Sorry, I take it back Re: unschooling math
[email protected]
Okay, I take it back. It's something that really went around, and apparently
there was a song about it. A song might make people remember something. A
cartoon poster might help. But talking about an alligator eating wouldn't
help.
Al the Alligator (Greater than/Less than) Math Lesson Plan, ...
Al the Alligator (Greater than/Less than). Visit Other Click to Vote For Us!
...
www.lessonplanspage.com/MathGTLT-AlTheAlligator12.htm - 18k - Cached -
Similar pages
Al the Alligator (Greater than/Less than)
... Title - Al the Alligator (Greater than/Less than) By - Kelly Subject -
Math Grade
Level - 1st-2nd Materials: number cards (0-10) (maybe 0-20 for 2nd grade or
...
www.lessonplanspage.com/printables/ PMathGTLT-AlTheAlligator12.htm - 4k -
Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.lessonplanspage.com ]
[PDF] Alligator Page
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting
our text version of this document.
Song = Number Eating Alligator CD = Math, Math, Math Prop = Greater Than Less
Than
Alligator (Remember, the alligator’s mouth always eats the biggest number! ...
www.intelli-tunes.com/activities/ pdf/Alligator-Page.pdf - Similar pages
Maybe this is the sort of thing that should never be taught to first and
second graders. If you wait until they're older they don't need to invest any
time in a song or cartoon about an alligator eating a big number. They could
be doing fun stuff or REAL alligator-behavior-learning, or mathematical
concepts in English instead of in numerical symbols.
I still think it's a profoundly bad idea as an explanation, and that any
concept that makes the memory device more convoluted and complicated than the
situation at hand is horrible. "Righty tighty" is useful. If it were replaced
or augmented with "If you were facing north in the northern hemisphere and an
alligator were facing east and you wanted to tighten a screw on the crocodile.
. ." Another thing with screws is muscle memory and trial and error. One
way works, and the other way doesn't.
Sandra
there was a song about it. A song might make people remember something. A
cartoon poster might help. But talking about an alligator eating wouldn't
help.
Al the Alligator (Greater than/Less than) Math Lesson Plan, ...
Al the Alligator (Greater than/Less than). Visit Other Click to Vote For Us!
...
www.lessonplanspage.com/MathGTLT-AlTheAlligator12.htm - 18k - Cached -
Similar pages
Al the Alligator (Greater than/Less than)
... Title - Al the Alligator (Greater than/Less than) By - Kelly Subject -
Math Grade
Level - 1st-2nd Materials: number cards (0-10) (maybe 0-20 for 2nd grade or
...
www.lessonplanspage.com/printables/ PMathGTLT-AlTheAlligator12.htm - 4k -
Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.lessonplanspage.com ]
[PDF] Alligator Page
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting
our text version of this document.
Song = Number Eating Alligator CD = Math, Math, Math Prop = Greater Than Less
Than
Alligator (Remember, the alligator’s mouth always eats the biggest number! ...
www.intelli-tunes.com/activities/ pdf/Alligator-Page.pdf - Similar pages
Maybe this is the sort of thing that should never be taught to first and
second graders. If you wait until they're older they don't need to invest any
time in a song or cartoon about an alligator eating a big number. They could
be doing fun stuff or REAL alligator-behavior-learning, or mathematical
concepts in English instead of in numerical symbols.
I still think it's a profoundly bad idea as an explanation, and that any
concept that makes the memory device more convoluted and complicated than the
situation at hand is horrible. "Righty tighty" is useful. If it were replaced
or augmented with "If you were facing north in the northern hemisphere and an
alligator were facing east and you wanted to tighten a screw on the crocodile.
. ." Another thing with screws is muscle memory and trial and error. One
way works, and the other way doesn't.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 12/14/03 8:45 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
As lowercase b having a belly helps Ethan.
(If anyone does have kids mixing up b and d you can show them that if they
make circles with their forefingers and thumbs and hold up their fingers to
make b with the left hand and d with the right and then hold them together
that it looks like the word bed and the object bed. It's a lot more complex
to write out than to show someone! ;-)
But the point Sandra is trying to make is that complicated convoluted ways
aren't a good place to start when explaining something. Begin with simple
and clear. And if simple and clear doesn't work then maybe they aren't ready
to understand yet.
The alligator thing was meant for little kids who don't have the need for
greater than or less than. It was purely for memorization's sake. It was to
make a fact stick so the kids could spit it back for a test. It turned
something nonsensical and useless (to them since they didn't need it) into
something that resembled something they enjoyed (animals).
If we just wait until they need the information, then simple and clear will
very likely work.
on 12/14/03 9:23 AM, averyschmidt at patti.schmidt2@... wrote:
"help" is more confusing than the actual symbol. Why would alligators eat
only big numbers? What do alligators have to do with greater than or less
than.
Sometimes memory aids aren't straightforward but they're easier than what
someone is trying to memorize. Every Good Boy Deserves Favor, Roy G. Biv, --
there's one for the planets that I'm forgetting -- don't have anything to do
with music, colors (or planets if I could remember it) but they're catchy
and help someone remember something that doesn't have an obvious pattern or
obvious visual or other relationship to what it's representing.
The less than/greater than symbol *is* obvious: small number on the small
side, big number on the big side. b and d together do look like a bed.
Righty tighty, lefty loosy has the directions and their relationship to what
they do right in the rhyme. There's a direct relation to the help and what
the thing trying to be understood is.
Joyce
> I still think it's a profoundly bad idea as an explanation, and that anyEven complicated convoluted ideas might help one child understand something.
> concept that makes the memory device more convoluted and complicated than the
> situation at hand is horrible.
As lowercase b having a belly helps Ethan.
(If anyone does have kids mixing up b and d you can show them that if they
make circles with their forefingers and thumbs and hold up their fingers to
make b with the left hand and d with the right and then hold them together
that it looks like the word bed and the object bed. It's a lot more complex
to write out than to show someone! ;-)
But the point Sandra is trying to make is that complicated convoluted ways
aren't a good place to start when explaining something. Begin with simple
and clear. And if simple and clear doesn't work then maybe they aren't ready
to understand yet.
The alligator thing was meant for little kids who don't have the need for
greater than or less than. It was purely for memorization's sake. It was to
make a fact stick so the kids could spit it back for a test. It turned
something nonsensical and useless (to them since they didn't need it) into
something that resembled something they enjoyed (animals).
If we just wait until they need the information, then simple and clear will
very likely work.
on 12/14/03 9:23 AM, averyschmidt at patti.schmidt2@... wrote:
> I'm curious now whether you feel the same about that as you do aboutI'm sure Sandra will come an explain, but the way I see it is that the
> the alligator thing.
> Is it different because the letters "b" and "d" come up in the real
> world much more often than < and > or is it just more convoluted
> nonsense?
"help" is more confusing than the actual symbol. Why would alligators eat
only big numbers? What do alligators have to do with greater than or less
than.
Sometimes memory aids aren't straightforward but they're easier than what
someone is trying to memorize. Every Good Boy Deserves Favor, Roy G. Biv, --
there's one for the planets that I'm forgetting -- don't have anything to do
with music, colors (or planets if I could remember it) but they're catchy
and help someone remember something that doesn't have an obvious pattern or
obvious visual or other relationship to what it's representing.
The less than/greater than symbol *is* obvious: small number on the small
side, big number on the big side. b and d together do look like a bed.
Righty tighty, lefty loosy has the directions and their relationship to what
they do right in the rhyme. There's a direct relation to the help and what
the thing trying to be understood is.
Joyce
pam sorooshian
On Dec 14, 2003, at 7:18 AM, Fetteroll wrote:
doesn't a lower-case d also have a belly?
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Even complicated convoluted ideas might help one child understandExplain to me why his belly points one way or the other? I mean, why
> something.
> As lowercase b having a belly helps Ethan.
>
doesn't a lower-case d also have a belly?
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Wife2Vegman
--- pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
that is often mistaken for dyslexia in young children.
Everything in a child's world is 3D, until reading and
arithmetic enter in.
A chair is a chair is a chair, whether it is facing
left or right or turned upside down or on its side.
He understands the "chairness" of the object no matter
what its position, and changing the position doesn't
change what it is.
All objects are what they are.
A lowercase p, b, d, q are basically all the same to
the child because he is looking at it with the same
reasoning he explores the rest of his world.
The same for 2 and 5, for 6 and 9.
wifetovegman
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>> > As lowercase b having a belly helps Ethan.I loved John Holt's explanation of this "phenomenon"
> >
> Explain to me why his belly points one way or the
> other? I mean, why
> doesn't a lower-case d also have a belly?
>
> -pam
that is often mistaken for dyslexia in young children.
Everything in a child's world is 3D, until reading and
arithmetic enter in.
A chair is a chair is a chair, whether it is facing
left or right or turned upside down or on its side.
He understands the "chairness" of the object no matter
what its position, and changing the position doesn't
change what it is.
All objects are what they are.
A lowercase p, b, d, q are basically all the same to
the child because he is looking at it with the same
reasoning he explores the rest of his world.
The same for 2 and 5, for 6 and 9.
wifetovegman
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pam sorooshian
On Dec 14, 2003, at 12:41 PM, Wife2Vegman wrote:
forgotten about this and never related it to topology in which a donut
and a coffee cup are the same shape.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> A lowercase p, b, d, q are basically all the same toThis is kind of like topological thinking. Cool. Thanks. I'd totally
> the child because he is looking at it with the same
> reasoning he explores the rest of his world.
forgotten about this and never related it to topology in which a donut
and a coffee cup are the same shape.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Barbara Moreda
If I were explaining it this way ... I would the lower d as having a butt.
:) My oldest once asked ... is the T the one with two hats? when he was at
the computer keyboard. :)
Barbara
Barbara Moreda
A community for Women: Our Place http://pub83.ezboard.com/bmiamivalleymoms
If you plan for one year, plant rice. If you plan for 10 years, plant a
tree. If you plan for 100 years, educate a child. Chinese proverb
Mommy to RJ (12/91), Michael (11/95) and Maggie (2/98)
mailto:homeiscool@...
:) My oldest once asked ... is the T the one with two hats? when he was at
the computer keyboard. :)
Barbara
Barbara Moreda
A community for Women: Our Place http://pub83.ezboard.com/bmiamivalleymoms
If you plan for one year, plant rice. If you plan for 10 years, plant a
tree. If you plan for 100 years, educate a child. Chinese proverb
Mommy to RJ (12/91), Michael (11/95) and Maggie (2/98)
mailto:homeiscool@...
----- Original Message -----
From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Sorry, I take it back Re: unschooling
math
>
> On Dec 14, 2003, at 7:18 AM, Fetteroll wrote:
>
> > Even complicated convoluted ideas might help one child understand
> > something.
> > As lowercase b having a belly helps Ethan.
> >
> Explain to me why his belly points one way or the other? I mean, why
> doesn't a lower-case d also have a belly?
>
> -pam
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
Wife2Vegman
--- pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
shown side by side, from the baby's view point. Both
were drawn as a big circle with a smaller circle in
the middle. Without thinking too much about the
breastfeeding versus bottle feeding debate, I found
the cartoon quite funny!
wifetovegman
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>I saw a funny once where a bottle and a breast were
>
> This is kind of like topological thinking. Cool.
> Thanks. I'd totally
> forgotten about this and never related it to
> topology in which a donut
> and a coffee cup are the same shape.
>
> -pam
shown side by side, from the baby's view point. Both
were drawn as a big circle with a smaller circle in
the middle. Without thinking too much about the
breastfeeding versus bottle feeding debate, I found
the cartoon quite funny!
wifetovegman
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catherine aceto
Hmmm so I suppose it would work for any kid who has internalized that words "face" right (i.e. go left to right), but not gottn the difference between b and d yet.
-Cat
-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: Barbara Moreda
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Sorry, I take it back Re: unschooling math
If I were explaining it this way ... I would the lower d as having a butt.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 12/14/03 3:34 PM, pam sorooshian at pamsoroosh@... wrote:
I think Teresa said he made it up to help himself. So for some reason that
convoluted obscure little thing helped him.
It's probably not something that would help anyone else.
(All I can think of is that he knew that belly was spelled belly and not
delly so equated the belly on b with the word belly.)
What I meant when I said "Even complicated convoluted ideas might help one
child understand something" are the things kids come up with to help them
remember something. Sometimes those things don't make sense to anyone else.
They're based on the the unique colletion of connections a particular child
has. (And it did turn out that Ethan made up the belly thing himself.)
Joyce
> Explain to me why his belly points one way or the other? I mean, whyI hope you weren't asking me! ;-) I asked the same question when I read it.
> doesn't a lower-case d also have a belly?
I think Teresa said he made it up to help himself. So for some reason that
convoluted obscure little thing helped him.
It's probably not something that would help anyone else.
(All I can think of is that he knew that belly was spelled belly and not
delly so equated the belly on b with the word belly.)
What I meant when I said "Even complicated convoluted ideas might help one
child understand something" are the things kids come up with to help them
remember something. Sometimes those things don't make sense to anyone else.
They're based on the the unique colletion of connections a particular child
has. (And it did turn out that Ethan made up the belly thing himself.)
Joyce
Wife2Vegman
Ok, about this less-than greater-than thing... what I
don't understand is WHY it would ever need to be
taught. I mean, even a 2 year old knows when their
brother gets more cookies than he does...and that he
has less than his brother.
Am I really missing something, or is it just so a kid
can get a few math problems right on a standardized
test and bulk up his score to look good for the
beaurocrats?
wifetovegman
__________________________________
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don't understand is WHY it would ever need to be
taught. I mean, even a 2 year old knows when their
brother gets more cookies than he does...and that he
has less than his brother.
Am I really missing something, or is it just so a kid
can get a few math problems right on a standardized
test and bulk up his score to look good for the
beaurocrats?
wifetovegman
__________________________________
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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
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pam sorooshian
On Dec 14, 2003, at 4:22 PM, Wife2Vegman wrote:
when they learned the meaning.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Ok, about this less-than greater-than thing... what IGood question. I asked my kids and they know, but can't remember why or
> don't understand is WHY it would ever need to be
> taught. I mean, even a 2 year old knows when their
> brother gets more cookies than he does...and that he
> has less than his brother.
>
> Am I really missing something, or is it just so a kid
> can get a few math problems right on a standardized
> test and bulk up his score to look good for the
> beaurocrats?
when they learned the meaning.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Elizabeth Roberts
LOL Sarah came up with that one on her own when trying to remember how to write them correctly...she says "b has a belly" and "d has a derriere!"
MamaBeth
pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
MamaBeth
pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
On Dec 14, 2003, at 7:18 AM, Fetteroll wrote:
> Even complicated convoluted ideas might help one child understand
> something.
> As lowercase b having a belly helps Ethan.
>
Explain to me why his belly points one way or the other? I mean, why
doesn't a lower-case d also have a belly?
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
I have never heard of that explanation! Thanks! That makes sense...Sarah struggles with reversing her letters.
MamaBeth
Wife2Vegman <wifetovegman2002@...> wrote:
--- pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
that is often mistaken for dyslexia in young children.
Everything in a child's world is 3D, until reading and
arithmetic enter in.
A chair is a chair is a chair, whether it is facing
left or right or turned upside down or on its side.
He understands the "chairness" of the object no matter
what its position, and changing the position doesn't
change what it is.
All objects are what they are.
A lowercase p, b, d, q are basically all the same to
the child because he is looking at it with the same
reasoning he explores the rest of his world.
The same for 2 and 5, for 6 and 9.
wifetovegman
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[email protected]
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Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
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Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MamaBeth
Wife2Vegman <wifetovegman2002@...> wrote:
--- pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>> > As lowercase b having a belly helps Ethan.I loved John Holt's explanation of this "phenomenon"
> >
> Explain to me why his belly points one way or the
> other? I mean, why
> doesn't a lower-case d also have a belly?
>
> -pam
that is often mistaken for dyslexia in young children.
Everything in a child's world is 3D, until reading and
arithmetic enter in.
A chair is a chair is a chair, whether it is facing
left or right or turned upside down or on its side.
He understands the "chairness" of the object no matter
what its position, and changing the position doesn't
change what it is.
All objects are what they are.
A lowercase p, b, d, q are basically all the same to
the child because he is looking at it with the same
reasoning he explores the rest of his world.
The same for 2 and 5, for 6 and 9.
wifetovegman
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
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Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
Good point! I have yet to use the symbols in my life for greater than or less than other than when using my personal version of shorthand for notes on sermons or something...NEVER in regards to math! I will use something like "bread x2" when making out a shopping list though.
MamaBeth
Wife2Vegman <wifetovegman2002@...> wrote:
Ok, about this less-than greater-than thing... what I
don't understand is WHY it would ever need to be
taught. I mean, even a 2 year old knows when their
brother gets more cookies than he does...and that he
has less than his brother.
Am I really missing something, or is it just so a kid
can get a few math problems right on a standardized
test and bulk up his score to look good for the
beaurocrats?
wifetovegman
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MamaBeth
Wife2Vegman <wifetovegman2002@...> wrote:
Ok, about this less-than greater-than thing... what I
don't understand is WHY it would ever need to be
taught. I mean, even a 2 year old knows when their
brother gets more cookies than he does...and that he
has less than his brother.
Am I really missing something, or is it just so a kid
can get a few math problems right on a standardized
test and bulk up his score to look good for the
beaurocrats?
wifetovegman
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
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Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
By the way, just to be really clear. I am not saying that these little
memory tricks never work. I'm sure there are people who remember that
the alligator eats the big number.
I'm saying that unschoolers should think really hard about whether or
not they really want to teach their kids to think of math as memorizing
a bunch of tricks. THAT is a really bad idea, imo.
Lots of things "work" in achieving a specific goal, but that doesn't
make them a good idea in the bigger picture. Spanking, bribing,
sweeping the dirt under the rug, stuffing dirty clothes into a closet
<BEG>.
Sometimes little tricks can be played around with to see why they work
or as shortcuts to do something quickly, too. The "nines" trick for
multiplying on the fingers is an example of that. I wouldn't show that
to a kid until they already very thoroughly understood what multiplying
is - but as a fun way to "do" the nines, I would, because I've seen
kids play with it and try to figure out why it works and they learn a
whole lot that way.
I don't see things like the alligator eats the big number as useful in
those ways, though, unless it stimulates the kid to think about whether
alligators really eat numbers or big things or ???
-pam
memory tricks never work. I'm sure there are people who remember that
the alligator eats the big number.
I'm saying that unschoolers should think really hard about whether or
not they really want to teach their kids to think of math as memorizing
a bunch of tricks. THAT is a really bad idea, imo.
Lots of things "work" in achieving a specific goal, but that doesn't
make them a good idea in the bigger picture. Spanking, bribing,
sweeping the dirt under the rug, stuffing dirty clothes into a closet
<BEG>.
Sometimes little tricks can be played around with to see why they work
or as shortcuts to do something quickly, too. The "nines" trick for
multiplying on the fingers is an example of that. I wouldn't show that
to a kid until they already very thoroughly understood what multiplying
is - but as a fun way to "do" the nines, I would, because I've seen
kids play with it and try to figure out why it works and they learn a
whole lot that way.
I don't see things like the alligator eats the big number as useful in
those ways, though, unless it stimulates the kid to think about whether
alligators really eat numbers or big things or ???
-pam
Mary
From: "Elizabeth Roberts" <mamabethuscg@...>
<<LOL Sarah came up with that one on her own when trying to remember how to
write them correctly...she says "b has a belly" and "d has a derriere!" >>
That's cute. But wouldn't it depend on which way this little letter was
standing?
I can see where some people still can't see that as working. If I'm thinking
of the letter facing the opposite way, the b would have the butt and the d
would have the belly.
That's the way Joseph thinks!
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<LOL Sarah came up with that one on her own when trying to remember how to
write them correctly...she says "b has a belly" and "d has a derriere!" >>
That's cute. But wouldn't it depend on which way this little letter was
standing?
I can see where some people still can't see that as working. If I'm thinking
of the letter facing the opposite way, the b would have the butt and the d
would have the belly.
That's the way Joseph thinks!
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com