Wendy Carr

A friend of mine wrote this to me:

<I guess I just wonder that if you have no benchmarks or external ways to
measure progress than I'd personally be concerned about whether he was
getting basic academics at an age-appropriate level. Things like math
beyond the basics, fundamentals of English and grammar, vocabulary,
geography, history (US and world) etc etc etc. I mean, what if it doesn't
pan out and at some point, say when he's 14 or 15, he wants (or needs to)
return to school? If it were me, I'd want to be sure that he could at least
go back at a grade somewhat in line with his age. It would be pretty tough
to have to start at 6th grade at that point.

I guess I define "child led" learning differently. To me, it means that if
Chase demonstrates an interest in say, dinosaurs, I would check out some
books from the library on that, take him to the Museum of Science in Boston
and spend extra time those exhibits and maybe find some documentaries on the
topic and build some models of some or maybe incorporate dinosaurs in art
work at home (make some with play doh or draw different ones.) I'd probably
use that interest as a jumping off point to teach him about evolution and
other related areas as well. I see it as encouraging and developing areas
where he shows aptitude and interest, but NOT to the detriment of other
areas of learning. I just worry about a child being limited in academics at
an early age and what impact that has on long term educational prospects -
ie college. It's pretty tough to write a solid entrance essay if you've
never had critical writing work, KWIM? I'm all for encouraging interests,
but I think that there are some areas that may not be "fun" but are
intrinsic to a well-rounded academic education.>

How do I answer her? Several people keep asking me about unschooling and
telling me I am neglecting my son! How can I nicely deal with these people?

Wendy Carr
When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a
thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the beginning
of fairies. - Barrie
Mom to Austyn(8) and Caitlin(5 months)

Proud To Home-school!

_________________________________________________________________
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Dawn Adams

Wendy writes:
>How do I answer her? Several people keep asking me about unschooling and
>telling me I am neglecting my son! How can I nicely deal with these people?

Don't answer her. Hand her a list of websites, books and articles. If she's really as concerned as she seems she can do the reading herself. You've done all the research that lead you to your decision and it has reassured you that this is the right thing for your child. If others care enough about your son to claim neglect, they should certainly care enough to go to the library and take out some books you point them to.
The other thing is, I really suck at explaining unschooling and maybe you do to. :) There are times when I try when it reallly does sound like I'm describing neglect. Explain that to the questioners before you hand them your list of resources they can check.
When people question like this I think of it as a little laziness. If they really want answers instead of just a confrontation, they would do the legwork themselves to find out what they needed to know.

dawn (in NS)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Someone wrote that Wendy could simply "not answer," which I suppose is
one way to deal nicely with inquisitors.

But I took her question to mean she wanted some help to present
unschooling effectively in such conversations, in her own words. I hope to hear
some discussion that takes that approach to her question, because it seems to me
we lucky ones have an obligation to do that in the larger world, whenever we
have good opportunity to get through to someone.

Otherwise things won't change for the better for most families. JJ

Wishbone@... writes:


> Wendy writes:
> >How do I answer her? Several people keep asking me about unschooling and
> >telling me I am neglecting my son! How can I nicely deal with these
> people?
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wife2Vegman

--- jrossedd@... wrote:
> Someone wrote that Wendy could simply "not
> answer," which I suppose is
> one way to deal nicely with inquisitors.

I think that should read inquisitioners.

They had already made up their minds before talking to
her, and spouted off their opinions that she was
neglecting them, and telling her what they would do
instead.

There was no friendly curiosity and desire to really
understand.

> > Wendy writes:
> > >How do I answer her? Several people keep asking
> me about unschooling and
> > >telling me I am neglecting my son! How can I
> nicely deal with these
> > people?
> >


Why do you have to deal nicely with them when they are
talking so condescendingly to you?

A nice question about unschooling would be, "Wendy, I
hear you are unschooling. Wow! How does that work?
Don't you worry about your child not getting into
college?" (or whatever...fill in the blank with the
concern of the week) and then pausing to listen to
Wendy's answer.

Spouting off a tirade about how Wendy's child will
never amount to anything and will end up back in 6th
grade if he ever has to go back to school is not
asking in a friendly, nice way. It is justifying
their own choices by belittling Wendy's. They don't
want to know why unschooling works or how it works.
If they can get Wendy's kids to wear the same chains
their kids do, then they don't have to admit there are
chains at all.

My answer to such people is simply, "We have
researched it carefully and believe this to be the
best educational choice for our children. I am glad
you are satisfied and happy with yours." and then say,
"BUH-BYE!"

If the approach is the nice way, then I give a couple
recent examples of learning taking place, explain a
bit about child-led parent-facilitated learning, and
offer a few book titles and web sites. If they keep
asking, in a nice way, I keep responding. When they
start dismissing what I am saying, I know the
conversation is over and change the subject.



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

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Deborah Lewis

***My answer to such people is simply, "We have
researched it carefully and believe this to be the
best educational choice for our children. I am glad
you are satisfied and happy with yours." ***

When my sister in law was on us regularly I told her I'd done my research
and put a lot of careful consideration into it and asked if she could
understand that - or hadn't she researched the public schools her kids
would be going to? HA! She hadn't. She didn't. She didn't want to.

Now I tell people instead of putting my faith and time and energy into
government statistics, national standards, curriculum developers, school
politics, frustrated teachers and school bullies, I looked at my son,
saw a perfect, learning person and I put my faith and time and energy
into him.

My kid has never had one moment with a bully or one humiliation from a
teacher or one blow to his self esteem from a stupid grade. Neglect
would be letting those things happen to your kid again and again and
calling it necessary and normal.

Maybe Wendy could make some bookmarks with a list of unschooling books
and websites and pass them out with a promise to talk after the
questioner has educated him/herself.<g> Tell them you *really* believe
in self directed learning. <G> <snort>

Deb L

Wife2Vegman

--- Deborah Lewis <ddzimlew@...> wrote:
>
> Maybe Wendy could make some bookmarks with a list of
> unschooling books
> and websites and pass them out with a promise to
> talk after the
> questioner has educated him/herself.<g> Tell them
> you *really* believe
> in self directed learning. <G> <snort>


ACK! ROTFL! You definitely made me spew my coke all
over the monitor with that comment! I love it!

Can I use it? <BEG>



=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
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Fetteroll

on 1/12/04 3:40 AM, Wendy Carr at WendyWCarr@... wrote:

> I guess I just wonder that if you have no benchmarks or external ways to
> measure progress than I'd personally be concerned about whether he was
> getting basic academics at an age-appropriate level.

Unfortunately most people are full of misconceptions about how learning
needs to happen. And they draw reasonable sounding but erroneous conclusions
from those misconceptions.

I like Dawn's answer. Your friend is feeling uncomfortable with your
decisions. But it isn't your obligation to justify your decisions to her. It
isn't your obligation to educate her. Her hostile questioning -- eg, saying
in various ways that you can't possibly be right -- is saying you do owe her
an explanation because you're obviously not operating on all cylinders to
care so little about your child.

Of course saying that sounds hostile ;-)

You could say you'd be happy to answer some of her questions if she can turn
off the assumptions that unschooling can't possibly work. By assuming
unschooling can't work she's saying you're an idiot for blindly believing in
something impossible. You could answer her questions more affectively if she
assumes there is an answer to her question but she just can't conceive of
the answer because she doesn't know enough about how unschooling works.

Here's some answers to her specific questions:

> I mean, what if it doesn't
> pan out and at some point, say when he's 14 or 15, he wants (or needs to)
> return to school?

Natural learning works so kids won't be behind in understanding the broader
concepts as people assume they will be. There may be details they'll need to
fill in but teachers spend several weeks reviewing at the beginning of the
year. And if someone wants to attend school, they're going to be willing to
put in the effort to do what they need to to understand. The catch up work
-- as other unschooling kids who've tried school have found -- is, if any is
even needed, on the order of weeks.

That idea bothers many people because it says all the work they're doing to
keep up isn't necessary. But just because something is disturbing doesn't
mean it isn't true.

> If it were me, I'd want to be sure that he could at least
> go back at a grade somewhat in line with his age. It would be pretty tough
> to have to start at 6th grade at that point.

Spending hours cramming in what schooled kids do to prepare for an event
that probably won't happen -- especially if the preparation only takes a
short amount of time -- is going to be time that's better spent on things he
wants to learn.

> To me, it means that if
> Chase demonstrates an interest in say, dinosaurs, I would check out some
> books from the library on that ...

Unschooling can look like that but the exploration happens at the child's
speed.

The essential difference is that with other forms of learning the impulse
comes from outside, pushing what someone else wants inward.

With unschooling, the impulse comes from the child, drawing *in* what they
want. The unschooling parent's job is to help kids know what's available
that they could be interested in. It's not hands off by any means! A child
can't know they're interested in dinosaurs or evolution unless they stumble
across them in an interesting context! So the unschooling parents job is to
expose kids to the richness of the world. But not to force them to explore
it in any particular way or any particular order.

> I just worry about a child being limited in academics at
> an early age and what impact that has on long term educational prospects -
> ie college.

Which implies that I'm not. It's best to assume there's an answer that you
don't yet understand.

> I'm all for encouraging interests,
> but I think that there are some areas that may not be "fun" but are
> intrinsic to a well-rounded academic education.

Which, again, assumes that I don't care about that. Unschooling works in
ways that most people don't understand. But it does work.

> It's pretty tough to write a solid entrance essay if you've
> never had critical writing work, KWIM?

Which is an assumption most people make. But it is an assumption and a false
one at that.

There *is* an answer. It's impossible to grasp unschooling if someone
assumes that it's impossible.

Writing for real personally meaningful reasons is orders of magnitude easier
than writing something someone doesn't want to write for an audience who
doesn't want the information. (The teacher "wants" the paper but is only
interested in the how well skills are employed, not in the information.)


Here's a more general answer about unschooling:

Most of what we believe we know about how learning must happen comes from
the decisions schools make about education.

But schools don't make the decisions they do based on what's best for
children. They make the decisions they do based on what's best for schools.
And that makes sense. What's best for the schools is what's (seemingly) best
for the children since if the schools can't operate, the children can't
(supposedly) learn.

But schools are also assembly lines. Assembly lines are cheap and efficient.
Most teachers would agree that one-on-one learning or at least very small
groups is best for learning and yet children are taught 30 at a time because
it would cost too much to have one teacher for each child or even each half
dozen children.

Having large class sizes is a huge compromise in what children need to learn
but it's done for practical reasons. What's gained by having schools that
can operate (by not costing too much) seems better than not having schools
at all.

So kids are taught assembly line fashion because it's cost efficient. And
because assembly lines are necessary for schools, schools make the decisions
they do that keep the assembly line functioning smoothly.

*Children* don't need to read independently by 9. *Schools* need children to
read independently by 9. (And what's best for schools is (supposedly) best
for children.) Schools as they are can't effectively help children who can't
read independently by 9 so all children *must* read by 9.

That goes for everything that schools teach. Children don't need biology at
15. Kids will acquire and draw on biological knowledge when they need it.
But to run efficiently schools need to have all children learning biology at
15.

So how can they learn biology and algebra and everything else unless it's
taught to them?

The same way they learned English: as a tool to get what they want. By using
English to get what they want they get better at it as a side effect. And
the beauty is that it's self correcting because the goal is to get something
that works rather than to acquire something that's right.

If we think of how they learned English versus how kids (supposedly) learn a
foreign language in school, which worked better? English is learned
practically effortlessly. But we don't take that learning seriously as real
learning. It seems some magical process that applies only to very young
children learning their native language.

If we assume the only legitimate knowledge is what's in textbooks, and the
only legitimate form it can take is what's in textbooks, then it's going to
be hard to understand unschooling. Few people will be encountering and
solving 2x = 3y = 27 in their daily lives. Few people will absorb the
important factors of the Teapot Dome scandal by living life. (Those who do
need it because of their interests, though, *will* be getting that.)

But textbooks are like the details. And real learning is about building up
an understanding of how the big picture works. Schools hope that kids will
understand the big picture by cramming in the details but if it happens it's
a side effect. But unfortunately schools are handicapped by having to prove
to administrators and parents and the state that learning is happening. So,
despite wanting something better for kids, schools need to concentrate on
the type of learning that can be demonstrated, that is the kind that is
testable. It's hard to test understanding so schools settle for testing what
can be memorized and hope that understanding happens as a side effect.

So kids in school learn the details and might gain an understanding of the
big picture at the same time. But it's hard and often not successful. It's
hard to grasp the concept of what percentage means in a larger context, when
immersed in figuring out 37.2% of 128. But by absorbing the big picture,
building it up slowly of when and why percentages are used in real life
contexts, then the details fit easily into the big picture. And by absorbing
from real life, they aren't picking up negative associations with
percentages. Percentages are just a useful tool to them.

The world is a naturally fascinating place! Kids want to explore it. There
isn't a reason for a child to avoid learning fascinating things. *Unless*
someone gives them the idea that learning is something to be avoided.
*Unless* someone packages up the world into dry textbooks and locks them up
in rooms and makes them memorize it.

Joyce

Deborah Lewis

***Can I use it? <BEG>***

It wouldn't mean anything to the person who wrote to Wendy though. : /
She wrote about academics and never once about self worth or self esteem
or wholeness or joy.

She wrote:
*** benchmarks or external ways to measure progress ***
***whether he was getting basic academics at an age-appropriate level.
***
***use that interest as a jumping off point to teach him ***
***I just worry about a child being limited in academics at an early age
and what impact that has on long term educational prospects***

She's leaving little room in her thinking for real life. A person this
wrapped up in academics will have a hard time understanding a philosophy
of peaceful, joyful learning. It will take more than a conversation or
two.

When people are consumed with measuring progress and age appropriate this
or that and long term educational blah, blah, blah, they're not thinking
about the wholeness of a person's self, only about the potential of a
good education. Maybe there's a far off someday life out there but it's
now for their children.

I have family members like the woman who wrote to Wendy and the thing
that shushed them some was Dylan. When their dire predictions didn't
come true and they got a look at a kid who was smart and bright and kind
and whole they got a little quieter.<g> And I care less now about what
they think than I used to.
Their lives and their kids lives don't look like any kind of perfect
example I should be trying to live up to.

So, neener.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/2004 8:40:24 AM Central Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> *Children* don't need to read independently by 9. *Schools* need children
> to
> read independently by 9. (And what's best for schools is (supposedly) best
> for children.) Schools as they are can't effectively help children who can't
> read independently by 9 so all children *must* read by 9.
>
>

WOW, so true, enlightening to see it framed this way!

<But it's hard and often not successful. It's
hard to grasp the concept of what percentage means in a larger context, when
immersed in figuring out 37.2% of 128. But by absorbing the big picture,
building it up slowly of when and why percentages are used in real life
contexts, then the details fit easily into the big picture. And by absorbing
from real life, they aren't picking up negative associations with
percentages. Percentages are just a useful tool to them.>

This is exactly how it happened with my 12yro. We had a conversation one day
in the car about fractions and percentages in relation to his life, I mean he
was asking questions about something he wanted to buy. We had touched on
fractions here and there but had never discussed percentages. As we talked I only
provided the information he requested, not the answers, then he would sit and
think. This is the kid who will tell me to let him think too if I get too
eager. It was so exciting to witness, it was just like boom, he figured it out and
had the answer. I think that was one of the most exciting days for me, to see
how much learning had happened w/o someone being "taught". That day was a
turning point for me, well, I had already made the turn but after that I breathed
easier, LOL.

Laura Buoni




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sheree

In my sweet, nonarrogant voice, I simply say, "I am so glad to have
this opportunity to enlighten you. We incorporate a constructivist
approach with the experiential learning model. This is sometimes
referred to as "unschooling" due to it's promotion of higher level
thinking skills (which, more often than not, just does not happen in
school). By the way, our nation's 4H program has been doing this
active, hands on approach for many years. Feel free to do a google
search to find the abundant research which indicates how this still
is a preferred approach. Presently, hundreds of colleges are
actively courting such homeschooled students for thier overall
educational excellence, intelligence and creativity."

After their heads stop reeling, they typically shut up and go
away.lol

sheree


> How do I answer her? Several people keep asking me about
unschooling and
> telling me I am neglecting my son! How can I nicely deal with
these people?
>
> Wendy Carr

Wendy Carr

I just wanted to Thank you all for your answers! I am always at a loss on
what to tell people. I normally say that I HOMESCHOOL, but that brings
questions also, and my son doesnt know what to say! They always ask him "How
do you like school/teacher/ect...." I think I am getting a better
understanding of how to deal with these people! Thanks all!

Wendy


>From: "Sheree" <mortgagemoma@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: What do you say to people that just
>dont GET IT?
>Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:56:43 -0000
>


Wendy Carr
When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a
thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the beginning
of fairies. - Barrie
Mom to Austyn(8) and Caitlin(5 months)

Proud To Home-school!

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> I just worry about a child being limited in academics at
>an early age and what impact that has on long term educational prospects -
>ie college. It's pretty tough to write a solid entrance essay if you've
>never had critical writing work, KWIM?

I think I've told the story before here, but you might not have seen it. A
young unschooled woman (age 16) wanted to start at the community college
and was told she'd need to take an English placement exam including an
essay. She had never written and essay in her life, just letters and
journal entries. She wrote a couple of essays and got a local teacher to
critique them. Then she took the test and got 96%.
So you don't have to start writing essays in grade 2 in order to be able to
write college essays.
Tia

[email protected]

This judgment could be right on (though I don't see the point of
trying to determine that either way, from a couple of lines in one post).

For any particular questioners who are indeed hostile and toxic, a
list of ways to blow them off might come in handy. That's fine with me, let's
make a long one! <g>

But I figure the vast majority of adults I encounter in daily life
know little about homeschooling and probably have never even heard of
unschooling. People are largely ignorant about it and haven't given their own educational
assumptions much thought in any case. Not ALL of them will be hostile or
toxic.

So what about how to make the most of it on those occasions when we do
think we have a genuine opportunity to expand someone's understanding -- even
a little -- with our own words? JJ

wifetovegman2002@... writes:


> --- jrossedd@... wrote:
> > Someone wrote that Wendy could simply "not
> > answer," which I suppose is
> > one way to deal nicely with inquisitors.
>
> I think that should read inquisitioners.
>
> They had already made up their minds before talking to
> her, and spouted off their opinions that she was
> neglecting them, and telling her what they would do
> instead.
>
> There was no friendly curiosity and desire to really
> understand.
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/04 2:05:03 AM, WendyWCarr@... writes:

<< I mean, what if it doesn't
pan out and at some point, say when he's 14 or 15, he wants (or needs to)
return to school? If it were me, I'd want to be sure that he could at least
go back at a grade somewhat in line with his age. It would be pretty tough
to have to start at 6th grade at that point. >>

I would say to that that schools will not TAKE a 14 year old in 6th grade,
because school's grades are based on age. And within any 6th or 10th grade
class, there are kids who will "test out" at any grade from 2nd to college.

Oh wait! I just saw Dawn's response that you should just give her resources
so she can look it up herself. That makes more sense. It's not what I
personally usually do, though. I wrestle them into that sputtery frustration where
they know they need to have some facts on THEIR side, not just be spouting
things their teachers have told them about how important school is to their
futures.

That's where that stuff comes from, from things parents and teachers and
relatives said, just kind of in passing, to keep the herd in the chute. "School
is your job" and "Don't drop out" and those little slogans.

Last night we had a ton of kids, and one who's young, like 11 maybe, had
parents come to get him. He's a little yuck and I'm never sorry to see him go
(GUESS!!! NOT, by a far stretch, a homeschooler. His mom gets rid of him as
often as she can, and I'm never happy when my house is his home of the day, but
he comes with an older homeschooled teen and she's in charge of him so I just
occasionally have to negotiate with her). He said "I want to stay!"

It was 6:00 or so on a Sunday. The mom's boyfriend (the only one of the
batch I might keep) said, "You have to go to school tomorrow."

Oh! They all have to be inconvenienced and he has to leave a really good
party because of him. Because of what HE has to do. But it's "have to," so no
option. The whole message, which I surely heard hundreds of times when I was
a kid (because you have to go to school tomorrow) did, for the first time,
gag me. I wanted to just leave the room or maybe magically wire them all up
for visceral and brain-wave response to the statement.

Not worth it.

I would say "I'm rambling," but no, I'm ranting now. <g>

<<When people question like this I think of it as a little laziness. If they
really want answers instead of just a confrontation, they would do the legwork
themselves to find out what they needed to know.
>>

You could coat it in flattery, sticky-sweet too. You could say "You're
*OBviously* really interested in this, and so I just *Know* you would *LOVE* to
read some of the things that convinced us that school was *so* harmful to people
who then grow up and can't even tell how brainwashed they are." Then look
deep into her eyes and bat your eyelashes, sparkle your eyes, flounce, and march
away like a cartoon character. Then definitely follow up with an e-mail or a
note on paper with a few web articles.

And if you really want to finish her off, check back every couple of days to
see if she's read them yet. If so, give her some more. If not, remind her.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/04 6:17:08 AM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< But I took her question to mean she wanted some help to present
unschooling effectively in such conversations, in her own words. I hope to
hear
some discussion that takes that approach to her question, because it seems to
me
we lucky ones have an obligation to do that in the larger world, whenever we
have good opportunity to get through to someone. >>

People can only be themselves, though, and some are mousy conversationalists,
and NOT debaters.

I've done pretty well by just asking the person a couple of questions back.
If I know them, it's easy.

Few of them really want to understand unschooling. They're making
conversation, or they're being belligerent, or they're trying to prove their superiority
in some small social way. It's friendlier, in some cases (like you're both
at someone else's party) to do an aikido thing and lift them up with the force
of their own question, set them back down and both laugh about it.

If they're intrigued enough to ask you again later, you have the advantage.
If they figure out you really DO have some basis for your belief, they might
just leave it.

It's hard enough to explain it clearly to people who have kids who aren't in
school who are looking for something to do today. It can sometimes be a waste
to even begin to explain it to people who have no children, or whose children
are on the scholarship track and can't decide between a Rhodes scholarship or
the air force academy. That was my friend Kim and me last Friday at lunch at
Chow's Chinese Restaurant on Juan Tabo. Kim knows my kids and thinks they
are lovely exceptions to the rule. So we just have a nice lunch and I coo about
her kids' school successes. Doesn't bother me.

But when someone DOES care, you get to the core of their own thinking by
talking about their own experiences. Ask them what they would change about their
schooling, maybe, if they could go back. Or what their worst experiences
were.

What I do when I think someone cares is I ask if they know about the open
classroom theories of the early 1970's. If they say yes, I say "it's like that,
but with the whole world as a classroom." If they say no, I say "School
reformers knew clearly THEN that kids will only learn what they discover and find
interesting." Then I gauge their reaction. If it's forward/positive, I go
on. If it's "Der? Huh?" (not verbally, but in posture and eyes), I give
examples, or discuss what they do/know and how they might have learned the best
parts of it.

If someone was "a good student" and I know it, I ask them how many times they
remember being told again what the subject and predicate of the sentence
were, and by then they're already laughing with recognition of the fact that
school is a whole lot of repetition.

Sometimes I tell them that when I was teaching I realized that for just about
anything I was about to tell the kids, ten already knew and ten didn't care,
so I'd aim my comments at those ten in the middle.

But these answers are about how I respond, and I don't think canned answers
will really cut it, because people need to have enough inside them to carry on
a short or long conversation without needing more script. So for someone who
isn't confident enough to do that, I think passing on websites or names of
books is a good way to acknowledge the other person's curiosity (or over-honor
it elaborately, if they don't really care) and to get gracefully out of the
conversation.

Another argument I've used sometimes is to say that if my kids decide later
they want to go to school, schools will still be there, but if they decide
later they wish their kids had NOT gone to school it will be too late.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/04 6:31:39 AM, wifetovegman2002@... writes:

<< They don't
want to know why unschooling works or how it works.
If they can get Wendy's kids to wear the same chains
their kids do, then they don't have to admit there are
chains at all. >>

I think that's true.

It's why so many women were FURIOUS with other women in "women's liberation"
days. They were where they were because they had no choice and were going to
make the best of it. They really, truly did NOT want anyone shining a light
on it and saying "You have a choice."

I still remember the intensity of some of the "anti-women's-lib" rhetoric.
Much more intense than anything abut homeschooling, but a good parallel, I
think.

And that movement made a HUGE difference in people's lives. It made a
difference even in the life of any woman who did what could have been considered a
50's-esque thing and got pregnant, got married, had kids and stayed home with
them. Or went to college to find a guy, got married, had kids and stayed
home. Because if you've done it in the past twenty years, you did it because
you chose to. You could choose to because you had choices.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/04 7:03:09 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< When my sister in law was on us regularly I told her I'd done my research
and put a lot of careful consideration into it and asked if she could
understand that - or hadn't she researched the public schools her kids
would be going to? HA! She hadn't. She didn't. She didn't want to. >>

Awesome.

<<Now I tell people instead of putting my faith and time and energy into
government statistics, national standards, curriculum developers, school
politics, frustrated teachers and school bullies, I looked at my son,
saw a perfect, learning person and I put my faith and time and energy
into him. >>

Sweet.

<<My kid has never had one moment with a bully or one humiliation from a
teacher or one blow to his self esteem from a stupid grade. Neglect
would be letting those things happen to your kid again and again and
calling it necessary and normal. >>

Brilliant.

I forwarded that post to my husband, who had called a bit ago for help
answering someone's pokey question on a Norse History list where the value of school
came up!<g> They might be in the category of "don't care," but Keith
figures a couple of them will care.

Sandra

[email protected]

<<If it were me, I'd want to be sure that he could at least
go back at a grade somewhat in line with his age. It would be pretty tough
to have to start at 6th grade at that point.>>



I know a lot of highschoolers who have a very limited vocabulary, know little
about grammar (I don't think they teach it here), and know no math beyond an
elementary level if that. I regularly tutor kids who in ninth grade don't
know the multiplication tables and more horribly don't understand how they work!
A friend of my daughters who is an honors student at her school can't write a
coherent paragraph without a lot of help.

Perhaps more to the point though is that you can learn a lot of the stuff
your friend pointed out very fairly quickly if you want to. I don't want my
children spending their time being forced to do things now because of what might
happen at some future time. We'll deal with the future when it gets here, and
if there are things my children need to learn for a future school situation
that they choose, I'll be happy to help them however they want me to.

--Jacqueline


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/04 9:57:28 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< So, neener. >>

Amen.

In the past few years if people ask me those lame questions, I say "Have you
met my kids?" If the answer is yes, they very sheepishly back down. If the
answer is no, I state a place and time they could easily see them in action.
Either some of Kirby's work schedule, or they could go to the dojo this day or
that and watch him teach, or I tell them to go by and watch the Ork Ball game
on Sunday, or whatever's next and good.

Few really do that (some have) but either way, I've chucked a gauntlet they
assume had some power behind it.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/2004 11:57:24 AM Central Standard Time,
leschke@... writes:


> So you don't have to start writing essays in grade 2 in order to be able to
>
> write college essays.
>

LOL, My 16yro is doing American school by his choice, he hates the whole
thing and I have told him it's ok if he wants to stop but no he must continue at
least a while longer. Anyhow he was working on one of the English tests when he
stopped and asked me "What grade do they do this stuff in", I replied, "every
one from the time kids can write (according to schools) and up, over and
over".

Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> It's pretty tough to write a solid entrance essay if you've
> never had critical writing work, KWIM?
>
> How do I answer her?

I'd be tempted to respond to this part and say: No, I don't know what you
mean here. This has not been my experience nor the experience of the
unschooled teens and young adults that I have read about and met. If fact,
my life experiences have shown the exact opposite of what you say to be
true.

-Lisa in AZ