Re: Teaching Ourselves (was Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] experts)
Danielle E. Conger
At 04:29 PM 1/2/2004 -0800, Wife2Vegman wrote:
good, if I do say so myself. You guys have already heard about my pond,
multiple times. <LOL> I've researched a lot on edible landscaping and
native landscaping. We have a vegetable garden and an herb garden that
doubles as a butterfly garden. We're working on attracting as many
butterflies and birds as we can.
We've also been learning American Sign Language, and I've been brushing up
on my French (we were hoping to travel with dh, who just had a conference
in Paris, but $$$ was lacking--isn't it always!) and playing Madeline with
the kids in French. I have always been into languages. I'm pretty good with
French, not fluent, but pretty good. I also took several years of Spanish
and a summer of Chinese at the community college. Looks like dh might have
a conference next December in Puerto Rico, so this next year I'll be going
back to the Spanish, I'm sure.
I've also been reading lots on unschooling and, more recently, on food
allergies. I'm way into Lord of the Rings--reading the trilogy was my
reward to myself after I finished defending my thesis. I had never read it
before, and I read it while we were in Key West. Dh had a conference (a
major perk! <g>) at a really posh resort. There was a private beach, but no
real access to the water along the beach because of the reef. But there
were lots of great tidal pools in the rocks for the kids to splash in. It
was truly a slice of heaven!
--danielle
>I hope others would be willing to share ways they areI've been learning gardening and landscaping, and my yard looks pretty darn
>educating themselves while unschooling their children,
>and possibly how pursuing their own interests have
>sparked similar interests in their kids.
good, if I do say so myself. You guys have already heard about my pond,
multiple times. <LOL> I've researched a lot on edible landscaping and
native landscaping. We have a vegetable garden and an herb garden that
doubles as a butterfly garden. We're working on attracting as many
butterflies and birds as we can.
We've also been learning American Sign Language, and I've been brushing up
on my French (we were hoping to travel with dh, who just had a conference
in Paris, but $$$ was lacking--isn't it always!) and playing Madeline with
the kids in French. I have always been into languages. I'm pretty good with
French, not fluent, but pretty good. I also took several years of Spanish
and a summer of Chinese at the community college. Looks like dh might have
a conference next December in Puerto Rico, so this next year I'll be going
back to the Spanish, I'm sure.
I've also been reading lots on unschooling and, more recently, on food
allergies. I'm way into Lord of the Rings--reading the trilogy was my
reward to myself after I finished defending my thesis. I had never read it
before, and I read it while we were in Key West. Dh had a conference (a
major perk! <g>) at a really posh resort. There was a private beach, but no
real access to the water along the beach because of the reef. But there
were lots of great tidal pools in the rocks for the kids to splash in. It
was truly a slice of heaven!
--danielle
Danielle E. Conger
At 09:00 PM 1/2/2004 -0500, ivorygrace7@... wrote:
all--languages have always been what's impressed me. Even from when I was a
little kid, I was always in awe of people who could speak more than one
language. Now, to me, that's a practical and impressive expertise! <g>
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I'm into studying foreign languages. I can read French and Russian fluentlyWow! That's impressive! Talking about degrees and expertise and
>and like to read French and Russian literature. I also study Mandarin and
>Mongolian Chinese, Vietnamese, Spanish, and Swedish.
all--languages have always been what's impressed me. Even from when I was a
little kid, I was always in awe of people who could speak more than one
language. Now, to me, that's a practical and impressive expertise! <g>
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/2/04 9:26:44 AM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< There's a new book out by two learned women (who strike me as real
experts, formally educated *and* worthy of being listened to) >>
Maybe the prejudice isn't with Lyle and me and Mary after all!
Maybe you think experts have to be formally educated.
I know armorers who have no formal education but whose work making or
repairing armor has been paid for by museums in New York and Germany and England. I
know costumers and shoemakers who learned what they know just to make things
for the SCA, who have been hired at living history museums and for movies and
documentaries, because they knew more than the professors organizing the
things. They were experts without formal education, acknowledged as experts, paid
money, credited...
I have a friend who authenticates antiques. Pre-Columbian art and Chinese
jade carvings and swords, mostly. He uses chemistry and microscopic anaylsis
to see what tools were used. He can spot and prove fakes. He is flown all
over the world, and things are shipped to his house all the time, the federal
express truck painstakingly pulling into his mountain yard and out two or three
times a week to bring priceless objects which he reports on and ships back.
He dropped out of college many years ago, was an artist from the time we were
kids, is a musician, eventually got a bachelor's degree in studio art (not
art history) to make his dad happy, and is an unquestionable expert in something
he never studied in college. Oh. He also teaches Tai Chi and Kung Fu, and
knows more about Chinese medicine than most people in our state, but has no
"degree" in that either, and has never practiced, but he does make potioly good
husband and father.
I won't even start on my friends who have degrees they don't use or never
understood in the first place.
Yes, sometimes a person has a degree AND experience and is worth listening
to, but the "worth listening to" is much more likely to come from the experience
and actual research than the piece of paper or the classroom time put in.
Sandra
<< There's a new book out by two learned women (who strike me as real
experts, formally educated *and* worthy of being listened to) >>
Maybe the prejudice isn't with Lyle and me and Mary after all!
Maybe you think experts have to be formally educated.
I know armorers who have no formal education but whose work making or
repairing armor has been paid for by museums in New York and Germany and England. I
know costumers and shoemakers who learned what they know just to make things
for the SCA, who have been hired at living history museums and for movies and
documentaries, because they knew more than the professors organizing the
things. They were experts without formal education, acknowledged as experts, paid
money, credited...
I have a friend who authenticates antiques. Pre-Columbian art and Chinese
jade carvings and swords, mostly. He uses chemistry and microscopic anaylsis
to see what tools were used. He can spot and prove fakes. He is flown all
over the world, and things are shipped to his house all the time, the federal
express truck painstakingly pulling into his mountain yard and out two or three
times a week to bring priceless objects which he reports on and ships back.
He dropped out of college many years ago, was an artist from the time we were
kids, is a musician, eventually got a bachelor's degree in studio art (not
art history) to make his dad happy, and is an unquestionable expert in something
he never studied in college. Oh. He also teaches Tai Chi and Kung Fu, and
knows more about Chinese medicine than most people in our state, but has no
"degree" in that either, and has never practiced, but he does make potioly good
husband and father.
I won't even start on my friends who have degrees they don't use or never
understood in the first place.
Yes, sometimes a person has a degree AND experience and is worth listening
to, but the "worth listening to" is much more likely to come from the experience
and actual research than the piece of paper or the classroom time put in.
Sandra
[email protected]
No. That misunderstanding is precisely why I spelled these descriptors
out as a series of three separate things, meaning to show I did not assume
them to be necessarily the same or dependent on each other - these are two
specific women who strike me as:
1) real experts,
*and*
2) formally educated,
*and*
3) worth listening to.
SandraDodd@... writes:
out as a series of three separate things, meaning to show I did not assume
them to be necessarily the same or dependent on each other - these are two
specific women who strike me as:
1) real experts,
*and*
2) formally educated,
*and*
3) worth listening to.
SandraDodd@... writes:
> In a message dated 1/2/04 9:26:44 AM, jrossedd@... writes:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> << There's a new book out by two learned women (who strike me as real
> experts, formally educated *and* worthy of being listened to) >>
>
> Maybe the prejudice isn't with Lyle and me and Mary after all!
>
> Maybe you think experts have to be formally educated.
>
Kelly Lenhart
>Maybe you think experts have to be formally educated.I think SOME do.
You can't do my father's job without being formally educated. He works with
a virus which can be used to deliver new genes so as to treat genetic
diseases. They are less than 2 years away from human trials to treat a form
of congenital blindness.
Do I think he needed every bit of classroom nonsense he went through to get
where he is? No, nor I would think does he. But no one was going to let
him do what he wanted to do with out them.
And I for one am glad he was willing to go through it. What he does is
important and good.
You can be an expert without formal education. You can have formal
education and still come out knowing nothing useful.
That does not make real experts useless or formal education an evil if it is
what you chose.
Kelly
(who just isn't too fond of absolutes)
[email protected]
In a message dated 01/02/2004 12:39:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mina@... writes:
things clearly! :)
JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mina@... writes:
> And I for one am glad he was willing to go through it. What he does isMy thanks to Kelly! Who, it would appear, is expert at saying tricky
> important and good.
>
> You can be an expert without formal education. You can have formal
> education and still come out knowing nothing useful.
>
> That does not make real experts useless or formal education an evil if it is
> what you chose.
>
> Kelly
> (who just isn't too fond of absolutes)
>
>
things clearly! :)
JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<< Maybe you think experts have to be formally educated.>>>
******************************************
My brother was the first one in our family to go to college. He went to
Texas Tech and learned how to drink lots of beer and how to two-step
exceptionally well. He dropped out as a Sophomore. Steve was then hired at
the nuclear plant in South Texas. He has worked there for 20 years,
starting as a technician and now as some sort of chemist.
He is flown all over the world to help with trouble shooting at nuclear
plants. It actually freaked me out that my dufus big brother (we used to
wail on each other endlessly) helps the world avoid nuclear accidents. Too
bizarre.
Julie S.
******************************************
My brother was the first one in our family to go to college. He went to
Texas Tech and learned how to drink lots of beer and how to two-step
exceptionally well. He dropped out as a Sophomore. Steve was then hired at
the nuclear plant in South Texas. He has worked there for 20 years,
starting as a technician and now as some sort of chemist.
He is flown all over the world to help with trouble shooting at nuclear
plants. It actually freaked me out that my dufus big brother (we used to
wail on each other endlessly) helps the world avoid nuclear accidents. Too
bizarre.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:46 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] experts
>
> In a message dated 1/2/04 9:26:44 AM, jrossedd@... writes:
>
> << There's a new book out by two learned women (who strike me as real
> experts, formally educated *and* worthy of being listened to) >>
>
> Maybe the prejudice isn't with Lyle and me and Mary after all!
>
>>
> I know armorers who have no formal education but whose work making or
> repairing armor has been paid for by museums in New York and Germany and
England. I
> know costumers and shoemakers who learned what they know just to make
things
> for the SCA, who have been hired at living history museums and for movies
and
> documentaries, because they knew more than the professors organizing the
> things. They were experts without formal education, acknowledged as
experts, paid
> money, credited...
>
> I have a friend who authenticates antiques. Pre-Columbian art and Chinese
> jade carvings and swords, mostly. He uses chemistry and microscopic
anaylsis
> to see what tools were used. He can spot and prove fakes. He is flown
all
> over the world, and things are shipped to his house all the time, the
federal
> express truck painstakingly pulling into his mountain yard and out two or
three
> times a week to bring priceless objects which he reports on and ships
back.
>
> He dropped out of college many years ago, was an artist from the time we
were
> kids, is a musician, eventually got a bachelor's degree in studio art (not
> art history) to make his dad happy, and is an unquestionable expert in
something
> he never studied in college. Oh. He also teaches Tai Chi and Kung Fu,
and
> knows more about Chinese medicine than most people in our state, but has
no
> "degree" in that either, and has never practiced, but he does make potioly
good
> husband and father.
>
> I won't even start on my friends who have degrees they don't use or never
> understood in the first place.
>
> Yes, sometimes a person has a degree AND experience and is worth listening
> to, but the "worth listening to" is much more likely to come from the
experience
> and actual research than the piece of paper or the classroom time put in.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<You can't do my father's job without being formally educated>>>
Actually, I think the more accurate description is that no one will allow
you to do his job without being formally educated. Is it not possible that
if your dad took an apprentice, just somebody who was really interested in
genetics but didn't have a degree, he would be able to teach them on the
job?
See my post about my brother the nuclear chemist
Julie S.---who is teaching herself herbal medicine, organic gardening,
parenting, philosophy and goddess traditions currently
Actually, I think the more accurate description is that no one will allow
you to do his job without being formally educated. Is it not possible that
if your dad took an apprentice, just somebody who was really interested in
genetics but didn't have a degree, he would be able to teach them on the
job?
See my post about my brother the nuclear chemist
Julie S.---who is teaching herself herbal medicine, organic gardening,
parenting, philosophy and goddess traditions currently
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly Lenhart" <mina@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] experts
> >Maybe you think experts have to be formally educated.
>
> I think SOME do.
>
> . He works with
> a virus which can be used to deliver new genes so as to treat genetic
> diseases. They are less than 2 years away from human trials to treat a
form
> of congenital blindness.
>
> Do I think he needed every bit of classroom nonsense he went through to
get
> where he is? No, nor I would think does he. But no one was going to let
> him do what he wanted to do with out them.
>
> And I for one am glad he was willing to go through it. What he does is
> important and good.
>
> You can be an expert without formal education. You can have formal
> education and still come out knowing nothing useful.
>
> That does not make real experts useless or formal education an evil if it
is
> what you chose.
>
> Kelly
> (who just isn't too fond of absolutes)
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/2/04 10:37:56 AM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< No. That misunderstanding is precisely why I spelled these descriptors
out as a series of three separate things, meaning to show I did not assume
them to be necessarily the same or dependent on each other - these are two
specific women who strike me as:
1) real experts,
*and*
2) formally educated,
*and*
3) worth listening to. >>
Okay. I see it now.
Sorry for the misunderstanding then!
Sandra
<< No. That misunderstanding is precisely why I spelled these descriptors
out as a series of three separate things, meaning to show I did not assume
them to be necessarily the same or dependent on each other - these are two
specific women who strike me as:
1) real experts,
*and*
2) formally educated,
*and*
3) worth listening to. >>
Okay. I see it now.
Sorry for the misunderstanding then!
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/2/04 10:39:01 AM, mina@... writes:
<< >Maybe you think experts have to be formally educated.
I think SOME do. >>
Yes.
Some do, some don't, education doesn't create expertise, but sometimes
expertise requires formal education.
Not all cats are kittens and there are some three legged dogs.
There are still many cuddly kittens and there are plenty of four-legged dogs.
Sandra
<< >Maybe you think experts have to be formally educated.
I think SOME do. >>
Yes.
Some do, some don't, education doesn't create expertise, but sometimes
expertise requires formal education.
Not all cats are kittens and there are some three legged dogs.
There are still many cuddly kittens and there are plenty of four-legged dogs.
Sandra
zenmomma2kids
<<<You can't do my father's job without being formally educated>>>
But I'll bet there was a lot more to your father's education than
simply going to school. To do the amazing work that he is doing would
seem to me to almost require a passion for the subject. (Not subject
as in school, but I can't think of a better word right now.) I'm sure
the learning happened before, during and after his school years. His
advanced schooling was the culmination of all his learning, not the
beginning of it. Nor was it all of it.
It's not that I don't think college level schooling has its place. I
do. It's just that we can get the "I NEED to go to school to be
educated" mentality everywhere. I saw a PSA for mentoring recently
that had the guy saying one of his biggest jobs as a mentor was to
find ways to keep the kid in school. Huh?
On a list such as this, I think it's helpful to talk about the out of
the box ways of getting an education.
Life is good.
~Mary
But I'll bet there was a lot more to your father's education than
simply going to school. To do the amazing work that he is doing would
seem to me to almost require a passion for the subject. (Not subject
as in school, but I can't think of a better word right now.) I'm sure
the learning happened before, during and after his school years. His
advanced schooling was the culmination of all his learning, not the
beginning of it. Nor was it all of it.
It's not that I don't think college level schooling has its place. I
do. It's just that we can get the "I NEED to go to school to be
educated" mentality everywhere. I saw a PSA for mentoring recently
that had the guy saying one of his biggest jobs as a mentor was to
find ways to keep the kid in school. Huh?
On a list such as this, I think it's helpful to talk about the out of
the box ways of getting an education.
Life is good.
~Mary
Kelly Lenhart
<<<You can't do my father's job without being formally educated>>>
extreme. You are, of course, technically correct. And in the old days,
when my father would have been more of an alchemist (grin) that would have
been how it was.
But it's not reality now.
So, yes, you are correct and I'll re-phrase it: "You won't be permitted to
do some jobs without being formally educated. So, if you want to do that
job, you will also be chosing formal education for at least a time."
on my goddess traditions stuff, too.
Kelly
>Actually, I think the more accurate description is that no one will allowI would think that it COULD be done, but would not be efficent in the
>you to do his job without being formally educated. Is it not possible that
>if your dad took an apprentice, just somebody who was really interested in
>genetics but didn't have a degree, he would be able to teach them on the
>job?
extreme. You are, of course, technically correct. And in the old days,
when my father would have been more of an alchemist (grin) that would have
been how it was.
But it's not reality now.
So, yes, you are correct and I'll re-phrase it: "You won't be permitted to
do some jobs without being formally educated. So, if you want to do that
job, you will also be chosing formal education for at least a time."
>Julie S.---who is teaching herself herbal medicine, organic gardening,Cool. I'm teaching myself soapmaking, aromatherapy, parenting and working
>parenting, philosophy and goddess traditions currently
on my goddess traditions stuff, too.
Kelly
Kelly Lenhart
<<<You can't do my father's job without being formally educated>>>
what makes him so good at it. I've just been looking him on the internet,
just on a whim, and damn, he's been honored all over the place, people call
him things like eminant. I'm very proud of him.
I can see your point, but as always, it's when the phrases come out as
absolutes that folks start to get cranky.
Formal education is not always a complete waste of time. It is also not the
only way to get where you want to be, most of the time. And frequently, it
isn't even the best way, by far.
Maybe it's a walk then run idea. If you are already comfortable that there
are other ways, then thinking about doing formal education for somethings,
some time, if you want, isn't a big deal. If you are still hung up about
"school" being the only way, then you need to work on that first.
Kelly
>But I'll bet there was a lot more to your father's education thanOh, agreed. He does have a passion for it. And that is a large part of
>simply going to school. To do the amazing work that he is doing would
>seem to me to almost require a passion for the subject.
what makes him so good at it. I've just been looking him on the internet,
just on a whim, and damn, he's been honored all over the place, people call
him things like eminant. I'm very proud of him.
>It's not that I don't think college level schooling has its place. Ihelpful to >talk about the out of the box ways of getting an education.
>do. It's just that we can get the "I NEED to go to school to be
>educated" mentality everywhere. On a list such as this, I think it's
I can see your point, but as always, it's when the phrases come out as
absolutes that folks start to get cranky.
Formal education is not always a complete waste of time. It is also not the
only way to get where you want to be, most of the time. And frequently, it
isn't even the best way, by far.
Maybe it's a walk then run idea. If you are already comfortable that there
are other ways, then thinking about doing formal education for somethings,
some time, if you want, isn't a big deal. If you are still hung up about
"school" being the only way, then you need to work on that first.
Kelly
zenmomma2kids
>>Maybe it's a walk then run idea. If you are already comfortablethat there are other ways, then thinking about doing formal education
for somethings, some time, if you want, isn't a big deal. If you are
still hung up about "school" being the only way, then you need to
work on that first.>>
Exactly.
And that's why we like to clarify these things and talk about them
and put them into an unschooling perspecctive here on this list. :o)
Life is good.
~Mary
Wife2Vegman
--- "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@...> wrote:
I hope others would be willing to share ways they are
educating themselves while unschooling their children,
and possibly how pursuing their own interests have
sparked similar interests in their kids.
Susan
who has learned on her own about nutrition and
vegetarianism, different homeschooling styles, gentle
parenting, how to find anything she needs to know on
the internet, and still enjoys playing her flute on
occasion.
AND who has learned quite a bit from her children
about nature and gundams and mythbusters and history.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
>This is very interesting to me...
> Julie S.---who is teaching herself herbal medicine,
> organic gardening,
> parenting, philosophy and goddess traditions
> currently
I hope others would be willing to share ways they are
educating themselves while unschooling their children,
and possibly how pursuing their own interests have
sparked similar interests in their kids.
Susan
who has learned on her own about nutrition and
vegetarianism, different homeschooling styles, gentle
parenting, how to find anything she needs to know on
the internet, and still enjoys playing her flute on
occasion.
AND who has learned quite a bit from her children
about nature and gundams and mythbusters and history.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
J. Stauffer
<<<teaching myself soapmaking>>>
I have been making goat milk soap lately and just love it. I have a book
called "Milk-based Soaps". It has lots of recipes and the lady uses a
blender....no more stirring for hours on end.
Julie S.
I have been making goat milk soap lately and just love it. I have a book
called "Milk-based Soaps". It has lots of recipes and the lady uses a
blender....no more stirring for hours on end.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly Lenhart" <mina@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] experts
> <<<You can't do my father's job without being formally educated>>>
>
> >Actually, I think the more accurate description is that no one will allow
> >you to do his job without being formally educated. Is it not possible
that
> >if your dad took an apprentice, just somebody who was really interested
in
> >genetics but didn't have a degree, he would be able to teach them on the
> >job?
>
> I would think that it COULD be done, but would not be efficent in the
> extreme. You are, of course, technically correct. And in the old days,
> when my father would have been more of an alchemist (grin) that would have
> been how it was.
>
> But it's not reality now.
>
> So, yes, you are correct and I'll re-phrase it: "You won't be permitted
to
> do some jobs without being formally educated. So, if you want to do that
> job, you will also be chosing formal education for at least a time."
>
> >Julie S.---who is teaching herself herbal medicine, organic gardening,
> >parenting, philosophy and goddess traditions currently
>
> Cool. I'm , aromatherapy, parenting and working
> on my goddess traditions stuff, too.
>
> Kelly
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
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In a message dated 1/2/2004 8:15:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
Marcia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
> I have been making goat milk soap lately and just love it. I have a booksounds cool. I'm very interested in that. Do you have your own goats?
> called "Milk-based Soaps". It has lots of recipes and the lady uses a
> blender....no more stirring for hours on end.
Marcia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/2/04 5:05:14 PM, mina@... writes:
<< Formal education is not always a complete waste of time. >>
I don't think anyone said that.
The kernel of it was the weird idea that a master's in education would help
homeschooling.
THAT would be a complete waste of time.
And worse, if it involved separation of the parent and child, in that case,
for that purpose.
Sandra
<< Formal education is not always a complete waste of time. >>
I don't think anyone said that.
The kernel of it was the weird idea that a master's in education would help
homeschooling.
THAT would be a complete waste of time.
And worse, if it involved separation of the parent and child, in that case,
for that purpose.
Sandra
[email protected]
I'm into studying foreign languages. I can read French and Russian fluently
and like to read French and Russian literature. I also study Mandarin and
Mongolian Chinese, Vietnamese, Spanish, and Swedish.
All of my children have picked up an interest in foreign languages. Emily
considers French her 2nd language. My other children have mostly been into
learning Spanish; I think due to the amount of media available in Spanish. I
started learning Vietnamese and Swedish due to Emily's interest. We have a lot
of Vietnamese-American neighbors and our ancestors were mostly from Sweden. I
mostly use resources from the library when studying languages. We started
learning Swedish in September, and it has been difficult due to lack of a variety
of resources. Emily will frequent Swedish chat rooms, and we have a real
good Swedish-English dictionary. While thumbing through it, 11yo ds and 9 yo dd
noticed right away that it contains *all* American words, LOL!
For Christmas, I received a computer program for learning German from my
ex-husband. Emily was so excited when she saw it, exclaiming that now we can
learn German too.
--Jacqueline, wondering if ex-husband knows her a little too well!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and like to read French and Russian literature. I also study Mandarin and
Mongolian Chinese, Vietnamese, Spanish, and Swedish.
All of my children have picked up an interest in foreign languages. Emily
considers French her 2nd language. My other children have mostly been into
learning Spanish; I think due to the amount of media available in Spanish. I
started learning Vietnamese and Swedish due to Emily's interest. We have a lot
of Vietnamese-American neighbors and our ancestors were mostly from Sweden. I
mostly use resources from the library when studying languages. We started
learning Swedish in September, and it has been difficult due to lack of a variety
of resources. Emily will frequent Swedish chat rooms, and we have a real
good Swedish-English dictionary. While thumbing through it, 11yo ds and 9 yo dd
noticed right away that it contains *all* American words, LOL!
For Christmas, I received a computer program for learning German from my
ex-husband. Emily was so excited when she saw it, exclaiming that now we can
learn German too.
--Jacqueline, wondering if ex-husband knows her a little too well!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lenhart
<<<teaching myself soapmaking>>>
I'd kill to get some goat's milk. I tried using regular as the liquid but
the lye turned it a bright red and it got all yucky, so I bagged that and
used water.
I've heard of that book and have it on my list of "to gets."
Kelly
who has 2 CP batches curing and one HP batch that turned out fairly nicely
and bought herself a stick blender right away!
>I have been making goat milk soap lately and just love it. I have a bookJulie S.
>called "Milk-based Soaps". It has lots of recipes and the lady uses a
>blender....no more stirring for hours on end.
I'd kill to get some goat's milk. I tried using regular as the liquid but
the lye turned it a bright red and it got all yucky, so I bagged that and
used water.
I've heard of that book and have it on my list of "to gets."
Kelly
who has 2 CP batches curing and one HP batch that turned out fairly nicely
and bought herself a stick blender right away!
Kelly Lenhart
<< Formal education is not always a complete waste of time. >>
Kelly
>I don't think anyone said that.I think it's been implied.
>The kernel of it was the weird idea that a master's in education would helpNow this I totally agree with.
>homeschooling.
>THAT would be a complete waste of time.
>And worse, if it involved separation of the parent and child, in that case,Yeah, seems sort of backward.
>for that purpose.
Kelly
Pam Hartley
----------
is always a complete waste of time."
(If someone DID imply this and I've missed it, come clean so we can debate
it into the ground. Be a sport. ;)
What *does* get implied (and simply stated) here, pretty often, is that
formal education is not a be-all end-all for many of us and other mortals in
this country, is not necessary or desirable in many cases and many lives,
and that the current societal obsession with every child ending up with a
college degree is not only damaging and potentially damaging to many of
those self-same children, but it's also a bunch of hoo-ha.
IMHO of course. <g>
Pam
>From: [email protected]I don't think so. It would be kind of a silly implication. "Formal education
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 4334
>Date: Fri, Jan 2, 2004, 6:46 PM
>
> << Formal education is not always a complete waste of time. >>
>
>>I don't think anyone said that.
>
> I think it's been implied.
is always a complete waste of time."
(If someone DID imply this and I've missed it, come clean so we can debate
it into the ground. Be a sport. ;)
What *does* get implied (and simply stated) here, pretty often, is that
formal education is not a be-all end-all for many of us and other mortals in
this country, is not necessary or desirable in many cases and many lives,
and that the current societal obsession with every child ending up with a
college degree is not only damaging and potentially damaging to many of
those self-same children, but it's also a bunch of hoo-ha.
IMHO of course. <g>
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/2/2004 10:21:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
<<What *does* get implied (and simply stated) here, pretty often, is that
formal education is not a be-all end-all for many of us and other mortals in
this country, is not necessary or desirable in many cases and many lives,
and that the current societal obsession with every child ending up with a
college degree is not only damaging and potentially damaging to many of
those self-same children, but it's also a bunch of hoo-ha.>>
*Careerism* is one of the reasons I started homeschooling my children. I
think it's horrible the way schools teach that some ways of making money are
better than others and that a person is defined by their career. Kindergarteners
often have career exploration units...and of course lots of careers are left
out. Homemakers, small business owners, factory workers, and in general
anything that doesn't usually involve higher education. I've known parents who were
shocked when their 3 year old said that they wanted to be a maid or a fast
food worker or an ice cream truck driver.
My dad has worked as a millwright in a factory all his adult life. Although
he likes his job and makes enough money, he doesn't want to be defined as a
millwright. When people ask him what he does, he says he reads books and fishes!
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamhartley@... writes:
<<What *does* get implied (and simply stated) here, pretty often, is that
formal education is not a be-all end-all for many of us and other mortals in
this country, is not necessary or desirable in many cases and many lives,
and that the current societal obsession with every child ending up with a
college degree is not only damaging and potentially damaging to many of
those self-same children, but it's also a bunch of hoo-ha.>>
*Careerism* is one of the reasons I started homeschooling my children. I
think it's horrible the way schools teach that some ways of making money are
better than others and that a person is defined by their career. Kindergarteners
often have career exploration units...and of course lots of careers are left
out. Homemakers, small business owners, factory workers, and in general
anything that doesn't usually involve higher education. I've known parents who were
shocked when their 3 year old said that they wanted to be a maid or a fast
food worker or an ice cream truck driver.
My dad has worked as a millwright in a factory all his adult life. Although
he likes his job and makes enough money, he doesn't want to be defined as a
millwright. When people ask him what he does, he says he reads books and fishes!
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Bucknum's
<<<<----- Original Message -----
From: ivorygrace7@...
I'm into studying foreign languages. I can read French and Russian fluently
and like to read French and Russian literature. I also study Mandarin and
Mongolian Chinese, Vietnamese, Spanish, and Swedish.>>>>
Have you tried www.Rosettastone.com? They have complete programs or you can pay a monthly fee and access them online. Very cool method for almost any age too.
Teresa in Canada
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: ivorygrace7@...
I'm into studying foreign languages. I can read French and Russian fluently
and like to read French and Russian literature. I also study Mandarin and
Mongolian Chinese, Vietnamese, Spanish, and Swedish.>>>>
Have you tried www.Rosettastone.com? They have complete programs or you can pay a monthly fee and access them online. Very cool method for almost any age too.
Teresa in Canada
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lenhart
>*Careerism* is one of the reasons I started homeschooling my children.We are even known for it world wide--ask an American about themselves and
they will tell you what their job is! -sigh-
I like to answer with my vocations--I'm a mother and a writer.
Kelly
J. Stauffer
<<Do you have your own goats?>>
Yes, but we also drink the milk and show them. They are way too much
trouble to have just to make soap.
If you are interested, contact the American Dairy Goat Association to see if
you can get a list of breeders in your area. You can freeze the milk (it
stays good enough to drink for months) and make soap as is convenient.
Julie S.
Yes, but we also drink the milk and show them. They are way too much
trouble to have just to make soap.
If you are interested, contact the American Dairy Goat Association to see if
you can get a list of breeders in your area. You can freeze the milk (it
stays good enough to drink for months) and make soap as is convenient.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <MarSi77@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:24 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: experts
> In a message dated 1/2/2004 8:15:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jnjstau@... writes:
>
>
> > I have been making goat milk soap lately and just love it. I have a
book
> > called "Milk-based Soaps". It has lots of recipes and the lady uses a
> > blender....no more stirring for hours on end.
>
> sounds cool. I'm very interested in that. >
> Marcia
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<< I tried using regular as the liquid but
This will happen with goat milk too if it gets too hot. The book I
mentioned suggests putting the milk in a sink of ice water while adding the
lye and then adding it so slowly that it takes a full 5 minutes to get it
all added. I pour perhaps a teaspoon in and stir awhile and then pour a
little more, stir, etc.. It turns a beautiful light yellow.
julie S.
> the lye turned it a bright red and it got all yucky, so I bagged that and******************************************
> used water.>>>>>>
This will happen with goat milk too if it gets too hot. The book I
mentioned suggests putting the milk in a sink of ice water while adding the
lye and then adding it so slowly that it takes a full 5 minutes to get it
all added. I pour perhaps a teaspoon in and stir awhile and then pour a
little more, stir, etc.. It turns a beautiful light yellow.
julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly Lenhart" <mina@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] experts
> <<<teaching myself soapmaking>>>
>
> >I have been making goat milk soap lately and just love it. I have a book
> >called "Milk-based Soaps". It has lots of recipes and the lady uses a
> >blender....no more stirring for hours on end.
>
> Julie S.
>
>
> I'd kill to get some goat's milk. >
> I've heard of that book and have it on my list of "to gets."
>
> Kelly
> who has 2 CP batches curing and one HP batch that turned out fairly nicely
> and bought herself a stick blender right away!
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
Fetteroll
on 1/2/04 9:27 PM, Kelly Lenhart at mina@... wrote:
what idea or what part of an idea people are responding to so the intent of
a statement for or against higher learning isn't clear and is open to
misinterpretation.
Joyce
> << Formal education is not always a complete waste of time. >>I think the conversation has been full of misunderstandings. It's not clear
>
>> I don't think anyone said that.
>
> I think it's been implied.
what idea or what part of an idea people are responding to so the intent of
a statement for or against higher learning isn't clear and is open to
misinterpretation.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/2/04 8:21:25 PM, pamhartley@... writes:
<< not only damaging and potentially damaging to many of
those self-same children, but it's also a bunch of hoo-ha.
<<IMHO of course. <g> >>
Though hoo-ha is in the eye of the beholder, generally, if a person has not
really looked but only accepted what they see with peripheral vision (must be
important; everybody's either doing it or feeling crushed with guilt if they
didn't) then I'd consider the view from the eyes of the person who has really
thought and observed than the reflected view of "I don't know why, but it seems
to seem important" of people who are just going with the traditional flow.
The traditional flow would have had all our kids in school, and then those
who went to college would have been successes (in the eyes of their high school
guidance counsellors and state statisticians) and those who didn't would have
been failures. Failure to "live up to potential," at the very least.
I'm more interested in college being one of many options availble to
thoughtful, successful humans than it being what it so often seems now: one more test
of whether people will conform.
I don't think going to college for fun is bad. Going to college to get away
from home is a time-honored tradition going back to the Middle Ages, at least.
Going because grandma wants to pay for it sounds fabulous to me personally.
Borrowing thousands of dollars to see if you can stand it because it seems
daddy will withdraw all love and affection otherwise seems less cool by
exponential measurement.
Sandra
<< not only damaging and potentially damaging to many of
those self-same children, but it's also a bunch of hoo-ha.
<<IMHO of course. <g> >>
Though hoo-ha is in the eye of the beholder, generally, if a person has not
really looked but only accepted what they see with peripheral vision (must be
important; everybody's either doing it or feeling crushed with guilt if they
didn't) then I'd consider the view from the eyes of the person who has really
thought and observed than the reflected view of "I don't know why, but it seems
to seem important" of people who are just going with the traditional flow.
The traditional flow would have had all our kids in school, and then those
who went to college would have been successes (in the eyes of their high school
guidance counsellors and state statisticians) and those who didn't would have
been failures. Failure to "live up to potential," at the very least.
I'm more interested in college being one of many options availble to
thoughtful, successful humans than it being what it so often seems now: one more test
of whether people will conform.
I don't think going to college for fun is bad. Going to college to get away
from home is a time-honored tradition going back to the Middle Ages, at least.
Going because grandma wants to pay for it sounds fabulous to me personally.
Borrowing thousands of dollars to see if you can stand it because it seems
daddy will withdraw all love and affection otherwise seems less cool by
exponential measurement.
Sandra
[email protected]
<< My dad has worked as a millwright in a factory all his adult life.
Although
he likes his job and makes enough money, he doesn't want to be defined as a
millwright. When people ask him what he does, he says he reads books and
fishes!
Holly was asked what she wanted to be when she grew up and was being fed
options by the person asking. "An actress? a teacher?" (I forgot what else she
said.)
Holly looked at her politely but steadily and said "I'm only ten years old."
The woman was shocked. Most kids would have just rolled, and chosen
something from the limited list given to them, and then walked around for years
feeling at least somewhat committed to their "choice."
Sandra
Although
he likes his job and makes enough money, he doesn't want to be defined as a
millwright. When people ask him what he does, he says he reads books and
fishes!
>>That's cool.
Holly was asked what she wanted to be when she grew up and was being fed
options by the person asking. "An actress? a teacher?" (I forgot what else she
said.)
Holly looked at her politely but steadily and said "I'm only ten years old."
The woman was shocked. Most kids would have just rolled, and chosen
something from the limited list given to them, and then walked around for years
feeling at least somewhat committed to their "choice."
Sandra