activity for a
while over the next year or so and each time I got stronger.
It feels good to be where I'm at today.
Laura Buoni
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/04 8:33:37 PM, BonKnit@... writes:
<< There's a driving force inside us that says we *need* to
make them understand so they can stop thinking bad thoughts about us and our
families and our choices.>>
<<This is true but it actually doesn't matter what others think of us, the
problem is that we care too much about what others are thinking, it makes us
feel,
we feel uncomfortable, ashamed, odd, silly, any number of things. >>
All through this I've been thinking of some of the times when the person
didn't really know me and I'd probably never see her again (it's usually a her)
and what I could best say next time.
I'm having a fantasy of saying, "Well I really wish you understood it a
little better. It would make your life so much easier not to be baffled by it."
But it's just a fantasy...
Sandra
<< There's a driving force inside us that says we *need* to
make them understand so they can stop thinking bad thoughts about us and our
families and our choices.>>
<<This is true but it actually doesn't matter what others think of us, the
problem is that we care too much about what others are thinking, it makes us
feel,
we feel uncomfortable, ashamed, odd, silly, any number of things. >>
All through this I've been thinking of some of the times when the person
didn't really know me and I'd probably never see her again (it's usually a her)
and what I could best say next time.
I'm having a fantasy of saying, "Well I really wish you understood it a
little better. It would make your life so much easier not to be baffled by it."
But it's just a fantasy...
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>We give other people too much"What you think of me is none of my business." Book title.
>power over us.
Tia