e400clb

What do you do when your child screams "I hate you!!" Or: "I hate my
brother!! I wish he had never been born!! I don't want a brother!!"

I need some ideas.

:) Carly

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/23/2003 4:46:58 PM Mountain Standard Time,
e400clb@... writes:
-=-What do you do when your child screams "I hate you!!" Or: "I hate my
brother!! I wish he had never been born!! I don't want a brother!!"

-=-I need some ideas.-=-

I would look several moves back in the game.
What did you do before he said "I hate you"?
What did his brother do before he said he hated his brother?

Things are wrong that are bigger and worse than the child's reaction.

Have older members of the family have expressed feelings this strong about
people or things? Is hating people (or saying so) a thing he hears or feels
outside himself?

How old is he? was he an only child before the brother came along?
If so, I think that's a MUCH bigger deal than anyone begins to realize who
wasn't a firstborn.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wife2Vegman

--- e400clb <e400clb@...> wrote:
> What do you do when your child screams "I hate
> you!!" Or: "I hate my
> brother!! I wish he had never been born!! I don't
> want a brother!!"
>
> I need some ideas.
>
> :) Carly
>
>

How old is your child?

My 5yo sometimes says this to me. Sometimes he says
it about his brother.

I used to say, "you don't mean that". But I realize
that at that moment he really does mean it.

It is ok.

He is angry and frustrated and can't think of any
other way to express it.

Usually I say, "you are angry at me because I
couldn't/didn't/wouldn't (fill in the blank)". Then I
tell him that I love him even if he is angry and even
if he says mean things to me, and that when he is not
so angry we can talk about it.

Usually in a few minutes he says, "I don't hate you.
I love you."

Then we talk.

Sometimes he stays angry for a long time. And
sometimes now he will say, "I am really angry at you
because..."



=====
--Susan in Sterling, VA

"This child is a natural product. The slight variations in growth,
development and temperament enhance his or her individual character
and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects." -- from the unschoolingdiscussion email list

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e400clb

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> I would look several moves back in the game.
> What did you do before he said "I hate you"?

Told him to sit on his bed, after he took a Christmas present and
threw it at the wall. Yes, my tone was angry, though not, I don't
know, enraged. Just strong. But he says this frequently to each of
us in the family with very little provocation. He definitely thinks
everything should go his way, and anything that isn't entirely in
his favor is a huge injustice, in his eyes.

And NO... we have NEVER said this to him or anything like it. In
fact, we've frequently told him, "You'll never hear me say that to
you."

> What did his brother do before he said he hated his brother?

Wouldn't let him take away a toy. Asked to watch a tv show he didn't
want to watch. You name it. Thankfully, his little brother has NOT
picked up this phrase, and is just more mild manndered and less
emotionally intense than his brother.
>
> Things are wrong that are bigger and worse than the child's
reaction.

Or... the child's reaction is bigger than the thing that is
wrong. :)

> How old is he? was he an only child before the brother came along?

He is 6 1/2 and he was 2 1/2 when his brother was born. Of course
this was an adjustment, but one he was thrilled about. He never had
any of the "jealousy" that we were told to expect. And he hasn't
started saying this until a few months ago.

I think it's not an unusual thing for kids to say this. It's
just ... what do you do about it? We have told him this is not the
way family members speak to each other, but that hasn't stopped it.
I don't want to spank him for it, but I need to have *something*
else because it's just not okay and it shouldn't continue.

Carly

gehrkes

I am taking my walk today with my just turned eight year old
daughter and she says to me.. SOmetimes when I see a star I wish I
was the only child in our family.... My response,, WOuldn't you be
lonely.. Her,, No I would have my pets.. I know she loves her sibs..
All seven of them, but a desire or feeling is just that.. She is
currently teaching her 14 year old sister how to play in BRATZ. com
Kathleen














--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/23/2003 4:46:58 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> e400clb@y... writes:
> -=-What do you do when your child screams "I hate you!!" Or: "I
hate my
> brother!! I wish he had never been born!! I don't want a brother!!"
>
> -=-I need some ideas.-=-
>
> I would look several moves back in the game.
> What did you do before he said "I hate you"?
> What did his brother do before he said he hated his brother?
>
> Things are wrong that are bigger and worse than the child's
reaction.
>
> Have older members of the family have expressed feelings this
strong about
> people or things? Is hating people (or saying so) a thing he
hears or feels
> outside himself?
>
> How old is he? was he an only child before the brother came along?
> If so, I think that's a MUCH bigger deal than anyone begins to
realize who
> wasn't a firstborn.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

e400clb

--- In [email protected], Wife2Vegman
<wifetovegman2002@y...> wrote:

> My 5yo sometimes says this to me. Sometimes he says
> it about his brother.
...
> It is ok.
>
> He is angry and frustrated and can't think of any
> other way to express it.

Yes! I think you're right. I have said the same things you
mentioned, and often, just as you said, he will a few minutes (or
hours) come back and cuddle in my lap and say, "I love you, mom!"
Once he wrote his dad a note that said, "I'm vry mad at you but I
still love you."

Still, the level of his anger and fury are off the map, and just
unacceptable, in my mind. In fact, after I wrote this, he screamed
at me, "I'm going to kill you!"

I DON'T know where he gets this. I have never, never, never told him
I hate him, or that I will kill him, or threatened bodily or
physical harm. Neither has his dad or brother. There have been a few
times in his life when I have (and I'm ashamed of this) really,
really yelled at him. But never threatened him.

We also watch very carefully what he watches on tv, and the computer
games he plays. He watches NOTHING but PBS and only a few of those
shows. Also videos like Finding Nemo, etc. We are pretty careful. He
has *not* watched Shrek though many people recommended it. I saw 5
minutes of it and I knew it wasn't something i wanted him to see.

Last week he was diagnosed with ADHD, and the doctor said he is
borderline "oppositional."

I've thought that kids with ODD are probably learning this behavior
at home. But other than those few times I really lost it and raised
my voice, I cannot think of anything in our home that would have
caused this. We have a very nurturing, loving, home. Not perfect,
but pretty good, by most standards. We took a positive parenting
class this fall, and the instructor mentioned to me that when she
has observed our interactions with our kids, that they are very
positive and healthy.

Anyway, I'm going on and on. Thanks for writing. I'm just hoping for
ideas, because I have found that networking with other parents like
this can sometimes be hugely helpful, and people have ideas that
work great, but that I wouldn't have thought of it on my own.

THANKS again!

:) Carly

gehrkes

He sounds a lot like my nine year old son Levi. WHo is extremely hot
tempered. Anytime things do not go his way he goes into a bit of a
fit.. He raises his hands and says "oh great.. That is just not fair
and then lists the reasons life has done him wrong." I do not find
that "discipline" works with him. Just aversion.. Like I watch and
help him negotiate.. He and his brother both wanted the same stick..
Yes My kids fight over flippin' sticks<G>. I asked how we could work
it out. My daughter popped up with a coin toss.. I checked with both
boys to see if that would solve it for them and they would accept
the results.He started with why he should get the stick.. I
said "then I guess a coin toss will not work.." He then calmly said
he would agree to the toss. He accepted defeat graciously.
Congratulating his brother. I think feeling empowered is very
important to him. When I am having fits it is usually because I feel
powerless and out of control.
I am not sure if this is helpful for you or not.
Kathleen




--- In [email protected], "e400clb"
<e400clb@y...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a...
wrote:
> >
> > I would look several moves back in the game.
> > What did you do before he said "I hate you"?
>
> Told him to sit on his bed, after he took a Christmas present and
> threw it at the wall. Yes, my tone was angry, though not, I don't
> know, enraged. Just strong. But he says this frequently to each of
> us in the family with very little provocation. He definitely
thinks
> everything should go his way, and anything that isn't entirely in
> his favor is a huge injustice, in his eyes.
>
> And NO... we have NEVER said this to him or anything like it. In
> fact, we've frequently told him, "You'll never hear me say that to
> you."
>
> > What did his brother do before he said he hated his brother?
>
> Wouldn't let him take away a toy. Asked to watch a tv show he
didn't
> want to watch. You name it. Thankfully, his little brother has NOT
> picked up this phrase, and is just more mild manndered and less
> emotionally intense than his brother.
> >
> > Things are wrong that are bigger and worse than the child's
> reaction.
>
> Or... the child's reaction is bigger than the thing that is
> wrong. :)
>
> > How old is he? was he an only child before the brother came
along?
>
> He is 6 1/2 and he was 2 1/2 when his brother was born. Of course
> this was an adjustment, but one he was thrilled about. He never
had
> any of the "jealousy" that we were told to expect. And he hasn't
> started saying this until a few months ago.
>
> I think it's not an unusual thing for kids to say this. It's
> just ... what do you do about it? We have told him this is not the
> way family members speak to each other, but that hasn't stopped
it.
> I don't want to spank him for it, but I need to have *something*
> else because it's just not okay and it shouldn't continue.
>
> Carly

Danielle E. Conger

At 06:53 PM 12/23/2003 -0500, SandraDodd@... wrote:
>I would look several moves back in the game.
>What did you do before he said "I hate you"?
>What did his brother do before he said he hated his brother?

While I think this is really good advice, it doesn't always provide the
answer. At least not in my house. My youngest (and my only boy, for
whatever that's worth) has had serious anger management issues his whole
3.5 years. ;) Yes, 3.5 is not that old, and yes, anger and frustration come
with the territory, absolutely.

But, having always practiced attachment parenting with him and his two
older siblings (all my kids are 17 months apart), and always having had a
very loving atmosphere in our home, Sam's behavior can be way over the top.
He will hit, yell, hurl things, bang things, you name it. My mother in law
tried giving him one of those blow-up punching bag things, as if I hadn't
tried to show him appropriate outlets for his behavior. Well, that did
nothing for him whatsoever. One minute he would be my sweet little boy, and
the next he'd be enraged. There was nothing predictable in what would set
him off; he was not exposed to any behavior of this sort. He would
literally run across an entire room just to hit someone instead of just
pitching his fit where he was. It was as if he just HAD to hit someone. As
he's gotten a bit older, some of this rage has become more verbal, kind of
like you're describing.

About a year ago, I started to bring up his extreme behavior to my
pediatrician, who pretty much told me that I had two wonderful children,
and now I was just dealing with a high-need child who was also a boy. Boys
will be boys--maybe, but that's no excuse for throwing blocks at your
sister's head or kicking your mother.

I totally agree that birth order can play a big part in this. My Sam's not
the oldest but the youngest, and I'm sure this is difficult for him.
Frustration is high because he wants to be able to do everything his
sisters do. In many ways he can, but in lots of ways he can't. Still, this
didn't provide the answers to my puzzle.

I am seriously looking into the possibility of food allergies/
sensitivities. Sam has many classic signs, even if my pediatrician doesn't
buy the link between behavior and food allergies--red-rimmed ears, red
sand-paper cheeks, nail biting, chewing on sleeves and the corners of his
blanket. We've only been working on this for about two weeks, but already
I've seen some really positive responses in him. He's much easier to
comfort. He regains control far more quickly. He's less likely to lose
control in the first place. When he would throw tantrums, it was like he
was inside a monster, looking out and having no control over what he was
doing or saying. There was fear in his eyes, and it was heartbreaking. I've
spoken to adults with food allergies, and they've described it in precisely
these terms, saying things like, "It's like trying to climb out of your own
skin."

I started by listening to some well-meaning friends who've dealt with
similar issues. I recently checked out the book, "Is this Your Child" by
Dorris Rapp, MD. This may have nothing to do with your situation, but feel
free to email me off-list if you want to talk about any of this.

--danielle

pam sorooshian

On Dec 23, 2003, at 4:12 PM, e400clb wrote:

> I think it's not an unusual thing for kids to say this. It's
> just ... what do you do about it? We have told him this is not the
> way family members speak to each other, but that hasn't stopped it.
> I don't want to spank him for it, but I need to have *something*
> else because it's just not okay and it shouldn't continue.

Carly,

I think he's using that particular statement because it has power. The
feelings within him feel powerful and worthy of such strong words.
Maybe you can hear it in your own head translated as: "I am so
frustrated and I want power and control but I'm little and weak and
dependent and I want to be the center of the world but I'm not because
there are other people who get in the way and I don't know what to do
besides scream the strongest thing I can think of to scream."

Its normal and healthy for him to want to be strong and independent and
to be the focus of people who care about him.

Think about helping him learn to express strong emotions more
articulately so that in the future he'll be in the habit of saying what
he means. When he grows up and gets married, his wife will thank you if
he knows how to express what he is feeling in ways other than exploding
in hostility, right?

If you haven't read them, please don't miss: "How to Talk so Kids will
Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk" and "Siblings Without Rivalry"
both by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlisch.

And last, but not least, "The Explosive Child," by Ross Greene is also
very useful for people with strong-emotion children like yours.

Do yourself a BIG favor and get these right away and read them soon.
You won't regret it.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Danielle E. Conger

At 12:24 AM 12/24/2003 +0000, e400clb wrote:
>Last week he was diagnosed with ADHD, and the doctor said he is
>borderline "oppositional."

Oh Carly, you are so describing what we're going through! Really, check out
the Feingold organization at www.feingold.org (I think someone on this list
recommended it to me, and it's also in the book I told you about). Feingold
found his diet particularly helpful for kids being diagnosed with ADD and
ADHD! This is something I *KNOW* would be in Sam's future if he were in the
school system, and I thank goodness he won't be just about every day!

I have read two of the books Pam has recommended and found them helpful in
my parenting. I have also employed many of Dr. Sears's discipline ideas and
those from the Positive Discipline books, but they really don't help that
much with my little guy. The girls--yes, they are wonderful, treat each
other's respectfully, you name it, because they have always been treated
that way. But there's just something more with Sam--something totally over
the top and out of control. It's so hard to explain unless you're dealing
with it yourself!

Hang in there, and keep looking for answers. He has the most powerful ally
on his side--a mom who loves him!

--danielle

zenmomma2kids

>>Thankfully, his little brother has NOT picked up this phrase, and
is just more mild manndered and less emotionally intense than his
brother. >>

Intensity can be hard to manage for little ones. Have you read
Raising Your Spirited Child or The Highly Sensitive Child? Both are
full of good suggestions and calming, accepting words. (accepting of
the child and his temperament.) Just a guess, but are you more mild
mannered like your younger child?

>>Or... the child's reaction is bigger than the thing that is
wrong. :)

Probably not from his point of view.

>>And he hasn't started saying this until a few months ago.>>

Anything new happen a few months ago?

>>I think it's not an unusual thing for kids to say this.>>

I guess. My kids never have.

>>We have told him this is not the way family members speak to each
other>>

But that's not true. He's a family member and he's been saying it. I
think you need to listen to him and try to understand what's
underneath and behind his words. I don't think he really hates any of
you, but he's having trouble articulating his true frrustrations and
feelings in a better way. And he is obviously very upset about
something if he's using this powerful phrase that's so sure to bring
a BIG parental reaction.

>>I don't want to spank him for it>>

Well good. :o) I wouldn't want you to give him a reason to really
hate you.

>>but I need to have *something* else because it's just not okay and
it shouldn't continue.>>

Then I think you should find out the *why* behind how he's behaving,
not just try to stop the behavior because it's upsetting you.

Life is good.
~Mary

zenmomma2kids

>>We also watch very carefully what he watches on tv, and the
computer games he plays. He watches NOTHING but PBS and only a few of
those shows. Also videos like Finding Nemo, etc. We are pretty
careful. He has *not* watched Shrek though many people recommended
it. I saw 5 minutes of it and I knew it wasn't something i wanted him
to see.

Last week he was diagnosed with ADHD, and the doctor said he is
borderline "oppositional." >>

Maybe he's opposing all those limits on his choices and labels on his
soul.

>>But other than those few times I really lost it and raised my
voice, I cannot think of anything in our home that would have caused
this.>>

Does he hear more "no" or "yes" to his requests?

Life is good.
~Mary

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/23/2003 5:20:45 PM Mountain Standard Time,
e400clb@... writes:
-=-> What did you do before he said "I hate you"?

-=-Told him to sit on his bed, after he took a Christmas present and
threw it at the wall. -=-

You didn't back up far enough, then.

Why did he throw a present at the wall?

There's something wrong. He needs MORE attention, not less. He needs MORE
love, not punishment.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Dec 23, 2003, at 4:24 PM, e400clb wrote:

> Still, the level of his anger and fury are off the map, and just
> unacceptable, in my mind.

Be careful - you just said, here, that his feelings are unacceptable.

This is one of the hardest things about parenting strong emotional kids
- it is so hard to accept their feelings as legitimate.

You probably think you meant that his behavior is unacceptable. But
really stop and think harder about this - because what you SAID was
that his anger and fury are unacceptable.

You'll do him a lot more good if you accept his anger and fury.

It is so hard - especially when it seems completely unreasonable and
such an overreaction to some little thing, to us - not to operate out
of an attitude of "he shouldn't feel that way."

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Dec 23, 2003, at 4:24 PM, e400clb wrote:

> We also watch very carefully what he watches on tv, and the computer
> games he plays. He watches NOTHING but PBS and only a few of those
> shows. Also videos like Finding Nemo, etc. We are pretty careful. He
> has *not* watched Shrek though many people recommended it. I saw 5
> minutes of it and I knew it wasn't something i wanted him to see.
>
Maybe you're being too careful.

> Last week he was diagnosed with ADHD, and the doctor said he is
> borderline "oppositional."

Maybe he's being rebellious/oppositional because you're being
controlling.

Just something to consider.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

e400clb

--- In [email protected], "zenmomma2kids"
>
> Maybe he's opposing all those limits on his choices and labels on
>his
> soul.

LOL!!! Funny!

Labels on his soul!! Cute!

:) Carly

Holly Furgason

All of my kids at one time or another have told us or their sibs that
they hate them. I think it's normal and they probably really feel it
at the time. My youngest (9yog) however, has Tourette's and it's one
of her vocal tics which beats the heck out of other choices. :-) I
just smile, look at her and say "I love you."

Holly

--- In [email protected], "gehrkes"
<gehrkes@y...> wrote:
>
> I am taking my walk today with my just turned eight year old
> daughter and she says to me.. SOmetimes when I see a star I wish I
> was the only child in our family.... My response,, WOuldn't you be
> lonely.. Her,, No I would have my pets.. I know she loves her
sibs..
> All seven of them, but a desire or feeling is just that.. She is
> currently teaching her 14 year old sister how to play in BRATZ. com
> Kathleen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 12/23/2003 4:46:58 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> > e400clb@y... writes:
> > -=-What do you do when your child screams "I hate you!!" Or: "I
> hate my
> > brother!! I wish he had never been born!! I don't want a
brother!!"
> >
> > -=-I need some ideas.-=-
> >
> > I would look several moves back in the game.
> > What did you do before he said "I hate you"?
> > What did his brother do before he said he hated his brother?
> >
> > Things are wrong that are bigger and worse than the child's
> reaction.
> >
> > Have older members of the family have expressed feelings this
> strong about
> > people or things? Is hating people (or saying so) a thing he
> hears or feels
> > outside himself?
> >
> > How old is he? was he an only child before the brother came
along?
> > If so, I think that's a MUCH bigger deal than anyone begins to
> realize who
> > wasn't a firstborn.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

e400clb

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/23/2003 5:20:45 PM Mountain Standard Time,
>
> You didn't back up far enough, then.
>
> Why did he throw a present at the wall?

After I wrote this, I realized you would ask this, so okay, here's
the "rest of the story":

There are a few gifts under the tree. We put most of them out on
Christmas Eve after the kids are asleep, but there are some there
just for fun. Joel decided it would be fun to separate his brother's
gifts from his own, and went about creating two piles. Fine. His
brother, who had carefully picked out a gift for his dad, and then
wrapped it and put it under the tree, wanted to put that gift in his
own pile. But Joel was deadset against it. I told him if his brother
wanted it in his pile, that was okay. It is a gift from him to his
dad and he can put it where he wants. But Joel was adamant, and so
upset, he picked up the present and threw it at the wall. At which
point, I sent him to his bed.
>
> There's something wrong. He needs MORE attention, not less. He
>needs MORE
> love, not punishment.
>
> Sandra

Sandra, I know you are well-intentioned, but without being in my
home, how can you make a judgement about the amount of attention he
receives or needs, or how much love he receives or needs?

One thing I have learned is that moms need (unless they are actually
abusive) to be *affirmed* as much as possible, because the reality
is, they are with their kids pretty much 24/7 (esp stay at home,
home-schooling moms) and if mom believes she's a failure, she will
walk in that. If mom learns to trust her natural nurturing instincts
and that they are *good* and that she is a good mom and a good
person, she will walk in that! I'm surprised and dismayed at how
many times people will insinuate that something she thinks or does
is wrong... when it is usually just a different opinion about
approach. This is so prevalent and, I think, the reason so many moms
end up feeling isolated. Because if she asks for help, surely
someone is going to say, "You're doing everything wrong" which isn't
a far cry from "you're a bad mom." And if mom has any insecurities
about that, then this can lead to more isolation.

Carly

Holly Furgason

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> There's something wrong. He needs MORE attention, not less. He
needs MORE
> love, not punishment.

Absolutely.

Holly

24hrmom

<Maybe he's opposing all those limits on his choices and labels on his soul.>

<< LOL!!! Funny! Labels on his soul!! Cute! >>


I don't think she meant to be funny ... I think she meant to convey the depth to which those labels may affect him.

Pam L


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/23/2003 6:36:54 PM Mountain Standard Time,
e400clb@... writes:
> Maybe he's opposing all those limits on his choices and labels on
>his
> soul.

LOL!!! Funny!

Labels on his soul!! Cute!
----------------

Not at all funny.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyle W.

I think finding out why this is happening is more important that figuring out how to deal with it. You sound fed up and a little angry with him, maybe he feels the same way about something. His feelings are as real as yours. There is something wrong, something he feels very strongly about, but maybe doesn't know how to express what he's feeling, so he lashes out.

Different things upset different people, and trying to understand his feelings will help more than trying to get him to suppress his feelings. Once he feels that he's not alone with his feelings, and someone really does understand, there may be nothing to suppress.

Lyle



On Dec 23, 2003, at 4:24 PM, e400clb wrote:

> Still, the level of his anger and fury are off the map, and just
> unacceptable, in my mind.

Be careful - you just said, here, that his feelings are unacceptable.

This is one of the hardest things about parenting strong emotional kids
- it is so hard to accept their feelings as legitimate.

You probably think you meant that his behavior is unacceptable. But
really stop and think harder about this - because what you SAID was
that his anger and fury are unacceptable.

You'll do him a lot more good if you accept his anger and fury.

It is so hard - especially when it seems completely unreasonable and
such an overreaction to some little thing, to us - not to operate out
of an attitude of "he shouldn't feel that way."

-pam


***Always remember, Lead By Example***

--
___________________________________________________________
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pam sorooshian

Based on many years of observing and talking to many many moms and
their kids, I think it is safe to say that extremely attentive and
loving behavior will help an explosive child far more than punishment.
It doesn't mean you need to "love him" more and doesn't mean you don't
love him enough.

You have a problem that you brought here that you're worried about and
people are giving you ideas. If they're wrong, let them go by. People
don't know you and could be way off track - they only can go by what
you've said.

Two things you might want to keep in mind: (1) those things that upset
you most, that seem to you to be attacks on your parenting - those are
the places you might want to look most closely and (2) remember back
when it said "read the list for a while" before posting but you said
you hadn't done that? That would have been a good idea before you
brought up your own personal issues since it appears that you didn't
realize that this is not a "support" or "affirmation" group - but an
analytical critical thinking discussion list.

-pam

On Dec 23, 2003, at 5:43 PM, e400clb wrote:

> without being in my
> home, how can you make a judgement about the amount of attention he
> receives or needs, or how much love he receives or needs?
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Susan Gallien

When one of mine said that I said to her something along the line of: "I'm sure that you don't hate me... you just hate just something that I did. I never hate you, but sometimes I really don't like what you do and I think that it how you are feeling right now."


Sue Gallien
The Winona Farm, Minnesota
http://thewinonafarm.com


----- Original Message -----
From: e400clb
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 2:30 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] I hate you!!


What do you do when your child screams "I hate you!!" Or: "I hate my
brother!! I wish he had never been born!! I don't want a brother!!"

I need some ideas.

:) Carly


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/23/2003 6:59:57 PM Mountain Standard Time,
unschoolingdad@... writes:
-=-His feelings are as real as yours. There is something wrong, something he
feels very strongly about, but maybe doesn't know how to express what he's
feeling-=-


Maybe there is a family friend, an outside adult, who could talk to him about
why he's frustrated. Maybe if he spends a few hours with someone you both
trust he'll open up.

It seems from what has been written (and all we have to go on is our own
experiences and what has been written) that he has frustrations which are being
overlooked or devalued.

My oldest had VERY quick adrenaline when he was little. He was easily
frustrated with his brother. What we did that helped more than anything was to
teach him to breathe deeply when he was angry, or hurt, or frustrated. "Breathe!"


He would say that to me sometimes, too, if I was getting frustrated or I'd
stubbed my toe or whatever. It helps immediately.

Different people's biochemistry is so different sometimes we can't imagine
what others are reacting to if they're quick to heat up and blow. And some
people are quite laid back, not because they're mature or "self controlled," but
just because their adrenaline is slow to rise.

But adrenaline can be dissipated by taking deep, long breaths, holding them;
exhaling slowly; taking another breath... and after just two or three you can
tell the difference.

We would breathe with him and keep eye contact with him, and he appreciated
being rescued/assisted because he didn't like the effect of losing his temper.

Now, at 17, he's the calmest person in our family. Maybe because he learned
so long ago that he COULD control his mood. Maybe because of his years of
karate. Maybe he just 'grew out of it.' Probably some of all of that.
Largely, we have worked to make his life comfortable and sensible and safe.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

----- Original Message -----
From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>

** You'll do him a lot more good if you accept his anger and fury.**

Yes! This is why you *have* to read _How to Talk So Your Kids Listen..._

After I read that and learned to acknowledge how my kids were feeling, it
was amazing how the blow ups stopped happening. I could just see the anger
dissipate after I would say, "you're really angry aren't you" instead of
saying "stop it" or "you don't mean that". They would feel better and we
could talk about it.

That book is wonderful.

Kelli~

J. Stauffer

Danielle,

Could I also email you offlist? My 5 yo is having a terrible time with his
temper and just "wild, off the wall" careening behavior almost all the time.
It is to the point that none of his 4 siblings will hardly even play with
him. You never know what is going to happen. He is very giddy or very mad
constantly.

this might be something for us to consider.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danielle E. Conger" <danielle.conger@...>
To: <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] I hate you!!


> At 06:53 PM 12/23/2003 -0500, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> >I would look several moves back in the game.
> >What did you do before he said "I hate you"?
> >What did his brother do before he said he hated his brother?
>
> While I think this is really good advice, it doesn't always provide the
> answer. At least not in my house. My youngest (and my only boy, for
> whatever that's worth) has had serious anger management issues his whole
> 3.5 years. ;) Yes, 3.5 is not that old, and yes, anger and frustration
come
> with the territory, absolutely.
>
> But, having always practiced attachment parenting with him and his two
> older siblings (all my kids are 17 months apart), and always having had a
> very loving atmosphere in our home, Sam's behavior can be way over the
top.
> He will hit, yell, hurl things, bang things, you name it. My mother in law
> tried giving him one of those blow-up punching bag things, as if I hadn't
> tried to show him appropriate outlets for his behavior. Well, that did
> nothing for him whatsoever. One minute he would be my sweet little boy,
and
> the next he'd be enraged. There was nothing predictable in what would set
> him off; he was not exposed to any behavior of this sort. He would
> literally run across an entire room just to hit someone instead of just
> pitching his fit where he was. It was as if he just HAD to hit someone. As
> he's gotten a bit older, some of this rage has become more verbal, kind of
> like you're describing.
>
> About a year ago, I started to bring up his extreme behavior to my
> pediatrician, who pretty much told me that I had two wonderful children,
> and now I was just dealing with a high-need child who was also a boy. Boys
> will be boys--maybe, but that's no excuse for throwing blocks at your
> sister's head or kicking your mother.
>
> I totally agree that birth order can play a big part in this. My Sam's not
> the oldest but the youngest, and I'm sure this is difficult for him.
> Frustration is high because he wants to be able to do everything his
> sisters do. In many ways he can, but in lots of ways he can't. Still, this
> didn't provide the answers to my puzzle.
>
> I am seriously looking into the possibility of food allergies/
> sensitivities. Sam has many classic signs, even if my pediatrician doesn't
> buy the link between behavior and food allergies--red-rimmed ears, red
> sand-paper cheeks, nail biting, chewing on sleeves and the corners of his
> blanket. We've only been working on this for about two weeks, but already
> I've seen some really positive responses in him. He's much easier to
> comfort. He regains control far more quickly. He's less likely to lose
> control in the first place. When he would throw tantrums, it was like he
> was inside a monster, looking out and having no control over what he was
> doing or saying. There was fear in his eyes, and it was heartbreaking.
I've
> spoken to adults with food allergies, and they've described it in
precisely
> these terms, saying things like, "It's like trying to climb out of your
own
> skin."
>
> I started by listening to some well-meaning friends who've dealt with
> similar issues. I recently checked out the book, "Is this Your Child" by
> Dorris Rapp, MD. This may have nothing to do with your situation, but feel
> free to email me off-list if you want to talk about any of this.
>
> --danielle
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/23/2003 5:46:49 PM Central Standard Time,
e400clb@... writes:
What do you do when your child screams "I hate you!!" Or: "I hate my
brother!! I wish he had never been born!! I don't want a brother!!"

~~~

I have one who used to say things like this when he was really little and
really frustrated. He would also say he hated himself, which, believe it or not,
is more heartbreaking to hear than "I hate you!"

I would usually say something like, "Well, I love you, and I think you'll
feel differently at another time." Sometimes I said, "I will love you forever,
no matter how you feel about me." And I wouldn't be flip about it or kidding
or mock serious. I was absolutely serious. Sometimes what I said would be
accompanied by a tight squeeze or locking eyes with him, if he would let me.
Sometimes, after that, I would say, "It hurts me to hear you say that."

I handled it this way because I have a history of depression, and I believe
at those moments when I was feeling like I hated everyone but mostly myself,
was that I really wanted reassurance that I was loved.

I really didn't want to acknowledge his feelings of self-hatred, so I avoided
actually discussing the feelings. That was too hard for me. That might not
have been the best tactic, but it was all I could do at the time. Eventually
it ended. I'm not saying he doesn't still have those feelings, but he doesn't
lash out anymore. I think it's simply because he aged out of it.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

liza sabater

On Tuesday, December 23, 2003, at 09:44 PM, J. Stauffer wrote:
>> I am seriously looking into the possibility of food allergies/
>> sensitivities. Sam has many classic signs, even if my pediatrician
>> doesn't
>> buy the link between behavior and food allergies--red-rimmed ears, red
>> sand-paper cheeks, nail biting, chewing on sleeves and the corners of
>> his
>> blanket. We've only been working on this for about two weeks, but
>> already
>> I've seen some really positive responses in him. He's much easier to
>> comfort. He regains control far more quickly. He's less likely to lose
>> control in the first place. When he would throw tantrums, it was like
>> he
>> was inside a monster, looking out and having no control over what he
>> was
>> doing or saying. There was fear in his eyes, and it was heartbreaking.
> I've
>> spoken to adults with food allergies, and they've described it in
> precisely
>> these terms, saying things like, "It's like trying to climb out of
>> your
> own
>> skin."



i'm subscribed to 2 really good lists

[email protected]
[email protected]

good places to start with. also, --- i have to do this search myself--
but quite a few of us have posted here about our kids and food
allergies. i've been here for 2 years so i know mine go back that far.
just do a search on the archives.

best,


l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/23/2003 7:36:59 PM Central Standard Time,
e400clb@... writes:
> Maybe he's opposing all those limits on his choices and labels on
>his
> soul.

LOL!!! Funny!

Labels on his soul!! Cute!

~~~

I don't think she meant it to be cute.

Tuck


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