New insight was Radical
J. Stauffer
As I've been sitting here posting I realized why this thread is making me
nuts (ok not really, just everybody at my house is gone for many days and
I'm already bored).
I used to work as a psychologist and I repeatedly saw therapists take things
that had correlations (like having many tattoos and antisocial personality
traits) and treating them as if the correlation were 100%. You have 7
tattoos, bet you have Borderline Personality. You have 9 tattoos, bet you
have Antisocial Personality. Rather than seeing tattoos or whatever as
possible indicators, they were seen and treated as diagnostic tests.
In my perception, the "have to" statements on this list have been treated
the same way. A poster would use "have to" as some short-hand answer and be
questioned about it (which I think is positive) but then no matter how often
she said "no, really, its not like that", she was told "I bet it is."
However, it may just be my perception due to sore spots with the above
issues. I'll think on it.
Julie S.---learning even when she is bored
nuts (ok not really, just everybody at my house is gone for many days and
I'm already bored).
I used to work as a psychologist and I repeatedly saw therapists take things
that had correlations (like having many tattoos and antisocial personality
traits) and treating them as if the correlation were 100%. You have 7
tattoos, bet you have Borderline Personality. You have 9 tattoos, bet you
have Antisocial Personality. Rather than seeing tattoos or whatever as
possible indicators, they were seen and treated as diagnostic tests.
In my perception, the "have to" statements on this list have been treated
the same way. A poster would use "have to" as some short-hand answer and be
questioned about it (which I think is positive) but then no matter how often
she said "no, really, its not like that", she was told "I bet it is."
However, it may just be my perception due to sore spots with the above
issues. I'll think on it.
Julie S.---learning even when she is bored
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Radical vs. Regular?
> on 12/26/03 7:41 AM, J. Stauffer at jnjstau@... wrote:
>
> > I agree that teaching and learning are 2 different things but that they
can
> > happen simultaneously, even within the same person. I always understand
> > karate better when I am teaching it.
>
> I understand unschooling better each time I try to explain it to someone
in
> basic terms.
>
> But does discussing when learning can come from teaching help anyone
> understand unschooling? Or does it make it more confusing?
>
> When people new to unschooling bring up teaching, they are thinking in
terms
> of the teacher as separate from the learner. Helping people picture how a
> teacher can learn while teaching doesn't help someone figure out how to
> "get" (since that may be their mindset at the time) their kids to learn.
> It's an answer to a question they aren't asking. In fact it's an answer
that
> looks like it suggests that teaching a child is still okay.
>
> Just because a point of view is true, doesn't mean discussing it helps
> someone understand unschooling. It *is* often hard to keep in mind how a
> discussion will affect someone who is trying to understand unschooling but
> that *is* the purpose of the list.
>
> > However, I don't agree that "have to" and "choose to" are necessarily on
> > different planes because what people have said over and over (not just
me)
> > is that they made the original choice and see it as very much a choice,
but
> > to keep that choice alive they "have to" do particular things. IF they
want
> > a black belt, they MUST train.
>
> How does discussing that help anyone unschool? That probably sounds like a
> snarky question, like it's code to say "Shut up about this subject." But
> it's a serious question.
>
> If I want to get to some place that's 30 minutes away, I have to leave at
> least 30 mintues before I want to get there. It's just reality.
>
> (Well I could speed if my estimate of 30 minutes is based on going at the
> speed limit, but at some point that won't make up for real life
> limitations.)
>
> If I want to unschool, I have to give up certain things.
>
> But people don't bring problems to the list that are based on not being
able
> to recognize when they have to do something. The problems they bring are
> based on thinking they have to and not being able to recognize when they
> have a choice.
>
> So can you bring up examples of when people's understanding of unschooling
> was hampered by not being able to recognize that reality has limitations?
>
> In this situation, to discuss it from an unschooling point of view, there
> wasn't anything that was clearer when expressed as have to. The have tos
> were limiting and suggestive to those still stuck with a lot of "have tos"
> in their lives that there was some pressure that was necessary for
learning.
>
> When problems are discussed on the list, the discussion is done with the
> idea that many people are reading along. If someone chooses to say
something
> a certain way that will make understanding unschooling confusing for
others,
> then it's going to be pulled out an examined.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
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[email protected]
For some it may be a lingo that they are accustomed to but if one is on a
list long enough they know the buzz words. It's also not just the buzz words it
is the delivery. For the main radical topic there have been over 40 posts on
it I suspect the drawing has been finished and etched in the minds of many.
Laura
*********************************************************
<<In a message dated 12/26/2003 2:14:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
As I've been sitting here posting I realized why this thread is making me
nuts (ok not really, just everybody at my house is gone for many days and
I'm already bored).
I used to work as a psychologist and I repeatedly saw therapists take things
that had correlations (like having many tattoos and antisocial personality
traits) and treating them as if the correlation were 100%. You have 7
tattoos, bet you have Borderline Personality. You have 9 tattoos, bet you
have Antisocial Personality. Rather than seeing tattoos or whatever as
possible indicators, they were seen and treated as diagnostic tests.
In my perception, the "have to" statements on this list have been treated
the same way. A poster would use "have to" as some short-hand answer and be
questioned about it (which I think is positive) but then no matter how often
she said "no, really, its not like that", she was told "I bet it is."
However, it may just be my perception due to sore spots with the above
issues. I'll think on it.
Julie S.---learning even when she is bored
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
list long enough they know the buzz words. It's also not just the buzz words it
is the delivery. For the main radical topic there have been over 40 posts on
it I suspect the drawing has been finished and etched in the minds of many.
Laura
*********************************************************
<<In a message dated 12/26/2003 2:14:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
As I've been sitting here posting I realized why this thread is making me
nuts (ok not really, just everybody at my house is gone for many days and
I'm already bored).
I used to work as a psychologist and I repeatedly saw therapists take things
that had correlations (like having many tattoos and antisocial personality
traits) and treating them as if the correlation were 100%. You have 7
tattoos, bet you have Borderline Personality. You have 9 tattoos, bet you
have Antisocial Personality. Rather than seeing tattoos or whatever as
possible indicators, they were seen and treated as diagnostic tests.
In my perception, the "have to" statements on this list have been treated
the same way. A poster would use "have to" as some short-hand answer and be
questioned about it (which I think is positive) but then no matter how often
she said "no, really, its not like that", she was told "I bet it is."
However, it may just be my perception due to sore spots with the above
issues. I'll think on it.
Julie S.---learning even when she is bored
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 12/26/03 2:11 PM, J. Stauffer at jnjstau@... wrote:
"have to" into what she was writing and 2) not recognizing where she was
contradicting herself.
Conversations should never be about a person, only about the ideas a person
brings. It doesn't make for useful discussions for people to individually
guess that even though someone is using words that are contradictory that
what is really happening in their lives is not contradictory.
We can't discuss posters lives. I can only discuss the picture their words
create. If someone is creating a contradictory image on the list, it doesn't
do anyone on the list who is trying to understand unschooling any favors if
people who are explaining unschooling to assume that contradictory
statements are just their way of writing and don't reflect what's going on
in their lives.
Joyce
> A poster would use "have to" as some short-hand answer and beI think it was because she was 1) not recognizing why people were reading
> questioned about it (which I think is positive) but then no matter how often
> she said "no, really, its not like that", she was told "I bet it is."
"have to" into what she was writing and 2) not recognizing where she was
contradicting herself.
Conversations should never be about a person, only about the ideas a person
brings. It doesn't make for useful discussions for people to individually
guess that even though someone is using words that are contradictory that
what is really happening in their lives is not contradictory.
We can't discuss posters lives. I can only discuss the picture their words
create. If someone is creating a contradictory image on the list, it doesn't
do anyone on the list who is trying to understand unschooling any favors if
people who are explaining unschooling to assume that contradictory
statements are just their way of writing and don't reflect what's going on
in their lives.
Joyce