[email protected]

I've been a lurker on this list for over a year, not always reading every
post, but reading a good bit of the vast amount of information you all have put
out there to support and encourage unschoolers.

My kids are 2 and 4 - I planned to homeschool since before my older child was
even born. Unschooling sounded GREAT to me for a long while, then my
"control freak" nature took hold and I began buying TONS of curriculum items in
preparation for homeschooling the kids. No "school in a box" items, but a
conglomeration of workbooks, tons of books (fiction and nonfiction), manipulatives,
etc. Closest I got to real structure were a Saxon K book and a Learn at Home K
curriculum guide.

Well, we started the Learn at Home K book and did activities and readings
every day for about a month back in August/September. My 4 year old liked it,
never complained about it, and did very well with it. But I just stopped after
about a month, and at the time I didn't know why. He didn't ask to do it
after I'd stopped, so we just went back to "normal life." I then got sick and
have been ill for about 2 months, which has made doing more than reading a few
books a day pretty much impossible. During that time, though, I have thought a
lot about that month we did the "curriculum" and about whether I felt that did
him any "real" good. I looked over the Saxon K book and nearly threw it at
the wall in frustration - what a pointless waste of paper!

Anyway, I've been watching my son play on his own and learn SO many things.
He comes to me with questions, or asks to get books at the library on various
topics. So with that, I'm beginning to see how unschooling CAN work with
younger kids. I "get" how it could be great for older kids, but I guess I still
have misgivings/concerns about unschooling such young kids.

Basically, I want to know this - how do we guide them towards learning such
things as math skills and reading/writing without forcing it on them and
defeating the attempt at unschooling? I know I'm missing a BIG part of the puzzle
here, and I would appreciate the insight you all have. Now that I am getting
over my illness, I was thinking about taking a moderate amount of
books/manipulatives/workbooks and putting them on a small shelf unit in the hallway, and
rotating the selection so the kids can have access to different materials each
week or so. My concern is this - since they can't read, they don't necessarily
know what each book is, or what they would want to do. Should I sit down and
tell them about each item, and just let them know it's there for us to
explore if they would like to? My son, for example, LOVES workbooks (sporadically,
at least - he goes in phases) - should I put two or three out, tell him what
they're about, and just let him as ME to do them, rather than my sitting down
with him and asking if he wants to do some workbook pages? As far as reading
goes, they ask constantly, all day, to read, and I almost always oblige them.

As you can tell, my intentions are good, but I'm clueless about the practical
side of this whole endeavor. ANY advice, suggestions, etc would be much
appreciated.

Susan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

<<How do we guide them?>>

You will find that math, reading, etc. are part of every day stuff,
particularly as your kids get a little older. And because it is part of
every day stuff, the kids learn it as they need to. My Zach, age 10, has
NEVER been very interested in reading. He was limited to sounding out 1
syllable words until about a month ago. He discovered Yu-Gi-Oh cards and to
play very well, he NEEDED to read for himself.....so he does. He is now
reading complete sentences of multi-syllable words. He learned it when he
needed it.

Math is everywhere, all the time. Yesterday, we made cinnamon rolls. There
are 7 in the family so the kids were figuring out how many they could each
have out of the batch and it "be fair". Danny, age 5, is thrilled because
39 pounds is more than 38 pounds so he thinks he just became "bigger" than
his big sister who is 7. We triple the pancake recipe for Saturday
breakfast so even the very little guys understand that we need 3 eggs
instead of 1.

I sometimes wish we could do with less science around here. Marsie always
has some concoction or other going in the freezer. She calls them her
"experiments". (I have visions of Dr. Frankenstein <grin>). We are
breeding all the kids 4-H animals and watching the changes in their bodies
as the birthing time draws near.

I think your idea to set the manipulatives out for the kids to mess with is
a fantastic idea. But I probably wouldn't even say much about them, much
less about how they are "supposed" to be played with, unless the kids asked
specifically. Treat the manipulatives the same way you would any new toy.
By exploring and playing with things in new, unique and even "wrong" ways,
kids see connections that the manipulative inventor never imagined.

As far as books and such, if your son is interested in dinosaurs, you might
mention there is a book about them upstairs if he is interested or that you
saw a video that might be about that at the library. Then follow his lead.

An example was Zach being interested in explosive type stuff. So here I am
looking up explosives on the internet, getting books on fireworks, helping
him build ballistic equipment. (I figure the FBI is watching me <grin>) but
all at his suggestion, at his request.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <rowan555@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:43 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] New to Unschooling, Have a Few Questions


> I've been a lurker on this list for over a year, not always reading every
> post, but reading a good bit of the vast amount of information you all
have put
> out there to support and encourage unschoolers.
>
> My kids are 2 and 4 - I planned to homeschool since before my older child
was
> even born. Unschooling sounded GREAT to me for a long while, then my
> "control freak" nature took hold and I began buying TONS of curriculum
items in
> preparation for homeschooling the kids. No "school in a box" items, but a
> conglomeration of workbooks, tons of books (fiction and nonfiction),
manipulatives,
> etc. Closest I got to real structure were a Saxon K book and a Learn at
Home K
> curriculum guide.
>
> Well, we started the Learn at Home K book and did activities and readings
> every day for about a month back in August/September. My 4 year old liked
it,
> never complained about it, and did very well with it. But I just stopped
after
> about a month, and at the time I didn't know why. He didn't ask to do it
> after I'd stopped, so we just went back to "normal life." I then got sick
and
> have been ill for about 2 months, which has made doing more than reading a
few
> books a day pretty much impossible. During that time, though, I have
thought a
> lot about that month we did the "curriculum" and about whether I felt that
did
> him any "real" good. I looked over the Saxon K book and nearly threw it
at
> the wall in frustration - what a pointless waste of paper!
>
> Anyway, I've been watching my son play on his own and learn SO many
things.
> He comes to me with questions, or asks to get books at the library on
various
> topics. So with that, I'm beginning to see how unschooling CAN work with
> younger kids. I "get" how it could be great for older kids, but I guess I
still
> have misgivings/concerns about unschooling such young kids.
>
> Basically, I want to know this - how do we guide them towards learning
such
> things as math skills and reading/writing without forcing it on them and
> defeating the attempt at unschooling? I know I'm missing a BIG part of
the puzzle
> here, and I would appreciate the insight you all have. Now that I am
getting
> over my illness, I was thinking about taking a moderate amount of
> books/manipulatives/workbooks and putting them on a small shelf unit in
the hallway, and
> rotating the selection so the kids can have access to different materials
each
> week or so. My concern is this - since they can't read, they don't
necessarily
> know what each book is, or what they would want to do. Should I sit down
and
> tell them about each item, and just let them know it's there for us to
> explore if they would like to? My son, for example, LOVES workbooks
(sporadically,
> at least - he goes in phases) - should I put two or three out, tell him
what
> they're about, and just let him as ME to do them, rather than my sitting
down
> with him and asking if he wants to do some workbook pages? As far as
reading
> goes, they ask constantly, all day, to read, and I almost always oblige
them.
>
> As you can tell, my intentions are good, but I'm clueless about the
practical
> side of this whole endeavor. ANY advice, suggestions, etc would be much
> appreciated.
>
> Susan
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

Danielle E. Conger

Susan,

I have Emily 6, Julia 4(almost 5) and Sam 3. Like you, I've been buying
books forever! I think I had all the American Girl "Welcome to..." books
before my oldest had even turned 4, though I never bought curriculum. So, I
know where you're coming from.

I would definitely suggest putting stuff out at the kids' level, letting
them pick and choose in their own way. In my mind, that's what
unschooling's all about. It doesn't mean not having any "educational"
things like manipulatives around; it just means that you don't sit your
child down and tell them that it's "manipulative time." I try to make sure
that we have things around the house that will spur logical thinking
(Zoombini's, chess, puzzles, etc), math play (Uno, Yatzee, dice, etc),
history (American Girls, Liberty's Kids, lots of books), reading (tons of
books), you name it, but I don't divide our life into those categories. I
don't segment or structure our time--those things are available for anyone
(including dh and me) to play around with when we feel like it. We have a
pond, gardens, bird feeders, etc. that are filled with learning
opportunities, but no one HAS to work with them--except me, of course ;).
We have a rich environment where learning can happen, and we go on TONS of
field trips, which spur a tremendous amount of learning for ALL of us!

My kids love playing with tangrams (those colored wooden pieces), puzzles,
legos, geomags, cuisenaire rods, etc. We have lots of neat wooden toys that
would be considered educational, but I just have them out like any other
toy. Just a for instance: I never bought the workbooks that go with the
cuisinaire rods, and we've never really used them the way they're
"supposed" to be used. But the kids love building with them and making
patterns. When my grandfather and other family members have died, they've
been incredibly useful to demonstrate how old that great-grandparent was
versus grandma, mama and Emily, Julia or Sam. We also used them when we
read about the sustainable earth, calculated how much we spent per day,
figured out our budget, etc. They are really great for comparing things and
putting them into a concrete perspective.

Really, though, get those things out and give the control to your kids. Let
them decide how, when, and why they're going to use stuff. The great thing
about Montessori, for instance, is the idea of putting things where the
kids can see them, reach them and be responsible for them. The not so great
thing about Montessori (in my opinion) is the rigidity of the
approach--there's only one right way to use their toys/
manipulatives. Boy, does that cut out creativity and learning
opportunities of all kinds!

Good luck! Just keep living and loving--the learning will follow. Honest.

--danielle

Dawn Adams

Susan writes:
>Basically, I want to know this - how do we guide them towards learning such
>things as math skills and reading/writing without forcing it on them and
>defeating the attempt at unschooling?

My question...How can they NOT learn the basics? The answer...By turning math into numbers and equations, worksheets and desks and not allowing enough time to play with beads, puzzles, patterns, blocks. By making reading and writing into worksheets and drills and not about play. All of the basics are basic because they're absolutely natural and most kids, given time to play and discover well learn them (I can't believe I believe this, it's so far from what I thought I knew a year ago). You don't have to teach the basics or watch for them, you just have to not teach them out of your kids and keep out of the way. My thoughs anyway. :)

Dawn (in NS)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/6/03 9:47:05 AM, rowan555@... writes:

<< My kids are 2 and 4 - >>

Here's a collection of people's unschooling days (typical and special):

http://sandradodd.com/typical

If you see what other families do with their kids you might find it easier
to focus on parts of life that have nothing to do with workbooks or schoolish
checklists and schedules.

This might help too:

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 12/6/03 11:43 AM, rowan555@... at rowan555@... wrote:

> Basically, I want to know this - how do we guide them towards learning such
> things as math skills and reading/writing without forcing it on them and
> defeating the attempt at unschooling?

How did you "guide" them towards learning English? I'm presuming you just
used English as you went about living and they picked it up as a side
effect.

Same with math and reading and writing.

Your kids are still young so it's going to be harder for you to imagine that
they can learn math and reading and writing by using them for real
personally meaningful reasons. But they will if the opportunities are there.

Read to them. (What and when *they* want to.) Listen to stories and books on
tape. Watch movies and TV shows based on books. Subscribe to magazines based
on their interests.

As for writing, make sure they have all sorts of writing implements,
including the computer, and unlimited paper.

Play games. Board, card, dice, computer, video. Shop and discuss the
decisions you're making. "Talk" math, that is, when they ask how long until,
do the manipulations you need to do out loud. Doing arithmetic in your head
forces you to manipulate numbers to make it easier and kids can see how
numbers work.

> I was thinking about taking a moderate
> amount of books/manipulatives/workbooks and putting them on a small shelf unit
> in the hallway, and rotating the selection so the kids can have access to
> different materials each week or so.

I think rotating anything is good. But I think your idea is coming from the
thought that some objects are more useful learning tools so those should be
treated in a special way so that children use them regularly.

The most useful "learning tool" is whatever interests a child. It might be a
workbook, but it's much more likely to be a cartoon or video game or new set
of markers or an opportunity to make muffins or a playground or a bucket of
rocks or ...

> My concern is this - since they can't
> read, they don't necessarily know what each book is, or what they would want
> to do. Should I sit down and tell them about each item, and just let them
> know it's there for us to explore if they would like to?

Would you buy toys and put them on a shelf for the kids to discover on their
own?

Think in terms of having two sets (that overlap) of stuff in the house:
stuff you enjoy doing and stuff they enjoy doing. Would you have the same
concerns over their toys or over the things you enjoy doing with them? The
reason you're having problems with this set of stuff is that it fits neither
set. It's "stuff that's good for them" and you're trying to figure out how
to manipulate your kids into believing it's no different than stuff they
enjoy.

You're dividing the world into learning and playing, stuff that's good for
them and stuff they play with. Everything is potentially learningful.
*Anything* they're interested in has the most learning potential.

The point of unschooling isn't to trick them into playing with things that
are filled with learning. It's to see how they are learning by living and
doing what they enjoy. And then help them do more of that. And also steer
opportunties to expand their interests through their lives.

> My son, for example,
> LOVES workbooks (sporadically, at least - he goes in phases) - should I put
> two or three out, tell him what they're about, and just let him as ME to do
> them, rather than my sitting down with him and asking if he wants to do some
> workbook pages?

If your son loved coloring books, would you be asking for advice on what to
do with them?

Ask him where he'd like to keep them. :-) And then give them no more thought
than you would to whether or not he's completing his coloring books.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/7/2003 3:12:08 AM Mountain Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
-=-> My concern is this - since they can't
> read, they don't necessarily know what each book is, or what they would want
> to do.-=-


Since they can't read, books shouldn't be considered among their top ten
resources.

Books they have discovered an interest in, they'll recognize the same way
they can recognize a food package, or can tell one of their shirts from another
one.


-=-The point of unschooling isn't to trick them into playing with things that
are filled with learning. It's to see how they are learning by living and
doing what they enjoy. And then help them do more of that. And also steer
opportunties to expand their interests through their lives.
-=-

Well put.

I woke up this morning and there's the after-effect of boys having played a
game on the dining table. There are printed out character sheets, cards, dice
and "damage counters" (those little flat-bottomed drops of glass that used to
be called "Pente pieces").

I walked on by. I see those things a lot.

Those games involve reading, writing and math.
They involve logic (both mathematical and reading/writing/thought related
logic).
They end up involving interpersonal skills.
Many of the involve map reading.
Some involve real-world history or geography, while others are fantasy based.

I never designed for them to play those games, but I never discouraged it
either and over the years their games became more complicated and I saw more and
more "learning."

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Roberts

Susan,

My daughter Sarah loves workbooks. She'll go in spurts. It is easier now that she is reading, but before she was reading I'd help her with them. Have them available, but just let them work as they'd like to when they want to. If they don't touch them for a long time, try not to worry about it!

Children have an amazing curiosity of the world around them, and they will either sit back and watch and figure things out or they will ask questions, usually both at times. Just be honest with them, and open, and don't be afraid to say I don't know the answer to that but I know how to find out - then go and find out!

Include them in every aspect of your life, from chores to cooking to shopping, etc. Just let them live and be children.

MamaBeth




Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**Basically, I want to know this - how do we guide them towards learning
such
things as math skills and reading/writing without forcing it on them and
defeating the attempt at unschooling? **

My one sentence advice would be "Live an interesting life and wait
patiently."

But I confess that the "patiently" part sometimes drives me crazy and my
kid is watching *lots* of cartoons. Time for me to amp up the
"interesting" in our lives, I guess.

Betsy