Wendy Carr

Is there a difference between a Radical Unschooler and just an Unschooler?
Wendy

Wendy Carr
When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a
thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the beginning
of fairies. - Barrie
Mom to Austyn(8) and Caitlin(4 months)

Proud To Home-school!

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed
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Mary

From: "Wendy Carr" <WendyWCarr@...>

<< Is there a difference between a Radical Unschooler and just an
Unschooler?>>

I think it really depends on the person. What might be radical to some,
wouldn't seem so to others. In my local area, I would say I'm radical. Here
on the list, I can't say the same thing because so many others seem to
parent and unschool as we do.




Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com

J. Stauffer

>>>> Is there a difference between a Radical Unschooler and just an
Unschooler?<<<<

Well.....like most things it depends. The problem is that some people call
themselves "unschoolers" but they force the kids to do math, or they
"unschool" after the kids get out of ps in the afternoons, or they require a
certain amount of reading each day. These are people that hard core
unschoolers would refer to as "eclectic".

Radical unschoolers use that title as a way of saying "No really, we are
committed 100% to unschooling. My kids are REALLY in charge of their lives,
etc.."

Julie S. --radical unschooler

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wendy Carr" <WendyWCarr@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 8:42 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Radical vs. Regular?


> Wendy
>
> Wendy Carr
> When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a
> thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the
beginning
> of fairies. - Barrie
> Mom to Austyn(8) and Caitlin(4 months)
>
> Proud To Home-school!
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed
> providers now. https://broadband.msn.com
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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>
>
>

[email protected]

<< Is there a difference between a Radical Unschooler and just an Unschooler?
>>

Have you heard Eddie Izzard's routine about "weirdo transvestites"? He says
he's an action transvestite, and an executive transvestite, not a "weirdo
transvestite."

Outside of discussions of homeschoolers, they're all homeschoolers.
To someone in South Africa, Americans are all Americans.

To someone in Mexico or Canada, they probably know and care about the
differences between Texans and Californians, or New Englanders/Midwesterners/Pacific
NE folk. Within a state, people know which regions are likely to be how, or
will expect what behavior or level of clothing formality, or will have what
food, and so forth. In which town in your own state is there most likely to be
a mosque, or synagogue, or Buddhist center? Which is likely to have three
kinds of Pentecostal church? Where can you buy Moon Pies and pork rinds? Keifer
and sprouts?

And so within homeschooling some people have lots of shades of meaning for
the homeschoolers like themselves and fewer shades for those further away. I
don't personally care much about the difference between ABeka and Sonlight, and
I'm sure there are differences! Within those, I bet there are people who
choose their friends or avoid people based on how they use those, and I bet they
themselves have terminology for their slackers and too-stricts and just-rights.

In different discussions over the years I've seen different distinctions made
about "radical." Sometimes it involves whether there is any instruction.
Some people want to teach math facts and reading and other than that they're
unschooling. They're not radical unschoolers.

Sometimes it involves whether there's any separation of learning and other
life. Some want to give their kids uninterrupted learning opportunities and
time to pursue their interests during "school hours" so that on a school day
they're free to do what they want as long as it seems somewhat justifiably
schoolish. And they might accept that Lego or sandbox play is schoolish because
there are math and engineering and physics and nature elements, and they want to
document some of that. But they might not want the kids to just sit and look
out the window, or to read magazines about movie stars, or to play a video game
during that same time.

If you read that and thought, "Yeah, but looking out the window, playing a
video game or reading ANY magazine is still learning," then you're probably a
radical unschooler.

Then there is another division that considers whether unschooling has so
transformed the parents or the family that they have blurred the lines between
learning and any other part of life, and I think that's the line which causes
conflict on this list at at the unschooling.com forum sometimes. It has to do
with lifestyle other than project/learning/input. What about bedtimes and food
and chores and rules of interaction with the world?

Each family has a point which is too far for them. For me "too far" is when
a parent comes here and says they don't think it's their job to suggest
anything for their kids to do, ever. They don't think it's their job to comment on
their children's interests. They don't think it's unschooling if a parent
ever directs anything or imposes his or her own interests on the child in any
way. See, I think that's justifying some kind of detached neglect, and I think
it's stupid. Yet there have been very VERY few of those over the years (and
I think they were bullshitting anyway, or experimenting with a posture they
didn't actually hold and would say something different in a week or two).

So there's my personal edge-of-the-world. But I don't call them more radical
than I am. I think they're just doofi or they're just saying what they think
will stir trouble. (Do you imagine anyone would actually do that? I didn't
think so years ago, but now I'm sure they do because I've heard their twisted
confessions of having disrupted lists and wasted people's time just for the
thrill of being irritants.)

So back to the real world as we know it and I would like to try to maintain
it. I think if people divide their lives into academic and non-academic,
they're not radical unschoolers. I think unschooling in the context of a
traditional set of rules and parental requirements and expectations will work better
than structured school-at-home, but I don't think it will work as well for the
developing souls and minds of the children involved. And those who are not
radical unschoolers would look at that and say "What do their souls have to do
with unschooling?"

It has to do with philosophy and priority. I think the way I discuss whether
one of my teens can go to a movie or not under the circumstances of the
moment is as true and deep a life-building experience as when he asks me what
squares and square roots are about.

Yesterday we had in various combinations and not all at once from seven to
seventeen kids here. It was a madhouse. Seven was my low count because there
are still seven here at the moment. At one point two were gone and were coming
back, one was half-expected (and did show up) and Marty wanted to go to the
dollar movies to see "School of Rock" with a subset of the day's count. Holly
didn't want to go; her guest from England did. Kirby half wanted to go; the
girls coming back wanted to see him particularly. So the discussion with Marty
involved me helping him review the schedule, the logistics of which and how
many cars, did he have cash, could he ask Kirby to stay, could we offer another
trip to that theater the next day for those who'd missed it today, etc. I
could have said "yes" or "no" without detail, but it was important to me for
it to be important to Marty to learn how to make those decisions. Lots of
factors.

That's part of my personal style of radical unschooling.

Sandra

Lillian Haas

> Is there a difference between a Radical Unschooler and just an Unschooler?
>

We've always considered ourselves fairly far out on the radical fringe of
unschooling, but I've been taken to task (by someone on this list) for
reminding my son to do his Latin. My point was (and still is) that he chose
to work his way through this book with an online group, and it's important
to him to turn in his assignments on time, and if he doesn't work on the
assignments throughout the week he tends to have to spend hours the day
they're due. He doesn't like that, and we don't like having to go over them
with him late at night before he turns them in. Nonetheless, he's 11, and
for a long time he wasn't going to choose to do Latin when there were
computer games to be played. So we reminded him. We didn't say, "Turn off
that stupid game and do your Latin this instant!" We said, sometimes several
times a day, "Don't forget your Latin."

The "radical unschooler" who saw my post about this on another list said I
should examine what we were doing to see if there was a better way. She
implied, quite strongly, that we weren't unschooling enough, that something
about the Latin was our problem. But I don't think helping a child remember
something he wants to do excludes us from the radical unschooling club.

By the way, now that he's almost 12, we almost never have to remind him
about the Latin anymore. He finally matured to the point that he can
remember on his own. And everyone's happy.

Lillian

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/22/03 8:59:43 AM, lhaas@... writes:

<< But I don't think helping a child remember

something he wants to do excludes us from the radical unschooling club. >>

If you see it as a club and are concerned about being excluded. . .

<<I've been taken to task (by someone on this list) for

reminding my son to do his Latin. >>

I remind my kids to return their phone calls. Sometimes they have to pause a
game to do that.

I sometimes remind Kirby to set his alarm if he's going somewhere the next
day. (He rarely needs the reminder anymore.) I remind him to wash his gi or at
least throw it toward the washing machine. (Ditto.)

<<My point was (and still is) that he chose

to work his way through this book with an online group, and it's important

to him to turn in his assignments on time, and if he doesn't work on the

assignments throughout the week he tends to have to spend hours the day

they're due. He doesn't like that. . . >>

"He tends to have to" means he has no choice, though. He DOES have a choice,
doesn't he?

I reminded my kids to get their Halloween costumes together early.
When they're going to a medieval event, I ask them to get all their costume
parts together a few days before so we know if they need anything repaired,
made or bought.

But they could say "I'd rather just not go."

I don't know who criticized it before, and it could have been me (or one of
dozens of others who are on more than one list), but maybe it's because it was
Latin, which is even more than times tables or reading, the epitome of
schoolishness. Maybe it was because of the use of "have to" (whether he has to
study, or you have to remind him).

<<The "radical unschooler" who saw my post s that unreasonable? If this is
so: "We said, sometimes several

times a day, 'Don't forget your Latin'" then maybe reexamination was a really
good bit of advice.

Sandra

Lillian Haas

> "He tends to have to" means he has no choice, though. He DOES have a
choice,
> doesn't he?

Of course he has a choice. We didn't assign him to do Latin -- my huband and
I worked out way through the same book, and we loved it, so he wanted to try
it, and he loves it. We're word people around here, and Latin is just one
long word puzzle.

> I reminded my kids to get their Halloween costumes together early.
> When they're going to a medieval event, I ask them to get all their
costume
> parts together a few days before so we know if they need anything
repaired,
> made or bought.
>
> But they could say "I'd rather just not go."

He started with us when he was nine, and after a few chapters he gave it up
because he wasn't enjoying it. He picked it up again about a year later with
a different online group, and he's been doing it ever since. No pressure
from us either time.

> I don't know who criticized it before, and it could have been me (or one
of
> dozens of others who are on more than one list), but maybe it's because it
was
> Latin, which is even more than times tables or reading, the epitome of
> schoolishness.

It may be the epitome of schoolishness for people who don't find it
interesting, but for us it's the epitome of unschooling. If he had to keep
up with whatever it is that sixth-graders are supposed to be learning, he
certainly wouldn't have time for college-level Latin. It's just like
unschoolers who teach themselves Klingon or dwarven runes (both of which
he's done at various times). We all love language here, like other families
love music or art or nature.

> Maybe it was because of the use of "have to" (whether he has to
> study, or you have to remind him).>
<<The "radical unschooler" who saw my post s that unreasonable? If this is
> so: "We said, sometimes several times a day, 'Don't forget your Latin'"
then maybe reexamination was a really
> good bit of advice.

On days when I need to do something, I ask my husband and boys to remind me
repeatedly until I actually do it. It's quite easy to get distracted and let
things slip, even things that are important to me. There's nothing to
reexamine about the Latin, and that was my point before: If he doesn't want
to do it, he doesn't have to. But since he wants to do it, if he doesn't
want to spend four hours on it in one day, he has to spread that out over
several days. And if he gets so into Deus Ex or Freedom Force that he
forgets, we have to remind him. There are certain things in life that we all
"have" to do, for whatever reason.

Lillian

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/22/2003 9:49:41 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
In which town in your own state is there most likely to be
a mosque, or synagogue, or Buddhist center? Which is likely to have three
kinds of Pentecostal church?

~~~

A. None. B. All. ;)

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/22/2003 10:48:16 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
"He tends to have to" means he has no choice, though. He DOES have a choice,
doesn't he?

~~~

I took "he tends to have to" to mean that if he lets it go it costs hours to
catch up so he can participate in the next installment. A consequence of not
doing a little at a time.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lillian Haas

> I took "he tends to have to" to mean that if he lets it go it costs hours
to
> catch up so he can participate in the next installment. A consequence of
not > doing a little at a time.

Exactly. Thank you for saying that more clearly than I did.

Lillian

Kelli Traaseth

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lillian Haas" <lhaas@...>

**And if he gets so into Deus Ex or Freedom Force that he
> forgets, we have to remind him.**

Nah,,

I think if a parent finds that they are reminding a child to do something
too much, it might not be that important to the child. Its become the
parent's agenda and not the child's. There's such a fine line, and I have
crossed it before. ( I'm not saying its not important to him.) But, if he
is into the Deus Ex or Freedom Force, that might be a priority to him at
that time. I

I think this is similar to practicing an instrument, I've seen it similar,
anyway. I have friends who keep reminding their kids about practicing.
It turns into a stressful thing. I think the parents have to let it go.
Yes, I might mention the instrument, but its going to be up to them to get
it done. If they choose to do something else, well,, that was more
important to them then. They know they won't have a certain piece down or
what ever. They might even go to a lesson unprepared, its happened. But
its up to them.


**On days when I need to do something, I ask my husband and boys to remind
me
repeatedly until I actually do it. It's quite easy to get distracted and let
things slip, even things that are important to me.**


That would drive me crazy! <g> When there are things to be done, I don't
want people reminding me to do it. You and I are obviously different. When
I was growing up my mother would always be at me about things. I think
that's why now if someone reminds me about something, it really hits me
wrong. She would never allow me to take on the responsibility as my own.

On this same vein, I think my children will really be able to differentiate
or prioritize what is important to them. I already see them doing this.
They've taken the responsiblity onto themselves. They know what's true to
them and there won't be the kind-of distractions going on with them like
there is to me. They don't have different thoughts going on in their heads
like: "Oh, maybe I should be doing this instead of that". They'll know. I
am just learning these things now. :)

In leading this unschooling life they are able to develop that sense. When
something is important, they do it, if it isn't they don't, and they don't
sit and worry about what isn't happening--because it isn't important.

Kelli~

Lillian Haas

> In leading this unschooling life they are able to develop that sense.
When
> something is important, they do it, if it isn't they don't, and they
don't
> sit and worry about what isn't happening--because it isn't important.

But there are two kinds of important: important to me right now, and
important to me in a larger sense. At any given time I'd most like to be
curled up in an armchair reading a book, but I want to learn Latin, I want
to improve my knitting and make lots of cool things, I want to learn to play
the harp (someday!), and I have to do various things that make life overall
more enjoyable. I could spend all day reading -- no one would stop me -- but
I have a larger vision of what I want my life to be.

It's the same with Alex. He wants to do the Latin, but it's not foremost in
his mind most of the time. When a week goes by when I forget to remind him,
he stays up late on Monday night to get it done. It's not because I've told
him it has to be done -- it's because he wants to keep up with the group.
That makes it important to him, even if at a particular moment it's not what
he chooses to do. It takes a lot more focused brainpower than playing
computer games, so for the same reason I spend way too much time playing
spider solitaire, he frequently plays games rather than doing anything else.
And that's his choice, but it helps him when I remind him that there are
other things in the world.

Lillian

L. Wayne

~~He wants to do the Latin, but it's not foremost in
his mind most of the time. When a week goes by when I forget to remind him,
he stays up late on Monday night to get it done.~~

Ok, so that's when it's important to him. He does it when he feels the need to get it done. Until that time other things are important.

~~It's not because I've told
him it has to be done -- it's because he wants to keep up with the group.~~

Yes, and sometimes he is keeping up with the group by staying up late on Monday night. It's his choice. Whether you remind him or not, he's keeping up with the group because he chooses to.

~~It takes a lot more focused brainpower than playing
computer games~~

Maybe for him it does, maybe for someone else it would take very little effort. Some people are naturally inclined to learn something, some people have to work their butts off. If he chooses to work his butt off, cool! If he chooses to let it go, cool! Neither is better when doing something like learning Latin.

It still 'sounds' like it's more important to you than to your son.

I'm also the type of person that hates to be reminded of something I 'should' do. I'll do it when I'm ready to do it, until then I'll do something else. It's my time, my life, and my choice. If it doesn't get done, oh well, I'm the one that will deal with the consequences, if any. If I have to be repeatedly reminded to do something, it must not have been as important to me as someone else thinks it should be.

Lyle



***Always remember, Lead By Example***

--
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Kelli Traaseth

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lillian Haas" <lhaas@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Radical vs. Regular?



** But there are two kinds of important: important to me right now, and
important to me in a larger sense. At any given time I'd most like to be
curled up in an armchair reading a book, but I want to learn Latin, I want
to improve my knitting and make lots of cool things, I want to learn to
play
the harp (someday!), and I have to do various things that make life overall
more enjoyable. I could spend all day reading -- no one would stop me --
but
I have a larger vision of what I want my life to be.**


Yes, but don't you want it to be you who decides when to get those things
done? I know I take pride in getting things done on my own. Not when
someone else says its time or which is important to get done. Its part of
allowing a person to learn how to be responsible. And allowing them to
figure out what is important to them.


It's the same with Alex. He wants to do the Latin, but it's not foremost in
his mind most of the time. When a week goes by when I forget to remind him,
he stays up late on Monday night to get it done.

And he got it done.

**It's not because I've told
> him it has to be done -- it's because he wants to keep up with the group.
> That makes it important to him, even if at a particular moment it's not
what
> he chooses to do. **

But that is when he is choosing to do it. If he's procrastinating about it
alot I would question whether or not its something he really enjoys. Maybe
there's a different way to go about learning Latin?? I don't know, just a
thought.

**It takes a lot more focused brainpower than playing
computer games**

Huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

OK, I'm not going to get myself all worked up over this one,,, but that
is so not true. There are many types of intelligences out
there........................It takes a huge amount of focused brainpower to
play computer games. Yes, there are different levels of difficulty in
computer games. But is learning Latin more valuable than working on a
computer/video game?


** so for the same reason I spend way too much time playing
spider solitaire**

Maybe you like solving problems, thinking in that way.


**And that's his choice, but it helps him when I remind him that there are
other things in the world.**

But isn't there a point where you want him to figure that out on his own?
I bet he already knows. :)

Kelli~

Kelli Traaseth

Sorry, I forgot to differentiate between people here:

**It's the same with Alex. He wants to do the Latin, but it's not foremost
in
> his mind most of the time. When a week goes by when I forget to remind
him,
> he stays up late on Monday night to get it done.**


And I said:

And he got it done.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelli Traaseth" <tktraas@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Radical vs. Regular?


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lillian Haas" <lhaas@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 12:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Radical vs. Regular?
>
>
>
> ** But there are two kinds of important: important to me right now, and
> important to me in a larger sense. At any given time I'd most like to be
> curled up in an armchair reading a book, but I want to learn Latin, I
want
> to improve my knitting and make lots of cool things, I want to learn to
> play
> the harp (someday!), and I have to do various things that make life
overall
> more enjoyable. I could spend all day reading -- no one would stop me --
> but
> I have a larger vision of what I want my life to be.**
>
>
> Yes, but don't you want it to be you who decides when to get those things
> done? I know I take pride in getting things done on my own. Not when
> someone else says its time or which is important to get done. Its part of
> allowing a person to learn how to be responsible. And allowing them to
> figure out what is important to them.
>
>
> It's the same with Alex. He wants to do the Latin, but it's not foremost
in
> his mind most of the time. When a week goes by when I forget to remind
him,
> he stays up late on Monday night to get it done.
>
> And he got it done.
>
> **It's not because I've told
> > him it has to be done -- it's because he wants to keep up with the
group.
> > That makes it important to him, even if at a particular moment it's not
> what
> > he chooses to do. **
>
> But that is when he is choosing to do it. If he's procrastinating about
it
> alot I would question whether or not its something he really enjoys.
Maybe
> there's a different way to go about learning Latin?? I don't know, just
a
> thought.
>
> **It takes a lot more focused brainpower than playing
> computer games**
>
> Huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
>
> OK, I'm not going to get myself all worked up over this one,,, but that
> is so not true. There are many types of intelligences out
> there........................It takes a huge amount of focused brainpower
to
> play computer games. Yes, there are different levels of difficulty in
> computer games. But is learning Latin more valuable than working on a
> computer/video game?
>
>
> ** so for the same reason I spend way too much time playing
> spider solitaire**
>
> Maybe you like solving problems, thinking in that way.
>
>
> **And that's his choice, but it helps him when I remind him that there
are
> other things in the world.**
>
> But isn't there a point where you want him to figure that out on his own?
> I bet he already knows. :)
>
> Kelli~
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Holly Furgason

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> I remind my kids to return their phone calls. Sometimes they have
to pause a
> game to do that.
>
> I sometimes remind Kirby to set his alarm if he's going somewhere
the next
> day. (He rarely needs the reminder anymore.) I remind him to wash
his gi or at
> least throw it toward the washing machine. (Ditto.)

Yes, and my kids give me the same courtesy when they know I'm busy or
think I might forget things like this for some reason.

Holly

Lillian Haas

> ~~He wants to do the Latin, but it's not foremost in
> his mind most of the time. When a week goes by when I forget to remind
him,
> he stays up late on Monday night to get it done.~~
>
> Ok, so that's when it's important to him. He does it when he feels the
need to get it done. Until that time other things are important.

Yes, but he hates staying up late to get it done. His nights are reserved
for the computer.


> ~~It's not because I've told
> him it has to be done -- it's because he wants to keep up with the
group.~~
>
> Yes, and sometimes he is keeping up with the group by staying up late on
Monday night. It's his choice. Whether you remind him or not, he's keeping
up with the group because he chooses to.

It's his choice because at that point it's his only option. Just blowing it
off is not something he is willing to do.

>
> ~~It takes a lot more focused brainpower than playing
> computer games~~
>
> Maybe for him it does, maybe for someone else it would take very little
effort. Some people are naturally inclined to learn something, some people
have to work their butts off. If he chooses to work his butt off, cool! If
he chooses to let it go, cool! Neither is better when doing something like
learning Latin.

I never said it was better than the games. I said it takes more concentrated
work. Working through the complexities of Cicero's writing is harder than
shooting things.

>
> It still 'sounds' like it's more important to you than to your son.

It has nothing to do with me.

> I'm also the type of person that hates to be reminded of something I
'should' > do. I'll do it when I'm ready to do it, until then I'll do
something else. It's my time, my life, and my choice. If it doesn't get
done, oh well, I'm the one that will deal with the consequences, if any. If
I have to be repeatedly reminded to do something, it must not have been as
important to me as someone else thinks it should be.

OK, that's you. I promise not to remind you of anything. But why is it so
hard for you (and others) to accept that people are different. Some people
(me, for instance, and my son) don't mind a friendly reminder -- and, in
fact, need them occasionally.


>
> Lyle
>
>
>
> ***Always remember, Lead By Example***
>
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Lillian Haas

Sorry, that was sent before I was through.

What I meant to go on to say is that "important" means different things in
different contexts, and implying that I'm pressuring my son to do Latin
because I think it's important is missing the point. Yes, the consequences
are his to deal with, and he has now reached the point where he doesn't need
reminders anymore. But letting him stay up till midnight every single Monday
back when he needed those reminders wouldn't have been unschooling -- it
would have been punishing him for being an 11-year-old.

Lillian

Tia Leschke

>
>
>**It's not because I've told
> > him it has to be done -- it's because he wants to keep up with the group.
> > That makes it important to him, even if at a particular moment it's not
>what
> > he chooses to do. **
>
>But that is when he is choosing to do it. If he's procrastinating about it
>alot I would question whether or not its something he really enjoys. Maybe
>there's a different way to go about learning Latin?? I don't know, just a
>thought.

Or maybe just question whether he wants the reminders. Lillian didn't say,
but maybe it was his request to get reminded. I know I appreciate reminders
for *things that are important to me*.
If he hasn't asked for the reminders, maybe ask if he wants them. Maybe
he's just going to be a procrastinator and will have to learn to live with
the results of that.
I don't think that the fact that he needs reminders *necessarily* means
that he doesn't really want to do the Latin, although it certainly could.
Tia

Lillian Haas

> ** But there are two kinds of important: important to me right now, and
> important to me in a larger sense. At any given time I'd most like to be
> curled up in an armchair reading a book, but I want to learn Latin, I
want
> to improve my knitting and make lots of cool things, I want to learn to
> play
> the harp (someday!), and I have to do various things that make life
overall
> more enjoyable. I could spend all day reading -- no one would stop me --
> but
> I have a larger vision of what I want my life to be.**
>
>
> Yes, but don't you want it to be you who decides when to get those things
> done? I know I take pride in getting things done on my own. Not when
> someone else says its time or which is important to get done. Its part of
> allowing a person to learn how to be responsible. And allowing them to
> figure out what is important to them.

Yes, and he does decide when to do the things that are important to him. I
don't tell him when to do them, I just remind him that they exist. I'm like
a human to-do list, because he doesn't make a written one. He can ignore me
just like we all ignore to-do lists, if that's what he wants.


> It's the same with Alex. He wants to do the Latin, but it's not foremost
in
> his mind most of the time. When a week goes by when I forget to remind
him,
> he stays up late on Monday night to get it done.
>
> And he got it done.

Yes, but he's not happy about when.

>
> **It's not because I've told
> > him it has to be done -- it's because he wants to keep up with the
group.
> > That makes it important to him, even if at a particular moment it's not
> what
> > he chooses to do. **
>
> But that is when he is choosing to do it. If he's procrastinating about
it
> alot I would question whether or not its something he really enjoys.
Maybe
> there's a different way to go about learning Latin?? I don't know, just
a
> thought.

Of course he enjoys it. But it's hard work, and most people tend to put off
hard work. He loves knowing Latin, but he doesn't always love untangling
convoluted sentences. It's like practicing an instrument.

>
> **It takes a lot more focused brainpower than playing
> computer games**
>
> Huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
>
> OK, I'm not going to get myself all worked up over this one,,, but that
> is so not true. There are many types of intelligences out
> there........................It takes a huge amount of focused brainpower
to
> play computer games. Yes, there are different levels of difficulty in
> computer games. But is learning Latin more valuable than working on a
> computer/video game?

I think you're being a little oversensitive here. I never made any value
judgments about Latin vs. computer games, and yes, of course there are many
types of intelligences. But I know from experience that it's a whole lot
harder to do Latin than to do almost anything else we do, and my natural
tendency is to put it off. He is the same. That does not mean it's not
important to me, and it doesn't mean it's not important to him.

>
> ** so for the same reason I spend way too much time playing
> spider solitaire**
>
> Maybe you like solving problems, thinking in that way.

No, I play it because it's mindless, and sometimes that's what I need. And
it's always easier than Latin.

> **And that's his choice, but it helps him when I remind him that there
are
> other things in the world.**
>
> But isn't there a point where you want him to figure that out on his own?
> I bet he already knows. :)

Of course he knows, but he's still young enough that he doesn't think about
it all the time. He has now figured it out about Latin, and he does it most
days. He still doesn't practice his flute, though!

Lillian

Lillian Haas

> Yes, and my kids give me the same courtesy when they know I'm busy or
> think I might forget things like this for some reason.
>

Thank you. I knew I couldn't be the only person on this list who doesn't
think I'm destroying his personality with a few reminders.

Lillian

Lillian Haas

I asked him. He wants the reminders, and they don't bother him at all. And
no, he's not just saying what he thinks I want to hear.

Lillian

> Or maybe just question whether he wants the reminders. Lillian didn't say,
> but maybe it was his request to get reminded. I know I appreciate
reminders
> for *things that are important to me*.
> If he hasn't asked for the reminders, maybe ask if he wants them. Maybe
> he's just going to be a procrastinator and will have to learn to live with
> the results of that.
> I don't think that the fact that he needs reminders *necessarily* means
> that he doesn't really want to do the Latin, although it certainly could.

Holly Furgason

Perhaps it's not learning Latin that is the problem but rather the
medium he's using to do it. When I hear unschoolers talking about
this subject it always has to do with some formal learning
situation. There are lots of other ways to learn Latin than through
a schoolish, sequential, college level, on-line Latin class.

Being a word based person myself, I have lots of Latin materials
around the house including things for younger kids that my kids use
whenever the mood strikes. These aren't watered down at all but just
more kid friendly. One is Latin Is Fun by Amsco Publishing and the
other is an out of print book called Latin For The Grades published
around the turn of the century. It's written for second graders who
don't even have a grasp of grammar yet but anyone who went through it
would put a second year high school Latin student to shame. There's
also Transparent Language which I like a lot.

We have stories and songs and games in Latin (and about six other
languages). We watch movies and find stuff on the net. Most of my
kids foreign langauges have been learned through Total Physical
Response.

I studied Latin for three years, loved every minute of it but,
believe me, there is a better way. And if you just let him be he'll
be able to find it.

Holly

Lillian Haas

> I studied Latin for three years, loved every minute of it but,
> believe me, there is a better way. And if you just let him be he'll
> be able to find it.

But he likes it. He likes to learn this way. He's very sequential and verbal
and logical. He doesn't want a better way at this particular time. We have
Minimus and Rosetta Stone, and he doesn't like them at all. He likes
challenging his mind in this way -- really. This is the first textbook he's
ever used, and he likes it.

Lillian

pam sorooshian

On Dec 22, 2003, at 10:18 AM, Lillian Haas wrote:

> It's the same with Alex. He wants to do the Latin, but it's not
> foremost in
> his mind most of the time. When a week goes by when I forget to remind
> him,
> he stays up late on Monday night to get it done. It's not because I've
> told
> him it has to be done -- it's because he wants to keep up with the
> group.

Lillian, I get what you mean about procrastination, sounds like you
have a strong tendency to be a procrastinator, don't like that tendency
in yourself, and so you like someone else to be there to give you a
push to get around to doing things you want to "have done" but don't
ever just feel like doing at that particular moment. You're certainly
aware that you do things sometimes even though you'd rather do other
things "at the moment."

I'm a procrastinator. It is partly because I always have been able to
do what you say your son will do - procrastinate and then successfully
"catch up" in a last-minute intensive effort. It is the nature of how I
work. It is also sometimes because I do too many things and I do simply
"forget" about some of them until they become "fires" that have to be
put out.

Some occasional "reminding" is just kindness between people who care
about each other, of course.

However, parents who really want their kids to continue with their
music practice or latin group or whatever - will often claim to just be
"reminding" and say their kids have a choice, when, in fact, the kids
feel subtly pressured by the parents regular reminders to keep at
something that the kid would otherwise have dropped. This is common.
Your situation may or may not be like this, but we can't tell from what
you write that it isn't. So, like anything else posted to this list,
get ready for it to be critiqued and examined and looked at from a
number of points of view.

As I said, I very much understand procrastination issues <G>. I don't
think I'd appreciate someone else constantly reminding me to do the
things they think I really want to do instead of what I am doing at the
moment, though. I'm trying to think of how my parents could have helped
me be less of a procrastinator....I see it in my kids and I still do
it, myself, so it isn't something I've resolved, entirely.

I don't do "nagging" - it drives me nuts (because as a procrastinator
myself I hate it when people start "reminding" me - "Honey, didn't you
want to go grocery shopping? Maybe this would be a good time for you to
do that?") I don't do that to my family. But last night Rosie said,
"Oh, I need to remember to finish the blankets for Aunt Julie and Aunt
Kathleen. Remind me tomorrow morning, okay?" So - right now since I
just remembered <G>, I'm calling out to her, "Hey, Rosie, don't forget
about the blankets." She says, "Oh, yeah, thanks." And she's
continuing to play her computer game. Maybe she'll remember the
blankets today or tomorrow or maybe she'll be staying up late
frantically finishing them (Christmas gifts).

So, Lillian, instead of examining whether or not you're still in the
unschooling club if you remind your son to do something (because who
the heck cares - truth is, there is no club <G>), I'm turning this into
a question of how do you handle it when you see your child
procrastinating doing something they want to do and you know it will
end up that they'll have to do it under a time crunch and when tired,
etc. Or that it may not get done. Or that it'll get done but not in a
way that the kid will be happy with.

If some activity regularly requires parents to remind kids to do it I
bet most unschoolers here will say: "Let him procrastinate and learn
from it."

I think that is harder for those of us who still feel kind of crummy
about ourselves because of our own tendency to procrastinate, even
after years and years of experiencing the natural consequences. We
parents tend to be pretty reactive when see our own weaknesses or
failings showing up in our children.

My kids do procrastinate like I do. It has helped me to watch them and
realize that they still manage to accomplish a LOT and that often the
things they procrastinate on are things they end up dropping later as
lower priority than other things they're doing. My kids and I suffer
from simply thinking we want to do a LOT more than what we can
realistically manage so procrastinating can sometimes be our way of
determining which things we really do work on. Sometimes it is because
we're trying to do too much and are overwhelmed and kind of paralyzed.
Sometimes it is because we decide to do things because we think we
"should" rather than because we really "want" to do it.

So - looking back at what Lillian wrote --

<<On days when I need to do something, I ask my husband and boys to
remind me
repeatedly until I actually do it. It's quite easy to get distracted
and let
things slip, even things that are important to me. >>

Asking others to remind you occasionally is one thing - saying you ask
them to remind you "repeatedly" seems like you're asking them to take
responsibility for you, instead of you finding a way to deal with your
own distractibility. I also can't help but question how important
something can really be to you if you still "let it slip" after
repeated reminders.


<<There's nothing to reexamine about the Latin, and that was my point
before: If he doesn't want
to do it, he doesn't have to. But since he wants to do it, if he doesn't
want to spend four hours on it in one day, he has to spread that out
over
several days. >>

If that is his goal, a brief reminder, "Honey, don't forget you wanted
to do your Latin today and that you won't have time this afternoon
because we're going to a movie," ought to be enough to give him the
heads up that he might want to think about his time management for the
day.

Even though my kids tend to be procrastinators like I am, my older kids
who take college courses manage to get all their work done and done
well. Sometimes they do it last minute and sometimes they plan ahead
and do things early. I don't remind them or even know what they have
to do unless one of them says to me, "Mom, remind me I need to work on
my project for my class tomorrow."

What I didn't hear, Lillian, from your descriptions, was any mention of
your son initiating or asking for the reminders. So that leaves the
feeling this is mom wanting her kid to do things the "right" way - not
leave it to the last minute.

>>And if he gets so into Deus Ex or Freedom Force that he
forgets, we have to remind him. <<

There is that "we have to" phrase --- you mean you have to remind him
or else he'll have to do it all at once at the last minute. But you
don't "have to" remind him. You could also help figure out all kinds of
other ways to help him consider not putting it off. I use a computer
calendar that allows me to set "alarms" - either emails that I can set
to arrive before an "event" or little popups that will remind me about
"events." And I put in as "events" anything that I think I might need
to be reminded about. This works well for me because it is when I'm
online that I'm most likely to be procrastinating <G>. So if HE sees
procrastinating as a problem for himself, he might like to brainstorm
with you and come up with some ways he can be responsible for his own
time.

<<There are certain things in life that we all "have" to do, for
whatever reason.>>

This kind of statement is what gives your email a "tone" that doesn't
sound like unschooling. Yes, its true that we all have to do some
things - like eat and sleep and pay our taxes <G>. But what does that
have to do with a totally optional doing-it-because-he-loves-it Latin
class? He apparently DOES do it, right? Whether you remind him or not?
The question is whether he does it by spreading it out over several
days or does it all in one intense session at the last minute. He
doesn't "have to" do it either way. Neither is right or wrong. He
doesn't even "have to" do it at all.

I bet that when he procrastinates and then does it all at once to get
it done on time, he is unhappy and you worry that it won't continue to
be fun and he'll want to quit something that would continue to give him
pleasure if he'd do it differently. Makes sense to me. So it would make
sense to me to talk to him about that - give him that insight of yours
so he has that awareness. I think maybe that is what you are trying to
do by repeatedly reminding him and that is why it still feels, to you,
like he has a choice, but from outside it looks like you care more
about him doing it than he does.

-pam











> That makes it important to him, even if at a particular moment it's
> not what
> he chooses to do. It takes a lot more focused brainpower than playing
> computer games, so for the same reason I spend way too much time
> playing
> spider solitaire, he frequently plays games rather than doing anything
> else.
> And that's his choice, but it helps him when I remind him that there
> are
> other things in the world.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
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Holly Furgason

Some of the things I mentioned are sequential too because I thrive on
sequential. Even TPR is sequential. But there are so many more
components to what he's doing. If he really, really liked it-
*everything* about it- he wouldn't need reminders. He would just do
it and love every minute of it. There's something about it that
isn't compelling him. Until he's allowed to take control, he won't
find out what it is.

If they love it or need it, they'll do it. As I said before, I've
dealt with this a lot in consulting with homeschoolers for many
years. So many people as they learn about unschooling are in the
same situation. It really takes an act of faith* to let go- no
reminders, finding less formal ways to learn something, letting them
fail or waste their time- but those who do, without exception, find
that it really is simple.

Holly
*I often thought about having a state of faith for Houston
Unschoolers Group that said "I believe my child will learn what they
need to learn, when they need to learn it, how they need to learn it
and I will allow my child the freedom to succeed."

--- In [email protected], "Lillian Haas"
<lhaas@p...> wrote:
> > I studied Latin for three years, loved every minute of it but,
> > believe me, there is a better way. And if you just let him be
he'll
> > be able to find it.
>
> But he likes it. He likes to learn this way. He's very sequential
and verbal
> and logical. He doesn't want a better way at this particular time.
We have
> Minimus and Rosetta Stone, and he doesn't like them at all. He likes
> challenging his mind in this way -- really. This is the first
textbook he's
> ever used, and he likes it.
>
> Lillian

Wife2Vegman

> I don't think that the fact that he needs
> reminders *necessarily* means
> that he doesn't really want to do the Latin,
> although it certainly could.
>

Sometimes my kids forget to do things, even things
they really wanted to do. Part of being a kid is
living in the moment instead of thinking about what
needs to be done by the end of the week.

Perhaps the fact that as her son got older he took
over the responsibility for finishing the work on time
means it really was something he wanted to do and yet
he wasn't ready to be 100% responsible for it.

Isn't part of unschooling enabling our children to do
the things they want to do, whether it is driving them
to karate class or paying for the lessons or
reading books aloud to them?

Maybe a gentle reminder during the week to do the work
for his online class was what he needed to succeed at
what he really wanted to do, instead of leaving him to
be frustrated because he had hours of work to do in
one evening and perhaps thinking he couldn't do this
class afterall.

Leaving him to be frustrated and feel like a failure
because he was overwhelmed would not help him, nor
would it teach him to be more responsible. It would
have just caused him to quit doing something he
enjoyed.

Then again, maybe not...if I am looking at this
skewed, please let me know.



=====
--Susan in Sterling, VA

"This child is a natural product. The slight variations in growth,
development and temperament enhance his or her individual character
and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects." -- from the unschoolingdiscussion email list

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Lillian Haas

> If they love it or need it, they'll do it. As I said before, I've
> dealt with this a lot in consulting with homeschoolers for many
> years. So many people as they learn about unschooling are in the
> same situation. It really takes an act of faith* to let go- no
> reminders, finding less formal ways to learn something, letting them
> fail or waste their time- but those who do, without exception, find
> that it really is simple.

What doesn't seem to be coming across is that I'm not invested in the Latin.
It's not mine. I don't think it's mine. I don't think I have to force him to
keep going. He quit once before, and he can quit again if he wants to. All I
do is remind him. He wants to finish the textbook so he can read Harry
Potter in Latin. It's his goal. It's his project. Ignoring him isn't
allowing him the freedom to succeed -- it's allowing him the freedom to
procrastinate and then stay up till midnight and be miserable.

I just can't believe that every single person on this list does exactly what
he or she wants at every single minute of the day and still works toward
greater goals. Don't you ever have to do something you don't particularly
want to do because it moves you along toward something you do want?

Lillian

> *I often thought about having a state of faith for Houston
> Unschoolers Group that said "I believe my child will learn what they
> need to learn, when they need to learn it, how they need to learn it
> and I will allow my child the freedom to succeed."

Lillian Haas

Yes, yes, yes!

Lillian


> Maybe a gentle reminder during the week to do the work
> for his online class was what he needed to succeed at
> what he really wanted to do, instead of leaving him to
> be frustrated because he had hours of work to do in
> one evening and perhaps thinking he couldn't do this
> class afterall.
>
> Leaving him to be frustrated and feel like a failure
> because he was overwhelmed would not help him, nor
> would it teach him to be more responsible. It would
> have just caused him to quit doing something he
> enjoyed.
>

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> I just can't believe that every single person on this list does exactly
what
> he or she wants at every single minute of the day and still works toward
> greater goals. Don't you ever have to do something you don't particularly
> want to do because it moves you along toward something you do want?

I love to sew. I hate to mend and hem. It is a wish of mine to have a
photograph of my children in matching pajamas in front of our Christmas tree
and/or their stockings every Christmas (photo to be taken on Christmas Eve).
I have two girls (ages 7 & 3). I found matching red plaid sleepwear (night
gown for my daughter that likes nightgowns, pajamas with pants for my
daughter that only likes pants). Well, the pants are way too long. The
smallest size that I could find were a size too big. I didn't realize that
they'd be quite this big. So, I either have to hem them, or go without the
photo because my daughter will not wear clothes that are too big or too
small (she'll just strip in order to be comfortable). So... today I am
hemming. I've procrastinated it because I hate hemming, but I'll do it
because I want that photo.

Another example: My 7 yo daughter, Zoe, wanted to wrap her Christmas
present for her sister in white paper that she could decorate (her goal and
idea, not mine). We have white paper, but was having a really hard time
finding a time when her sister was asleep or otherwise not going to see. A
couple of nights ago, she fell asleep and I immediately went and got Zoe and
said, "I know you are busy right now, but here is your chance. Teagan is
asleep." I helped get the supplies out for wrapping and coloring and Zoe
did it. I helped with the harder parts in order to make it go faster (we
were worried that Teagan would wake up and see what we were doing--she
didn't). I reminded, she had to stop the really fun thing that she was in
the middle of, but she wanted to wrap so she did it then (even though it
wasn't the ideal time for her). I wouldn't have been mad if she'd said that
she didn't want to do it then, but I would have reminded her that she might
not get another chance (we'd been waiting for a chance for weeks).

So, yes, of course, we do things that we don't really want to do in order to
get our long term goals met. I do the laundry and dishes practically every
day so that my long term goal of not having to do 10 loads of laundry and/or
multiple loads of dishes in one day is met. :) It would be nice to do zero
loads a day, but I would rather eat and wear clothes.

-Lisa in AZ, a radical unschooler