What would you do?
Julie Solich
Two days before Christmas we came home from shopping to see a dugite
disappear behind a bench in my husband's workshop/smoking room. This room is
an enclosed area at the side of the house. We shut the kids and dog in the
house and two hours later (after much searching and mess making) we found
the snake. It was about a metre long, and angry!
Last year I ripped up the kids chore charts and relaxed a bit about the
state of the house. The result has been a rodent problem and lots of area in
the kid's rooms for spiders and snakes. I've spent the last week
decluttering and keeping the floors as clear and clean as possible.
My dilemma is that I cannot keep the house as clean and tidy as it needs to
be without help and still have time to spend with the kids. My husband is
really worried about one of the kids being bitten and wants the house to be
tidy but doesn't want that responsibility to fall solely on me. He helps
when he can but is pretty tired at the end of the day.
Any ideas for 'enlisting' the kids help and getting them to be responsible
for some of their mess without returning to chore charts and punishments?
What would you do in this situation?
Thanks
Julie (who's not sure what to put at the end of my name as I'm Julie. S
too!) Maybe I should be Jules. It's what most of my family call me.
disappear behind a bench in my husband's workshop/smoking room. This room is
an enclosed area at the side of the house. We shut the kids and dog in the
house and two hours later (after much searching and mess making) we found
the snake. It was about a metre long, and angry!
Last year I ripped up the kids chore charts and relaxed a bit about the
state of the house. The result has been a rodent problem and lots of area in
the kid's rooms for spiders and snakes. I've spent the last week
decluttering and keeping the floors as clear and clean as possible.
My dilemma is that I cannot keep the house as clean and tidy as it needs to
be without help and still have time to spend with the kids. My husband is
really worried about one of the kids being bitten and wants the house to be
tidy but doesn't want that responsibility to fall solely on me. He helps
when he can but is pretty tired at the end of the day.
Any ideas for 'enlisting' the kids help and getting them to be responsible
for some of their mess without returning to chore charts and punishments?
What would you do in this situation?
Thanks
Julie (who's not sure what to put at the end of my name as I'm Julie. S
too!) Maybe I should be Jules. It's what most of my family call me.
TreeGoddess
I don't know how you could get the kids to voluntarily help, but maybe
you could just get a ferret to kill the snakes? ;)
-Tracy-
you could just get a ferret to kill the snakes? ;)
-Tracy-
Julie Solich
>> Julie, I didn't know what a dugite was until you said snake and I'minterested. What type of snake is that? >>
It's a highly venomous snake also known as the western brown snake, pretty
common in Western Australia.
>> We are having the same problem with the relaxing on the kids and choresand it is overwhelming. I finally had to say I'm sorry I can't do it myself
and would you mind doing this or that. It is working, and I also pay them
when they can. >>
This is encouraging Stepheny. I'll just keep asking (nicely) and reminding
them I need help and hope it works for me. Bringing money into the equation
might increase productivity too! <g>
I'm trying really hard to find a balance between caution and fear. I don't
think it's fair to our fears onto our kids but I do want them to be mindful
of the dangers.
Jules, breathing....
Andrea
At 01:57 PM 1/9/04 +0800, Jules wrote:
a perfect example. If don't keep the house clean, we may have poisonous
snakes and other undesirables coming in. unfortunately this is one of the
more dangerous ones.
My first saucy thought was "move to Nova Scotia." More helpfully, how old
are your kids? Have you talked to them about the problem and the results?
I'm pretty sure my 11 and 8 year olds would do more housework if it meant
keeping poisonous animals out of the house.
If the biggest problem is food attracting the vermin, then it might be easy
to confine food to certain areas that can be cleaned up frequently.
On the other hand, if you have just recently torn up the chore charts etc.,
your kids may think anything you do to get them to help out is coercion.
You may have to do a lot of talking.
Donna
>Any ideas for 'enlisting' the kids help and getting them to be responsibleAfter the discussion of natural consequences a few days ago, this would be
>for some of their mess without returning to chore charts and punishments?
>What would you do in this situation?
a perfect example. If don't keep the house clean, we may have poisonous
snakes and other undesirables coming in. unfortunately this is one of the
more dangerous ones.
My first saucy thought was "move to Nova Scotia." More helpfully, how old
are your kids? Have you talked to them about the problem and the results?
I'm pretty sure my 11 and 8 year olds would do more housework if it meant
keeping poisonous animals out of the house.
If the biggest problem is food attracting the vermin, then it might be easy
to confine food to certain areas that can be cleaned up frequently.
On the other hand, if you have just recently torn up the chore charts etc.,
your kids may think anything you do to get them to help out is coercion.
You may have to do a lot of talking.
Donna
Stepheny
Two days before Christmas we came home from shopping to see a dugite
disappear behind a bench in my husband's workshop/smoking room. This room is
Julie, I didn't know what a dugite was until you said snake and I'm interested. What type of snake is that?
We are having the same problem with the relaxing on the kids and chores and it is overwhelming. I finally had to say I'm sorry I can't do it myself and would you mind doing this or that. It is working, and I also pay them when they can. I told them they would be responsible for their own clothes, meaning getting them to the hamper to be washed, helping with folding and drying. The oldest on is 14 and she will go straight to the sink and wash dishes with no problem at all, and most things she is like that with. When I read you had a dugite I knew I didn't want one of those what ever they were, LOL. I have started putting things away in bins, and when they ask for something I tell them it is in storage and they can go look if they want it. I also made a list of things to do today and couragesly asked one of the kids to write something down on it and then cross it off because I had done it, ya know like Frog and Toad... got a big smile for that one. I'll be praying. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
disappear behind a bench in my husband's workshop/smoking room. This room is
Julie, I didn't know what a dugite was until you said snake and I'm interested. What type of snake is that?
We are having the same problem with the relaxing on the kids and chores and it is overwhelming. I finally had to say I'm sorry I can't do it myself and would you mind doing this or that. It is working, and I also pay them when they can. I told them they would be responsible for their own clothes, meaning getting them to the hamper to be washed, helping with folding and drying. The oldest on is 14 and she will go straight to the sink and wash dishes with no problem at all, and most things she is like that with. When I read you had a dugite I knew I didn't want one of those what ever they were, LOL. I have started putting things away in bins, and when they ask for something I tell them it is in storage and they can go look if they want it. I also made a list of things to do today and couragesly asked one of the kids to write something down on it and then cross it off because I had done it, ya know like Frog and Toad... got a big smile for that one. I'll be praying. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
LOL Luddite popped into my mind when I read it, so I likened dugite to the rhyming word and kept picturing some Walt Whitman looking transient who had renounced holes ("dug") or something, crouching behind the bench. It was quite a humorous image!
Julie, I know what you mean, though not to your extent! Southern Maryland, where we live, is _very_ wet and humid, and we have bugs like you might find in the rain forest! <g> Seriously, we have wolf spiders here that rival tarantulas--they are the largest spiders I have ever seen outside of captivity (and I DON'T like spiders!). I also became an "expert" on cockroaches this spring because I was finding some in my house. Turns out that they were, thankfully, wood cockroaches that don't infest homes but often find their way into homes during wet springs, and we had the wettest year on record last year. Our family room is the basement of our split level home, so this is where the bugs come in.
I pretty much just say to the kids that we need to pick up and vacuum fairly regularly if we don't want bugs. They've found them often enough that they understand that bugs and spiders will hide under their dress-up clothes, etc. They don't much like that! My kids are really very good about helping to do a quick pick up so that I can run a vacuum as long as I am there helping them. I don't have them put everything back in its "proper" place (once in a while for sanity we do a real clean up), and they know they can put whatever it is they are playing with or working on up on a piece of furniture while I vacuum. My youngest says constantly, "you done now mama?" and as soon as I am, they all jump down and run like wild things, shouting "yeah, we can run, we can run!" because the floor is not all cluttered with sharp little toys. So there are upsides to picking up, and it doesn't have to be whole sale or stressful or anything. With everyone working together it takes maybe 15 minutes to pick up and vacuum--not too big a deal.
I think the key is to enlist their help by explaining your reasons and fears. They might have some really good ideas too that you hadn't thought of. I'm a big fan of presenting problems or issues as something for the whole family to deal with--the process is very productive and everyone owns the outcome. Dh and I might talk about things first by ourselves, depending upon the magnitude of the situation, but before we do anything we present to the kids and get their input.
--danielle
Stephany wrote:
Julie, I didn't know what a dugite was until you said snake and I'm interested. What type of snake is that?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie, I know what you mean, though not to your extent! Southern Maryland, where we live, is _very_ wet and humid, and we have bugs like you might find in the rain forest! <g> Seriously, we have wolf spiders here that rival tarantulas--they are the largest spiders I have ever seen outside of captivity (and I DON'T like spiders!). I also became an "expert" on cockroaches this spring because I was finding some in my house. Turns out that they were, thankfully, wood cockroaches that don't infest homes but often find their way into homes during wet springs, and we had the wettest year on record last year. Our family room is the basement of our split level home, so this is where the bugs come in.
I pretty much just say to the kids that we need to pick up and vacuum fairly regularly if we don't want bugs. They've found them often enough that they understand that bugs and spiders will hide under their dress-up clothes, etc. They don't much like that! My kids are really very good about helping to do a quick pick up so that I can run a vacuum as long as I am there helping them. I don't have them put everything back in its "proper" place (once in a while for sanity we do a real clean up), and they know they can put whatever it is they are playing with or working on up on a piece of furniture while I vacuum. My youngest says constantly, "you done now mama?" and as soon as I am, they all jump down and run like wild things, shouting "yeah, we can run, we can run!" because the floor is not all cluttered with sharp little toys. So there are upsides to picking up, and it doesn't have to be whole sale or stressful or anything. With everyone working together it takes maybe 15 minutes to pick up and vacuum--not too big a deal.
I think the key is to enlist their help by explaining your reasons and fears. They might have some really good ideas too that you hadn't thought of. I'm a big fan of presenting problems or issues as something for the whole family to deal with--the process is very productive and everyone owns the outcome. Dh and I might talk about things first by ourselves, depending upon the magnitude of the situation, but before we do anything we present to the kids and get their input.
--danielle
Stephany wrote:
Julie, I didn't know what a dugite was until you said snake and I'm interested. What type of snake is that?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stepheny
Jules, I was also thinking about snakes coming in the house this morning on my way taking my son to work. I had a green snake of a pretty good size just slither into the house one day as I was standing there with the door open. My son started saying snake, snake! and I didn't realize it until it was wrapping itself around my feet. Ugh! That feeling never goes away for sure. I don't know why he came in, sometimes they just do make it in there and I'm sure they don't want to be. It could have been just a mistake on his part. I know that my laundry room makes me nervous sometimes as I have a doggie door and I know that only doggies don't use them. There was a woman that had been bitten on the wrist because a poisonous snake had decided to sit in her dirty laundry that was on the floor in front of the washer. So I will be cautious out there and did buy hampers for the clothes rather than have them bunched up on the floor. I will be happy if the kids can get their clothes in them, also that they would sort it on the way there too ROFL, I can dream. Here in FL we can bring home nasty roaches just by coming in with groceries as they hide in bags and boxes so I have someone spray every month and step up on getting rid of them when I see them. We also had some rodents not to long ago, I don't think they came in because we are messy, but once I noticed them I stepped up on keeping kitchen clean and trash out until we (kitties and me) got rid of them. Just my thoughts. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/2004 6:34:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
stephc62@... writes:
Here in FL we can bring home nasty roaches
oh boy there goes my thought of moving to FL, we were looking into it but now
I know I couldn't do it just not my cup of tea. Ugh I think you guys are so
brave.
Heidi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stephc62@... writes:
Here in FL we can bring home nasty roaches
oh boy there goes my thought of moving to FL, we were looking into it but now
I know I couldn't do it just not my cup of tea. Ugh I think you guys are so
brave.
Heidi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/8/04 10:53:28 PM, mjsolich@... writes:
<< Any ideas for 'enlisting' the kids help and getting them to be responsible
for some of their mess without returning to chore charts and punishments?
What would you do in this situation? >>
I'd get all the kids to help in each room, have good music on, say everything
needs to be moved or picked up every-so-often so you don't get mice and
spiders.
If they're going out or going to bed and there's stuff where it can't safely
be, ask them to pick it up before they go to bed. Help them if you're there.
You're talking about an immediate need and a reality, not just kids needing
to "do chores" because their parents and grandparents did "and look how good
they turned out" kind of removed-from-reality stuff. It's not just kids being
made to keep a house looking as though the family has servants to clean it
because the mom wants to impress a friend or relative they hardly know.
Sandra
<< Any ideas for 'enlisting' the kids help and getting them to be responsible
for some of their mess without returning to chore charts and punishments?
What would you do in this situation? >>
I'd get all the kids to help in each room, have good music on, say everything
needs to be moved or picked up every-so-often so you don't get mice and
spiders.
If they're going out or going to bed and there's stuff where it can't safely
be, ask them to pick it up before they go to bed. Help them if you're there.
You're talking about an immediate need and a reality, not just kids needing
to "do chores" because their parents and grandparents did "and look how good
they turned out" kind of removed-from-reality stuff. It's not just kids being
made to keep a house looking as though the family has servants to clean it
because the mom wants to impress a friend or relative they hardly know.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/04 3:37:19 AM, stephc62@... writes:
<< I finally had to say I'm sorry I can't do it myself and would you mind
doing this or that. >>
I don't think anyone ever recommended telling kids "Don't worry, I'll do it
all myself," so sometimes when I hear the problems being caused I'm curious as
to how it was presented.
But just as with school, if kids were "made to work" and it was considered
something to be avoided, their first instinct will be to avoid it, and maybe the
more pressure and work there was when it was required, the longer and more
intensely they'll want to avoid it.
But not cleaning all the time isn't the opposite of making a horrible mess on
purpose.
If kids (not the person whose post is quoted up above, but general kids in
general) are celebrating freedom by MAKING messes, that's not productive at all,
and I wouldn't claim "unschooling" if kids are purposely pouring sodas out in
the van or anything LIKE that.
Of all the issues we've ever discussed here, I think the housework and chores
is the most marginal of all to unschooling, and I'm a little nervous at the
effect. Maybe something Joyce alluded to is true, that there are more advanced
levels of unschooling.
If a family shows up here who's still doing school at home and wants to
unschool, maybe the talk about food and chores and bedtimes is just going to
overwhelm and confuse them. Because there CAN be unschooling in a family where kids
also have chores and bedtimes and have to clean their plates. I don't
personally think it will have the depth or benefit, ultimately, as a house where
the children's preferences and freedoms have high priority, but it could still
absolutely be, in homeschooling terms, unschooling.
If a family quits all their routines and the kids go crazy eating candy and
watching TV because they never got to before, but the parents still don't "get"
unschooling and so are still pressing "schoolwork," what a mess THAT is going
to be. It's not just carts before horses, it might be climbing into the
cart and hopping up and down before they're even sure what a horse is.
I hope that's not happening.
I don't guess this is a problem particular to unschooling, though. Some
people dress like skaters without getting wheels of any sort. I'm just concerned
for the effect on confused families, and the reputation of unschooling, and
the clarity and peace of the list.
Sandra
<< I finally had to say I'm sorry I can't do it myself and would you mind
doing this or that. >>
I don't think anyone ever recommended telling kids "Don't worry, I'll do it
all myself," so sometimes when I hear the problems being caused I'm curious as
to how it was presented.
But just as with school, if kids were "made to work" and it was considered
something to be avoided, their first instinct will be to avoid it, and maybe the
more pressure and work there was when it was required, the longer and more
intensely they'll want to avoid it.
But not cleaning all the time isn't the opposite of making a horrible mess on
purpose.
If kids (not the person whose post is quoted up above, but general kids in
general) are celebrating freedom by MAKING messes, that's not productive at all,
and I wouldn't claim "unschooling" if kids are purposely pouring sodas out in
the van or anything LIKE that.
Of all the issues we've ever discussed here, I think the housework and chores
is the most marginal of all to unschooling, and I'm a little nervous at the
effect. Maybe something Joyce alluded to is true, that there are more advanced
levels of unschooling.
If a family shows up here who's still doing school at home and wants to
unschool, maybe the talk about food and chores and bedtimes is just going to
overwhelm and confuse them. Because there CAN be unschooling in a family where kids
also have chores and bedtimes and have to clean their plates. I don't
personally think it will have the depth or benefit, ultimately, as a house where
the children's preferences and freedoms have high priority, but it could still
absolutely be, in homeschooling terms, unschooling.
If a family quits all their routines and the kids go crazy eating candy and
watching TV because they never got to before, but the parents still don't "get"
unschooling and so are still pressing "schoolwork," what a mess THAT is going
to be. It's not just carts before horses, it might be climbing into the
cart and hopping up and down before they're even sure what a horse is.
I hope that's not happening.
I don't guess this is a problem particular to unschooling, though. Some
people dress like skaters without getting wheels of any sort. I'm just concerned
for the effect on confused families, and the reputation of unschooling, and
the clarity and peace of the list.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/04 4:40:35 AM, andrea@... writes:
<< On the other hand, if you have just recently torn up the chore charts
etc.,
your kids may think anything you do to get them to help out is coercion. >>
But logic and honesty aren't unfair.
My mom, who had grown up in Texas, used to tell us if we ate in our rooms,
the rooms would be full of ants and mice.
Maybe in Texas, but not in northern New Mexico.
And here's what to do about ants: Feed them at their nest, and they won't
hike into the house for food. (Someone taught me that about camping. As soon
as you camp, if there's an ant bed nearby, give them more than a weekend's
worth of food. They'll be ecstatically busy at their own mound and leave you
entirely alone.)
So if what's being said is honest and true, I don't think it's coercion, it's
persuasion, and persuasion is a good skill to have.
Sandra
<< On the other hand, if you have just recently torn up the chore charts
etc.,
your kids may think anything you do to get them to help out is coercion. >>
But logic and honesty aren't unfair.
My mom, who had grown up in Texas, used to tell us if we ate in our rooms,
the rooms would be full of ants and mice.
Maybe in Texas, but not in northern New Mexico.
And here's what to do about ants: Feed them at their nest, and they won't
hike into the house for food. (Someone taught me that about camping. As soon
as you camp, if there's an ant bed nearby, give them more than a weekend's
worth of food. They'll be ecstatically busy at their own mound and leave you
entirely alone.)
So if what's being said is honest and true, I don't think it's coercion, it's
persuasion, and persuasion is a good skill to have.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/04 7:34:45 AM, stephc62@... writes:
<< We also had some rodents not to long ago, I don't think they came in
because we are messy >>
We had a family of mice under our dishwasher which is UPSTAIRS. That was
icky, but it was because it was a place the cats couldn't begin to get to. Our
cats are usually enough, but this took traps and I wasn't thrilled.
The kids' rooms have not yet had any vermin problems of any sort, but it does
absolutely help that we live in a desert. Oh, Marty had a mouse once--saw
it run by, but we put a which caught nothing in his room but one in the
closet of the sewing room. I don't want to leave all of the spaces cat-accessible
because they can make their own kinds of messes.
Sandra
<< We also had some rodents not to long ago, I don't think they came in
because we are messy >>
We had a family of mice under our dishwasher which is UPSTAIRS. That was
icky, but it was because it was a place the cats couldn't begin to get to. Our
cats are usually enough, but this took traps and I wasn't thrilled.
The kids' rooms have not yet had any vermin problems of any sort, but it does
absolutely help that we live in a desert. Oh, Marty had a mouse once--saw
it run by, but we put a which caught nothing in his room but one in the
closet of the sewing room. I don't want to leave all of the spaces cat-accessible
because they can make their own kinds of messes.
Sandra
J. Stauffer
<<<My husband is
We've been doing it this way for several months. I clean one room a day
and the kids have to be responsible for cleaning up after themselves (my
youngest is 4). They take their toys upstairs, put their dishes on the
counter, etc..
I do clean the kids' rooms about once per week. I ask if they want to help
me, usually somebody does. But I make sure I clean at least one room per
day or it builds to a point of absolute chaos.
Julie S.
> really worried about one of the kids being bitten and wants the house tobe
> tidy but doesn't want that responsibility to fall solely on me.>>>I can only tell you what works here as we also have the rodent problem.
We've been doing it this way for several months. I clean one room a day
and the kids have to be responsible for cleaning up after themselves (my
youngest is 4). They take their toys upstairs, put their dishes on the
counter, etc..
I do clean the kids' rooms about once per week. I ask if they want to help
me, usually somebody does. But I make sure I clean at least one room per
day or it builds to a point of absolute chaos.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Solich" <mjsolich@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:57 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What would you do?
> Two days before Christmas we came home from shopping to see a dugite
> disappear behind a bench in my husband's workshop/smoking room. This room
is
> an enclosed area at the side of the house. We shut the kids and dog in the
> house and two hours later (after much searching and mess making) we found
> the snake. It was about a metre long, and angry!
>
> Last year I ripped up the kids chore charts and relaxed a bit about the
> state of the house. The result has been a rodent problem and lots of area
in
> the kid's rooms for spiders and snakes. I've spent the last week
> decluttering and keeping the floors as clear and clean as possible.
>
> My dilemma is that I cannot keep the house as clean and tidy as it needs
to
> be without help and still have time to spend with the kids. He helps
> when he can but is pretty tired at the end of the day.
>
> Any ideas for 'enlisting' the kids help and getting them to be responsible
> for some of their mess without returning to chore charts and punishments?
> What would you do in this situation?
>
> Thanks
> Julie (who's not sure what to put at the end of my name as I'm Julie. S
> too!) Maybe I should be Jules. It's what most of my family call me.
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/2004 11:31:18 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
thinking due to life experience? I am at the tail end of raising 6 boys, the
oldest will be 31 next month, all 4 of the older boys went through the ps system
with the exception of 1 year we hs'd with 5 of them. We came to hsing as a
lifestyle later in the game, our youngest 2 were about 7 and 10 when we pulled them
out of school. That was 5 years ago and it has been a gradual journey to
unschooling, I knew about unschooling and felt that was the path we were heading
towards but allowed myself the time I needed to let go. We always take summer
off and just never went back in the fall, it just happened, I never even
thought about it until recently.
However, I find that I am able to grasp a whole lot of what I am reading here
and have been reading in the archives and that in very many ways we are
already living it. I think this is because first of all I think a lot, maybe too
much, LOL but also that having lived both sides, that of having kids in school
and now out of school and having just lived through raising 4 kids to adulthood
already I am better able to look back and see where so many things I worried
about or thought I had to do something about was really never in my control
anyhow. (It was an illusion)
I have learned along the way that often if I just shut up things go OK and I
don't have to do anything about it. That was a hard lesson to learn but one
that is priceless. For example yesterday my 16yros came to me and told me he had
given it a lot of thought and he wanted to return to school next year. A few
years ago I would have been devastated but for some reason that has changed.
We talked about it a little, I mean I really don't want him to go but he had
some good reasons and so I asked him what grade he wanted to be in, he answered
11th. So, I told him what he would need to do to be able to enter that grade
in our school district and he set off to start.
My 12yros and I had some errands to run and were gone most of the day. When
we got back I asked the 16yro how it was going and he told me upon further
thought he won't be going, after all he can drive soon and make friends and find
girls that way. So many things have been working out this way if I just let it
go.
I don't want this to end up sounding ooey gooey I just wanted to share my
thought.
Laura in Ohio
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Of all the issues we've ever discussed here, I think the housework andCould it be that some people are able to make leaps and bounds in their
> chores
> is the most marginal of all to unschooling, and I'm a little nervous at the
> effect. Maybe something Joyce alluded to is true, that there are more
> advanced
> levels of unschooling.
>
thinking due to life experience? I am at the tail end of raising 6 boys, the
oldest will be 31 next month, all 4 of the older boys went through the ps system
with the exception of 1 year we hs'd with 5 of them. We came to hsing as a
lifestyle later in the game, our youngest 2 were about 7 and 10 when we pulled them
out of school. That was 5 years ago and it has been a gradual journey to
unschooling, I knew about unschooling and felt that was the path we were heading
towards but allowed myself the time I needed to let go. We always take summer
off and just never went back in the fall, it just happened, I never even
thought about it until recently.
However, I find that I am able to grasp a whole lot of what I am reading here
and have been reading in the archives and that in very many ways we are
already living it. I think this is because first of all I think a lot, maybe too
much, LOL but also that having lived both sides, that of having kids in school
and now out of school and having just lived through raising 4 kids to adulthood
already I am better able to look back and see where so many things I worried
about or thought I had to do something about was really never in my control
anyhow. (It was an illusion)
I have learned along the way that often if I just shut up things go OK and I
don't have to do anything about it. That was a hard lesson to learn but one
that is priceless. For example yesterday my 16yros came to me and told me he had
given it a lot of thought and he wanted to return to school next year. A few
years ago I would have been devastated but for some reason that has changed.
We talked about it a little, I mean I really don't want him to go but he had
some good reasons and so I asked him what grade he wanted to be in, he answered
11th. So, I told him what he would need to do to be able to enter that grade
in our school district and he set off to start.
My 12yros and I had some errands to run and were gone most of the day. When
we got back I asked the 16yro how it was going and he told me upon further
thought he won't be going, after all he can drive soon and make friends and find
girls that way. So many things have been working out this way if I just let it
go.
I don't want this to end up sounding ooey gooey I just wanted to share my
thought.
Laura in Ohio
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/2004 12:10:23 PM Central Standard Time,
hmsclmyboy@... writes:
same thing. I have wanted to move south forever but snow versus bugs, hmmm, I'll
take snow, LOL
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hmsclmyboy@... writes:
> In a message dated 1/9/2004 6:34:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,That is funny because I am sitting here freezing in Ohio and thinking the
> stephc62@... writes:
> Here in FL we can bring home nasty roaches
> oh boy there goes my thought of moving to FL, we were looking into it but
> now
> I know I couldn't do it just not my cup of tea. Ugh I think you guys are so
>
> brave.
>
same thing. I have wanted to move south forever but snow versus bugs, hmmm, I'll
take snow, LOL
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stepheny
<< I finally had to say I'm sorry I can't do it myself and would you mind
doing this or that. >>
This is a particular attitude I had myself, not something someone told me. I think. The process of deschooling may be where this came in because at one time chores were a part of our school... I hate writing this because it is like so stupid now. LOL. So deschooling would involve getting rid of chore charts etc. and then after a while things start getting put back where they were but in a different perspective. That is the way I'm seeing it now. After going to the Live and Learn Conference, reading lots about unschooling I gradually saw that "Hey they are not doing absolutely nothing" and it just kind of dawned on me. They are doing more in a different light, everything is learning, interaction with the kids not the I am the teacher you are the student." I actually know some parents that have a separate school room to go to..... and some kids have to call their parents Mrs so and so because that makes it more official. I could never do that and have always been called undisciplined and the kids would be better off in school etc. So I basically keep to myself, this group and a friendly relaxed homeschool support group. I got the kids alot of games for Christmas, and I just love how things are going here in our home. I have one interested in Shakespeare and poetry, another that loves penpaling and such, and their interests are just jumping by leaps and bounds. I thank everyone for their input on this list. Stepheny
I don't think anyone ever recommended telling kids "Don't worry, I'll do it
all myself," so sometimes when I hear the problems being caused I'm curious as
to how it was presented.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
doing this or that. >>
This is a particular attitude I had myself, not something someone told me. I think. The process of deschooling may be where this came in because at one time chores were a part of our school... I hate writing this because it is like so stupid now. LOL. So deschooling would involve getting rid of chore charts etc. and then after a while things start getting put back where they were but in a different perspective. That is the way I'm seeing it now. After going to the Live and Learn Conference, reading lots about unschooling I gradually saw that "Hey they are not doing absolutely nothing" and it just kind of dawned on me. They are doing more in a different light, everything is learning, interaction with the kids not the I am the teacher you are the student." I actually know some parents that have a separate school room to go to..... and some kids have to call their parents Mrs so and so because that makes it more official. I could never do that and have always been called undisciplined and the kids would be better off in school etc. So I basically keep to myself, this group and a friendly relaxed homeschool support group. I got the kids alot of games for Christmas, and I just love how things are going here in our home. I have one interested in Shakespeare and poetry, another that loves penpaling and such, and their interests are just jumping by leaps and bounds. I thank everyone for their input on this list. Stepheny
I don't think anyone ever recommended telling kids "Don't worry, I'll do it
all myself," so sometimes when I hear the problems being caused I'm curious as
to how it was presented.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stepheny
. I don't want to leave all of the spaces cat-accessible
because they can make their own kinds of messes.
Right my point exactly. And so I had to help them catch them. And you are right pretty darn icky. One of them was too big for the cat but he got it anyway and then let it go to play with it! Well we got em and that doesn't mean their cousins wouldn't move in. Here in Fl with the too wet one min, too dry the next creatures are running from/too water constantly. Living in mobile homes allows them access to places I don't want them. I stuffed steel wool in a hole under the sink hoping they would eat it or get the message and they just moved it~ Ok enought about all that LOL Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
because they can make their own kinds of messes.
Right my point exactly. And so I had to help them catch them. And you are right pretty darn icky. One of them was too big for the cat but he got it anyway and then let it go to play with it! Well we got em and that doesn't mean their cousins wouldn't move in. Here in Fl with the too wet one min, too dry the next creatures are running from/too water constantly. Living in mobile homes allows them access to places I don't want them. I stuffed steel wool in a hole under the sink hoping they would eat it or get the message and they just moved it~ Ok enought about all that LOL Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<< If kids (not the person whose post is quoted up above, but general kids
in
I think you have a valid point. This is a trap we fell into when we first
released the controls after unschooling for a couple of years. I had been
told over and over that kids would learn to self-regulate on things if I
would just be patient. I thought that meant that I should completely back
off and the kids would stop doing "insane" things. Example: The kids
wouldn't quit jumping on my bed, even though I asked them not to and
explained why (old mattress, old bed, no money for that right now, etc.). I
felt that if I kicked them out of my room, they weren't "self-regulating".
I was regulating them by punishing them by kicking them out of my room when
they jumped on the bed.. And I had been told over and over that punishment
was counter-productive.
It took a while for me to find the difference between punishment and
consequences due to lack of personal responsibility. I finally came to the
principle of "not doing harm" and that has helped me understand where the
line is. But it is, I think, a progession, a maturing into unschooling.
Julie S.
in
> general) are celebrating freedom by MAKING messes, that's not productiveat all,
> and I wouldn't claim "unschooling" if kids are purposely pouring sodas outin
> the van or anything LIKE that.>>>>Sandra,
I think you have a valid point. This is a trap we fell into when we first
released the controls after unschooling for a couple of years. I had been
told over and over that kids would learn to self-regulate on things if I
would just be patient. I thought that meant that I should completely back
off and the kids would stop doing "insane" things. Example: The kids
wouldn't quit jumping on my bed, even though I asked them not to and
explained why (old mattress, old bed, no money for that right now, etc.). I
felt that if I kicked them out of my room, they weren't "self-regulating".
I was regulating them by punishing them by kicking them out of my room when
they jumped on the bed.. And I had been told over and over that punishment
was counter-productive.
It took a while for me to find the difference between punishment and
consequences due to lack of personal responsibility. I finally came to the
principle of "not doing harm" and that has helped me understand where the
line is. But it is, I think, a progession, a maturing into unschooling.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What would you do?
>
> In a message dated 1/9/04 3:37:19 AM, stephc62@... writes:
>
> << I finally had to say I'm sorry I can't do it myself and would you mind
> doing this or that. >>
>
> I don't think anyone ever recommended telling kids "Don't worry, I'll do
it
> all myself," so sometimes when I hear the problems being caused I'm
curious as
> to how it was presented.
>
> But just as with school, if kids were "made to work" and it was considered
> something to be avoided, their first instinct will be to avoid it, and
maybe the
> more pressure and work there was when it was required, the longer and more
> intensely they'll want to avoid it.
>
> But not cleaning all the time isn't the opposite of making a horrible mess
on
> purpose.
>
>>
> Of all the issues we've ever discussed here, I think the housework and
chores
> is the most marginal of all to unschooling, and I'm a little nervous at
the
> effect. Maybe something Joyce alluded to is true, that there are more
advanced
> levels of unschooling.
>
> If a family shows up here who's still doing school at home and wants to
> unschool, maybe the talk about food and chores and bedtimes is just going
to
> overwhelm and confuse them. Because there CAN be unschooling in a family
where kids
> also have chores and bedtimes and have to clean their plates. I don't
> personally think it will have the depth or benefit, ultimately, as a house
where
> the children's preferences and freedoms have high priority, but it could
still
> absolutely be, in homeschooling terms, unschooling.
>
> If a family quits all their routines and the kids go crazy eating candy
and
> watching TV because they never got to before, but the parents still don't
"get"
> unschooling and so are still pressing "schoolwork," what a mess THAT is
going
> to be. It's not just carts before horses, it might be climbing into the
> cart and hopping up and down before they're even sure what a horse is.
>
> I hope that's not happening.
>
> I don't guess this is a problem particular to unschooling, though. Some
> people dress like skaters without getting wheels of any sort. I'm just
concerned
> for the effect on confused families, and the reputation of unschooling,
and
> the clarity and peace of the list.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<If kids (not the person whose post is quoted up above, but general kids
in
I have been thinking about this. I wonder if when people suddenly let loose
of all the controls and aren't sure where that line between punishment and
consequences due to lack of personal responsibility is, if perhaps the kids
start to act out resentments toward the parents.
Kind of how you might treat a bossy older brother who suddenly had no power
over you anymore.....I can see where kids might act out in ways that perhaps
they wouldn't if they had always been raised in freedom and respect.
Julie S.
in
> general) are celebrating freedom by MAKING messes, that's not productiveat all, >>>>>
I have been thinking about this. I wonder if when people suddenly let loose
of all the controls and aren't sure where that line between punishment and
consequences due to lack of personal responsibility is, if perhaps the kids
start to act out resentments toward the parents.
Kind of how you might treat a bossy older brother who suddenly had no power
over you anymore.....I can see where kids might act out in ways that perhaps
they wouldn't if they had always been raised in freedom and respect.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What would you do?
>
> In a message dated 1/9/04 3:37:19 AM, stephc62@... writes:
>
> << I finally had to say I'm sorry I can't do it myself and would you mind
> doing this or that. >>
>
> I don't think anyone ever recommended telling kids "Don't worry, I'll do
it
> all myself," so sometimes when I hear the problems being caused I'm
curious as
> to how it was presented.
>
> But just as with school, if kids were "made to work" and it was considered
> something to be avoided, their first instinct will be to avoid it, and
maybe the
> more pressure and work there was when it was required, the longer and more
> intensely they'll want to avoid it.
>
> But not cleaning all the time isn't the opposite of making a horrible mess
on
> purpose.
>
>> and I wouldn't claim "unschooling" if kids are purposely pouring sodas
out in
> the van or anything LIKE that.
>
> Of all the issues we've ever discussed here, I think the housework and
chores
> is the most marginal of all to unschooling, and I'm a little nervous at
the
> effect. Maybe something Joyce alluded to is true, that there are more
advanced
> levels of unschooling.
>
> If a family shows up here who's still doing school at home and wants to
> unschool, maybe the talk about food and chores and bedtimes is just going
to
> overwhelm and confuse them. Because there CAN be unschooling in a family
where kids
> also have chores and bedtimes and have to clean their plates. I don't
> personally think it will have the depth or benefit, ultimately, as a house
where
> the children's preferences and freedoms have high priority, but it could
still
> absolutely be, in homeschooling terms, unschooling.
>
> If a family quits all their routines and the kids go crazy eating candy
and
> watching TV because they never got to before, but the parents still don't
"get"
> unschooling and so are still pressing "schoolwork," what a mess THAT is
going
> to be. It's not just carts before horses, it might be climbing into the
> cart and hopping up and down before they're even sure what a horse is.
>
> I hope that's not happening.
>
> I don't guess this is a problem particular to unschooling, though. Some
> people dress like skaters without getting wheels of any sort. I'm just
concerned
> for the effect on confused families, and the reputation of unschooling,
and
> the clarity and peace of the list.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Stepheny
oh boy there goes my thought of moving to FL, we were looking into it but now
I know I couldn't do it just not my cup of tea. Ugh I think you guys are so
brave.
Heidi
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
My first encounter with a palmetto bug is so funny now. In the motel I was staying at I heard a rustling in bags I had by the door. I thought it was a mouse at first, and then the darn thing came out and looked at me.... and I said you are no mouse. Well I thought I would be alright, I would just make sure it stayed on the floor and didn't get on me or the kids......but no it climbed the wall. I ran out of the room to tell the manager that there was a creature in my room. He asks me if its a cockroach, Like none I've ever seen! It took him 3 or 4 times hitting it with my ked to kill it. I thought I was cured, and then the giant grasshopper..... 7 years later I was living here. The weather is beautiful, and the kids are amazed at how far I've come. If its in my house, it doesn't belong in here, thats it. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know I couldn't do it just not my cup of tea. Ugh I think you guys are so
brave.
Heidi
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
My first encounter with a palmetto bug is so funny now. In the motel I was staying at I heard a rustling in bags I had by the door. I thought it was a mouse at first, and then the darn thing came out and looked at me.... and I said you are no mouse. Well I thought I would be alright, I would just make sure it stayed on the floor and didn't get on me or the kids......but no it climbed the wall. I ran out of the room to tell the manager that there was a creature in my room. He asks me if its a cockroach, Like none I've ever seen! It took him 3 or 4 times hitting it with my ked to kill it. I thought I was cured, and then the giant grasshopper..... 7 years later I was living here. The weather is beautiful, and the kids are amazed at how far I've come. If its in my house, it doesn't belong in here, thats it. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Erika Nunn
"This is a trap we fell into when we first released the controls after
unschooling for a couple of years. I had been told over and over that kids
would learn to self-regulate on things if I would just be patient. I
thought that meant that I should completely back off and the kids would stop
doing "insane" things."
This is where I am with my 3 and 4 year old. I am unsure of how to let my
children make choices, without them going "insane." Don't get me wrong, it
is not that I never let my children make choices, it is just that I know I
also am too controlling in certain areas. I also do timeouts with my
children, and do not want to do that anymore as I do not think it helps. My
main worry is that my children will just not listen to me anymore if I do
not impose my own consequences.
For example, let's say that my children are having a bath and one is
purposely bothering the other one. Before, I would ask my child what was
wrong, why they were doing that, etc. I would encourage the one being
bothered to ask the other one to stop or see if they could work something
out together. If the behaviour did not stop, I would tell the one doing the
bothering that they would need to stop or I would take them out of the bath.
So this is a parent-delivered consequence, right?
Now if I did not take the child out of the bath, what would I do? It isn't
fair to the child who is trying to play and is continually being bothered.
And if I don't do anything about it, will my children see me as being
somebody they don't need to listen to?
Thank you - I am trying to figure out the right balance for situations such
as these.
Erika :)
Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home.
http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx
unschooling for a couple of years. I had been told over and over that kids
would learn to self-regulate on things if I would just be patient. I
thought that meant that I should completely back off and the kids would stop
doing "insane" things."
This is where I am with my 3 and 4 year old. I am unsure of how to let my
children make choices, without them going "insane." Don't get me wrong, it
is not that I never let my children make choices, it is just that I know I
also am too controlling in certain areas. I also do timeouts with my
children, and do not want to do that anymore as I do not think it helps. My
main worry is that my children will just not listen to me anymore if I do
not impose my own consequences.
For example, let's say that my children are having a bath and one is
purposely bothering the other one. Before, I would ask my child what was
wrong, why they were doing that, etc. I would encourage the one being
bothered to ask the other one to stop or see if they could work something
out together. If the behaviour did not stop, I would tell the one doing the
bothering that they would need to stop or I would take them out of the bath.
So this is a parent-delivered consequence, right?
Now if I did not take the child out of the bath, what would I do? It isn't
fair to the child who is trying to play and is continually being bothered.
And if I don't do anything about it, will my children see me as being
somebody they don't need to listen to?
Thank you - I am trying to figure out the right balance for situations such
as these.
Erika :)
>From: "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What would you do?
>Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:45:38 -0600
>
><<<< If kids (not the person whose post is quoted up above, but general
>kids
>in
> > general) are celebrating freedom by MAKING messes, that's not productive
>at all,
> > and I wouldn't claim "unschooling" if kids are purposely pouring sodas
>out
>in
> > the van or anything LIKE that.>>>>
>
>Sandra,
>
>I think you have a valid point. This is a trap we fell into when we first
>released the controls after unschooling for a couple of years. I had been
>told over and over that kids would learn to self-regulate on things if I
>would just be patient. I thought that meant that I should completely back
>off and the kids would stop doing "insane" things. Example: The kids
>wouldn't quit jumping on my bed, even though I asked them not to and
>explained why (old mattress, old bed, no money for that right now, etc.).
>I
>felt that if I kicked them out of my room, they weren't "self-regulating".
>I was regulating them by punishing them by kicking them out of my room when
>they jumped on the bed.. And I had been told over and over that punishment
>was counter-productive.
>
>It took a while for me to find the difference between punishment and
>consequences due to lack of personal responsibility. I finally came to the
>principle of "not doing harm" and that has helped me understand where the
>line is. But it is, I think, a progession, a maturing into unschooling.
>
>Julie S.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <SandraDodd@...>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 11:16 AM
>Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What would you do?
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 1/9/04 3:37:19 AM, stephc62@... writes:
> >
> > << I finally had to say I'm sorry I can't do it myself and would you
>mind
> > doing this or that. >>
> >
> > I don't think anyone ever recommended telling kids "Don't worry, I'll do
>it
> > all myself," so sometimes when I hear the problems being caused I'm
>curious as
> > to how it was presented.
> >
> > But just as with school, if kids were "made to work" and it was
>considered
>
> > something to be avoided, their first instinct will be to avoid it, and
>maybe the
> > more pressure and work there was when it was required, the longer and
>more
> > intensely they'll want to avoid it.
> >
> > But not cleaning all the time isn't the opposite of making a horrible
>mess
>on
> > purpose.
> >
> >>
> > Of all the issues we've ever discussed here, I think the housework and
>chores
> > is the most marginal of all to unschooling, and I'm a little nervous at
>the
> > effect. Maybe something Joyce alluded to is true, that there are more
>advanced
> > levels of unschooling.
> >
> > If a family shows up here who's still doing school at home and wants to
> > unschool, maybe the talk about food and chores and bedtimes is just
>going
>to
> > overwhelm and confuse them. Because there CAN be unschooling in a
>family
>where kids
> > also have chores and bedtimes and have to clean their plates. I don't
> > personally think it will have the depth or benefit, ultimately, as a
>house
>where
> > the children's preferences and freedoms have high priority, but it could
>still
> > absolutely be, in homeschooling terms, unschooling.
> >
> > If a family quits all their routines and the kids go crazy eating candy
>and
> > watching TV because they never got to before, but the parents still
>don't
>"get"
> > unschooling and so are still pressing "schoolwork," what a mess THAT is
>going
> > to be. It's not just carts before horses, it might be climbing into
>the
> > cart and hopping up and down before they're even sure what a horse is.
> >
> > I hope that's not happening.
> >
> > I don't guess this is a problem particular to unschooling, though. Some
> > people dress like skaters without getting wheels of any sort. I'm just
>concerned
> > for the effect on confused families, and the reputation of unschooling,
>and
> > the clarity and peace of the list.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
>http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home.
http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/2004 12:53:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mjsolich@... writes:
<<Any ideas for 'enlisting' the kids help and getting them to be responsible
for some of their mess without returning to chore charts and punishments?
What would you do in this situation?>>
How about talking to the kids about the problems? They might want to help if
they understood the seriousness of the situation. You can also ask for help
with specific chores and work with a kid or two using this as talking time.
This only works with my kids if I make sure that I'm really asking and respect
if they are busy.
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mjsolich@... writes:
<<Any ideas for 'enlisting' the kids help and getting them to be responsible
for some of their mess without returning to chore charts and punishments?
What would you do in this situation?>>
How about talking to the kids about the problems? They might want to help if
they understood the seriousness of the situation. You can also ask for help
with specific chores and work with a kid or two using this as talking time.
This only works with my kids if I make sure that I'm really asking and respect
if they are busy.
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <hmsclmyboy@...>
problems and in 27 years of living here, I've seen only a couple snakes
alive in the wild. As in my back yard under the bush while I was raking and
disturbing where they were. And let me tell you they were about as big as
pencil if that. No scorpions or anything else creepy at all. What gets me is
the ants at a certain time during the year. They drive me nuts!!!!! But
where am I going to go where there aren't any ants??? Maybe it's where I
live, but we don't have bug problems.
I do find little lizards in my house from time to time but I'm not disturbed
by them at all.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
> In a message dated 1/9/2004 6:34:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,now
> stephc62@... writes:
> Here in FL we can bring home nasty roaches
> oh boy there goes my thought of moving to FL, we were looking into it but
> I know I couldn't do it just not my cup of tea. Ugh I think you guys areso
> brave.I find maybe one roach in my house in a year. I have never had any snake
problems and in 27 years of living here, I've seen only a couple snakes
alive in the wild. As in my back yard under the bush while I was raking and
disturbing where they were. And let me tell you they were about as big as
pencil if that. No scorpions or anything else creepy at all. What gets me is
the ants at a certain time during the year. They drive me nuts!!!!! But
where am I going to go where there aren't any ants??? Maybe it's where I
live, but we don't have bug problems.
I do find little lizards in my house from time to time but I'm not disturbed
by them at all.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[email protected]
-=-Could it be that some people are able to make leaps and bounds in their
thinking due to life experience?-=-
Maybe.
Age? Patience-from-age?
-=-I am better able to look back and see where so many things I worried
about or thought I had to do something about was really never in my control
anyhow. (It was an illusion)
-=-
That could be a good part of it.
So maybe temperament and age can help make it easier.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thinking due to life experience?-=-
Maybe.
Age? Patience-from-age?
-=-I am better able to look back and see where so many things I worried
about or thought I had to do something about was really never in my control
anyhow. (It was an illusion)
-=-
That could be a good part of it.
So maybe temperament and age can help make it easier.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/2004 12:28:03 PM Mountain Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
-=-I was regulating them by punishing them by kicking them out of my room when
they jumped on the bed.. And I had been told over and over that punishment
was counter-productive.-=-
I see punishment as spanking, grounding, withholding privileges or allowance.
If someone jumps on the bed and you want them to stop, saying "Stop jumping
on the bed" isn't punishment. It's you defending your property and the peace
of your room.
-=-It took a while for me to find the difference between punishment and
consequences due to lack of personal responsibility. -=-
So you would see "stop jumping on the bed" as a consequence maybe? (You
didn't give an example, so I'm guessing.)
I just see it as an expression of preference which could get stronger, ro a
physical removal if necessary.
Maybe (still guessing and speculating) if a child was raised with "If you
don't stop I'll spank you" and then the spanking stops, they might celebrate by
doing what they used to avoid to avoid spankings.
If so, though, that proves the point that spanking is a bad way to help
children learn how to act and why.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
-=-I was regulating them by punishing them by kicking them out of my room when
they jumped on the bed.. And I had been told over and over that punishment
was counter-productive.-=-
I see punishment as spanking, grounding, withholding privileges or allowance.
If someone jumps on the bed and you want them to stop, saying "Stop jumping
on the bed" isn't punishment. It's you defending your property and the peace
of your room.
-=-It took a while for me to find the difference between punishment and
consequences due to lack of personal responsibility. -=-
So you would see "stop jumping on the bed" as a consequence maybe? (You
didn't give an example, so I'm guessing.)
I just see it as an expression of preference which could get stronger, ro a
physical removal if necessary.
Maybe (still guessing and speculating) if a child was raised with "If you
don't stop I'll spank you" and then the spanking stops, they might celebrate by
doing what they used to avoid to avoid spankings.
If so, though, that proves the point that spanking is a bad way to help
children learn how to act and why.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Jan 9, 2004, at 1:11 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
Also - sending to room to be alone to "think about it."
-pam
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> I see punishment as spanking, grounding, withholding privileges orAnd yelling/lecturing on and on. Or threatening.
> allowance.
Also - sending to room to be alone to "think about it."
-pam
>National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/2004 1:44:16 PM Mountain Standard Time,
erikanunn@... writes:
-=-For example, let's say that my children are having a bath and one is
purposely bothering the other one. Before, I would ask my child what was
wrong, why they were doing that, etc. I would encourage the one being
bothered to ask the other one to stop or see if they could work something
out together. If the behaviour did not stop, I would tell the one doing the
bothering that they would need to stop or I would take them out of the bath.
So this is a parent-delivered consequence, right?-=-
It's defending your child's right to have peace and safety in the bathtub.
I would say "STOP IT," not even "see if you can work it out, because bathtubs
are slippery and dangerous and it's not a place to be rough.
But can they take separate baths?
If they want to take a bath together and they're not getting along, could you
do scissors/paper/stone to see who finishes first, and who has to get in
later?
-=-And if I don't do anything about it, will my children see me as being
somebody they don't need to listen to?-=-
Worse. The one being picked on will see you as someone who won't defend her
from harm.
But between nothing and punishment are lots of creative, compromise
possibilities. Maybe you could sit in there with them and invole yourself in some kind
of play situation, or just conversation to distract them while they finish.
Holly likes for me to make a fire while she's in the bathtub in winter. So I
make er "a nest," a couple of towels laid out in front of the fire for her to
sit on, and the remote control nearby.
Another bathtub idea is to have music or a story. We put a boombox on the
counter in the bathroom sometimes. Marty always takes showers now, but when he
was a play-in-the-bath guy he had some favorite tapes or CDs to listen to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
erikanunn@... writes:
-=-For example, let's say that my children are having a bath and one is
purposely bothering the other one. Before, I would ask my child what was
wrong, why they were doing that, etc. I would encourage the one being
bothered to ask the other one to stop or see if they could work something
out together. If the behaviour did not stop, I would tell the one doing the
bothering that they would need to stop or I would take them out of the bath.
So this is a parent-delivered consequence, right?-=-
It's defending your child's right to have peace and safety in the bathtub.
I would say "STOP IT," not even "see if you can work it out, because bathtubs
are slippery and dangerous and it's not a place to be rough.
But can they take separate baths?
If they want to take a bath together and they're not getting along, could you
do scissors/paper/stone to see who finishes first, and who has to get in
later?
-=-And if I don't do anything about it, will my children see me as being
somebody they don't need to listen to?-=-
Worse. The one being picked on will see you as someone who won't defend her
from harm.
But between nothing and punishment are lots of creative, compromise
possibilities. Maybe you could sit in there with them and invole yourself in some kind
of play situation, or just conversation to distract them while they finish.
Holly likes for me to make a fire while she's in the bathtub in winter. So I
make er "a nest," a couple of towels laid out in front of the fire for her to
sit on, and the remote control nearby.
Another bathtub idea is to have music or a story. We put a boombox on the
counter in the bathroom sometimes. Marty always takes showers now, but when he
was a play-in-the-bath guy he had some favorite tapes or CDs to listen to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
Well, in my home (6, 5 and 3.5) where they all take tubs and play together all day long, I deal with this issue often. I pretty much handle it the way you've described below, though I try to figure out what "bother" means. If it means my little one is poking, pulling, hitting, taking things away, then he gets removed if he can't be redirected. There is nothing about unschooling that says one person should be allowed to do whatever they want to do, which is, I think, what Sandra was getting at. As a parent, I have an obligation to protect my children, even from each other if need be. Sam's right to extend his fist stops at someone else's body--in this country and in my unschooling home. But it also does not mean that I hit him, send him to his room alone, call him bad names, or any number of other punitive things. Removing from the situation is not punitive, in my mind, if it is done in a firm, but loving way.
But, if "bothering" means that he wants to play too just not by the other's rules, then that's not really bothering in a sense that needs to be stopped, know what I mean? It's an impasse where they need to figure out a solution that can meet everyone's needs. If it's an imaginative game, then the rules need to get renegotiated to include everyone in the game, not just the people who were there first. This isn't a blanket statement, by any means; I can easily imagine scenarios in which the person's rules should be honored. But, this would end up coming out in a renegotiation, I would hope.
For instance, the other day my kids were playing with their Imaginext pirate ship and Julia had her Disney princesses up in the crow's nest. Sam came over to play and began knocking them out with his pirate, which upset Julia. The ship belongs to all of them, so in my view, it's not fair if the girls are always making the rules for the games and the only way Sam can play is to play by their rules. He's not really "bothering" them if he is trying to play in a legitimate but different way. They need to find a way to play that accommodates all of them. Of course, one gets into the quagmire of having to decide what constitutes "legitimate," which is why negotiation and rational exchange is so important.
This is the way it works in my house anyway.
--danielle
Erika wrote:
For example, let's say that my children are having a bath and one is
purposely bothering the other one. Before, I would ask my child what was
wrong, why they were doing that, etc. I would encourage the one being
bothered to ask the other one to stop or see if they could work something
out together. If the behaviour did not stop, I would tell the one doing the
bothering that they would need to stop or I would take them out of the bath.
So this is a parent-delivered consequence, right?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But, if "bothering" means that he wants to play too just not by the other's rules, then that's not really bothering in a sense that needs to be stopped, know what I mean? It's an impasse where they need to figure out a solution that can meet everyone's needs. If it's an imaginative game, then the rules need to get renegotiated to include everyone in the game, not just the people who were there first. This isn't a blanket statement, by any means; I can easily imagine scenarios in which the person's rules should be honored. But, this would end up coming out in a renegotiation, I would hope.
For instance, the other day my kids were playing with their Imaginext pirate ship and Julia had her Disney princesses up in the crow's nest. Sam came over to play and began knocking them out with his pirate, which upset Julia. The ship belongs to all of them, so in my view, it's not fair if the girls are always making the rules for the games and the only way Sam can play is to play by their rules. He's not really "bothering" them if he is trying to play in a legitimate but different way. They need to find a way to play that accommodates all of them. Of course, one gets into the quagmire of having to decide what constitutes "legitimate," which is why negotiation and rational exchange is so important.
This is the way it works in my house anyway.
--danielle
Erika wrote:
For example, let's say that my children are having a bath and one is
purposely bothering the other one. Before, I would ask my child what was
wrong, why they were doing that, etc. I would encourage the one being
bothered to ask the other one to stop or see if they could work something
out together. If the behaviour did not stop, I would tell the one doing the
bothering that they would need to stop or I would take them out of the bath.
So this is a parent-delivered consequence, right?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<So this is a parent-delivered consequence, right?>>
Yes. But also an appropriate one. You are also the mother of the child
being bothered. I think this is where the "no harm" principle comes in. My
kids do what they want as long as they are not causing harm. Pestering
someone who has asked them to stop is causing harm.
I think a very gentle way to handle it might be something like: "I think
you will need to take a bath later. Let's get your clothes on and I will
read you guys a story while your sibling finishes her bath."
It isn't harsh....It solves the problem....It doesn't leave child number 1
feeling awful....It doesn't leave mom feeling like a shrew.
Julie S.
Yes. But also an appropriate one. You are also the mother of the child
being bothered. I think this is where the "no harm" principle comes in. My
kids do what they want as long as they are not causing harm. Pestering
someone who has asked them to stop is causing harm.
I think a very gentle way to handle it might be something like: "I think
you will need to take a bath later. Let's get your clothes on and I will
read you guys a story while your sibling finishes her bath."
It isn't harsh....It solves the problem....It doesn't leave child number 1
feeling awful....It doesn't leave mom feeling like a shrew.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Erika Nunn" <erikanunn@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What would you do?
> "This is a trap we fell into when we first released the controls after
> unschooling for a couple of years. I had been told over and over that
kids
> would learn to self-regulate on things if I would just be patient. I
> thought that meant that I should completely back off and the kids would
stop
> doing "insane" things."
>
> This is where I am with my 3 and 4 year old. I am unsure of how to let my
> children make choices, without them going "insane." Don't get me wrong,
it
> is not that I never let my children make choices, it is just that I know I
> also am too controlling in certain areas. I also do timeouts with my
> children, and do not want to do that anymore as I do not think it helps.
My
> main worry is that my children will just not listen to me anymore if I do
> not impose my own consequences.
>
> For example, let's say that my children are having a bath and one is
> purposely bothering the other one. Before, I would ask my child what was
> wrong, why they were doing that, etc. I would encourage the one being
> bothered to ask the other one to stop or see if they could work something
> out together. If the behaviour did not stop, I would tell the one doing
the
> bothering that they would need to stop or I would take them out of the
bath.
> So this is a parent-delivered consequence, right?
>
> Now if I did not take the child out of the bath, what would I do? It
isn't
> fair to the child who is trying to play and is continually being bothered.
> And if I don't do anything about it, will my children see me as being
> somebody they don't need to listen to?
>
> Thank you - I am trying to figure out the right balance for situations
such
> as these.
>
> Erika :)
>
>
>
> >From: "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What would you do?
> >Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:45:38 -0600
> >
> ><<<< If kids (not the person whose post is quoted up above, but general
> >kids
> >in
> > > general) are celebrating freedom by MAKING messes, that's not
productive
> >at all,
> > > and I wouldn't claim "unschooling" if kids are purposely pouring sodas
> >out
> >in
> > > the van or anything LIKE that.>>>>
> >
> >Sandra,
> >
> >I think you have a valid point. This is a trap we fell into when we
first
> >released the controls after unschooling for a couple of years. I had
been
> >told over and over that kids would learn to self-regulate on things if I
> >would just be patient. I thought that meant that I should completely
back
> >off and the kids would stop doing "insane" things. Example: The kids
> >wouldn't quit jumping on my bed, even though I asked them not to and
> >explained why (old mattress, old bed, no money for that right now, etc.).
> >I
> >felt that if I kicked them out of my room, they weren't
"self-regulating".
> >I was regulating them by punishing them by kicking them out of my room
when
> >they jumped on the bed.. And I had been told over and over that
punishment
> >was counter-productive.
> >
> >It took a while for me to find the difference between punishment and
> >consequences due to lack of personal responsibility. I finally came to
the
> >principle of "not doing harm" and that has helped me understand where the
> >line is. But it is, I think, a progession, a maturing into unschooling.
> >
> >Julie S.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <SandraDodd@...>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 11:16 AM
> >Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What would you do?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 1/9/04 3:37:19 AM, stephc62@... writes:
> > >
> > > << I finally had to say I'm sorry I can't do it myself and would you
> >mind
> > > doing this or that. >>
> > >
> > > I don't think anyone ever recommended telling kids "Don't worry, I'll
do
> >it
> > > all myself," so sometimes when I hear the problems being caused I'm
> >curious as
> > > to how it was presented.
> > >
> > > But just as with school, if kids were "made to work" and it was
> >considered
> >
> > > something to be avoided, their first instinct will be to avoid it, and
> >maybe the
> > > more pressure and work there was when it was required, the longer and
> >more
> > > intensely they'll want to avoid it.
> > >
> > > But not cleaning all the time isn't the opposite of making a horrible
> >mess
> >on
> > > purpose.
> > >
> > >>
> > > Of all the issues we've ever discussed here, I think the housework and
> >chores
> > > is the most marginal of all to unschooling, and I'm a little nervous
at
> >the
> > > effect. Maybe something Joyce alluded to is true, that there are more
> >advanced
> > > levels of unschooling.
> > >
> > > If a family shows up here who's still doing school at home and wants
to
> > > unschool, maybe the talk about food and chores and bedtimes is just
> >going
> >to
> > > overwhelm and confuse them. Because there CAN be unschooling in a
> >family
> >where kids
> > > also have chores and bedtimes and have to clean their plates. I
don't
> > > personally think it will have the depth or benefit, ultimately, as a
> >house
> >where
> > > the children's preferences and freedoms have high priority, but it
could
> >still
> > > absolutely be, in homeschooling terms, unschooling.
> > >
> > > If a family quits all their routines and the kids go crazy eating
candy
> >and
> > > watching TV because they never got to before, but the parents still
> >don't
> >"get"
> > > unschooling and so are still pressing "schoolwork," what a mess THAT
is
> >going
> > > to be. It's not just carts before horses, it might be climbing into
> >the
> > > cart and hopping up and down before they're even sure what a horse is.
> > >
> > > I hope that's not happening.
> > >
> > > I don't guess this is a problem particular to unschooling, though.
Some
> > > people dress like skaters without getting wheels of any sort. I'm
just
> >concerned
> > > for the effect on confused families, and the reputation of
unschooling,
> >and
> > > the clarity and peace of the list.
> > >
> > > Sandra
> > >
> > >
> > > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> >http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home.
> http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<So you would see "stop jumping on the bed" as a consequence maybe? (You
Actually, the way it would work is:
I am doing something in my room and a couple of the kids wander in. One
starts jumping on the bed which they have been told many times not to do and
why. I would say "Remember, don't jump on the bed. It is old." The kids
hop off but within about 2 minutes it starts again. I say "Stop jumping on
the bed" and it stops but soon starts again. I say "You need to leave now.
I've asked you several times to stop jumping on my bed and you keep doing
it. I'll be out in a minute."
To me, I had inflicted a punishment. It certainly wasn't a natural
consequence,,,,was a logical one, but still it came from me. So I thought I
was somehow missing the unschooling/respecting your child/let them learn to
self-regulate boat.
It took a while for me to get the "you are free to live your life as you see
fit as long as you are not causing harm to others".
Now, I see that the kids were causing harm (not respecting my property as I
had respectfully asked them to) and so I had the right to infringe on their
freedom to the point that it was no longer infringing on mine.
Julie S.
> didn't give an example, so I'm guessing.)>>>>*******************************************
Actually, the way it would work is:
I am doing something in my room and a couple of the kids wander in. One
starts jumping on the bed which they have been told many times not to do and
why. I would say "Remember, don't jump on the bed. It is old." The kids
hop off but within about 2 minutes it starts again. I say "Stop jumping on
the bed" and it stops but soon starts again. I say "You need to leave now.
I've asked you several times to stop jumping on my bed and you keep doing
it. I'll be out in a minute."
To me, I had inflicted a punishment. It certainly wasn't a natural
consequence,,,,was a logical one, but still it came from me. So I thought I
was somehow missing the unschooling/respecting your child/let them learn to
self-regulate boat.
It took a while for me to get the "you are free to live your life as you see
fit as long as you are not causing harm to others".
Now, I see that the kids were causing harm (not respecting my property as I
had respectfully asked them to) and so I had the right to infringe on their
freedom to the point that it was no longer infringing on mine.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What would you do?
> In a message dated 1/9/2004 12:28:03 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> jnjstau@... writes:
> -=-I was regulating them by punishing them by kicking them out of my room
when
> they jumped on the bed.. And I had been told over and over that
punishment
> was counter-productive.-=-
>
> I see punishment as spanking, grounding, withholding privileges or
allowance.
>
> If someone jumps on the bed and you want them to stop, saying "Stop
jumping
> on the bed" isn't punishment. It's you defending your property and the
peace
> of your room.
>
> -=-It took a while for me to find the difference between punishment and
> consequences due to lack of personal responsibility. -=-
>
> >
> I just see it as an expression of preference which could get stronger, ro
a
> physical removal if necessary.
>
> Maybe (still guessing and speculating) if a child was raised with "If you
> don't stop I'll spank you" and then the spanking stops, they might
celebrate by
> doing what they used to avoid to avoid spankings.
>
> If so, though, that proves the point that spanking is a bad way to help
> children learn how to act and why.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>