Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Radical v regular
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/26/2003 10:00:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
If I take correctly Sandra's and Zenmamma's
(I think) points about joyful living and cleaning and always looking at
things from the most positive perspective, they dovetail pretty nicely with
this choice issue.
What if I just don't feel all joyful about doing the dishes? It's just not in
my character to whistle while I wash. Wouldn't it be dishonest of me to
pretend? Shall we stop using dishes? (I already use plenty of paper plates. :) ) Or
can't it be OK for me to be less-than-joyful about some things with the full
knowledge that I chose to, for instance, eat, and will probably be a little
happier with a cleaner sink? Although I can tell you I felt no qualms about
throwing away a whole set of dishes in my disreputable youth when DH and I just
decided not to wash them, that's not a practical solution now. But it's not
going to make me joyful in the short-term while I'm doing the darn things. (Yes, I
have a dishwasher, yes, I still hate doing dishes.)
Maybe dishes make other people joyful. Maybe that's why they think I should
be joyful while doing dishes. Hmmm . . . maybe I am OK not being joyful every
minute. Maybe this isn't a problem for me. Maybe I don't need someone to tell
me it's OK not to be ceaselessly joyful.
OK then -- maybe some people need help in being more joyful and some of us
don't and are happy finding joy where we do but not every second of the day and
this advice is for others on the list and doesn't apply to me.
Back to reading along. :)
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
If I take correctly Sandra's and Zenmamma's
(I think) points about joyful living and cleaning and always looking at
things from the most positive perspective, they dovetail pretty nicely with
this choice issue.
What if I just don't feel all joyful about doing the dishes? It's just not in
my character to whistle while I wash. Wouldn't it be dishonest of me to
pretend? Shall we stop using dishes? (I already use plenty of paper plates. :) ) Or
can't it be OK for me to be less-than-joyful about some things with the full
knowledge that I chose to, for instance, eat, and will probably be a little
happier with a cleaner sink? Although I can tell you I felt no qualms about
throwing away a whole set of dishes in my disreputable youth when DH and I just
decided not to wash them, that's not a practical solution now. But it's not
going to make me joyful in the short-term while I'm doing the darn things. (Yes, I
have a dishwasher, yes, I still hate doing dishes.)
Maybe dishes make other people joyful. Maybe that's why they think I should
be joyful while doing dishes. Hmmm . . . maybe I am OK not being joyful every
minute. Maybe this isn't a problem for me. Maybe I don't need someone to tell
me it's OK not to be ceaselessly joyful.
OK then -- maybe some people need help in being more joyful and some of us
don't and are happy finding joy where we do but not every second of the day and
this advice is for others on the list and doesn't apply to me.
Back to reading along. :)
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/26/03 9:27:48 AM, marbleface@... writes:
<< What if I just don't feel all joyful about doing the dishes? It's just not
in
my character to whistle while I wash. Wouldn't it be dishonest of me to
pretend? >>
It's not about honesty. We're not there to see you or to hear you grumbling
instead of washing.
I learned all this chore-choice thing from people at www.unschooling.com and
some of them explained it better. But knowing you could choose not to do
dishes does make it a choice. You could use paper plates. You could try to make
one of the kids do it (and that will involve negative side issues you might
want to choose to avoid).
You could buy new dishes at a garage sale and throw your old ones away if
you're just tired of looking at them. That might make doing dishes more fun.
I never had a dishwasher in my whole life until I was pregnant with Marty.
For my birthday I got a birthday card from my husband that said I could have
the major appliance of my choice. I didn't have a microwave either. I chose a
dishwasher. Knowing I had considered a microwave, Keith's parents gave us one
for Christmas, and then Marty was born January 14.
So until 15 years ago, I had washed dishes by hand my whole life.
I made games with them, and patterns, and used the time to think or to sing
songs I was trying to learn.
We live where dishes are best left to dry themselves, so I rarely dried and
put them away. Putting them away when they were dry was another set of games
and contests with myself. Sorting silverware in my hand, twirling them into
the right order without putting them down or changing hands. Stuff like that.
Yesterday I got new "silverware" (stainless), service for 12. VERY very
cool, and that's making doing dishes fun again. I washed them all by hand and
admired them all. I totally rearranged the drawer and sorted what to give away
and what to keep. It was FUN.
<< Or
can't it be OK for me to be less-than-joyful about some things with the full
knowledge that I chose to, for instance, eat, and will probably be a little
happier with a cleaner sink? >>
They're all choices whether you're joyful about them or not. They're not
have-tos. You know where the door is. You could throw the dishes out the window
and walk out the door, but you have chosen to hang out and re-use those
dishes.
<<But it's not
going to make me joyful in the short-term while I'm doing the darn things. >>
What could make you more joyful? Are they "the darn things"? Why?
I like my dishes. Even the Rubbermaid plastic plates I collect from
thriftstores because they stack so nicely and they're easy to use and wash. Sometimes
we use "the real plates," but they're heavy and dangerous. I was in an
emergency room with a friend who had been mugged once. A woman was in next to us
who dropped a dinner plate on her foot and it had broken and cut her badly. So
95 cent used plastic it is. A choice based on factors and so on.
-=-Maybe dishes make other people joyful. Maybe that's why they think I shou
ld
be joyful while doing dishes. -=-
The other way around. They remember what it was like not to be joyful, and
they're willing to tell you how they slightly tweaked their thinking to keep
the same old dishes from being those darned things.
-=-OK then -- maybe some people need help in being more joyful and some of us
don't and are happy finding joy where we do but not every second of the day
and
this advice is for others on the list and doesn't apply to me.-=-
Ideas being hung out for the taking are just for whoever wants to take them
and try them on.
Some people are happy being unhappy. Some people foster their unhappiness.
Some people cut their arms with razor blades at school and dye their hair
black and paint their nails black and stew in the suckitude of the world. I've
never known any unschoolers to do that.
Some people are happy almost all the time. I think it's worth looking at.
Some might choose to be halfway happy, but why? Attachment to martyrdom?
"Acceptance" that the world's not all that cool?
My world's pretty cool. It has become gradually cooler since I had kids and
have tried to figure out how to make THEIR worlds cooler. Mine got the side
benefit of what I learned about how to help keep them happy.
Sandra
<< What if I just don't feel all joyful about doing the dishes? It's just not
in
my character to whistle while I wash. Wouldn't it be dishonest of me to
pretend? >>
It's not about honesty. We're not there to see you or to hear you grumbling
instead of washing.
I learned all this chore-choice thing from people at www.unschooling.com and
some of them explained it better. But knowing you could choose not to do
dishes does make it a choice. You could use paper plates. You could try to make
one of the kids do it (and that will involve negative side issues you might
want to choose to avoid).
You could buy new dishes at a garage sale and throw your old ones away if
you're just tired of looking at them. That might make doing dishes more fun.
I never had a dishwasher in my whole life until I was pregnant with Marty.
For my birthday I got a birthday card from my husband that said I could have
the major appliance of my choice. I didn't have a microwave either. I chose a
dishwasher. Knowing I had considered a microwave, Keith's parents gave us one
for Christmas, and then Marty was born January 14.
So until 15 years ago, I had washed dishes by hand my whole life.
I made games with them, and patterns, and used the time to think or to sing
songs I was trying to learn.
We live where dishes are best left to dry themselves, so I rarely dried and
put them away. Putting them away when they were dry was another set of games
and contests with myself. Sorting silverware in my hand, twirling them into
the right order without putting them down or changing hands. Stuff like that.
Yesterday I got new "silverware" (stainless), service for 12. VERY very
cool, and that's making doing dishes fun again. I washed them all by hand and
admired them all. I totally rearranged the drawer and sorted what to give away
and what to keep. It was FUN.
<< Or
can't it be OK for me to be less-than-joyful about some things with the full
knowledge that I chose to, for instance, eat, and will probably be a little
happier with a cleaner sink? >>
They're all choices whether you're joyful about them or not. They're not
have-tos. You know where the door is. You could throw the dishes out the window
and walk out the door, but you have chosen to hang out and re-use those
dishes.
<<But it's not
going to make me joyful in the short-term while I'm doing the darn things. >>
What could make you more joyful? Are they "the darn things"? Why?
I like my dishes. Even the Rubbermaid plastic plates I collect from
thriftstores because they stack so nicely and they're easy to use and wash. Sometimes
we use "the real plates," but they're heavy and dangerous. I was in an
emergency room with a friend who had been mugged once. A woman was in next to us
who dropped a dinner plate on her foot and it had broken and cut her badly. So
95 cent used plastic it is. A choice based on factors and so on.
-=-Maybe dishes make other people joyful. Maybe that's why they think I shou
ld
be joyful while doing dishes. -=-
The other way around. They remember what it was like not to be joyful, and
they're willing to tell you how they slightly tweaked their thinking to keep
the same old dishes from being those darned things.
-=-OK then -- maybe some people need help in being more joyful and some of us
don't and are happy finding joy where we do but not every second of the day
and
this advice is for others on the list and doesn't apply to me.-=-
Ideas being hung out for the taking are just for whoever wants to take them
and try them on.
Some people are happy being unhappy. Some people foster their unhappiness.
Some people cut their arms with razor blades at school and dye their hair
black and paint their nails black and stew in the suckitude of the world. I've
never known any unschoolers to do that.
Some people are happy almost all the time. I think it's worth looking at.
Some might choose to be halfway happy, but why? Attachment to martyrdom?
"Acceptance" that the world's not all that cool?
My world's pretty cool. It has become gradually cooler since I had kids and
have tried to figure out how to make THEIR worlds cooler. Mine got the side
benefit of what I learned about how to help keep them happy.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Dec 26, 2003, at 8:26 AM, marbleface@... wrote:
You and me, Nance, are probably down there having to work at being one
step away from the resentful edge.
When I talk to math anxious parents I try to get them to at LEAST adopt
a "do no harm" attitude, which means they do have to keep their own
anxieties in check enough to think clearly about what they want to pass
on to their kids. What I wish for them is joy, though.
I'm thinking that for a lot of parents that asking them to be "joyful"
about math is asking them to take too big a first step JUST like asking
me to be actually outright joyful about doing dishes is just
inconceivable to me.
So - I'm working on simply doing it. Going through the motions. Faking
the attitude that I really "don't mind" doing the housework. I'm also
doing things to make it have at least some value beyond just the
cleaner house (which is nice - but has never been a big enough payoff
for me, in the past). I started listening to audible books while doing
housework and that has made it much less onerous and easier for me to
take one little tiny step out of the "I HATE this" resentment corner
where I had been hanging out for years <G>.
connection between what I'm promoting all the time to math-hating
parents (joyful math) and this idea of doing housework joyfully and
suddenly it hit me that the advice WAS for me.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Maybe dishes make other people joyful. Maybe that's why they think IThere is a big wide area between "not resentful" and "outright joyful."
> should
> be joyful while doing dishes. Hmmm . . . maybe I am OK not being
> joyful every
> minute. Maybe this isn't a problem for me. Maybe I don't need someone
> to tell
> me it's OK not to be ceaselessly joyful.
You and me, Nance, are probably down there having to work at being one
step away from the resentful edge.
When I talk to math anxious parents I try to get them to at LEAST adopt
a "do no harm" attitude, which means they do have to keep their own
anxieties in check enough to think clearly about what they want to pass
on to their kids. What I wish for them is joy, though.
I'm thinking that for a lot of parents that asking them to be "joyful"
about math is asking them to take too big a first step JUST like asking
me to be actually outright joyful about doing dishes is just
inconceivable to me.
So - I'm working on simply doing it. Going through the motions. Faking
the attitude that I really "don't mind" doing the housework. I'm also
doing things to make it have at least some value beyond just the
cleaner house (which is nice - but has never been a big enough payoff
for me, in the past). I started listening to audible books while doing
housework and that has made it much less onerous and easier for me to
take one little tiny step out of the "I HATE this" resentment corner
where I had been hanging out for years <G>.
>Maybe. I didn't pay attention to it for years. But I recently made this
> OK then -- maybe some people need help in being more joyful and some
> of us
> don't and are happy finding joy where we do but not every second of
> the day and
> this advice is for others on the list and doesn't apply to me.
connection between what I'm promoting all the time to math-hating
parents (joyful math) and this idea of doing housework joyfully and
suddenly it hit me that the advice WAS for me.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Deborah Lewis
***What if I just don't feel all joyful about doing the dishes? ***
Ah, dishes.
I lived in a little cabin in Alaska that had no plumbing. I didn't have
a well either so our water came from a community well a few miles away.
Dishes involved heating water on the wood stove for washing and rinsing.
Since then, when I turn on a water faucet it seems like magic the hot
water is right there, just like that. <g> I'm easily impressed.
I have a window above my kitchen sink where I hung the wind chime Dylan
gave me for mothers day a few years ago. I have a bird feeder on the
garden fence post I can see when I'm standing at the sink and in the
summer, my little herb garden grows and blooms there. I have a tall and
twirly copper sprinkler there looks like a cat jumping for a bird. I
have plants in my windowsill. Some of Dylan's rocks are there, shiny
obsidian and smoky quartz.
I turn on Asian Groove or Keb Mo' or someone and pour myself a little
wine. I light a candle. I like the way the hot water feels and I like
the way the dish soap smells. I like all the colors in the bubbles.
My dad gave me my dishes, Franciscan Ware, and I still think they're so
pretty - especially the cups and saucers. When I wash them I think about
the day my dad and I saw them at the store and how he surprised me with
them later for my birthday. Before I had those I collected mismatched
stoneware and have all kinds of assorted bowls and plates and mugs and
whatnots. When I wash my pitcher I think about when I found it at the
Renaissance fair in Anchorage twenty years ago and who I was with and
what they might be doing now. I have a few pieces of Polish pottery that
are so beautiful I don't know how I lived before I had them. <g>
I love the way glass and ceramic dries almost instantly if you've rinsed
it in really hot water.
I get all that, plus I get to do something nice and useful for my
family.<g> I put the herb garden just there on purpose, and the bird
feeder, the pretty sprinkler, the wind chimes, the kitchen plants. I buy
little candles on sale when I find the kind I like. I planned and saved
for a cd player for my kitchen . I'm not just doing dishes I'm
reflecting on the good things in my life.
When Dylan was little if he was cranky and nothing seemed to help I would
make a bath for him and he'd come out after awhile feeling happy and
warm. Dish doing is my attitude adjustment.<g>
Deb L
Ah, dishes.
I lived in a little cabin in Alaska that had no plumbing. I didn't have
a well either so our water came from a community well a few miles away.
Dishes involved heating water on the wood stove for washing and rinsing.
Since then, when I turn on a water faucet it seems like magic the hot
water is right there, just like that. <g> I'm easily impressed.
I have a window above my kitchen sink where I hung the wind chime Dylan
gave me for mothers day a few years ago. I have a bird feeder on the
garden fence post I can see when I'm standing at the sink and in the
summer, my little herb garden grows and blooms there. I have a tall and
twirly copper sprinkler there looks like a cat jumping for a bird. I
have plants in my windowsill. Some of Dylan's rocks are there, shiny
obsidian and smoky quartz.
I turn on Asian Groove or Keb Mo' or someone and pour myself a little
wine. I light a candle. I like the way the hot water feels and I like
the way the dish soap smells. I like all the colors in the bubbles.
My dad gave me my dishes, Franciscan Ware, and I still think they're so
pretty - especially the cups and saucers. When I wash them I think about
the day my dad and I saw them at the store and how he surprised me with
them later for my birthday. Before I had those I collected mismatched
stoneware and have all kinds of assorted bowls and plates and mugs and
whatnots. When I wash my pitcher I think about when I found it at the
Renaissance fair in Anchorage twenty years ago and who I was with and
what they might be doing now. I have a few pieces of Polish pottery that
are so beautiful I don't know how I lived before I had them. <g>
I love the way glass and ceramic dries almost instantly if you've rinsed
it in really hot water.
I get all that, plus I get to do something nice and useful for my
family.<g> I put the herb garden just there on purpose, and the bird
feeder, the pretty sprinkler, the wind chimes, the kitchen plants. I buy
little candles on sale when I find the kind I like. I planned and saved
for a cd player for my kitchen . I'm not just doing dishes I'm
reflecting on the good things in my life.
When Dylan was little if he was cranky and nothing seemed to help I would
make a bath for him and he'd come out after awhile feeling happy and
warm. Dish doing is my attitude adjustment.<g>
Deb L
liza sabater
On Friday, December 26, 2003, at 11:26 AM, marbleface@... wrote:
dishes as well. I HAVE TO CHOOSE TO DO IT THOUGH ... heh heh. No,
really, if you saw how small my kitchen is, you'd probably die of a
heart attack. I wash while I'm cooking away because I have very limited
counter & sink space. I do not enjoy in a whistly way like Mark. He
loves doing dishes in the morning. It's his way of waking up. It's like
a working meditation for him (I sometimes feel he should have been a
Zen Buddist monk). Am I going to bitch to him about the dishes while
I'm cooking because someone else has to clean? No. It's just not
practical. There is little space for 2 in the kitchen. I'd rather do it
while cooking. So practicality wins over whining.
Some time ago I was doing the dishes after dinner, a rarity. Mark was
not around for some reason. The pile was high, he was coming home late,
so I just dragged my feet to the sink. Then a thought crept in my mind.
How lucky I am that I have a husband and partner. That we complement
each other on our neurosae. That we have someone to rely upon. I have
so many single-mother neighbors here, with 1-2-4 kids to take care of
and full-time jobs. When we all see each other at the playground, we
all bitch about the same stuff: schedules, housework, chores. Then
reality strikes. Not doing the dishes while Mark was not around seems
just inconsequential. These women have lives much harder and
complicated than I. What they have to go through actually makes my
'choice' a privilege.
Needless to say, I am grateful to my single-mom neighbors. My whining
has diminished exponentially through the years.
l i z a, nyc
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Maybe dishes make other people joyful. Maybe that's why they think II'm a chef. I'll cook you a 12 course meal. Don't ask me to do the
> should
> be joyful while doing dishes. Hmmm . . . maybe I am OK not being
> joyful every
> minute. Maybe this isn't a problem for me. Maybe I don't need someone
> to tell
> me it's OK not to be ceaselessly joyful.
>
dishes as well. I HAVE TO CHOOSE TO DO IT THOUGH ... heh heh. No,
really, if you saw how small my kitchen is, you'd probably die of a
heart attack. I wash while I'm cooking away because I have very limited
counter & sink space. I do not enjoy in a whistly way like Mark. He
loves doing dishes in the morning. It's his way of waking up. It's like
a working meditation for him (I sometimes feel he should have been a
Zen Buddist monk). Am I going to bitch to him about the dishes while
I'm cooking because someone else has to clean? No. It's just not
practical. There is little space for 2 in the kitchen. I'd rather do it
while cooking. So practicality wins over whining.
Some time ago I was doing the dishes after dinner, a rarity. Mark was
not around for some reason. The pile was high, he was coming home late,
so I just dragged my feet to the sink. Then a thought crept in my mind.
How lucky I am that I have a husband and partner. That we complement
each other on our neurosae. That we have someone to rely upon. I have
so many single-mother neighbors here, with 1-2-4 kids to take care of
and full-time jobs. When we all see each other at the playground, we
all bitch about the same stuff: schedules, housework, chores. Then
reality strikes. Not doing the dishes while Mark was not around seems
just inconsequential. These women have lives much harder and
complicated than I. What they have to go through actually makes my
'choice' a privilege.
Needless to say, I am grateful to my single-mom neighbors. My whining
has diminished exponentially through the years.
l i z a, nyc
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<< Dish doing is my attitude adjustment.<g>>>>>
*****************************************
LOL. I feel this way about washing the floor. I love the feel of the warm
water on my hands and seeing the shiny floor. I put essential oils in the
water and love the way it smells.
My friends think I'm a fairly pathetic case <grin>
Julie S.
*****************************************
LOL. I feel this way about washing the floor. I love the feel of the warm
water on my hands and seeing the shiny floor. I put essential oils in the
water and love the way it smells.
My friends think I'm a fairly pathetic case <grin>
Julie S.
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deborah Lewis" <ddzimlew@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Radical v regular
> ***What if I just don't feel all joyful about doing the dishes? ***
>
> Ah, dishes.
>
> I lived in a little cabin in Alaska that had no plumbing. I didn't have
> a well either so our water came from a community well a few miles away.
> Dishes involved heating water on the wood stove for washing and rinsing.
>
> Since then, when I turn on a water faucet it seems like magic the hot
> water is right there, just like that. <g> I'm easily impressed.
>
> I have a window above my kitchen sink where I hung the wind chime Dylan
> gave me for mothers day a few years ago. I have a bird feeder on the
> garden fence post I can see when I'm standing at the sink and in the
> summer, my little herb garden grows and blooms there. I have a tall and
> twirly copper sprinkler there looks like a cat jumping for a bird. I
> have plants in my windowsill. Some of Dylan's rocks are there, shiny
> obsidian and smoky quartz.
>
> I turn on Asian Groove or Keb Mo' or someone and pour myself a little
> wine. I light a candle. I like the way the hot water feels and I like
> the way the dish soap smells. I like all the colors in the bubbles.
>
> My dad gave me my dishes, Franciscan Ware, and I still think they're so
> pretty - especially the cups and saucers. When I wash them I think about
> the day my dad and I saw them at the store and how he surprised me with
> them later for my birthday. Before I had those I collected mismatched
> stoneware and have all kinds of assorted bowls and plates and mugs and
> whatnots. When I wash my pitcher I think about when I found it at the
> Renaissance fair in Anchorage twenty years ago and who I was with and
> what they might be doing now. I have a few pieces of Polish pottery that
> are so beautiful I don't know how I lived before I had them. <g>
>
> I love the way glass and ceramic dries almost instantly if you've rinsed
> it in really hot water.
>
> I get all that, plus I get to do something nice and useful for my
> family.<g> I put the herb garden just there on purpose, and the bird
> feeder, the pretty sprinkler, the wind chimes, the kitchen plants. I buy
> little candles on sale when I find the kind I like. I planned and saved
> for a cd player for my kitchen . I'm not just doing dishes I'm
> reflecting on the good things in my life.
>
> When Dylan was little if he was cranky and nothing seemed to help I would
> make a bath for him and he'd come out after awhile feeling happy and
> warm. > Deb L
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Mary
From: "Deborah Lewis" <ddzimlew@...>
snipped << I put the herb garden just there on purpose, and the bird
feeder, the pretty sprinkler, the wind chimes, the kitchen plants. I buy
little candles on sale when I find the kind I like. I planned and saved
for a cd player for my kitchen . I'm not just doing dishes I'm
reflecting on the good things in my life. >>
I never really thought about why doing dishes doesn't bother me much. Just
thought I had a thing for housework. I really enjoy keeping a neat clean
house and aside from changing sheets, never grumble about any of it. So I
thought the dish thing was the same. I never had a dish washer in my life up
until 3 years ago. If I use it 6 times in a year, that's a lot. But with
reading your post, I realized what keeps me joyful doing the dishes and when
it does start to get to me a bit. I find late night washing irritates me
when something dirty is still in the sink. It's because the kids aren't up
or out and about. When I'm standing at my sink, I have a large open window
into the playroom. That's where all the games and most of the toys are as
well as the tv and playstation. During the day, at least one body is usually
in there. What better way for me to enjoy dishwashing then to see my
beautiful offspring enjoying life. Or to see my husband taking out his
frustrations on playstation. And in the daylight, I open the blinds and have
a wonderful view of the pool. Cats sitting on the ledge watching lizards and
birds fly about. Sometimes sitting on the counter watching me and the water
and sponge move all about. So it's only late at night, when kids are
sleeping or playing in their rooms and cats have no lizards to watch and the
pool is too dark to see that I think crap!!!! dishes again?
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
snipped << I put the herb garden just there on purpose, and the bird
feeder, the pretty sprinkler, the wind chimes, the kitchen plants. I buy
little candles on sale when I find the kind I like. I planned and saved
for a cd player for my kitchen . I'm not just doing dishes I'm
reflecting on the good things in my life. >>
I never really thought about why doing dishes doesn't bother me much. Just
thought I had a thing for housework. I really enjoy keeping a neat clean
house and aside from changing sheets, never grumble about any of it. So I
thought the dish thing was the same. I never had a dish washer in my life up
until 3 years ago. If I use it 6 times in a year, that's a lot. But with
reading your post, I realized what keeps me joyful doing the dishes and when
it does start to get to me a bit. I find late night washing irritates me
when something dirty is still in the sink. It's because the kids aren't up
or out and about. When I'm standing at my sink, I have a large open window
into the playroom. That's where all the games and most of the toys are as
well as the tv and playstation. During the day, at least one body is usually
in there. What better way for me to enjoy dishwashing then to see my
beautiful offspring enjoying life. Or to see my husband taking out his
frustrations on playstation. And in the daylight, I open the blinds and have
a wonderful view of the pool. Cats sitting on the ledge watching lizards and
birds fly about. Sometimes sitting on the counter watching me and the water
and sponge move all about. So it's only late at night, when kids are
sleeping or playing in their rooms and cats have no lizards to watch and the
pool is too dark to see that I think crap!!!! dishes again?
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
Dawn Adams
Nance writes:
Maybe dishes make other people joyful. Maybe that's why they think I should
be joyful while doing dishes. Hmmm . . . maybe I am OK not being joyful every
minute. Maybe this isn't a problem for me. Maybe I don't need someone to tell
me it's OK not to be ceaselessly joyful.
I found apple scented dish detergent, CBC radio and the kids being exiled to the living room make dish washing very joy filled. :)
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe dishes make other people joyful. Maybe that's why they think I should
be joyful while doing dishes. Hmmm . . . maybe I am OK not being joyful every
minute. Maybe this isn't a problem for me. Maybe I don't need someone to tell
me it's OK not to be ceaselessly joyful.
I found apple scented dish detergent, CBC radio and the kids being exiled to the living room make dish washing very joy filled. :)
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
Julie writes;
LOL. I feel this way about washing the floor. I love the feel of the warm
water on my hands and seeing the shiny floor. I put essential oils in the
water and love the way it smells.
Me too! Not the oils, but washing the floor. I astually throw out my mop because I prefer to scrub on my hands and knees. It's hard work and done less then it should be but I do enjoy the work and the way it frees up my mind while I'm doing it.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
LOL. I feel this way about washing the floor. I love the feel of the warm
water on my hands and seeing the shiny floor. I put essential oils in the
water and love the way it smells.
Me too! Not the oils, but washing the floor. I astually throw out my mop because I prefer to scrub on my hands and knees. It's hard work and done less then it should be but I do enjoy the work and the way it frees up my mind while I'm doing it.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
I just discovered how nice it is to wash floors with essential oils
in the water last week! I was having company and I smelled something
funny in the diningroom and couldn't figure out what it was, so I put
some cinnamon essential oils in my water and thought maybe I could
mask the smell. I got all excited when I started cleaning--I
couldn't believe how great it smelled! I got all excited and called
my daughter into the room to smell my rag. She liked it too. :) You
can smell the scent for hours after you clean.
I figured out what the smell was. The boys caught a frog in the yard
over the summer and put him in a bucket. We feed him every day and
he's still living but we don't change his water very often. I
finally realized that when I changed the water the bad smell went
away. ;)
Sheila
in the water last week! I was having company and I smelled something
funny in the diningroom and couldn't figure out what it was, so I put
some cinnamon essential oils in my water and thought maybe I could
mask the smell. I got all excited when I started cleaning--I
couldn't believe how great it smelled! I got all excited and called
my daughter into the room to smell my rag. She liked it too. :) You
can smell the scent for hours after you clean.
I figured out what the smell was. The boys caught a frog in the yard
over the summer and put him in a bucket. We feed him every day and
he's still living but we don't change his water very often. I
finally realized that when I changed the water the bad smell went
away. ;)
Sheila
> LOL. I feel this way about washing the floor. I love the feel ofthe warm
> water on my hands and seeing the shiny floor. I put essential oilsin the
> water and love the way it smells.
>
> My friends think I'm a fairly pathetic case <grin>
>
> Julie S.
kayb85
Reading all this talk about enjoying dishes and housework is good for
my soul. :) I've never been around anyone who actually talked about
it as though it were something joyful. I'm used to people talking
about housework as a dreaded chore. I've always struggled with
cleaning and housework because I've always tried to figure out ways
to discipline myself and make myself do it. My goal was always to
get it out of the way and to have the unpleasant task done so I
didn't have to feel guilty about not having it done. It wasn't a
goal that I wanted to have, because I didn't CARE whether there was a
mess or not, but I thought I should feel guilty if the house wasn't
neat and clean.
But if I can look at it as something fun and enjoyable, then that
helps.
Sheila
my soul. :) I've never been around anyone who actually talked about
it as though it were something joyful. I'm used to people talking
about housework as a dreaded chore. I've always struggled with
cleaning and housework because I've always tried to figure out ways
to discipline myself and make myself do it. My goal was always to
get it out of the way and to have the unpleasant task done so I
didn't have to feel guilty about not having it done. It wasn't a
goal that I wanted to have, because I didn't CARE whether there was a
mess or not, but I thought I should feel guilty if the house wasn't
neat and clean.
But if I can look at it as something fun and enjoyable, then that
helps.
Sheila
> Yesterday I got new "silverware" (stainless), service for 12. VERYvery
> cool, and that's making doing dishes fun again. I washed them allby hand and
> admired them all. I totally rearranged the drawer and sorted whatto give away
> and what to keep. It was FUN.
Lyle W.
Do something you enjoy doing WHILE you're cleaning. If you're a music lover, put on a CD and sing along. If you like movies, let it play while you clean around it. If you love talking to your kids, talk to them while you clean. Whatever it is, figure out a way to incorporate it into the cleaning. I know it sounds a little...crazy, but it really can help take the 'chore' out of cleaning.
I DO enjoy cleaning (not as much as I used to, but that's a whole 'nuther story) so I clean as I'm doing other things all the time. A lot of times there is no conscious thought behind it. It's almost like a relfex for me, lol.
Another thing on cleaning...try not to compare your house with other people's clean houses, or especially not to the houses you see on TV commercials. There's a good chance the other people's houses and the one's on TV are not unschooler's, and like most everything else, not many things in the 'normal' world compare to an unschooling lifestyle. Maybe the people with the immaculate houses don't spend much time with their kids. There may be some that barely know their kids at all. Some people have all day to clean while their kids are in school. Some people have cleaning services that do it for them. The point is, don't compare your house to one that exists in another dimension.
A clean house is nice, but it doesn't need to be at the top of the list of priorities. We unschoolers get a lot of other 'perks' from our lifestyle that most people will never experience.
:)
Lyle
I DO enjoy cleaning (not as much as I used to, but that's a whole 'nuther story) so I clean as I'm doing other things all the time. A lot of times there is no conscious thought behind it. It's almost like a relfex for me, lol.
Another thing on cleaning...try not to compare your house with other people's clean houses, or especially not to the houses you see on TV commercials. There's a good chance the other people's houses and the one's on TV are not unschooler's, and like most everything else, not many things in the 'normal' world compare to an unschooling lifestyle. Maybe the people with the immaculate houses don't spend much time with their kids. There may be some that barely know their kids at all. Some people have all day to clean while their kids are in school. Some people have cleaning services that do it for them. The point is, don't compare your house to one that exists in another dimension.
A clean house is nice, but it doesn't need to be at the top of the list of priorities. We unschoolers get a lot of other 'perks' from our lifestyle that most people will never experience.
:)
Lyle
----- Original Message -----
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:53:45 -0000
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Radical v regular
> Reading all this talk about enjoying dishes and housework is good for
> my soul. :) I've never been around anyone who actually talked about
> it as though it were something joyful. I'm used to people talking
> about housework as a dreaded chore. I've always struggled with
> cleaning and housework because I've always tried to figure out ways
> to discipline myself and make myself do it. My goal was always to
> get it out of the way and to have the unpleasant task done so I
> didn't have to feel guilty about not having it done. It wasn't a
> goal that I wanted to have, because I didn't CARE whether there was a
> mess or not, but I thought I should feel guilty if the house wasn't
> neat and clean.
>
> But if I can look at it as something fun and enjoyable, then that
> helps.
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
>
> > Yesterday I got new "silverware" (stainless), service for 12. VERY
> very
> > cool, and that's making doing dishes fun again. I washed them all
> by hand and
> > admired them all. I totally rearranged the drawer and sorted what
> to give away
> > and what to keep. It was FUN.
>
>
***Always remember, Lead By Example***
--
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
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Dawn Adams
Lyle Writes:
----- Another thing on cleaning...try not to compare your house with other people's clean >houses, or especially not to the houses you see on TV commercials. There's a good chance >the other people's houses and the one's on TV are not unschooler's, and like most >everything else, not many things in the 'normal' world compare to an unschooling >lifestyle. Maybe the people with the immaculate houses don't spend much time with their >kids. There may be some that barely know their kids at all. Some people have all day >to .clean while their kids are in school. Some people have cleaning services that do it >for them. The point is, don't compare your house to one that exists in another >dimension.
I finally clued into that this fall. I couldn't figure out why my house looked so good last fall but was no longer manageable for more than a few hours this fall. Then it clicked. My son is a rampaging two year old and unschooling has meant a huge shift in my attidtude to toys. For example, the livingroom was my room last year and any toys were out of site. This year, with so many toys and books and ME excitedly adding to the cache any chance I get (has anyone else noticed this shift of thinking? Toys are no longer clutter but exciting fun) I've had to spread toys, crafts, blocks, whatever around the whole house.
If it's a mess, oh well. I know it will get cleaned sooner or later.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Another thing on cleaning...try not to compare your house with other people's clean >houses, or especially not to the houses you see on TV commercials. There's a good chance >the other people's houses and the one's on TV are not unschooler's, and like most >everything else, not many things in the 'normal' world compare to an unschooling >lifestyle. Maybe the people with the immaculate houses don't spend much time with their >kids. There may be some that barely know their kids at all. Some people have all day >to .clean while their kids are in school. Some people have cleaning services that do it >for them. The point is, don't compare your house to one that exists in another >dimension.
I finally clued into that this fall. I couldn't figure out why my house looked so good last fall but was no longer manageable for more than a few hours this fall. Then it clicked. My son is a rampaging two year old and unschooling has meant a huge shift in my attidtude to toys. For example, the livingroom was my room last year and any toys were out of site. This year, with so many toys and books and ME excitedly adding to the cache any chance I get (has anyone else noticed this shift of thinking? Toys are no longer clutter but exciting fun) I've had to spread toys, crafts, blocks, whatever around the whole house.
If it's a mess, oh well. I know it will get cleaned sooner or later.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
,<<<I prefer to scrub on my hands and knees. It's hard work and done less
then it should be but I do enjoy the work and the way it frees up my mind
while I'm doing it.>>>********************************
Me too!! .....great minds and all that <grin>
Julie S.
then it should be but I do enjoy the work and the way it frees up my mind
while I'm doing it.>>>********************************
Me too!! .....great minds and all that <grin>
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dawn Adams" <Wishbone@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Radical v regular
>
> Julie writes;
> LOL. I feel this way about washing the floor. I love the feel of the
warm
> water on my hands and seeing the shiny floor. I put essential oils in
the
> water and love the way it smells.
>
> Me too! Not the oils, but washing the floor. I astually throw out my mop
because>
> Dawn (in NS)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<But if I can look at it as something fun and enjoyable, then that
cleaning needs. We have lemon and grapefruit scented toilets, pine scented
floors, and sage scented cabinets.
Housework used to be a problem around here until very recently when I took
the advice of some of the wise women on this list. With 5 kids and lots of
activities and running around, the house was NEVER clean, barely liveable.
I always felt like I was cleaning as fast as I could just to keep our heads
above the clutter. We happen to live in a large, ramshackle house so no one
walks to put anything away. They just set it on the nearest flat surface. I
could never get the clutter put away so I could really clean.
I started doing just one room per day. The first time I went through each
room, it took the entire day per room. But since then, I can clean the room
in about 15 minutes and feel that I have truly accomplished something. Then
I don't feel like I'm drowning and "go banshee" on the kids and dh (thanks
for the description Sandra.)
Julie S.
> helps.>>>I agree. I use essential oils, water, vinegar and baking soda for all our
cleaning needs. We have lemon and grapefruit scented toilets, pine scented
floors, and sage scented cabinets.
Housework used to be a problem around here until very recently when I took
the advice of some of the wise women on this list. With 5 kids and lots of
activities and running around, the house was NEVER clean, barely liveable.
I always felt like I was cleaning as fast as I could just to keep our heads
above the clutter. We happen to live in a large, ramshackle house so no one
walks to put anything away. They just set it on the nearest flat surface. I
could never get the clutter put away so I could really clean.
I started doing just one room per day. The first time I went through each
room, it took the entire day per room. But since then, I can clean the room
in about 15 minutes and feel that I have truly accomplished something. Then
I don't feel like I'm drowning and "go banshee" on the kids and dh (thanks
for the description Sandra.)
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 6:53 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Radical v regular
> Reading all this talk about enjoying dishes and housework is good for
> my soul. :) I've never been around anyone who actually talked about
> it as though it were something joyful. I'm used to people talking
> about housework as a dreaded chore. I've always struggled with
> cleaning and housework because I've always tried to figure out ways
> to discipline myself and make myself do it. My goal was always to
> get it out of the way and to have the unpleasant task done so I
> didn't have to feel guilty about not having it done. It wasn't a
> goal that I wanted to have, because I didn't CARE whether there was a
> mess or not, but I thought I should feel guilty if the house wasn't
> neat and clean.
>
> >
> Sheila
>
>
>
>
> > Yesterday I got new "silverware" (stainless), service for 12. VERY
> very
> > cool, and that's making doing dishes fun again. I washed them all
> by hand and
> > admired them all. I totally rearranged the drawer and sorted what
> to give away
> > and what to keep. It was FUN.
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<...try not to compare your house with other people's clean houses,>>>
******************************************
I try to support my friends by being the person with the messy house so they
don't feel a need to compete with me.....at least that's what I'm telling
myself this week.
Julie S.
******************************************
I try to support my friends by being the person with the messy house so they
don't feel a need to compete with me.....at least that's what I'm telling
myself this week.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyle W." <unschoolingdad@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Radical v regular
> Do something you enjoy doing WHILE you're cleaning. If you're a music
lover, put on a CD and sing along. If you like movies, let it play while
you clean around it. If you love talking to your kids, talk to them while
you clean. Whatever it is, figure out a way to incorporate it into the
cleaning. I know it sounds a little...crazy, but it really can help take
the 'chore' out of cleaning.
>
> I DO enjoy cleaning (not as much as I used to, but that's a whole 'nuther
story) so I clean as I'm doing other things all the time. A lot of times
there is no conscious thought behind it. It's almost like a relfex for me,
lol.
>
> Another thing on cleaning or especially not to the houses you see on TV
commercials. There's a good chance the other people's houses and the one's
on TV are not unschooler's, and like most everything else, not many things
in the 'normal' world compare to an unschooling lifestyle. Maybe the people
with the immaculate houses don't spend much time with their kids. There may
be some that barely know their kids at all. Some people have all day to
clean while their kids are in school. Some people have cleaning services
that do it for them. The point is, don't compare your house to one that
exists in another dimension.
>
> A clean house is nice, but it doesn't need to be at the top of the list of
priorities. We unschoolers get a lot of other 'perks' from our lifestyle
that most people will never experience.
>
> :)
>
> Lyle
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:53:45 -0000
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Radical v regular
>
> > Reading all this talk about enjoying dishes and housework is good for
> > my soul. :) I've never been around anyone who actually talked about
> > it as though it were something joyful. I'm used to people talking
> > about housework as a dreaded chore. I've always struggled with
> > cleaning and housework because I've always tried to figure out ways
> > to discipline myself and make myself do it. My goal was always to
> > get it out of the way and to have the unpleasant task done so I
> > didn't have to feel guilty about not having it done. It wasn't a
> > goal that I wanted to have, because I didn't CARE whether there was a
> > mess or not, but I thought I should feel guilty if the house wasn't
> > neat and clean.
> >
> > But if I can look at it as something fun and enjoyable, then that
> > helps.
> >
> > Sheila
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Yesterday I got new "silverware" (stainless), service for 12. VERY
> > very
> > > cool, and that's making doing dishes fun again. I washed them all
> > by hand and
> > > admired them all. I totally rearranged the drawer and sorted what
> > to give away
> > > and what to keep. It was FUN.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ***Always remember, Lead By Example***
>
> --
> ___________________________________________________________
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
Wife2Vegman
Ok, I typed this all up, tried to send and the
computer froze up...I don't know if it ever was sent,
so I will try again...with a shortened version of what
I originally typed.
I dropped assigned chores about three months ago, but
no one seems to be pitching in to help around here,
and will even just leave messes for others to clean.
I am ending up doing all of the cleaning.
How do we make this transition work?
One child was overheard by another mom on the phone to
say to a friend, "oops, I spilled my smoothie all over
the counter. Oh well, someone else will clean it up".
Now, if asked, they will do things, begrudgingly,
because it has always been expected. And even though
they have the option now of saying "no" when asked,
they usually don't because it was drilled into them as
small children that "no" was not an acceptable choice.
Unfortunately, it will probably take years for them to
recover from THAT. So I am careful not to ask too
often, nor when they are obviously involved in things.
The 5yo has no such hang ups, and has no problem
saying, "NO!" <bg>, and exercises that right
consistently and continuously. He will, on occasion,
help me do fun things like bathe the puppies, or wash
the car, or bake cookies (but not wash the pan
afterwards).
DH doesn't have faith that this unchoring will work,
even though I tell him that a lot of families on this
list don't have assigned chores. So I try to have
things done before he gets home in the evenings, and
anticipate what he will get his pants in a bunch about
and have that done so he won't start ordering the kids
to do things.
Have I just not given this enough time? Are they
still dechoring?
Any suggestions would be great! I am enjoying
incorporating the unschooling philosophy into all the
different areas of our family life now.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
computer froze up...I don't know if it ever was sent,
so I will try again...with a shortened version of what
I originally typed.
I dropped assigned chores about three months ago, but
no one seems to be pitching in to help around here,
and will even just leave messes for others to clean.
I am ending up doing all of the cleaning.
How do we make this transition work?
One child was overheard by another mom on the phone to
say to a friend, "oops, I spilled my smoothie all over
the counter. Oh well, someone else will clean it up".
Now, if asked, they will do things, begrudgingly,
because it has always been expected. And even though
they have the option now of saying "no" when asked,
they usually don't because it was drilled into them as
small children that "no" was not an acceptable choice.
Unfortunately, it will probably take years for them to
recover from THAT. So I am careful not to ask too
often, nor when they are obviously involved in things.
The 5yo has no such hang ups, and has no problem
saying, "NO!" <bg>, and exercises that right
consistently and continuously. He will, on occasion,
help me do fun things like bathe the puppies, or wash
the car, or bake cookies (but not wash the pan
afterwards).
DH doesn't have faith that this unchoring will work,
even though I tell him that a lot of families on this
list don't have assigned chores. So I try to have
things done before he gets home in the evenings, and
anticipate what he will get his pants in a bunch about
and have that done so he won't start ordering the kids
to do things.
Have I just not given this enough time? Are they
still dechoring?
Any suggestions would be great! I am enjoying
incorporating the unschooling philosophy into all the
different areas of our family life now.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
Mary
Since we never really had assigned chores, I'm not sure if there is a period
of dechoring!!! Funny word. But I do know that even now, we still have
periods where certain people seem to be doing more than others. But for us,
that works out well and evens itself all out. Maybe as the kids get older,
it will even out more too. The youngest are 8, 7 and 3. There were also
times where it seemed like no one but my husband and I were concerned with
how the house looked. We just went about cleaning as we always did.
Sometimes when something got really bad for me, I would just talk to the
kids about how it was important for me to have something look a certain way.
I would explain it so they could understand like if something of their's
wasn't the way they always like it to be. They got it and now they really
understand how taking care of something they see as no big deal will make
mommy really happy. But they aren't mind readers and don't actually *see*
what I do. Talking about specifics helps as opposed to "the playroom is a
mess and I can't stand it anymore and need it cleaned up." Saying " I would
really like the floor to be picked up so I can walk without stepping on
anything and breaking it would be nice." So I would compromise by just
having the floor neat and all the stuff on the table or counters or on
shelves and the kids wouldn't feel so put out by cleaning up everything. And
as I say it, I start picking stuff up too. I have always had 1 or 2 kids
pitch in. I learn to not put my anality (is that a word?) on to my kids.
They just don't see and feel the same about neatness like I do. That's fine
and just as I give for their way, they give to mine. It will take awhile and
I feel like it's very important to not grumble while the wait is on.
Grumbling will just make them see it's awful work they won't even want to do
anyway.
Start small with things that are really important to all and go from there.
It will get better!
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
of dechoring!!! Funny word. But I do know that even now, we still have
periods where certain people seem to be doing more than others. But for us,
that works out well and evens itself all out. Maybe as the kids get older,
it will even out more too. The youngest are 8, 7 and 3. There were also
times where it seemed like no one but my husband and I were concerned with
how the house looked. We just went about cleaning as we always did.
Sometimes when something got really bad for me, I would just talk to the
kids about how it was important for me to have something look a certain way.
I would explain it so they could understand like if something of their's
wasn't the way they always like it to be. They got it and now they really
understand how taking care of something they see as no big deal will make
mommy really happy. But they aren't mind readers and don't actually *see*
what I do. Talking about specifics helps as opposed to "the playroom is a
mess and I can't stand it anymore and need it cleaned up." Saying " I would
really like the floor to be picked up so I can walk without stepping on
anything and breaking it would be nice." So I would compromise by just
having the floor neat and all the stuff on the table or counters or on
shelves and the kids wouldn't feel so put out by cleaning up everything. And
as I say it, I start picking stuff up too. I have always had 1 or 2 kids
pitch in. I learn to not put my anality (is that a word?) on to my kids.
They just don't see and feel the same about neatness like I do. That's fine
and just as I give for their way, they give to mine. It will take awhile and
I feel like it's very important to not grumble while the wait is on.
Grumbling will just make them see it's awful work they won't even want to do
anyway.
Start small with things that are really important to all and go from there.
It will get better!
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
J. Stauffer
<< How do we make this transition work?>>
I think the transition from any controlled environment to an uncontrolled
one is hard at best....why do you think there is such a high recidivism rate
at prisons <grin>?
The kids obviously don't feel yet that you are comfortable with "no" as an
answer and are enjoying their freedom while it lasts. We have a goal at our
house that each of us lives in complete freedom as long as it doesn't cause
harm. Note this is a goal and we don't always reach it, but we do try.
So when something comes up, like people not cleaning up after themselves, we
sit down and talk about it. Not in a "You little snot, I can't believe you
expect me to clean up after you." But in a gentle, loving "this is how I
feel when I see messes left around" kind of thing. We talk about how our
actions have consequences, not only for ourselves but for others and the
world.
I think gentle reminders are likely to simply be a part of mothering. Let's
face it. The kids are simply not as invested in picking up as you are.
They have other things on their minds.
I also try to treat our home, as "OUR home", not MY house. If I were at my
mom's and I saw a mess in the living room, I would pick it up just to help
out my mom. I try to do the same things for the kids. I help them where I
can because I love them and it models helpful behavior to them.
One thing that was absolutely NOT helpful for us during the transition was
for me to go into the living room where all the kids are doing something and
say "Would you guys go clean your rooms up? I can't even walk in there."
What was helpful was to ask a child individually, when they were between
activities (you know, that pass through the kitchen to see what everybody is
doing thing that kids do) if that individual child would help me do
something, asked in a kind, fun, gentle way. Like "Hey Zach, I was having
trouble finding a book to read to Danny in y'all's room last night. I was
gonna organize things in there so you can find them easier. Would you like
to help me?" I get the occassional "no" but most of the kids enjoy alone
time with mom and they know straightening up won't take but a minute.
An important note on this I think, is then to take what they want to do
about helping very serious. Example: If Zach wants to put his underwear on
the bookshelves rather than in a drawer, I respect that and help him do it.
Julie S.---who in real life would be thrilled if Zach showed any interest in
his underwear at all
I think the transition from any controlled environment to an uncontrolled
one is hard at best....why do you think there is such a high recidivism rate
at prisons <grin>?
The kids obviously don't feel yet that you are comfortable with "no" as an
answer and are enjoying their freedom while it lasts. We have a goal at our
house that each of us lives in complete freedom as long as it doesn't cause
harm. Note this is a goal and we don't always reach it, but we do try.
So when something comes up, like people not cleaning up after themselves, we
sit down and talk about it. Not in a "You little snot, I can't believe you
expect me to clean up after you." But in a gentle, loving "this is how I
feel when I see messes left around" kind of thing. We talk about how our
actions have consequences, not only for ourselves but for others and the
world.
I think gentle reminders are likely to simply be a part of mothering. Let's
face it. The kids are simply not as invested in picking up as you are.
They have other things on their minds.
I also try to treat our home, as "OUR home", not MY house. If I were at my
mom's and I saw a mess in the living room, I would pick it up just to help
out my mom. I try to do the same things for the kids. I help them where I
can because I love them and it models helpful behavior to them.
One thing that was absolutely NOT helpful for us during the transition was
for me to go into the living room where all the kids are doing something and
say "Would you guys go clean your rooms up? I can't even walk in there."
What was helpful was to ask a child individually, when they were between
activities (you know, that pass through the kitchen to see what everybody is
doing thing that kids do) if that individual child would help me do
something, asked in a kind, fun, gentle way. Like "Hey Zach, I was having
trouble finding a book to read to Danny in y'all's room last night. I was
gonna organize things in there so you can find them easier. Would you like
to help me?" I get the occassional "no" but most of the kids enjoy alone
time with mom and they know straightening up won't take but a minute.
An important note on this I think, is then to take what they want to do
about helping very serious. Example: If Zach wants to put his underwear on
the bookshelves rather than in a drawer, I respect that and help him do it.
Julie S.---who in real life would be thrilled if Zach showed any interest in
his underwear at all
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wife2Vegman" <wifetovegman2002@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 11:28 AM
Subject: Cleaning (was Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Radical v regular)
>
> Ok, I typed this all up, tried to send and the
> computer froze up...I don't know if it ever was sent,
> so I will try again...with a shortened version of what
> I originally typed.
>
>
> I dropped assigned chores about three months ago, but
> no one seems to be pitching in to help around here,
> and will even just leave messes for others to clean.
> I am ending up doing all of the cleaning.
>
>>
> One child was overheard by another mom on the phone to
> say to a friend, "oops, I spilled my smoothie all over
> the counter. Oh well, someone else will clean it up".
>
> Now, if asked, they will do things, begrudgingly,
> because it has always been expected. And even though
> they have the option now of saying "no" when asked,
> they usually don't because it was drilled into them as
> small children that "no" was not an acceptable choice.
>
> Unfortunately, it will probably take years for them to
> recover from THAT. So I am careful not to ask too
> often, nor when they are obviously involved in things.
>
> The 5yo has no such hang ups, and has no problem
> saying, "NO!" <bg>, and exercises that right
> consistently and continuously. He will, on occasion,
> help me do fun things like bathe the puppies, or wash
> the car, or bake cookies (but not wash the pan
> afterwards).
>
> DH doesn't have faith that this unchoring will work,
> even though I tell him that a lot of families on this
> list don't have assigned chores. So I try to have
> things done before he gets home in the evenings, and
> anticipate what he will get his pants in a bunch about
> and have that done so he won't start ordering the kids
> to do things.
>
> Have I just not given this enough time? Are they
> still dechoring?
>
> Any suggestions would be great! I am enjoying
> incorporating the unschooling philosophy into all the
> different areas of our family life now.
>
>
>
> =====
> --Susan in VA
> WifetoVegman
>
> What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for
children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the
schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
>
> __________________________________
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>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
liza sabater
On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 11:01 AM, J. Stauffer wrote:
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I agree. I use essential oils, water, vinegar and baking soda for allYou should call this housecleaning as aromatherapy. :)
> our
> cleaning needs. We have lemon and grapefruit scented toilets, pine
> scented
> floors, and sage scented cabinets.
>
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/27/03 10:30:12 AM, wifetovegman2002@... writes:
<< How do we make this transition work? >>
Three months wasn't enough for unschooling to start working, was it? I'm
guessing there's a "deschooling" kind of time on everything like that. Three
months is only one season. And some kids will change sooner or in different
ways than others. But if you don't go that direction you can never get that
direction and you'll spend the rest of your life trying to make people do things
they don't want to do.
So if it we somehow could actually know and tell you it was going to take
five years, would you go back to the old way?
-=-One child was overheard by another mom on the phone to
say to a friend, "oops, I spilled my smoothie all over
the counter. Oh well, someone else will clean it up".-=-
And did you have a serious talk with that child? It's one thing not to
require public chores of people (cleaning up after others, doing their dad's
laundry for him) but quite a whole foreign different thing to give a child the
impression that she's not responsible for even her own messes.
If it were one of mine I would say that only AFTER she had cleaned other
people's messes up sweetly and quietly for a long time do they start to clean up
after her. (And I'd say that to moms too. Some moms have done little to no
quiet and sweet cleaning. They've done a lot of grumbling and muttering
cleaning and then they send their family the bill in one way or another.)
<<Now, if asked, they will do things, begrudgingly,
because it has always been expected. And even though
they have the option now of saying "no" when asked,
they usually don't because it was drilled into them as
small children that "no" was not an acceptable choice.>>
Given that, three months is like an hour. Probably a happy hour.
<<DH doesn't have faith that this unchoring will work>>
Neither do you, it seems, if you're tapping your foot at three months and
saying "When is this going to work?"
But I'm guessing that somehow in some way you gave your kids a speech and
said "From now on..." and maybe something you said gave them the idea in some
carts-before-horses way that if they leave a mess for someone else to clean (even
if it's a sudden discrete mess they individually and specifically made) you
said something I would never have said.
<<Have I just not given this enough time? Are they
still dechoring?>>
I don't like the term "dechoring" or "choring" or "chore."
Are you living well together as a group? Does it involve freedom and choices
and helping and cooperation? It's not something you can do behind your
husband's back. And maybe it's not something you can do altogether all at once.
Maybe more discussions with the kids about what you would like to see happen
would help. You could say "If it seems there are other ways to go about this,
we can do other things, but because your dad doesn't believe it can work, we
need to figure out an intermediary phase (or something)."
When we've had adult housemates, we've asked them to do things. "Would you
be willing to make breakfast Saturday when we have company?" or "Could you fix
that light fixture when you get a chance?" or "Could you change the laundry
when it's done?" But I wouldn't have "given them chores" and insisted they did
it all the time. And I wouldn't have said, "You don't have to do ANYTHING
around here."
Maybe it wasn't anything you said. Maybe it's just their experimentation to
see if you've just gone crazy and will regain your sanity soon and it will all
be over. So maybe they have no faith that this will work either, and they're
enjoying what they think might just be a lull.
Sandra
<< How do we make this transition work? >>
Three months wasn't enough for unschooling to start working, was it? I'm
guessing there's a "deschooling" kind of time on everything like that. Three
months is only one season. And some kids will change sooner or in different
ways than others. But if you don't go that direction you can never get that
direction and you'll spend the rest of your life trying to make people do things
they don't want to do.
So if it we somehow could actually know and tell you it was going to take
five years, would you go back to the old way?
-=-One child was overheard by another mom on the phone to
say to a friend, "oops, I spilled my smoothie all over
the counter. Oh well, someone else will clean it up".-=-
And did you have a serious talk with that child? It's one thing not to
require public chores of people (cleaning up after others, doing their dad's
laundry for him) but quite a whole foreign different thing to give a child the
impression that she's not responsible for even her own messes.
If it were one of mine I would say that only AFTER she had cleaned other
people's messes up sweetly and quietly for a long time do they start to clean up
after her. (And I'd say that to moms too. Some moms have done little to no
quiet and sweet cleaning. They've done a lot of grumbling and muttering
cleaning and then they send their family the bill in one way or another.)
<<Now, if asked, they will do things, begrudgingly,
because it has always been expected. And even though
they have the option now of saying "no" when asked,
they usually don't because it was drilled into them as
small children that "no" was not an acceptable choice.>>
Given that, three months is like an hour. Probably a happy hour.
<<DH doesn't have faith that this unchoring will work>>
Neither do you, it seems, if you're tapping your foot at three months and
saying "When is this going to work?"
But I'm guessing that somehow in some way you gave your kids a speech and
said "From now on..." and maybe something you said gave them the idea in some
carts-before-horses way that if they leave a mess for someone else to clean (even
if it's a sudden discrete mess they individually and specifically made) you
said something I would never have said.
<<Have I just not given this enough time? Are they
still dechoring?>>
I don't like the term "dechoring" or "choring" or "chore."
Are you living well together as a group? Does it involve freedom and choices
and helping and cooperation? It's not something you can do behind your
husband's back. And maybe it's not something you can do altogether all at once.
Maybe more discussions with the kids about what you would like to see happen
would help. You could say "If it seems there are other ways to go about this,
we can do other things, but because your dad doesn't believe it can work, we
need to figure out an intermediary phase (or something)."
When we've had adult housemates, we've asked them to do things. "Would you
be willing to make breakfast Saturday when we have company?" or "Could you fix
that light fixture when you get a chance?" or "Could you change the laundry
when it's done?" But I wouldn't have "given them chores" and insisted they did
it all the time. And I wouldn't have said, "You don't have to do ANYTHING
around here."
Maybe it wasn't anything you said. Maybe it's just their experimentation to
see if you've just gone crazy and will regain your sanity soon and it will all
be over. So maybe they have no faith that this will work either, and they're
enjoying what they think might just be a lull.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/27/03 10:46:31 AM, mummy124@... writes:
<< I learn to not put my anality (is that a word?) >>
Analosity?
<g>
That sounds really fast though.
Analogous?
(no, wrong "anal")
<< I learn to not put my anality (is that a word?) >>
Analosity?
<g>
That sounds really fast though.
Analogous?
(no, wrong "anal")
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<< Analosity?
<g>
That sounds really fast though.>>
LOL!!! Yeah but in my case, it's probably appropriate!!!!!
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<< Analosity?
<g>
That sounds really fast though.>>
LOL!!! Yeah but in my case, it's probably appropriate!!!!!
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/27/2003 12:23:53 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
It's not something you can do behind your
husband's back.
~~~
If he's coming home and getting upset about some undone chore, he should get
off his high horse and do it himself. That'd be a fine example to follow.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
It's not something you can do behind your
husband's back.
~~~
If he's coming home and getting upset about some undone chore, he should get
off his high horse and do it himself. That'd be a fine example to follow.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Dec 27, 2003, at 10:22 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
This is really helpful. For a bit over a month I've just been cleaning
up. Not asking for help much - just when it was REALLy obviously
somebody else's mess (Roya and Rosie doing collagging on the living
room floor leaving piles and piles of paper scraps) and even then just
asking them to do it while I cheerfully am cleaning up something right
there with them. With the kitchen clean, I'm shopping better - for
foods they want more. Cooking more, less fast food. With the dining
room/living room clean, there is room for them to drag out projects to
do, games to play, etc. Everybody is hanging out more together. I've
been buying scented candles and burning them a lot - house smells nice.
Everybody is happier. I'm doing more housework, but not a LOT more. It
is taking a small effort, still, for me to just get myself up to do it
- not sit around or run out the door with it undone. But the payoff has
been pretty clear to all.
I've noticed the kids are unloading the dishwasher and reloading it
without being asked - every few days. I'm doing it 10 times for anybody
else doing it 1 time, but still --
I can see they are making an effort and it is because they like the
more cleaned-up house, not because I'm nagging or "bansheeing" <G>
Our house is still a mess. Too much stuff, too disorganized. Kids can't
even walk in their rooms - Rosie can't sleep in her own bed it is so
piled up with stuff. But just keeping the dishes done and clutter out
of the main living areas has been a big improvement.
Its only been a month. And the one discouraging part has been that when
I'm gone for a day they don't take care of the clutter or dishes and I
have a pretty big mess to have to deal with when I get home. I'm hoping
that'll change, too.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> If it were one of mine I would say that only AFTER she had cleanedMe.
> other
> people's messes up sweetly and quietly for a long time do they start
> to clean up
> after her. (And I'd say that to moms too. Some moms have done
> little to no
> quiet and sweet cleaning. They've done a lot of grumbling and
> muttering
> cleaning and then they send their family the bill in one way or
> another.)
This is really helpful. For a bit over a month I've just been cleaning
up. Not asking for help much - just when it was REALLy obviously
somebody else's mess (Roya and Rosie doing collagging on the living
room floor leaving piles and piles of paper scraps) and even then just
asking them to do it while I cheerfully am cleaning up something right
there with them. With the kitchen clean, I'm shopping better - for
foods they want more. Cooking more, less fast food. With the dining
room/living room clean, there is room for them to drag out projects to
do, games to play, etc. Everybody is hanging out more together. I've
been buying scented candles and burning them a lot - house smells nice.
Everybody is happier. I'm doing more housework, but not a LOT more. It
is taking a small effort, still, for me to just get myself up to do it
- not sit around or run out the door with it undone. But the payoff has
been pretty clear to all.
I've noticed the kids are unloading the dishwasher and reloading it
without being asked - every few days. I'm doing it 10 times for anybody
else doing it 1 time, but still --
I can see they are making an effort and it is because they like the
more cleaned-up house, not because I'm nagging or "bansheeing" <G>
Our house is still a mess. Too much stuff, too disorganized. Kids can't
even walk in their rooms - Rosie can't sleep in her own bed it is so
piled up with stuff. But just keeping the dishes done and clutter out
of the main living areas has been a big improvement.
Its only been a month. And the one discouraging part has been that when
I'm gone for a day they don't take care of the clutter or dishes and I
have a pretty big mess to have to deal with when I get home. I'm hoping
that'll change, too.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Fetteroll
on 12/26/03 11:26 AM, marbleface@... at marbleface@... wrote:
enough.
rinsed. Scraped, of course. Rinsed out pots. (*Not* scrubbed. Just swirled
water around to get rid of heavy stuff.) I've never had a problem. Even with
old dishwashers. Sometimes a pot won't come clean and I just leave it there
for the dishwasher to try again ;-) If a second trip through doesn't clean
it or I need the space for new dirty stuff, I'll scrub it.
Joyce
> Maybe dishes make other people joyful. Maybe that's why they think I shouldBeing not resentful is an easier goal ;-) And maybe you'll find that's
> be joyful while doing dishes.
enough.
> (Yes, IAre you rinsing? Have you tried just loading the dishes as is? I've *never*
> have a dishwasher, yes, I still hate doing dishes.)
rinsed. Scraped, of course. Rinsed out pots. (*Not* scrubbed. Just swirled
water around to get rid of heavy stuff.) I've never had a problem. Even with
old dishwashers. Sometimes a pot won't come clean and I just leave it there
for the dishwasher to try again ;-) If a second trip through doesn't clean
it or I need the space for new dirty stuff, I'll scrub it.
Joyce
Wife2Vegman
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
The youngest has never been schooled at all.
see our family moving. I was pretty much thinking I
hadn't given it enough time, but I was also thinking
that maybe I was going about it the wrong way as well.
I was wondering if there were suggestions as to how to
approach the children about helping out without it
seeming like I was "telling" them they "have to". It
is very hard to not have them interpret any request as
a "have to", and understanding that it is my fault
they think like that, I still want some help around
here.
When I said we "dropped assigned chores three months
ago" I didn't mean I had just suddenly stopped all
assigned chores (like letting go of the rope, as
Sandra mentioned). Three months ago was really the
end of the slowly letting go which began last summer.
My DH still hasn't completely let go, especially when
the level of grime reaches beyond his tolerance level;
then he starts barking a bit.
It just seems like as I eased up, I also took on the
jobs so that the same level of clean and tidy was
maintained.
Maybe that was deceitful though, to them and to DH.
dried sticky fruit puree all off the counter. And the
child did clean it up quite contritely. Perhaps there
was showing off a bit for the friend on the phone, and
just bad timing for the mom to pick up the extension
at that moment.
sure I have "sent them the bill" many times, whether I
realized it or not.
as much confidence as I claim to. Although I am
really looking for first signs that it is working,
rather than a full-blown smoothly running household.
Upon reflection I do see some things happening, just
with the oldest, such as the bedroom being picked up
or personal laundry being done without being asked.
been. I *do* have that tendency, to make
proclamations and declarations.
It was way back in the summer, when we decided that
freedom was desireable. We had a discussion about how
it might look to not have assigned chores, and how if
everyone just cleaned up after themselves and each
other, we wouldn't have to have weekly or monthly
chores.
But it was just one discussion during the summer, and
perhaps it needs to be revisited to see how well it is
going.
could come up with.
from my "ideal" in my head. Maybe I am thinking we
will turn into "Surviving the Applewhites" or
something. I guess I need to get a real view of *our*
household and how it will look here.
but more of trying to keep his stress level down after
a long days' work. Perhaps you're right,
though...maybe I am being sneaky instead of helpful.
having assigned chores that had to be done whether
they had a free moment or not that they would gladly
just pitch in wherever help was needed, which i see
now is unrealistic. They just don't "see" what needs
doing unless I point it out.
mom, and being free...really free...to let go of
self-imposed rules and regulations. The kids' friends
think my kids have the perfect life, and can't
understand why their own parents don't relax even a
little bit.
I think my kids are a bit stunned too.
Someone mentioned during the dishes discussion how she
collects beautiful plates, not necessarily matched
sets. I was the one stunned. I couldn't believe I
had always thought dishes should match. What FUN!
Sandra, that empowerment thing is snowballing, though,
and rolling down the hill faster and faster, sucking
up different areas of my life. The brilliant hues are
incredible! I don't want the kids and DH to get left
behind, but how the heck do ya control it!? LOL!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
>No, but it was close, I think, for the older children.
>
> Three months wasn't enough for unschooling to start
> working, was it?
The youngest has never been schooled at all.
> I'mNope, never would. This is really the way I want to
> guessing there's a "deschooling" kind of time on
> everything like that. Three
> months is only one season. And some kids will
> change sooner or in different
> ways than others. But if you don't go that
> direction you can never get that
> direction and you'll spend the rest of your life
> trying to make people do things
> they don't want to do.
>
> So if it we somehow could actually know and tell you
> it was going to take
> five years, would you go back to the old way?
see our family moving. I was pretty much thinking I
hadn't given it enough time, but I was also thinking
that maybe I was going about it the wrong way as well.
I was wondering if there were suggestions as to how to
approach the children about helping out without it
seeming like I was "telling" them they "have to". It
is very hard to not have them interpret any request as
a "have to", and understanding that it is my fault
they think like that, I still want some help around
here.
When I said we "dropped assigned chores three months
ago" I didn't mean I had just suddenly stopped all
assigned chores (like letting go of the rope, as
Sandra mentioned). Three months ago was really the
end of the slowly letting go which began last summer.
My DH still hasn't completely let go, especially when
the level of grime reaches beyond his tolerance level;
then he starts barking a bit.
It just seems like as I eased up, I also took on the
jobs so that the same level of clean and tidy was
maintained.
Maybe that was deceitful though, to them and to DH.
>Oh yes! I was NOT pleased at the prospect of cleaning
> -=-One child was overheard by another mom on the
> phone to
> say to a friend, "oops, I spilled my smoothie all
> over
> the counter. Oh well, someone else will clean it
> up".-=-
>
> And did you have a serious talk with that child?
dried sticky fruit puree all off the counter. And the
child did clean it up quite contritely. Perhaps there
was showing off a bit for the friend on the phone, and
just bad timing for the mom to pick up the extension
at that moment.
> (And I'd say that to moms too. SomeOUCH! That one hits way close to home! LOL! I am
> moms have done little to no
> quiet and sweet cleaning. They've done a lot of
> grumbling and muttering
> cleaning and then they send their family the bill in
> one way or another.)
sure I have "sent them the bill" many times, whether I
realized it or not.
>Yep.
>
> Given that, three months is like an hour. Probably a
> happy hour.
>That is something to consider. Perhaps I don't have
> <<DH doesn't have faith that this unchoring will
> work>>
>
> Neither do you, it seems, if you're tapping your
> foot at three months and
> saying "When is this going to work?"
as much confidence as I claim to. Although I am
really looking for first signs that it is working,
rather than a full-blown smoothly running household.
Upon reflection I do see some things happening, just
with the oldest, such as the bedroom being picked up
or personal laundry being done without being asked.
>I don't know if it was a speech, but it could have
> But I'm guessing that somehow in some way you gave
> your kids a speech and
> said "From now on..." and maybe something you said
> gave them the idea in some
> carts-before-horses way that if they leave a mess
> for someone else to clean (even
> if it's a sudden discrete mess they individually and
> specifically made) you
> said something I would never have said.
been. I *do* have that tendency, to make
proclamations and declarations.
It was way back in the summer, when we decided that
freedom was desireable. We had a discussion about how
it might look to not have assigned chores, and how if
everyone just cleaned up after themselves and each
other, we wouldn't have to have weekly or monthly
chores.
But it was just one discussion during the summer, and
perhaps it needs to be revisited to see how well it is
going.
>For lack of brain power this morning, that is all I
> I don't like the term "dechoring" or "choring" or
> "chore."
could come up with.
> Are you living well together as a group? Does itI see progress in that direction, but so much further
> involve freedom and choices
> and helping and cooperation?
from my "ideal" in my head. Maybe I am thinking we
will turn into "Surviving the Applewhites" or
something. I guess I need to get a real view of *our*
household and how it will look here.
> It's not something youOooh. I never thought of it as going behind his back,
> can do behind your
> husband's back.
but more of trying to keep his stress level down after
a long days' work. Perhaps you're right,
though...maybe I am being sneaky instead of helpful.
> And maybe it's not something youI think I expected them to be so happy about not
> can do altogether all at once.
> Maybe more discussions with the kids about what you
> would like to see happen
> would help. You could say "If it seems there are
> other ways to go about this,
> we can do other things, but because your dad doesn't
> believe it can work, we
> need to figure out an intermediary phase (or
> something)."
>
> When we've had adult housemates, we've asked them to
> do things. "Would you
> be willing to make breakfast Saturday when we have
> company?" or "Could you fix
> that light fixture when you get a chance?" or "Could
> you change the laundry
> when it's done?" But I wouldn't have "given them
> chores" and insisted they did
> it all the time. And I wouldn't have said, "You
> don't have to do ANYTHING
> around here."
having assigned chores that had to be done whether
they had a free moment or not that they would gladly
just pitch in wherever help was needed, which i see
now is unrealistic. They just don't "see" what needs
doing unless I point it out.
>I'm really enjoying being the cool mom and the fun
> Maybe it wasn't anything you said. Maybe it's just
> their experimentation to
> see if you've just gone crazy and will regain your
> sanity soon and it will all
> be over. So maybe they have no faith that this will
> work either, and they're
> enjoying what they think might just be a lull.
>
mom, and being free...really free...to let go of
self-imposed rules and regulations. The kids' friends
think my kids have the perfect life, and can't
understand why their own parents don't relax even a
little bit.
I think my kids are a bit stunned too.
Someone mentioned during the dishes discussion how she
collects beautiful plates, not necessarily matched
sets. I was the one stunned. I couldn't believe I
had always thought dishes should match. What FUN!
Sandra, that empowerment thing is snowballing, though,
and rolling down the hill faster and faster, sucking
up different areas of my life. The brilliant hues are
incredible! I don't want the kids and DH to get left
behind, but how the heck do ya control it!? LOL!
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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In a message dated 12/27/03 1:58:59 PM, wifetovegman2002@... writes:
<< that empowerment thing is snowballing, though,
and rolling down the hill faster and faster, sucking
up different areas of my life. The brilliant hues are
incredible! I don't want the kids and DH to get left
behind, but how the heck do ya control it!? LOL! >>
Once in a while I express my enthusiasm to one of them.
I'll say "I am SO GLAD we are able to get along so well even though we have
teens," or "I am really happy with the way that [whatever] went."
It has helped immensely each time my husband has reason to be around other
kids our kids' ages. When they were little he would sometimes say he thought
maybe they should be doing this or that better or quicker or that they seemed
irresponsible, and I would say "Compared to WHAT!?" and he was just comparing
them to his perception of what he thought his mom's fantasy idea was, or some
convoluted unreal thing. So I made it a point to try to get him where he could
see other kids, or get other kids to our house and once he saw his own kids
in the company of others their age, he was more impressed with them and he
backed way off.
Now I can tell quite often how proud and impressed he is with them himself
without my coaching. They're not the kind of kids it's worth going on a talk
show to brag up. They're not curing cancer or building computers or selling
paintings or anything. But they made solid eye contact with anyone, and they
think of something helpful and clever to do or say in appropriate situations.
Sandra
<< that empowerment thing is snowballing, though,
and rolling down the hill faster and faster, sucking
up different areas of my life. The brilliant hues are
incredible! I don't want the kids and DH to get left
behind, but how the heck do ya control it!? LOL! >>
Once in a while I express my enthusiasm to one of them.
I'll say "I am SO GLAD we are able to get along so well even though we have
teens," or "I am really happy with the way that [whatever] went."
It has helped immensely each time my husband has reason to be around other
kids our kids' ages. When they were little he would sometimes say he thought
maybe they should be doing this or that better or quicker or that they seemed
irresponsible, and I would say "Compared to WHAT!?" and he was just comparing
them to his perception of what he thought his mom's fantasy idea was, or some
convoluted unreal thing. So I made it a point to try to get him where he could
see other kids, or get other kids to our house and once he saw his own kids
in the company of others their age, he was more impressed with them and he
backed way off.
Now I can tell quite often how proud and impressed he is with them himself
without my coaching. They're not the kind of kids it's worth going on a talk
show to brag up. They're not curing cancer or building computers or selling
paintings or anything. But they made solid eye contact with anyone, and they
think of something helpful and clever to do or say in appropriate situations.
Sandra