[UnschoolingDiscussion] The lovely Jane Jacobs
Dawn Adams
I thought I'd share a quote I just heard on CBC radio one. Jane Jacobs just said this during an interview, "Don't worry about thinking of experts as stupid, they often are." I thought it fitting considering recent discussions on degrees and such.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Replace "experts" in this sentence with girls, boys, husbands, gays,
in-laws, any racial or ethnic group, teachers, stay-at-home moms, blondes, fat
people, the poor, the rich, fundamentalists, , whatever --
It's no more or less true. No more or less helpful to unschooling or
to reasoned decision-making of any kind. Imo. JJ
Wishbone@... writes:
in-laws, any racial or ethnic group, teachers, stay-at-home moms, blondes, fat
people, the poor, the rich, fundamentalists, , whatever --
It's no more or less true. No more or less helpful to unschooling or
to reasoned decision-making of any kind. Imo. JJ
Wishbone@... writes:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I thought I'd share a quote I just heard on CBC radio one. Jane Jacobs
> just said this during an interview, "Don't worry about thinking of experts as
> stupid, they often are." I thought it fitting considering recent discussions
> on degrees and such.
>
> Dawn (in NS)
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/4/2004 4:37:04 PM Mountain Standard Time,
jrossedd@... writes:
-=- Replace "experts" in this sentence with girls, boys, husbands,
gays,
in-laws, any racial or ethnic group, teachers, stay-at-home moms, blondes,
fat
people, the poor, the rich, fundamentalists, , whatever --
-=- It's no more or less true. No more or less helpful to unschooling or
to reasoned decision-making of any kind. Imo. JJ-=-
Those other people as a class (except the teachers and fundamentalists) are
not making their name telling other people what to do.
It matters.
If electricians were burning down as many houses as they were wiring, it
could be a problem. They're not.
Meanwhile reading specialists are doing daily damage to the psyches of
children everywhere.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jrossedd@... writes:
-=- Replace "experts" in this sentence with girls, boys, husbands,
gays,
in-laws, any racial or ethnic group, teachers, stay-at-home moms, blondes,
fat
people, the poor, the rich, fundamentalists, , whatever --
-=- It's no more or less true. No more or less helpful to unschooling or
to reasoned decision-making of any kind. Imo. JJ-=-
Those other people as a class (except the teachers and fundamentalists) are
not making their name telling other people what to do.
It matters.
If electricians were burning down as many houses as they were wiring, it
could be a problem. They're not.
Meanwhile reading specialists are doing daily damage to the psyches of
children everywhere.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 01/04/2004 7:00:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
be stupid and harmful (not an opinion I share) but that's not the part that
bothers me -- adopting the attitude that experts are stupid is no smarter than
accepting their counsel wholesale. Prejudice is prejudice. If parents prejudge
Sandra Dodd, for example, as probably stupid solely because she has the
temerity to advise others on unschooling and therefore seems to be some kind of
"expert", it would be irrational and un-helpful to their unschooling success. :)
JJ.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Those other people as a class (except the teachers and fundamentalists) areYes, I understand the view that experts are just as likely as not to
>
> not making their name telling other people what to do.
>
> It matters.
>
> If electricians were burning down as many houses as they were wiring, it
> could be a problem. They're not.
>
> Meanwhile reading specialists are doing daily damage to the psyches of
> children everywhere.
>
> Sandra
>
>
be stupid and harmful (not an opinion I share) but that's not the part that
bothers me -- adopting the attitude that experts are stupid is no smarter than
accepting their counsel wholesale. Prejudice is prejudice. If parents prejudge
Sandra Dodd, for example, as probably stupid solely because she has the
temerity to advise others on unschooling and therefore seems to be some kind of
"expert", it would be irrational and un-helpful to their unschooling success. :)
JJ.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
We live in an era in which parents hardly trust themselves at all -
don't rely on their own good sense, their own experience, their love
for their own children, their own traditions, their own values, the
gentle examples of more experienced friends and relatives, but instead
are "parenting advice" junkies, spending millions of dollars on
parenting classes, books, magazines, counselors, etc, looking to
experts to help them make every possible decision. Over-reliance on
experts makes parents feel they are never doing enough, never making
good enough decisions. Parents are persuaded by first one expert and
then another. Their approach to parenting does not come from deeply
held personal beliefs about what it means to care for and rear a new
human being - instead they try out the newest parenting fads, often one
after another, with increasing desperation when they don't "work" (kids
are still kids with their own individual strengths and weaknesses) and
they feel like failures when they don't feel the deep satisfaction that
the experts tell them parenting ought to bring them. Relying on experts
makes parents fearful and anxious about doing the wrong thing since
they are "not experts" themselves. It drains the confidence from
parents and the joy from family life.
don't rely on their own good sense, their own experience, their love
for their own children, their own traditions, their own values, the
gentle examples of more experienced friends and relatives, but instead
are "parenting advice" junkies, spending millions of dollars on
parenting classes, books, magazines, counselors, etc, looking to
experts to help them make every possible decision. Over-reliance on
experts makes parents feel they are never doing enough, never making
good enough decisions. Parents are persuaded by first one expert and
then another. Their approach to parenting does not come from deeply
held personal beliefs about what it means to care for and rear a new
human being - instead they try out the newest parenting fads, often one
after another, with increasing desperation when they don't "work" (kids
are still kids with their own individual strengths and weaknesses) and
they feel like failures when they don't feel the deep satisfaction that
the experts tell them parenting ought to bring them. Relying on experts
makes parents fearful and anxious about doing the wrong thing since
they are "not experts" themselves. It drains the confidence from
parents and the joy from family life.
On Jan 4, 2004, at 3:35 PM, jrossedd@... wrote:
> Replace "experts" in this sentence with girls, boys, husbands,
> gays,
> in-laws, any racial or ethnic group, teachers, stay-at-home moms,
> blondes, fat
> people, the poor, the rich, fundamentalists, , whatever --
>
> It's no more or less true. No more or less helpful to
> unschooling or
> to reasoned decision-making of any kind. Imo. JJ
>
>
> Wishbone@... writes:
>
>
>>
>> I thought I'd share a quote I just heard on CBC radio one. Jane
>> Jacobs
>> just said this during an interview, "Don't worry about thinking of
>> experts as
>> stupid, they often are." I thought it fitting considering recent
>> discussions
>> on degrees and such.
>>
>> Dawn (in NS)
>>
>>
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
pam sorooshian
On Jan 4, 2004, at 5:12 PM, jrossedd@... wrote:
experts as stupid, they often are."
But I understood it to mean that if you think an expert is stupid,
don't worry about it, as they often are.
In other words, don't take an expert's advice as infallible, if it
seems stupid to you, it could well be.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Yes, I understand the view that experts are just as likely asWe have no context for the quote: ""Don't worry about thinking of
> not to
> be stupid and harmful (not an opinion I share) but that's not the part
> that
> bothers me -- adopting the attitude that experts are stupid is no
> smarter than
> accepting their counsel wholesale. Prejudice is prejudice.
experts as stupid, they often are."
But I understood it to mean that if you think an expert is stupid,
don't worry about it, as they often are.
In other words, don't take an expert's advice as infallible, if it
seems stupid to you, it could well be.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/4/04 8:11:05 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< Over-reliance on
experts makes parents feel they are never doing enough, never making
good enough decisions. >>
I think it can also, though, let them release themselves from personal
responsibility.
"I only did what I read was the right thing to do."
When people send their kids to school, they rarely feel responsible for the
outcome or sorrow or frustration. It couldn't be helped.
<< Their approach to parenting does not come from deeply
held personal beliefs about what it means to care for and rear a new
human being - instead they try out the newest parenting fads, often one
after another, with increasing desperation when they don't "work" >>
And then those children will do the same, it seems, if what people tell other
people is "We have no instincts and can only learn from books and teachers
and experts."
<<Relying on experts
makes parents fearful and anxious about doing the wrong thing since
they are "not experts" themselves. >>
Yes, but if they DO what experts say, they sometimes relax. Too much.
<<It drains the confidence from
parents and the joy from family life.>>
Can confidence be drained from people who didn't have confidence in
themselves in the first place?
Sandra
<< Over-reliance on
experts makes parents feel they are never doing enough, never making
good enough decisions. >>
I think it can also, though, let them release themselves from personal
responsibility.
"I only did what I read was the right thing to do."
When people send their kids to school, they rarely feel responsible for the
outcome or sorrow or frustration. It couldn't be helped.
<< Their approach to parenting does not come from deeply
held personal beliefs about what it means to care for and rear a new
human being - instead they try out the newest parenting fads, often one
after another, with increasing desperation when they don't "work" >>
And then those children will do the same, it seems, if what people tell other
people is "We have no instincts and can only learn from books and teachers
and experts."
<<Relying on experts
makes parents fearful and anxious about doing the wrong thing since
they are "not experts" themselves. >>
Yes, but if they DO what experts say, they sometimes relax. Too much.
<<It drains the confidence from
parents and the joy from family life.>>
Can confidence be drained from people who didn't have confidence in
themselves in the first place?
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Jan 4, 2004, at 7:57 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
feel just horrible when things do go wrong, even if they do think they
did follow the experts advice and are bewildered by it not "working"
for them. I'm not sure they are thinking, "It couldn't be helped," so
much as trying to resolve problems the only way they know how - more
reliance on experts.
extremely anxious - either trying to protect their kids from every
possible danger or trying to create designer kids who are showpieces
for their "perfect" parents. I think maybe you meant "relax too much"
as in not spend enough time, thought, energy on their kids, though, and
that I agree with. For example, some parents "relax" by following the
expert advice that says let a baby cry for 10 minutes longer every
night until he/she is sleeping all night.
themselves and their own values, decisions, ideas, experiences, logic.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
>I guess. But what I so often see are very very sorrowful parents who
> << Over-reliance on
> experts makes parents feel they are never doing enough, never making
> good enough decisions. >>
>
> I think it can also, though, let them release themselves from personal
> responsibility.
> "I only did what I read was the right thing to do."
> When people send their kids to school, they rarely feel responsible
> for the
> outcome or sorrow or frustration. It couldn't be helped.
feel just horrible when things do go wrong, even if they do think they
did follow the experts advice and are bewildered by it not "working"
for them. I'm not sure they are thinking, "It couldn't be helped," so
much as trying to resolve problems the only way they know how - more
reliance on experts.
>I don't see very many relaxed parents. I think parents these days are
> << Their approach to parenting does not come from deeply
> held personal beliefs about what it means to care for and rear a new
> human being - instead they try out the newest parenting fads, often one
> after another, with increasing desperation when they don't "work" >>
>
> And then those children will do the same, it seems, if what people
> tell other
> people is "We have no instincts and can only learn from books and
> teachers
> and experts."
>
> <<Relying on experts
> makes parents fearful and anxious about doing the wrong thing since
> they are "not experts" themselves. >>
>
> Yes, but if they DO what experts say, they sometimes relax. Too much.
>
extremely anxious - either trying to protect their kids from every
possible danger or trying to create designer kids who are showpieces
for their "perfect" parents. I think maybe you meant "relax too much"
as in not spend enough time, thought, energy on their kids, though, and
that I agree with. For example, some parents "relax" by following the
expert advice that says let a baby cry for 10 minutes longer every
night until he/she is sleeping all night.
> <<It drains the confidence fromOkay put it this way - prevents parents from developing confidence in
> parents and the joy from family life.>>
>
> Can confidence be drained from people who didn't have confidence in
> themselves in the first place?
themselves and their own values, decisions, ideas, experiences, logic.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Robyn Coburn
<<We live in an era in which parents hardly trust themselves at all -
don't rely on their own good sense, their own experience, their love
for their own children, their own traditions, their own values, the
gentle examples of more experienced friends and relatives, but instead
are "parenting advice" junkies, spending millions of dollars on
parenting classes, books, magazines, counselors, etc, looking to
experts to help them make every possible decision. >>
OTOH, if you had a childhood/family life like mine, or in a different way,
my husband's, it is a good thing that the "traditions" that I was reared
with, such as being hit and screamed at, have been left behind. It is
through reading parenting books, including some that I found useless and not
gentle enough, that eventually led me to unschooling. And hearing from the
experts, as in long experienced, here has helped me more than any examples
from any friends or relatives.
My mother phoned me to beg me to not have Jayn in our family bed when
Michael Jackson was arrested, drawing some bizarre mental parallel between
him and Jayn's father! This is the same person who told me that she got her
idea of how a good relationship was supposed to look from movies and
television soap operas. I didn't have anyone modeling good gentle parenting
for me when I was young, or modeling good relationship and marriage skills
for me. Thank goodness there are other sources of information.
Since Jayn has gotten older, to be reaching the same age that I have my
earliest memories of being shouted at, spanked, punished and shamed, in some
respects it has gotten harder for me. I keep having flashes of how I was
treated when I acted similarly to Jayn is acting. I have utterly rejected
spanking or punishing her, but sometimes the thought that "one hit and all
this hysteria would be over" comes unwanted into my head, followed by "good
thing I WILL NOT EVER hit her". I had to stop and actually develop a
strategy for dealing with her unpleasant behaviors (like throwing objects at
us, or hitting us and laughing hysterically) that bring up feelings of
powerlessness and anger at her. I already know what my mother would have
done. I know that I would have been hit for it, instantly and without
thought.
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't rely on their own good sense, their own experience, their love
for their own children, their own traditions, their own values, the
gentle examples of more experienced friends and relatives, but instead
are "parenting advice" junkies, spending millions of dollars on
parenting classes, books, magazines, counselors, etc, looking to
experts to help them make every possible decision. >>
OTOH, if you had a childhood/family life like mine, or in a different way,
my husband's, it is a good thing that the "traditions" that I was reared
with, such as being hit and screamed at, have been left behind. It is
through reading parenting books, including some that I found useless and not
gentle enough, that eventually led me to unschooling. And hearing from the
experts, as in long experienced, here has helped me more than any examples
from any friends or relatives.
My mother phoned me to beg me to not have Jayn in our family bed when
Michael Jackson was arrested, drawing some bizarre mental parallel between
him and Jayn's father! This is the same person who told me that she got her
idea of how a good relationship was supposed to look from movies and
television soap operas. I didn't have anyone modeling good gentle parenting
for me when I was young, or modeling good relationship and marriage skills
for me. Thank goodness there are other sources of information.
Since Jayn has gotten older, to be reaching the same age that I have my
earliest memories of being shouted at, spanked, punished and shamed, in some
respects it has gotten harder for me. I keep having flashes of how I was
treated when I acted similarly to Jayn is acting. I have utterly rejected
spanking or punishing her, but sometimes the thought that "one hit and all
this hysteria would be over" comes unwanted into my head, followed by "good
thing I WILL NOT EVER hit her". I had to stop and actually develop a
strategy for dealing with her unpleasant behaviors (like throwing objects at
us, or hitting us and laughing hysterically) that bring up feelings of
powerlessness and anger at her. I already know what my mother would have
done. I know that I would have been hit for it, instantly and without
thought.
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
Pam writes:
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>We have no context for the quote: ""Don't worry about thinking ofMuch of the interview was, of course about cities and city planners. Planners who thought they knew what was best for a community without consulting the people that lived in the community. The comment was more general as she had many unkind things to say about her school experience and college (she lasted two years and never finished). She had quite a bit to say on how people are taught to believe what they are told and not what they themselves see so yes, I think Pam's interpretation is spot on. It's a warning to people that they should trust themselves instead of the label 'expert'.
>experts as stupid, they often are."
>But I understood it to mean that if you think an expert is stupid,
>don't worry about it, as they often are.
>In other words, don't take an expert's advice as infallible, if it
>seems stupid to you, it could well be.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wife2Vegman
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
go in happy and confident and smiling and come out
worried, sick, and unsure, and angry.
I think it must have happened to people in
concentration camps too, both here and in Nazi
Germany.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
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>Doesn't it happen all the time in schools? Children
>
> <<It drains the confidence from
> parents and the joy from family life.>>
>
> Can confidence be drained from people who didn't
> have confidence in
> themselves in the first place?
>
> Sandra
>
go in happy and confident and smiling and come out
worried, sick, and unsure, and angry.
I think it must have happened to people in
concentration camps too, both here and in Nazi
Germany.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/4/04 11:11:14 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< > Yes, but if they DO what experts say, they sometimes relax. Too much.
extremely anxious - either trying to protect their kids from every
possible danger or trying to create designer kids who are showpieces
for their "perfect" parents. I think maybe you meant "relax too much"
as in not spend enough time, thought, energy on their kids, though, and
that I agree with. >>
Maybe "relax" isn't right. But they become defensive of the method and
expert, not more reflective of their own feelings and responses. If they feel
they're not qualified to HAVE feelings and responses, and the expert says "this
will take years," it seems to me they're off the hook for years.
I've seen too many school parents who had blind faith that the school had
their child's best interests at heart, and so they did nothing to check on how
the child was doing emotionally or socially or creatively, but just depended on
report cards and teacher's feedback to know their own child.
The people who let their kids cry themselves to sleep because a book said
to--they HAVE to be thinking of the book or the expert during that heartwrenching
time, or they would pick the baby up. They're blaming someone else for
their baby's crying, and not taking responsibility themselves.
<<Okay put it this way - prevents parents from developing confidence in
themselves and their own values, decisions, ideas, experiences, logic.>>
But it seems you're saying their confidence is in experts. So their values
involve deferring to experts. They decide to defer. They have the idea that
experts are good. Their experience might seem to be that they must not have
followed the directions, if it didn't work.
Logic???
Sandra
<< > Yes, but if they DO what experts say, they sometimes relax. Too much.
>I don't see very many relaxed parents. I think parents these days are
extremely anxious - either trying to protect their kids from every
possible danger or trying to create designer kids who are showpieces
for their "perfect" parents. I think maybe you meant "relax too much"
as in not spend enough time, thought, energy on their kids, though, and
that I agree with. >>
Maybe "relax" isn't right. But they become defensive of the method and
expert, not more reflective of their own feelings and responses. If they feel
they're not qualified to HAVE feelings and responses, and the expert says "this
will take years," it seems to me they're off the hook for years.
I've seen too many school parents who had blind faith that the school had
their child's best interests at heart, and so they did nothing to check on how
the child was doing emotionally or socially or creatively, but just depended on
report cards and teacher's feedback to know their own child.
The people who let their kids cry themselves to sleep because a book said
to--they HAVE to be thinking of the book or the expert during that heartwrenching
time, or they would pick the baby up. They're blaming someone else for
their baby's crying, and not taking responsibility themselves.
<<Okay put it this way - prevents parents from developing confidence in
themselves and their own values, decisions, ideas, experiences, logic.>>
But it seems you're saying their confidence is in experts. So their values
involve deferring to experts. They decide to defer. They have the idea that
experts are good. Their experience might seem to be that they must not have
followed the directions, if it didn't work.
Logic???
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/5/04 1:46:36 AM, dezigna@... writes:
<< It is
through reading parenting books, including some that I found useless and not
gentle enough, that eventually led me to unschooling. And hearing from the
experts, as in long experienced, here has helped me more than any examples
from any friends or relatives. >>
Yes, but you didn't choose one book or person and glom on there.
I really l iked the Penelope Leach book I had when Kirby was little. I liked
her style of writing, and I liked some of her ideas of things to do with
babies. But she said "never let them sleep with you" and I had no problem
thinking, "No, that's wrong thinking; biological necessity has mammals sleeping with
their babies in the natural world." And she liked school, and that seemed (as
others have mentioned lately) an abrupt change from the nurturing she was
recommending for younger kids.
<<Thank goodness there are other sources of information.>>
And good for Jayn that you're good at checking several and then making your
own decisions based on all the "values, decisions, ideas, experiences, logic"
Pam discussed.
"On another network" (unschooling.com) months ago, we were talking about
something like how much to trust experts, and I said people needed to read the
stuff but then think for themselves, to compare sources and read critically, not
blindly. Someone went off on that saying she was tired of hearing people
talk about "critical thinking," that she didn't even know what they meant and she
thought it was just school buzz-word and why was I recommending a schoolish
thing (or some such).
I was kind of stunned. Can school ruin even people's desire to be critical
thinkers?
By critical thinking I meant thinking at all times that the person you're
reading or hearing could be wrong. I meant that while taking in new information
one should hold it up to all that they already know and believe, filter it
through their personal convictions and prior problems, and see if it seems true
and useful.
I don't think an interest in experts' opinions is bad in any way. I think
"over reliance" (I don't know who used that descriptor, but "over reliance"
doesn't seem to imply "critical thinking" to me) is the problem. Laying down our
thoughts in deference to an expert's, even if they don't seem right to us.
Some people do. No people should.
Sandra
<< It is
through reading parenting books, including some that I found useless and not
gentle enough, that eventually led me to unschooling. And hearing from the
experts, as in long experienced, here has helped me more than any examples
from any friends or relatives. >>
Yes, but you didn't choose one book or person and glom on there.
I really l iked the Penelope Leach book I had when Kirby was little. I liked
her style of writing, and I liked some of her ideas of things to do with
babies. But she said "never let them sleep with you" and I had no problem
thinking, "No, that's wrong thinking; biological necessity has mammals sleeping with
their babies in the natural world." And she liked school, and that seemed (as
others have mentioned lately) an abrupt change from the nurturing she was
recommending for younger kids.
<<Thank goodness there are other sources of information.>>
And good for Jayn that you're good at checking several and then making your
own decisions based on all the "values, decisions, ideas, experiences, logic"
Pam discussed.
"On another network" (unschooling.com) months ago, we were talking about
something like how much to trust experts, and I said people needed to read the
stuff but then think for themselves, to compare sources and read critically, not
blindly. Someone went off on that saying she was tired of hearing people
talk about "critical thinking," that she didn't even know what they meant and she
thought it was just school buzz-word and why was I recommending a schoolish
thing (or some such).
I was kind of stunned. Can school ruin even people's desire to be critical
thinkers?
By critical thinking I meant thinking at all times that the person you're
reading or hearing could be wrong. I meant that while taking in new information
one should hold it up to all that they already know and believe, filter it
through their personal convictions and prior problems, and see if it seems true
and useful.
I don't think an interest in experts' opinions is bad in any way. I think
"over reliance" (I don't know who used that descriptor, but "over reliance"
doesn't seem to imply "critical thinking" to me) is the problem. Laying down our
thoughts in deference to an expert's, even if they don't seem right to us.
Some people do. No people should.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/5/04 4:16:15 AM, Wishbone@... writes:
<< Much of the interview was, of course about cities and city planners.
Planners who thought they knew what was best for a community without consulting the
people that lived in the community. The comment was more general as she had
many unkind things to say about her school experience and college (she lasted
two years and never finished). She had quite a bit to say on how people are
taught to believe what they are told and not what they themselves see so yes, I
think Pam's interpretation is spot on. It's a warning to people that they
should trust themselves instead of the label 'expert'. >>
I'm a big fan of Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligences. There's not a
good word for "well rounded expert," but maybe someday there will be. Maybe
someday nobody would take ANY advice from a city planner who wasn't known to have
some interpersonal awareness, who could think of what people needed and liked,
and who could interpret what the people with whom he was dealing directly
seemed to think was good.
Some people can be whiz-bang at something technical and not know the
difference between extreme full-body disapproval of someone in the room and a happy
invitation to lunch. And when those people are planning human experiences
(malls, classrooms, whatever involves people and human needs) sometimes they
TOTALLY miss the mark.
I have one mostly autistic kind of adult friend whose party planning used to
involve inviting everybody she knew because she couldn't figure out how to
decide, and she would just say that if two of them hated each other that was
THEIR problem, not hers. So she would invite just-broken up couples, roommates
who had stolen from other roommates and been thrown out, invite all those people
without regard to the effect on the other guests, because she herself
couldn't tell the difference between a tense room and a relaxed room. All she cared
was how many showed up, and did they like the food.
(I'm just guessing on that second one actually, because she did try to plan
enough food, and would have been confused or unhappy had there been much food
left, so maybe that was mathematical too.)
So maybe in any area in which people are directly involved (like medicine)
expertise in a person with no human skills is irritating. And the advice given
by proclaimed experts who would easily give advice that wouldn't work outside
the theoretical is likely to be unworkable advice.
Sandra
<< Much of the interview was, of course about cities and city planners.
Planners who thought they knew what was best for a community without consulting the
people that lived in the community. The comment was more general as she had
many unkind things to say about her school experience and college (she lasted
two years and never finished). She had quite a bit to say on how people are
taught to believe what they are told and not what they themselves see so yes, I
think Pam's interpretation is spot on. It's a warning to people that they
should trust themselves instead of the label 'expert'. >>
I'm a big fan of Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligences. There's not a
good word for "well rounded expert," but maybe someday there will be. Maybe
someday nobody would take ANY advice from a city planner who wasn't known to have
some interpersonal awareness, who could think of what people needed and liked,
and who could interpret what the people with whom he was dealing directly
seemed to think was good.
Some people can be whiz-bang at something technical and not know the
difference between extreme full-body disapproval of someone in the room and a happy
invitation to lunch. And when those people are planning human experiences
(malls, classrooms, whatever involves people and human needs) sometimes they
TOTALLY miss the mark.
I have one mostly autistic kind of adult friend whose party planning used to
involve inviting everybody she knew because she couldn't figure out how to
decide, and she would just say that if two of them hated each other that was
THEIR problem, not hers. So she would invite just-broken up couples, roommates
who had stolen from other roommates and been thrown out, invite all those people
without regard to the effect on the other guests, because she herself
couldn't tell the difference between a tense room and a relaxed room. All she cared
was how many showed up, and did they like the food.
(I'm just guessing on that second one actually, because she did try to plan
enough food, and would have been confused or unhappy had there been much food
left, so maybe that was mathematical too.)
So maybe in any area in which people are directly involved (like medicine)
expertise in a person with no human skills is irritating. And the advice given
by proclaimed experts who would easily give advice that wouldn't work outside
the theoretical is likely to be unworkable advice.
Sandra
Betsy
**instead they try out the newest parenting fads, often one
after another, with increasing desperation when they don't "work" (kids
are still kids with their own individual strengths and weaknesses)**
I read Parents magazine for years before I had a child, and when he was
an infant I continued to read lots of parenting books. But by the time
he was 2 or almost 2, I started to think "this generic kid they are
describing isn't much like my kid". So I stopped with the books.
I like the interactive advice here better anyway. :-)
I take what fits and chew on the rest.
Betsy
after another, with increasing desperation when they don't "work" (kids
are still kids with their own individual strengths and weaknesses)**
I read Parents magazine for years before I had a child, and when he was
an infant I continued to read lots of parenting books. But by the time
he was 2 or almost 2, I started to think "this generic kid they are
describing isn't much like my kid". So I stopped with the books.
I like the interactive advice here better anyway. :-)
I take what fits and chew on the rest.
Betsy
pam sorooshian
Pam:
and books if they are reading them like most of us here probably did -
just because it is fascinating to read what other people say about
parenting and children and to take whatever good ideas we can find and
even to shake up our thinking and move us forward in our own
philosophies.
But MANY people simply adopt an expert to follow. There are people who
follow John Rosemond's advice - because he is a so-called expert - just
BECAUSE he's the expert. I can't count how many people have defended
the idea that children need to be told "no" frequently by their parents
- by saying that they got it from John Rosemond as if that makes the
idea "more right" because it came from an expert.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> **instead they try out the newest parenting fads, often onePam again: I don't think the problem is that people READ the magazines
> after another, with increasing desperation when they don't "work" (kids
> are still kids with their own individual strengths and weaknesses)**
> Betsy:
> I read Parents magazine for years before I had a child, and when he was
> an infant I continued to read lots of parenting books. But by the time
> he was 2 or almost 2, I started to think "this generic kid they are
> describing isn't much like my kid". So I stopped with the books.
and books if they are reading them like most of us here probably did -
just because it is fascinating to read what other people say about
parenting and children and to take whatever good ideas we can find and
even to shake up our thinking and move us forward in our own
philosophies.
But MANY people simply adopt an expert to follow. There are people who
follow John Rosemond's advice - because he is a so-called expert - just
BECAUSE he's the expert. I can't count how many people have defended
the idea that children need to be told "no" frequently by their parents
- by saying that they got it from John Rosemond as if that makes the
idea "more right" because it came from an expert.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
pam sorooshian
On Jan 5, 2004, at 8:01 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
their own self-confidence and their own values and learning by BEING
parents who make their own decisions. For many young parents, they see
their job as deciding which parenting expert they are going to follow
and then doing it faithfully, they miss out on the experiences the rest
of us had of taking responsibility for a decision, figuring out it did
or didn't work, thinking about what we're doing, being conscious that
this is our OWN family and that the guy with Dr. in front of his name
doesn't even KNOW our family.
Logic in the sense that they lose track of commonsense. I have a
relative who went to some parenting classes put on by a PhD in Early
Childhood Education. It was stressed that it is important for kids to
have an early bedtime so that parents get their alone time. The person
talked about how one of the biggest mistakes young parents make is that
they want more time with their kids (after work and daycare all day) so
they keep them up too late and lose out on couple time. Blah blah blah.
So my relative has this kid who is a little unusual in that he really
has always needed fairly little sleep - at four he really sleeps only
about 8 hours and that's enough for him. He's never been much of a
sleeper - not a napper, etc. So - they put the kid to bed at 7:30 or 8
- because that's his bedtime and it is ruining their family life
because the kid is up and wakes them up at 4 in the morning. They have
no sense of thinking logically about this problem - all they do is try
to figure out how to apply the expert's advice - it doesn't occur to
them that the expert doesn't know THEIR kid and their family and that
they can work out their own solution. That's what I meant by reliance
on experts makes people stop using logic.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> <<Okay put it this way - prevents parents from developing confidence inI'm saying they put their confidence in experts instead of developing
> themselves and their own values, decisions, ideas, experiences,
> logic.>>
>
> But it seems you're saying their confidence is in experts. So their
> values
> involve deferring to experts. They decide to defer. They have the
> idea that
> experts are good. Their experience might seem to be that they must
> not have
> followed the directions, if it didn't work.
>
> Logic???
their own self-confidence and their own values and learning by BEING
parents who make their own decisions. For many young parents, they see
their job as deciding which parenting expert they are going to follow
and then doing it faithfully, they miss out on the experiences the rest
of us had of taking responsibility for a decision, figuring out it did
or didn't work, thinking about what we're doing, being conscious that
this is our OWN family and that the guy with Dr. in front of his name
doesn't even KNOW our family.
Logic in the sense that they lose track of commonsense. I have a
relative who went to some parenting classes put on by a PhD in Early
Childhood Education. It was stressed that it is important for kids to
have an early bedtime so that parents get their alone time. The person
talked about how one of the biggest mistakes young parents make is that
they want more time with their kids (after work and daycare all day) so
they keep them up too late and lose out on couple time. Blah blah blah.
So my relative has this kid who is a little unusual in that he really
has always needed fairly little sleep - at four he really sleeps only
about 8 hours and that's enough for him. He's never been much of a
sleeper - not a napper, etc. So - they put the kid to bed at 7:30 or 8
- because that's his bedtime and it is ruining their family life
because the kid is up and wakes them up at 4 in the morning. They have
no sense of thinking logically about this problem - all they do is try
to figure out how to apply the expert's advice - it doesn't occur to
them that the expert doesn't know THEIR kid and their family and that
they can work out their own solution. That's what I meant by reliance
on experts makes people stop using logic.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Olga
Also, the children themselves get a crutch for themselves because
the "experts" have labeled them one thing or another. In some ways
it must be a release for some parents when they have been struggling
with their child and an "expert" says the child has ADD. Now it is
not the schools fault, the parent's fault or even the child's fault
and while they are at it, let's medicate, isolate and make it clear
to the other hundreds of students that there is something wrong
here. For the rest of that child's life into adulthood, when they
fail they can say "I have ADD, it is difficult for me to concentrate
at work. It is really not my fault."
Olga :)
the "experts" have labeled them one thing or another. In some ways
it must be a release for some parents when they have been struggling
with their child and an "expert" says the child has ADD. Now it is
not the schools fault, the parent's fault or even the child's fault
and while they are at it, let's medicate, isolate and make it clear
to the other hundreds of students that there is something wrong
here. For the rest of that child's life into adulthood, when they
fail they can say "I have ADD, it is difficult for me to concentrate
at work. It is really not my fault."
Olga :)
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/4/04 8:11:05 PM, pamsoroosh@m... writes:
>
> << Over-reliance on
> experts makes parents feel they are never doing enough, never
making
> good enough decisions. >>
>
> I think it can also, though, let them release themselves from
personal
> responsibility.
> "I only did what I read was the right thing to do."
> When people send their kids to school, they rarely feel
responsible for the
> outcome or sorrow or frustration. It couldn't be helped.
>
> > Sandra
Olga
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
kids in school settings "experts" are the people who take their
doctor's word for granted. My 5yo had a cyst develop on his
foreskin when he was 2. Grief, the collection of crappy diagnosis
we got because the "experts" were not always sure and gave you the
simple asnwer: circumsice him. It took alot of digging and visits
to a whole slew of different doctors to find an answer we were
comfortable with. We did end up circumscising him but not until we
were sure that was the best thing for him and not the easiest thing
for the doctor. We sleep alot better at night knowing we took the
time to collect the best data and not blindly follow the
first "expert" urologist and dermatologist we saw.
It is the same attitude with vaccinations. My gf looked at me when
I told her we only chose certain ones, etc. and said "I didn't know
you could turn them down." I have often spoke up to my doctor when
something did not sit well with me in terms of nursing, shots, even
waiting too long. One time I made them get me another nurse because
there was so much confusion on which shot we wanted. She kept
offering the wrong ones and she was so pissed I refused to let he
touch my child. All I need is some angry, most likely underpaid
nurse to give my child a shot. No Darn Way!
Olga :)
>school had
> I've seen too many school parents who had blind faith that the
> their child's best interests at heart, and so they did nothing tocheck on how
> the child was doing emotionally or socially or creatively, butjust depended on
> report cards and teacher's feedback to know their own child.book said
>
> The people who let their kids cry themselves to sleep because a
> to--they HAVE to be thinking of the book or the expert during thatheartwrenching
> time, or they would pick the baby up. They're blaming someoneelse for
> their baby's crying, and not taking responsibility themselves.On the same line as people's general regard of those who label their
>
kids in school settings "experts" are the people who take their
doctor's word for granted. My 5yo had a cyst develop on his
foreskin when he was 2. Grief, the collection of crappy diagnosis
we got because the "experts" were not always sure and gave you the
simple asnwer: circumsice him. It took alot of digging and visits
to a whole slew of different doctors to find an answer we were
comfortable with. We did end up circumscising him but not until we
were sure that was the best thing for him and not the easiest thing
for the doctor. We sleep alot better at night knowing we took the
time to collect the best data and not blindly follow the
first "expert" urologist and dermatologist we saw.
It is the same attitude with vaccinations. My gf looked at me when
I told her we only chose certain ones, etc. and said "I didn't know
you could turn them down." I have often spoke up to my doctor when
something did not sit well with me in terms of nursing, shots, even
waiting too long. One time I made them get me another nurse because
there was so much confusion on which shot we wanted. She kept
offering the wrong ones and she was so pissed I refused to let he
touch my child. All I need is some angry, most likely underpaid
nurse to give my child a shot. No Darn Way!
Olga :)
Wife2Vegman
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
Kids are taught NOT to think, just open up like little
birds, have the information for the standardized
testing stuffed in, and then regurgitate it on the
test to make room for the next batch.
I told the story before of how Sarah didn't understand
that when she took one many years ago, and would
analyze each question.
One question was if a horse ate 10 apples in 5 days,
how many did he eat each day? They wanted her to
choose 2, of course, but she sat there and worried
about it for 15 minutes. What if the horse ate 3 one
day and 1 the next? How could she know?
I found myself saying, "don't think about it, just
pick an answer and move on". I told my child not to
think! YIKES!
or feelings. They are not reliable because they are
influenced by the sinful desires in your heart. Spank
your child even if you feel nauseous and lightheaded
at the thought of it, because you must not let those
emotions keep you from doing what is right.
By turning off and ignoring the cues that something is
wrong, eventually we become numb to those cues. Just
like a baby who is left crying for long enough will
stop, because they have lost hope.
Sometimes it is too painful to turn those receptors
back on, too. Change is good, but can rend and tear
as well. But the mere struggle is part of the
rebirthing and letting go process.
Those who can't bear the pain go back to the way they
know. Those that push through it and beyond end
up.....unschooling! WHEE!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
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> Someone went off on that saying she wasYES YES YES!
> tired of hearing people
> talk about "critical thinking," that she didn't even
> know what they meant and she
> thought it was just school buzz-word and why was I
> recommending a schoolish
> thing (or some such).
>
> I was kind of stunned. Can school ruin even
> people's desire to be critical
> thinkers?
Kids are taught NOT to think, just open up like little
birds, have the information for the standardized
testing stuffed in, and then regurgitate it on the
test to make room for the next batch.
I told the story before of how Sarah didn't understand
that when she took one many years ago, and would
analyze each question.
One question was if a horse ate 10 apples in 5 days,
how many did he eat each day? They wanted her to
choose 2, of course, but she sat there and worried
about it for 15 minutes. What if the horse ate 3 one
day and 1 the next? How could she know?
I found myself saying, "don't think about it, just
pick an answer and move on". I told my child not to
think! YIKES!
> Laying down ourMany churches teach this. Don't rely on your emotions
> thoughts in deference to an expert's, even if they
> don't seem right to us.
> Some people do. No people should.
>
> Sandra
or feelings. They are not reliable because they are
influenced by the sinful desires in your heart. Spank
your child even if you feel nauseous and lightheaded
at the thought of it, because you must not let those
emotions keep you from doing what is right.
By turning off and ignoring the cues that something is
wrong, eventually we become numb to those cues. Just
like a baby who is left crying for long enough will
stop, because they have lost hope.
Sometimes it is too painful to turn those receptors
back on, too. Change is good, but can rend and tear
as well. But the mere struggle is part of the
rebirthing and letting go process.
Those who can't bear the pain go back to the way they
know. Those that push through it and beyond end
up.....unschooling! WHEE!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
melissa4123
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
<<I can't count how many people have defended the idea that children
need to be told "no" frequently by their parents - by saying that
they got it from John Rosemond as if that makes the idea "more
right" because it came from an expert.
-pam>>
This reminded me of something I was thinking about earlier this
morning.
I have always (even when my daughter was first born and supposedly
couldn't understand me) explained why we couldn't do something that
she wanted to do rather than simply saying "no."
For example: we went to sign her up for Gymboree a while back. Of
course, as soon as we walked in the door, she wanted to play. At
that time, it was the babies in there and she wasn't able to right
then. So, I got down to her level and explained that the babies
were playing today but that we were going to come back tomrrow and
then she could play. She looked at me, said "ok" and walked out
without a fight. She spent the rest of the day telling everyone who
would listen that she was playing at Gymboree tomorrow. And she was
as happy as a lark when we went back the next day and she played her
heart out.
There are many other examples that I could give (I won't bore you
with them). When it happens to happen in front of other people, it
never ceases to amaze them when she leaves without a fight or fit.
All I tell them is that I don't just say "no" and drag her out of
the store of take something away. I tell her why it's happening and
she is (almost always) ok with it. It's not something that someone
told me to do, I just figured that I would want to know why someone
was telling me no so why wouldn't I extend that same courtesy to my
daughter?
Melissa
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
<<I can't count how many people have defended the idea that children
need to be told "no" frequently by their parents - by saying that
they got it from John Rosemond as if that makes the idea "more
right" because it came from an expert.
-pam>>
This reminded me of something I was thinking about earlier this
morning.
I have always (even when my daughter was first born and supposedly
couldn't understand me) explained why we couldn't do something that
she wanted to do rather than simply saying "no."
For example: we went to sign her up for Gymboree a while back. Of
course, as soon as we walked in the door, she wanted to play. At
that time, it was the babies in there and she wasn't able to right
then. So, I got down to her level and explained that the babies
were playing today but that we were going to come back tomrrow and
then she could play. She looked at me, said "ok" and walked out
without a fight. She spent the rest of the day telling everyone who
would listen that she was playing at Gymboree tomorrow. And she was
as happy as a lark when we went back the next day and she played her
heart out.
There are many other examples that I could give (I won't bore you
with them). When it happens to happen in front of other people, it
never ceases to amaze them when she leaves without a fight or fit.
All I tell them is that I don't just say "no" and drag her out of
the store of take something away. I tell her why it's happening and
she is (almost always) ok with it. It's not something that someone
told me to do, I just figured that I would want to know why someone
was telling me no so why wouldn't I extend that same courtesy to my
daughter?
Melissa
melissa4123
--- In [email protected], "Olga"
<mccluskieo@b...> wrote:
<<it must be a release for some parents when they have been
struggling with their child and an "expert" says the child has ADD.
Now it is not the schools fault, the parent's fault or even the
child's fault and while they are at it, let's medicate, isolate and
make it clear to the other hundreds of students that there is
something wrong here. For the rest of that child's life into
adulthood, when they fail they can say "I have ADD, it is difficult
for me to concentrate at work. It is really not my fault."
Olga :)>>
My MIL and I were talking about this the other day. "they,"
the "experts" tried to label my nephew with ADHD. Yes, he's high
strung (he's a 6 year old little boy) and I'm sure he's hard for the
teacher to control (another reason to keep your kids at home) but
ADHD? I don't think so. He's fine when he's with me and/or his
parents. Of course, he's not tied to a desk most of the day when
he's with us. Thank goodness my BIL (who also happens to be the
principle) stepped in and refused to let him be labeled with ADHD
and medicated unlike some parents who would have gladly taken the
pills to "calm" him down. My nephew is also with another teacher
now with whom he's doing much better.
<mccluskieo@b...> wrote:
<<it must be a release for some parents when they have been
struggling with their child and an "expert" says the child has ADD.
Now it is not the schools fault, the parent's fault or even the
child's fault and while they are at it, let's medicate, isolate and
make it clear to the other hundreds of students that there is
something wrong here. For the rest of that child's life into
adulthood, when they fail they can say "I have ADD, it is difficult
for me to concentrate at work. It is really not my fault."
Olga :)>>
My MIL and I were talking about this the other day. "they,"
the "experts" tried to label my nephew with ADHD. Yes, he's high
strung (he's a 6 year old little boy) and I'm sure he's hard for the
teacher to control (another reason to keep your kids at home) but
ADHD? I don't think so. He's fine when he's with me and/or his
parents. Of course, he's not tied to a desk most of the day when
he's with us. Thank goodness my BIL (who also happens to be the
principle) stepped in and refused to let him be labeled with ADHD
and medicated unlike some parents who would have gladly taken the
pills to "calm" him down. My nephew is also with another teacher
now with whom he's doing much better.
Olga
That reminds me of my SIL who is a special ed "expert". Her son
started Kindergarten last year with the same teacher his sister had
the year before (a teacher my SIL had the luxury of picking out but
that is another story..grrr). His sister had done exceptionally
well, but then she is the typical high achiever. He, although
reading even better then his sister, struggled with his behavior.
My SIL was going mad having her friends observe as well as herself
to try and figure out what was wrong, even considering if it could
be ADD. Her son can sit for hours and play on his own quietly, what
the heck is she thinking? She is so conditioned to believe that if
you don't fit in the hole there must be something wrong with the
peg. This year, he has a new teacher (another one handpicked,
teacher of the year, etc) but is doing great. Turns out he was
bored and this teacher is challanging him more. How many kids are
labled or tested only because they do not match their learning style
with their teacher's teaching style.
My other SIL had a similar problem with her 1st grader who loved
school and did excellent last year. This year he was having all
these behavior issues and his teacher commented that he had a
language issue. The kid is 6 and can read all the instructions
during playstation games as well as write extremely well written
sentences. She got him moved to another teacher and is he doing
great. Hopefully, everything is great from here because chances of
her being able to move him or her daughter in the next 10 years is
slim to none.
Olga :)
started Kindergarten last year with the same teacher his sister had
the year before (a teacher my SIL had the luxury of picking out but
that is another story..grrr). His sister had done exceptionally
well, but then she is the typical high achiever. He, although
reading even better then his sister, struggled with his behavior.
My SIL was going mad having her friends observe as well as herself
to try and figure out what was wrong, even considering if it could
be ADD. Her son can sit for hours and play on his own quietly, what
the heck is she thinking? She is so conditioned to believe that if
you don't fit in the hole there must be something wrong with the
peg. This year, he has a new teacher (another one handpicked,
teacher of the year, etc) but is doing great. Turns out he was
bored and this teacher is challanging him more. How many kids are
labled or tested only because they do not match their learning style
with their teacher's teaching style.
My other SIL had a similar problem with her 1st grader who loved
school and did excellent last year. This year he was having all
these behavior issues and his teacher commented that he had a
language issue. The kid is 6 and can read all the instructions
during playstation games as well as write extremely well written
sentences. She got him moved to another teacher and is he doing
great. Hopefully, everything is great from here because chances of
her being able to move him or her daughter in the next 10 years is
slim to none.
Olga :)
> My MIL and I were talking about this the other day. "they,"the
> the "experts" tried to label my nephew with ADHD. Yes, he's high
> strung (he's a 6 year old little boy) and I'm sure he's hard for
> teacher to control (another reason to keep your kids at home) but
> ADHD? I don't think so. He's fine when he's with me and/or his
> parents. Of course, he's not tied to a desk most of the day when
> he's with us. Thank goodness my BIL (who also happens to be the
> principle) stepped in and refused to let him be labeled with ADHD
> and medicated unlike some parents who would have gladly taken the
> pills to "calm" him down. My nephew is also with another teacher
> now with whom he's doing much better.
Holly Furgason
My 14 yo had kind of the same experience when she was 10. We were
taking the TAAS on line and one of the questions asked if a carpenter
has a board 10' long and needs a board that was 6'7" long, how much
will he need to cut off. After sitting for a few minutes looking
confused, she said "It doesn't matter- he'll just measure 6'7" and
then cut." That ws the last question she did.
I was the director of an educational center last year where I tutored
kids and helped them with their school work and this year help kids
with their homework at the local government school. From kindergarten
up, the work is confusing because it has no application in the real
world. It's easy to say illogical things when you're not following
any logic.
Holly
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school
--- In [email protected], Wife2Vegman
<wifetovegman2002@y...> wrote:
than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
taking the TAAS on line and one of the questions asked if a carpenter
has a board 10' long and needs a board that was 6'7" long, how much
will he need to cut off. After sitting for a few minutes looking
confused, she said "It doesn't matter- he'll just measure 6'7" and
then cut." That ws the last question she did.
I was the director of an educational center last year where I tutored
kids and helped them with their school work and this year help kids
with their homework at the local government school. From kindergarten
up, the work is confusing because it has no application in the real
world. It's easy to say illogical things when you're not following
any logic.
Holly
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school
--- In [email protected], Wife2Vegman
<wifetovegman2002@y...> wrote:
> I told the story before of how Sarah didn't understandchildren's growth into the world is not that it is a better school
> that when she took one many years ago, and would
> analyze each question.
>
> One question was if a horse ate 10 apples in 5 days,
> how many did he eat each day? They wanted her to
> choose 2, of course, but she sat there and worried
> about it for 15 minutes. What if the horse ate 3 one
> day and 1 the next? How could she know?
>
> I found myself saying, "don't think about it, just
> pick an answer and move on". I told my child not to
> think! YIKES!
>
> > Laying down our
> > thoughts in deference to an expert's, even if they
> > don't seem right to us.
> > Some people do. No people should.
> >
> > Sandra
>
> Many churches teach this. Don't rely on your emotions
> or feelings. They are not reliable because they are
> influenced by the sinful desires in your heart. Spank
> your child even if you feel nauseous and lightheaded
> at the thought of it, because you must not let those
> emotions keep you from doing what is right.
>
> By turning off and ignoring the cues that something is
> wrong, eventually we become numb to those cues. Just
> like a baby who is left crying for long enough will
> stop, because they have lost hope.
>
> Sometimes it is too painful to turn those receptors
> back on, too. Change is good, but can rend and tear
> as well. But the mere struggle is part of the
> rebirthing and letting go process.
>
> Those who can't bear the pain go back to the way they
> know. Those that push through it and beyond end
> up.....unschooling! WHEE!
>
>
>
>
> =====
> --Susan in VA
> WifetoVegman
>
> What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for
than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
>
> __________________________________
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> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
Elizabeth Roberts
Comments have been made about parenting magazines/books. I no longer read those either, I used to read them mainly because I thought I was SUPPOSED to..after all, I'm a parent now, right? But after awhile I realized they just recycle the same articles over and over, in addition to that, most of it acted as if nobody had a brain of their own. I realized I never USED any of the information, tips, ideas, or anything else from the magazines; and that was it. It's been years now since I picked one up.
MamaBeth
Why not?!
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MamaBeth
Why not?!
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[email protected]
In a message dated 1/5/04 4:26:29 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< I like the interactive advice here better anyway. :-)
I take what fits and chew on the rest.
Popeye the Sailor Man
(toot toot)
(Of "I'm Popeye the Sailor Man,
I live in a garbage can...")
"Take what you need and leave the rest." --spoken in many Al-Anon meetings.
<< I like the interactive advice here better anyway. :-)
I take what fits and chew on the rest.
>>I eats the worms and spit out the germs
Popeye the Sailor Man
(toot toot)
(Of "I'm Popeye the Sailor Man,
I live in a garbage can...")
"Take what you need and leave the rest." --spoken in many Al-Anon meetings.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/5/04 5:35:18 PM, melissa4123@... writes:
<< It's not something that someone
told me to do, I just figured that I would want to know why someone
was telling me no so why wouldn't I extend that same courtesy to my
daughter? >>
When Kirby was three or so he tripped on a string that was tied between
stakes (marking where they were going to put a kind of barrier later). There was
grass, so it wasn't too bad, but I helped him up and walked him back a few
steps to show him what he tripped over, and to show him where it was strung, and
help him see that he was big enough to step over it.
An adult friend who saw me seemed amazed, and said so later. I guess he had
never seen anyone talk to a little kid that way about something, and he
thought it was great that I had explained to Kirby what caused him to fall.
I was amazed that he would be amazed, and after that I started watching to
see how other parents reacted when a toddler fell. Horribly, often. I've seen
people grab the kid up by one arm and get angry with them for falling. I've
seen them just say "Oh, you're not hurt," without even looking. (I always ask
the child if he's hurt, instead of telling him he's not.)
So maybe explaining to a child IS really rare, but it's not rare among
attachment parenting families or unschoolers, in my experience. And maybe it's that
level of communication and concern that makes unschooling work.
Sandra
<< It's not something that someone
told me to do, I just figured that I would want to know why someone
was telling me no so why wouldn't I extend that same courtesy to my
daughter? >>
When Kirby was three or so he tripped on a string that was tied between
stakes (marking where they were going to put a kind of barrier later). There was
grass, so it wasn't too bad, but I helped him up and walked him back a few
steps to show him what he tripped over, and to show him where it was strung, and
help him see that he was big enough to step over it.
An adult friend who saw me seemed amazed, and said so later. I guess he had
never seen anyone talk to a little kid that way about something, and he
thought it was great that I had explained to Kirby what caused him to fall.
I was amazed that he would be amazed, and after that I started watching to
see how other parents reacted when a toddler fell. Horribly, often. I've seen
people grab the kid up by one arm and get angry with them for falling. I've
seen them just say "Oh, you're not hurt," without even looking. (I always ask
the child if he's hurt, instead of telling him he's not.)
So maybe explaining to a child IS really rare, but it's not rare among
attachment parenting families or unschoolers, in my experience. And maybe it's that
level of communication and concern that makes unschooling work.
Sandra
Michelle
I use to real all the magazines, and pull out articles and save them in a binder. Talk about anal. I finally threw them away, realizing that I never looked at them again.
Michelle
Elizabeth Roberts <mamabethuscg@...> wrote:
Comments have been made about parenting magazines/books. I no longer read those either, I used to read them mainly because I thought I was SUPPOSED to..after all, I'm a parent now, right? But after awhile I realized they just recycle the same articles over and over, in addition to that, most of it acted as if nobody had a brain of their own. I realized I never USED any of the information, tips, ideas, or anything else from the magazines; and that was it. It's been years now since I picked one up.
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Michelle
Elizabeth Roberts <mamabethuscg@...> wrote:
Comments have been made about parenting magazines/books. I no longer read those either, I used to read them mainly because I thought I was SUPPOSED to..after all, I'm a parent now, right? But after awhile I realized they just recycle the same articles over and over, in addition to that, most of it acted as if nobody had a brain of their own. I realized I never USED any of the information, tips, ideas, or anything else from the magazines; and that was it. It's been years now since I picked one up.
---------------------------------
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In a message dated 1/5/04 8:51:27 PM, marriedtomony1991@... writes:
<< I use to real all the magazines, and pull out articles and save them in a
binder. Talk about anal. I finally threw them away, realizing that I never
looked at them again. >>
I had saved folders of stuff when Kirby was little. The circumcision folder
was put to great use by other families, and I probably still have that
somewhere (but in this age of websites it's not as crucial). One article I loved
that really helped was someone's list of 50 things to try if a baby was crying
and you couldn't figure out what to do. I was nursing, so that was always my
#1. But other things on the list were things like provide more light; provide
less light; take some clothes off; put more clothes on. I thought it was
interesting to see the range of things that babies might be trying to communicate,
and it helped me to also go through the things that had happened before and
really try to pay attention to Kirby's face and posture to see if I could
discern what was helping and what was making him more frustrated.
Most of the articles, though, were one-time things and I had just saved them
like talismans.
What really helped me was La Leche League meetings, and seeing the variation
in the babies there, and seeing other mothers be really patient and creative
and responsive.
Sandra
<< I use to real all the magazines, and pull out articles and save them in a
binder. Talk about anal. I finally threw them away, realizing that I never
looked at them again. >>
I had saved folders of stuff when Kirby was little. The circumcision folder
was put to great use by other families, and I probably still have that
somewhere (but in this age of websites it's not as crucial). One article I loved
that really helped was someone's list of 50 things to try if a baby was crying
and you couldn't figure out what to do. I was nursing, so that was always my
#1. But other things on the list were things like provide more light; provide
less light; take some clothes off; put more clothes on. I thought it was
interesting to see the range of things that babies might be trying to communicate,
and it helped me to also go through the things that had happened before and
really try to pay attention to Kirby's face and posture to see if I could
discern what was helping and what was making him more frustrated.
Most of the articles, though, were one-time things and I had just saved them
like talismans.
What really helped me was La Leche League meetings, and seeing the variation
in the babies there, and seeing other mothers be really patient and creative
and responsive.
Sandra
joylyn
Wife2Vegman wrote:
of the year, before vacation. The bottom portion was a contract between
me and the kid, about how they would read three books over vacation and
write summaries on them. The top portion, which they took home was a
letter letting the parents know this. It began, Dear Parents:. 3/4 of
the kids, even though I had read the letter out loud, asked me, "what do
I do with this." I said "read it and figure it out." They would read
it and all of them figured it out. But they are so used to doing what
they were told.... Not figuring it out.
And, first day back, about 1/3 of the kids had not done the essays.
They read the books but "didn't know they were supposed to write
essays. So I pulled out the contract "did you read this before you
signed it?" (I had read it out loud in class too!) "No, I didn't read
it." "And yet you signed your name to it!" Amazing. I am teaching my
students, best that I can, to think. Not all teachers do. It's easier
if they don't think and just follow directions.
be generic pictures of a horse, a rabbit, a dog, etc. Lexie would think
it through... is it a baby horse? A little horse? A pony? is it a large
dog? I had to teach her to think simply...
Joylyn
>This is so true. I remember a letter I sent home to parents at the end
> --- SandraDodd@... wrote:
> > Someone went off on that saying she was
> > tired of hearing people
> > talk about "critical thinking," that she didn't even
> > know what they meant and she
> > thought it was just school buzz-word and why was I
> > recommending a schoolish
> > thing (or some such).
> >
> > I was kind of stunned. Can school ruin even
> > people's desire to be critical
> > thinkers?
>
> YES YES YES!
>
> Kids are taught NOT to think, just open up like little
> birds, have the information for the standardized
> testing stuffed in, and then regurgitate it on the
> test to make room for the next batch.
of the year, before vacation. The bottom portion was a contract between
me and the kid, about how they would read three books over vacation and
write summaries on them. The top portion, which they took home was a
letter letting the parents know this. It began, Dear Parents:. 3/4 of
the kids, even though I had read the letter out loud, asked me, "what do
I do with this." I said "read it and figure it out." They would read
it and all of them figured it out. But they are so used to doing what
they were told.... Not figuring it out.
And, first day back, about 1/3 of the kids had not done the essays.
They read the books but "didn't know they were supposed to write
essays. So I pulled out the contract "did you read this before you
signed it?" (I had read it out loud in class too!) "No, I didn't read
it." "And yet you signed your name to it!" Amazing. I am teaching my
students, best that I can, to think. Not all teachers do. It's easier
if they don't think and just follow directions.
>Lexie did the same thing. Which Animal is larger, and then there would
>
> I told the story before of how Sarah didn't understand
> that when she took one many years ago, and would
> analyze each question.
>
> One question was if a horse ate 10 apples in 5 days,
> how many did he eat each day? They wanted her to
> choose 2, of course, but she sat there and worried
> about it for 15 minutes. What if the horse ate 3 one
> day and 1 the next? How could she know?
be generic pictures of a horse, a rabbit, a dog, etc. Lexie would think
it through... is it a baby horse? A little horse? A pony? is it a large
dog? I had to teach her to think simply...
>yep, YIKES!
> I found myself saying, "don't think about it, just
> pick an answer and move on". I told my child not to
> think! YIKES!
Joylyn