inmdcrew

Hoping for some suggestions. usually we put out presents xmas eve
after kiddos go to bed. this year they want the presents out as i
wrap them. (yes, we have our tree up already lol! 2 in fact.) but
everytime i set one down they are opening them. we've discussed how
it might feel xmas morning to see no presents. it is truly their
choice but i also know come xmas day they are going to feel awful
bad.
i've thought of keeping a few back but i feel i would be lying to
them as i promised them i would lay them out. and i don't have an
unlimited budget to keep replacing gifts. they are 11 and 7.
any ideas?
tina

catherine aceto

Tina writes:
I don't have an
unlimited budget to keep replacing gifts. they are 11 and 7.
any ideas?



My comments:

Think of the whole month of December as "Christmas." Think about whether you are correct that they will be disappointed. Think about whether it might be useful not to shield them from this disappointment (if they are disappointed) -- it seems like a pretty harmless and useful way of figuring out whether they like their presents now or later. Maybe they like them now, maybe later! Have one small and special present that you don't wrap until Christmas (maybe a game the whole family could play?)

Get out all the presents (already opened) and put them back under the tree Xmas eve, so that all the presents they have gotten are all there Xmas morning, reminding them of what they received.

Last Christmas my daughter (then 5) opened some presents on Christmas day and some didn't get opened for nearly a week. She played with each one as it was opened. She likes to open birthday presents in front of the giver as each child arrives at her party - rather than waiting for some "present opening" time.

-Cat


Hoping for some suggestions. usually we put out presents xmas eve
after kiddos go to bed. this year they want the presents out as i
wrap them. (yes, we have our tree up already lol! 2 in fact.) but
everytime i set one down they are opening them. we've discussed how
it might feel xmas morning to see no presents. it is truly their
choice but i also know come xmas day they are going to feel awful
bad.
i've thought of keeping a few back but i feel i would be lying to
them as i promised them i would lay them out. and
tina



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/26/03 12:31:27 PM, Hatfield72@... writes:

<< i've thought of keeping a few back but i feel i would be lying to

them as i promised them i would lay them out. and i don't have an

unlimited budget to keep replacing gifts. they are 11 and 7.

any ideas? >>

I think it should be a simple matter of "if then."

IF you want them out you have to leave them alone until Christmas.

If they open them, I would keep them all hidden until time and tell them why.

Maybe just put boring stuff there like socks and pajamas and if they open
them get them to wrap them back up and leave them alone. Practice gifts. <g>

<< but everytime i set one down they are opening them. >>

Personally, I can't imagine a kid just opening a gift I said not to open.
But mine have been used to gifts under the tree being basically part of the
decorations each year and they've never even sneaked into one. Marty likes to
shake them so we put bells and cans of rocks and stuff in his to disguise real
sounds.

Sandra

J. Stauffer

Why not ask the kids if they would like you to keep a few back? Otherwise I
wouldn't worry too much about it. My 7yo had dug through my closet and
found her birthday gifts. She knew exactly what she was getting and i knew
she knew. I simply wrapped them up anyway and put them out for her on her
birthday. She opened them happily.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "inmdcrew" <Hatfield72@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 12:22 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] xmas presents dilemma


> Hoping for some suggestions. usually we put out presents xmas eve
> after kiddos go to bed. this year they want the presents out as i
> wrap them. (yes, we have our tree up already lol! 2 in fact.) but
> everytime i set one down they are opening them. we've discussed how
> it might feel xmas morning to see no presents. it is truly their
> choice but i also know come xmas day they are going to feel awful
> bad.
> i've thought of keeping a few back but i feel i would be lying to
> them as i promised them i would lay them out. and i don't have an
> unlimited budget to keep replacing gifts. they are 11 and 7.
> any ideas?
> tina
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

Mary

From: <SandraDodd@...>

<<Personally, I can't imagine a kid just opening a gift I said not to open.
But mine have been used to gifts under the tree being basically part of the
decorations each year and they've never even sneaked into one. Marty likes
to
shake them so we put bells and cans of rocks and stuff in his to disguise
real
sounds. >>



I've been Christmas shopping for qute a few weeks already. Mostly for the 3
younger kids. They don't ask for much but what they ask for is specific and
I want to be sure to find it for them. So anyway, all the gifts are
unwrapped in my closet kind of hidden. Mostly just so whenever they are
around and open the closet doors, they won't see anything. The kids never go
looking. They are all very much into the surprise of the day, no matter what
they day is. I try and start to wrap the gifts around a week before
Christmas and lay them under the tree. I can't ever remember saying "don't
open the presents." It's just taken for granted that they are Christmas
presents and it isn't Christmas yet.

And Sandra I love the idea of disguising the gifts with sound. Every year
Joe takes great pleasure in guessing what we got him before he opens it. He
almost always guesses right. A few rocks or bells should do the trick!!


Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com

Tia Leschke

>
>I've been Christmas shopping for qute a few weeks already. Mostly for the 3
>younger kids. They don't ask for much but what they ask for is specific and
>I want to be sure to find it for them. So anyway, all the gifts are
>unwrapped in my closet kind of hidden. Mostly just so whenever they are
>around and open the closet doors, they won't see anything. The kids never go
>looking. They are all very much into the surprise of the day, no matter what
>they day is. I try and start to wrap the gifts around a week before
>Christmas and lay them under the tree. I can't ever remember saying "don't
>open the presents." It's just taken for granted that they are Christmas
>presents and it isn't Christmas yet.

Some kids love the surprise and others can't stand it. My older son
couldn't stand it. "Just *tell* me, Mum. Just *tell* me!" Knowing what I
know now, I wouldn't have made him wait. Or maybe I would have saved
something special and not even mentioned it, but let him know or see what
the others were. My other kids seemed to love the surprise and wouldn't
look even when they knew where to look.
Tia

Mary

From: "Tia Leschke" <leschke@...>

<<Some kids love the surprise and others can't stand it. My older son
couldn't stand it. "Just *tell* me, Mum. Just *tell* me!" Knowing what I
know now, I wouldn't have made him wait. Or maybe I would have saved
something special and not even mentioned it, but let him know or see what
the others were. My other kids seemed to love the surprise and wouldn't
look even when they knew where to look.>>


Joseph is like that when we go somewhere. He doesn't like to not know where
we're headed. So I usually tell him and not the others. They like the
surprise and he's happier knowing what's in store for us. But when it comes
to presents, he doesn't want to know. And I always tease Tara about getting
her something or coming home swinging bags saying I bought her more
presents. She'll whine and ask what they are. I'll ask her if she really
wants to know and she doesn't, she hates to find out ahead of time. She once
went snooping when she was little, found a Lite Brite we were getting her
and was all upset until christmas. She had other things of course but just
didn't like the idea that she saw something early. She said she never
snooped after that! Of course I never heard about it until years later!


Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com

inmdcrew

"Think about whether you are correct that they will be disappointed."

Yes, I know that they will be disappointed. My son esp. (11)

"Think about whether it might be useful not to shield them from this
disappointment"

Well, that is what I was thinking. Maybe this would help them
wait.

"Get out all the presents (already opened) and put them back under
the tree Xmas eve, so that all the presents they have gotten are all
there Xmas morning, reminding them of what they received."

That is a good way to remind them of the items they have already
received.

Thanks,
Tina



>
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inmdcrew

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/26/03 12:31:27 PM, Hatfield72@H... writes:
>
> << i've thought of keeping a few back but i feel i would be lying
to
>
> them as i promised them i would lay them out. and i don't have an
>
> unlimited budget to keep replacing gifts. they are 11 and 7.
>
> any ideas? >>
>
> I think it should be a simple matter of "if then."
>
> IF you want them out you have to leave them alone until Christmas.
>
> If they open them, I would keep them all hidden until time and
tell them why.
>
> Maybe just put boring stuff there like socks and pajamas and if
they open
> them get them to wrap them back up and leave them alone. Practice
gifts. <g>
>
> << but everytime i set one down they are opening them. >>
>
> Personally, I can't imagine a kid just opening a gift I said not
to open.
> But mine have been used to gifts under the tree being basically
part of the
> decorations each year and they've never even sneaked into one.
Marty likes to
> shake them so we put bells and cans of rocks and stuff in his to
disguise real
> sounds.
>
> Sandra



I know that I am really new here and I am probably mistaken.
I don't understand however: How is laying gifts out and then
telling them to not open them giving them true freedom? I know that
you aren't telling me to do so, but I would like to know how that
worked for your family. I thought by laying the gifts out and
letting the kids decide to open them or not was giving them the
truest form of freedom and respect. But as you read I am torn b/c I
can foresee 2 very let down children on xmas morning when that tree
has only 1-2 gifts maybe instead of 10-15 or however many I can
afford.
Thanks for any insights. By the way have been enjoying your columns
over at the website.
Tina

inmdcrew

I did ask them that. Since we never have had gifts under the tree
before they wanted to do it this way. We may still end up with no
gifts under the tree at the rate their going. LOL!
I am a worrywart unfortunately. Lol!
Thanks
Tina



--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer"
<jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> Why not ask the kids if they would like you to keep a few back?
Otherwise I
> wouldn't worry too much about it. My 7yo had dug through my
closet and
> found her birthday gifts. She knew exactly what she was getting
and i knew
> she knew. I simply wrapped them up anyway and put them out for
her on her
> birthday. She opened them happily.
>
> Julie S.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "inmdcrew" <Hatfield72@H...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 12:22 PM
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] xmas presents dilemma
>
>
> > Hoping for some suggestions. usually we put out presents xmas
eve
> > after kiddos go to bed. this year they want the presents out as
i
> > wrap them. (yes, we have our tree up already lol! 2 in fact.)
but
> > everytime i set one down they are opening them. we've discussed
how
> > it might feel xmas morning to see no presents. it is truly their
> > choice but i also know come xmas day they are going to feel awful
> > bad.
> > i've thought of keeping a few back but i feel i would be lying to
> > them as i promised them i would lay them out. and i don't have an
> > unlimited budget to keep replacing gifts. they are 11 and 7.
> > any ideas?
> > tina
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >

inmdcrew

"It's just taken for granted that they are Christmas
presents and it isn't Christmas yet."

Well, that is what I thought. However since I am new to unschooling
and relaxed parenting, it is kinda like the video game issue. I
think since they have never had gifts under the tree waiting there
till xmas, it's a temptation they can't resist.
Tina

inmdcrew

That sounds just like my son. He cannot handle delayed
gratification and wants what he wants NOW! The conservative
upbringing that I was raised in (that I had relaxed considerably
with him) only served to make him worse on wanting his way. So I
have been lurking and learning here on and off for about a year.
What do you know now that you can share with me?
Tina

> Some kids love the surprise and others can't stand it. My older
son
> couldn't stand it. "Just *tell* me, Mum. Just *tell* me!" Knowing
what I
> know now, I wouldn't have made him wait. Or maybe I would have
saved
> something special and not even mentioned it, but let him know or
see what
> the others were. My other kids seemed to love the surprise and
wouldn't
> look even when they knew where to look.
> Tia

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> I don't understand however: How is laying gifts out and then
> telling them to not open them giving them true freedom?

If I had a birthday present for my husband and I laid it on the table
awaiting an anticipated birthday party in two days, I would be hurt and
quite angry if he opened it without my permission! I feel the same way
about Christmas presents. It belongs to me until December 25th, then it is
a gift that I give and is no longer mine and the recipient can do whatever
they want with it. "True freedom" should never interfere with true respect.

I can't imagine my children disrepecting me and opening gifts ahead of time.
Even my 3 yo knows that gifts are special and you wait until everyone is
watching you to open them. [She is also an excellent gift wrapper.] That
said, I hide almost all of the presents away from under the tree until
Christmas, because the _cats_ have been known to open a couple. As gifts
come in from family, I put those under the tree in their boxes until closer
to Christmas. We also spread Christmas out and do Solstice and New Year's
presents, also. These are usually group type gifts (games, movies, puzzles,
etc.) and we spend those days together enjoying the gifts and each other.

-Lisa in AZ

inmdcrew

See I am totally disagreeing on this issue. I am trying to get my
kids to learn to grow and make their own decisions now that we have
moved away from a conservative background with a school in the box
attitude. I have been hs for about 7 years now with only the last
year being unschooled and way more relaxed parenting. I no longer
fuss about bedtimes, food issues, clothing, etc. Every day I am
getting better.

My main point was I told them they could do what they want with the
gifts. I am just a little worried they will be utterly disappointed
on xmas day. But I want them to make their own way and decisions.

I would never tell my husband what he could or couldn't do, i.e.
needing my permission. And I am trying to do the same with my kids.
My kids aren't disrespecting me. I believe they are just setting
themselves up for a sadness come that "special" morning. But maybe
after so many years of having to wait, they will truly find in
themselves the desire to wait.

In my eyes the gifts became theirs the minute I bought them for them.
Tina




--- In [email protected], "Lisa M. Cottrell
Bentley" <cottrellbentley@c...> wrote:
> > I don't understand however: How is laying gifts out and then
> > telling them to not open them giving them true freedom?
>
> If I had a birthday present for my husband and I laid it on the
table
> awaiting an anticipated birthday party in two days, I would be
hurt and
> quite angry if he opened it without my permission! I feel the
same way
> about Christmas presents. It belongs to me until December 25th,
then it is
> a gift that I give and is no longer mine and the recipient can do
whatever
> they want with it. "True freedom" should never interfere with
true respect.
>
> I can't imagine my children disrepecting me and opening gifts
ahead of time.
> Even my 3 yo knows that gifts are special and you wait until
everyone is
> watching you to open them. [She is also an excellent gift
wrapper.] That
> said, I hide almost all of the presents away from under the tree
until
> Christmas, because the _cats_ have been known to open a couple.
As gifts
> come in from family, I put those under the tree in their boxes
until closer
> to Christmas. We also spread Christmas out and do Solstice and
New Year's
> presents, also. These are usually group type gifts (games,
movies, puzzles,
> etc.) and we spend those days together enjoying the gifts and each
other.
>
> -Lisa in AZ

Tia Leschke

>
>
>Well, that is what I thought. However since I am new to unschooling
>and relaxed parenting, it is kinda like the video game issue. I
>think since they have never had gifts under the tree waiting there
>till xmas, it's a temptation they can't resist.

It seems we've always had at least one little around, either kid or
grandkid, who wouldn't be able to resist ripping open a present, any old
present. So we've always just kept them hidden away and brought them out
Christmas Eve. (We do half and half - about half the presents Christmas Eve
in the German way, and the other half in the morning.)
Tia

Tia Leschke

>That sounds just like my son. He cannot handle delayed
>gratification and wants what he wants NOW! The conservative
>upbringing that I was raised in (that I had relaxed considerably
>with him) only served to make him worse on wanting his way. So I
>have been lurking and learning here on and off for about a year.
>What do you know now that you can share with me?

From reading this list? I think now I would just tell him. Or maybe tell
him a couple of presents but hold some back unmentioned so he would still
have something that was a surprise. If that still bothered him, the
following year I'd just tell him all of them. It would be up to him if he
didn't like it and wanted to go back to being surprised.
Tia

liza sabater

On Wednesday, November 26, 2003, at 07:39 PM, inmdcrew wrote:
> My main point was I told them they could do what they want with the
> gifts. I am just a little worried they will be utterly disappointed
> on xmas day. But I want them to make their own way and decisions.

Hi Tina,

I get then that the issue is not so much whether they will be
disappointed but whether you will be ready to deal with their
disappointment. Still, the only way all of you will know whether it
will be a disappointing experience of not is by going through it. So
this may be or may not be a disappointing XMAS.

One thing to keep in mind is that by altering the way you are handling
this day you are altering tradition. I'm not talking about a social
tradition but what is considered a tradition in your family. So I think
what you might need to take into consideration is tradition. What kinds
of new traditions can you think up? Since you are ready to give up the
suspense, in what other way can you bring it into the day? Is this
something you think your family would be into?

Then, no matter what they may be in for a downer. Change can do that to
ya. The thing to remember is that change and the disappointment that
might come with it are OK. When you boiled it down to the bone, a
tradition is a practice. When you start a new practice, just as any
newbie, you will have more misses than hits. But as the cliche goes,
practice makes perfect. This may not be a perfect XMAS but maybe next
year will.

I mean, this whole deschooling / unschooling experience has been rife
with ups and downs for my husband and I. Our kids? Not at all. They
take our cues from us. Like with the patience thing. Thing1 (Evan) is
the NOW guy, way more than the little one who is 3 1/2. Of course, used
to drive me up the wall until after being here for a while and going
back to yoga, I got that patience is not just a quality one is born
with, it's a skill one develops with practice. So every time he gets
testy because it is not NOW, I remind him (and myself) that what he
needs is to practice patience. He's into sports and is learning guitar
so he understands how much better he gets at things after practicing.
He hates to hear and yet he smiles because he now takes it as a
challenge.

So maybe you guys may want to take this XMAS as a "practice run" for
next year. I know, it sounds utterly moronic but that's the point. If
you are doing something completely different might as well go all the
way in the silly department --- a good does of levity might be just
what you need.

Best,
Liza

Karen McLaughlin

<< And Sandra I love the idea of disguising the gifts with sound. Every year
Joe takes great pleasure in guessing what we got him before he opens it. He
almost always guesses right. A few rocks or bells should do the trick!!>>

A tradition we've had in my family ever since I can remember (my dad started
it) is to write a clue on each present so we can try and guess what they
are-so it's fun to have everything wrapped for awhile so we can sit around
the tree and ponder what might be in each of the packages. Of course, the
more cryptic the clue, the better, and we often try to disguise things with
stuff like rocks and bells too, and wrapping small gifts in big boxes, etc.
It seems every Christmas there's at least one that's got me *totally*
stumped and we then get to go back and "figure out" the clue once we've
opened the gift.

Karen

Fetteroll

on 11/26/03 5:25 PM, inmdcrew at Hatfield72@... wrote:

> I thought by laying the gifts out and
> letting the kids decide to open them or not was giving them the
> truest form of freedom and respect.

You've gotten what people are saying about giving kids freedom to make their
own choices.

But sometimes they don't truly understand the consequences of their actions
and they'd want us to help them. For instance they might want to play in the
street but they wouldn't want us to allow them to get hit by a car. They may
want to hit the dog with a stick, but they wouldn't want us to allow them to
get bitten. They'd want us to step in with superior understanding of the big
picture when they aren't capapable of grasping it.

You know they'll be majorly disappointed on Christmas so they really do want
your help to get them what they want (surprise and lots of presents on
Christmas).

I think unconsciously you're treating Christmas as a time to open up the
door to the toy store. And your unfortunate role is to block their access to
the door until Christmas day. That seems cruel so it does seem like a better
choice to let them get the presents as you buy them.

But as others have pointed out, you've cut yourself out of the picture. It's
a trap that most people fall into with gift giving. It becomes all about the
recipient getting what he wants and not about the opporunity for the gift
giver to make someone happy.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 11/26/03 7:39 PM, inmdcrew at Hatfield72@... wrote:

> In my eyes the gifts became theirs the minute I bought them for them.

And that's the source of your dilemma. If your husband found you the perfect
present, would you want him to treat the gift as yours as soon as he bought
it? Doing so eliminates his role of being able to *present* it to you. If it
becomes yours as soon as he buys it, then he becomes more of a conduit that
changes money into something you want. You might as well buy it yourself.

By setting gift giving up as an opportunity to get, it eliminates that "true
spirit" that people always decries is missing.

It's not that it's wrong to create a getting opportunity, it's just that
you've discovered some of the consequences.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/26/2003 6:16:41 PM Central Standard Time,
mummy124@... writes:
I've been Christmas shopping for qute a few weeks already. Mostly for the 3
younger kids. They don't ask for much but what they ask for is specific and
I want to be sure to find it for them. So anyway, all the gifts are
unwrapped in my closet kind of hidden. Mostly just so whenever they are
around and open the closet doors, they won't see anything. The kids never go
looking. They are all very much into the surprise of the day, no matter what
they day is. I try and start to wrap the gifts around a week before
Christmas and lay them under the tree. I can't ever remember saying "don't
open the presents." It's just taken for granted that they are Christmas
presents and it isn't Christmas yet.
~~~

That's exactly how it is in my house. Over the years, one or two of them
have peeked. It REALLY ruins it for ME when they do that. Opening them ahead of
time has the same effect for me. I really want that all-together time when
there's wrapping paper *everywhere* and the oohs and aahs and the thank-yous
and the just-what-I-wanteds!

Gift giving is an agreement between two people. You just don't open gifts
unless the giver agrees to it. That's why kids (anyone) opening the presents
without asking just really feels like a punch in the stomach to me.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/26/2003 9:21:12 PM Central Standard Time,
Hatfield72@... writes:
I would never tell my husband what he could or couldn't do, i.e.
needing my permission.
~~~

But if you thought he was doing something that would have an impact he
perhaps hadn't thought of, you'd discuss it with him, right? That kind of
disappointment effects the whole family. Sourpusses on Christmas are a real downer.
My kids make their own decisions, but they get to have input from me, too.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

KathrynJB@... writes:


> LOL Because he wasn't in school, Julian was free to believe in Santa until
> the last minute...so he did until he was 12, at least officially.
>


Glad to hear someone mention this -- I've been noticing that our
8-year-old, who is so precocious in so many other ways, doesn't have a clue. It's
wonderful (as in I am full of wonder) to see him develop each idea and ability
and awareness at whatever rate is right for him, without being forced or
teased or shamed. :) :) JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

inmdcrew

Thank you. Just telling him sounds like a good idea. I really want
to "put the ball in his court" as far as surprises go.
Tina




--- In [email protected], Tia Leschke
<leschke@s...> wrote:
>
> >That sounds just like my son. He cannot handle delayed
> >gratification and wants what he wants NOW! The conservative
> >upbringing that I was raised in (that I had relaxed considerably
> >with him) only served to make him worse on wanting his way. So I
> >have been lurking and learning here on and off for about a year.
> >What do you know now that you can share with me?
>
> From reading this list? I think now I would just tell him. Or
maybe tell
> him a couple of presents but hold some back unmentioned so he
would still
> have something that was a surprise. If that still bothered him,
the
> following year I'd just tell him all of them. It would be up to
him if he
> didn't like it and wanted to go back to being surprised.
> Tia

inmdcrew

Liza,
You wrote so clearly and were very helpful. Thanks.
We are already starting a new tradition. We decided we are going to
spend the whole day at home. Normally, we would rush through gifts,
pack up and head to 2 families. Not this year. This is going to be
our year to stay home and play with those new gifts, darn it. Which
come to think of it, may have something to do with the "let's open
them now" idea.
Tina





--- In [email protected], liza sabater
<listdiva@c...> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, November 26, 2003, at 07:39 PM, inmdcrew wrote:
> > My main point was I told them they could do what they want with
the
> > gifts. I am just a little worried they will be utterly
disappointed
> > on xmas day. But I want them to make their own way and
decisions.
>
> Hi Tina,
>
> I get then that the issue is not so much whether they will be
> disappointed but whether you will be ready to deal with their
> disappointment. Still, the only way all of you will know whether
it
> will be a disappointing experience of not is by going through it.
So
> this may be or may not be a disappointing XMAS.
>
> One thing to keep in mind is that by altering the way you are
handling
> this day you are altering tradition. I'm not talking about a
social
> tradition but what is considered a tradition in your family. So I
think
> what you might need to take into consideration is tradition. What
kinds
> of new traditions can you think up? Since you are ready to give up
the
> suspense, in what other way can you bring it into the day? Is this
> something you think your family would be into?
>
> Then, no matter what they may be in for a downer. Change can do
that to
> ya. The thing to remember is that change and the disappointment
that
> might come with it are OK. When you boiled it down to the bone, a
> tradition is a practice. When you start a new practice, just as
any
> newbie, you will have more misses than hits. But as the cliche
goes,
> practice makes perfect. This may not be a perfect XMAS but maybe
next
> year will.
>
> I mean, this whole deschooling / unschooling experience has been
rife
> with ups and downs for my husband and I. Our kids? Not at all.
They
> take our cues from us. Like with the patience thing. Thing1 (Evan)
is
> the NOW guy, way more than the little one who is 3 1/2. Of course,
used
> to drive me up the wall until after being here for a while and
going
> back to yoga, I got that patience is not just a quality one is
born
> with, it's a skill one develops with practice. So every time he
gets
> testy because it is not NOW, I remind him (and myself) that what
he
> needs is to practice patience. He's into sports and is learning
guitar
> so he understands how much better he gets at things after
practicing.
> He hates to hear and yet he smiles because he now takes it as a
> challenge.
>
> So maybe you guys may want to take this XMAS as a "practice run"
for
> next year. I know, it sounds utterly moronic but that's the point.
If
> you are doing something completely different might as well go all
the
> way in the silly department --- a good does of levity might be
just
> what you need.
>
> Best,
> Liza

inmdcrew

Tuck and Ren,
I'll just combine the replies and give you a little background on my
journey to unschooling. Bear with me. Both my hubbie and I come
from a conservative Christian background (think Mennonite/Amish--
with the whole skirts and head coverings rules). The head covering
went first then the skirts, but the rules and the you need to do as
I say stayed for a long time. Permission is the key word that set
me off in these posts. That whole permission bit led me to a year
long separation with my hubbie, lasting effects on my son, and the
family on all sides thinking I've lost my head and joined the cult.
School in the box hs for close to 7 years, with gradual steadiness
bringing me to a huge lifestyle change with unschooling and relaxed
parenting has clinched the deal with the family.
Joyce has probably said it best for me. In my eageriness to apply
even more freedom I have cut myself out of the progress. But I
would like to say that for more than 12 hours now 2 gifts have laid
unopened. Perhaps the kids took care of the issue on their own. I
would rather err on the side of too much freedom, even if it means I
may be hurt a little in the progress, than to have to grow up with
the rules shoved down your throat.
By the way, I still love the Lord and still practice my beliefs.
But I gave up on church about 5 years ago. So this is a one on one
practice. I don't belong to any support groups with statements of
faith, etc. b/c I can't get myself to sign on the dotted line.
Thanks for bearing with me. And thanks for all of the suggestions.
Tina





--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/26/2003 9:21:12 PM Central Standard Time,
> Hatfield72@H... writes:
> I would never tell my husband what he could or couldn't do, i.e.
> needing my permission.
> ~~~
>
> But if you thought he was doing something that would have an
impact he
> perhaps hadn't thought of, you'd discuss it with him, right? That
kind of
> disappointment effects the whole family. Sourpusses on Christmas
are a real downer.
> My kids make their own decisions, but they get to have input from
me, too.
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

inmdcrew

Forgot to answer the question, sorry. We are doing great as a
married couple now. We talk things over and say "what would be the
best, etc." But we try to never tell each other what to do. We are
really conscious of certain sighs, hmms, etc. b/c nonverbal was a
problem also growing up. We're far from perfect but we are totally
different from our growing up culture and from what we were when we
first married.
Tina







--- In [email protected], "inmdcrew"
<Hatfield72@H...> wrote:
> Tuck and Ren,
> I'll just combine the replies and give you a little background on
my
> journey to unschooling. Bear with me. Both my hubbie and I come
> from a conservative Christian background (think Mennonite/Amish--
> with the whole skirts and head coverings rules). The head
covering
> went first then the skirts, but the rules and the you need to do
as
> I say stayed for a long time. Permission is the key word that set
> me off in these posts. That whole permission bit led me to a year
> long separation with my hubbie, lasting effects on my son, and the
> family on all sides thinking I've lost my head and joined the cult.
> School in the box hs for close to 7 years, with gradual steadiness
> bringing me to a huge lifestyle change with unschooling and
relaxed
> parenting has clinched the deal with the family.
> Joyce has probably said it best for me. In my eageriness to apply
> even more freedom I have cut myself out of the progress. But I
> would like to say that for more than 12 hours now 2 gifts have
laid
> unopened. Perhaps the kids took care of the issue on their own.
I
> would rather err on the side of too much freedom, even if it means
I
> may be hurt a little in the progress, than to have to grow up with
> the rules shoved down your throat.
> By the way, I still love the Lord and still practice my beliefs.
> But I gave up on church about 5 years ago. So this is a one on one
> practice. I don't belong to any support groups with statements of
> faith, etc. b/c I can't get myself to sign on the dotted line.
> Thanks for bearing with me. And thanks for all of the suggestions.
> Tina
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a...
wrote:
> > In a message dated 11/26/2003 9:21:12 PM Central Standard Time,
> > Hatfield72@H... writes:
> > I would never tell my husband what he could or couldn't do, i.e.
> > needing my permission.
> > ~~~
> >
> > But if you thought he was doing something that would have an
> impact he
> > perhaps hadn't thought of, you'd discuss it with him, right?
That
> kind of
> > disappointment effects the whole family. Sourpusses on
Christmas
> are a real downer.
> > My kids make their own decisions, but they get to have input
from
> me, too.
> >
> > Tuck
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-=-I know that I am really new here and I am probably mistaken.

I don't understand however: How is laying gifts out and then

telling them to not open them giving them true freedom?-=-

Do you want to define "true freedom" and explain why that's the crux of this
topic?

I can probably guess. I might guess wrong, but I think you've read what we've
written about specific things, like not forcing kids to read, letting them
choose their own books; not forcing kids to eat, letting them choose their own
food; not making kids go to bed at some arbitrary early hour; letting them
choose this'n'that about how and where to sleep; not forcing them to turn the TV
off, letting them choose what they watch, and extrapolating from that something
about "true freedom."

My kids have a lot of choices in their lives. They have so many choices it
might look like "true freedom" to someone who's used to controlling or being
controlled or being around a lot of controlling other-families who justify
control.

There's never been a time I've said to my children "I don't care what you
do." I always care. I LOVE to know what they're doing and why they're making
those decisions. They love to know mine too. It's part of learning how to be,
learning what decisions aren't so great, learning to live in the world in a
smoothe way so that we can enjoy it and those around us are having a good time
too.

-=-I thought by laying the gifts out and

letting the kids decide to open them or not was giving them the

truest form of freedom and respect.-=-

I think you should practice this freedom and respect stuff with things that
really don't matter, like whether they eat at one table or another, whether
they wear the blue jacket or the fuzzy one, or try it without a jacket until they
get too cold and come back for the jacket.

There should be things to learn from choices, and opening gifts too soon and
spoiling a holidy might cause them to learn their mom didn't plan ahead very
well.

<< By the way have been enjoying your columns

over at the website.>>

Thanks.

I know it's got to be different when a family makes a big decision to change
directions instead of just starting with attachment parenting and moving on
to unschooling a few years later. I don't recommend a moment in ANYbody's
life when they say "I don't care what you eat" or "I don't care when you go to
sleep."

Just like getting lots of gifts instead of one big one, if you say "sure,"
"okay," "yes" to lots of requests for watching a movie late or having cake for
breakfast or them playing another half hour on the swings and you can just read
a book in the car nearby, then they get TONS of yes, and permission, and
approval. If you throw your hands up and say "Whatever," that's a disturbing
moment of mom seeming not to care instead of mom seeming the provider of an
assortment of joyous approvals.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/26/03 8:21:03 PM, Hatfield72@... writes:

<< My main point was I told them they could do what they want with the

gifts. I am just a little worried they will be utterly disappointed

on xmas day. But I want them to make their own way and decisions. >>

Maybe you shouldn't have told them that.

You can say "I thought this was a good idea, but it turns out I made a
mistake."

It's good to model what to do when you mess up.

They can't "make their own way and decisions" about traditional holidays if
you don't show them the traditional way. Maybe if they said they just didn't
want to do Christmas at all anymore, you could let them have their way about
that. Last year Holly and Keith decorated the tree without me (I couldn't get
up the stairs yet, at that point; I was in the den with a broken leg). She put
on flower fairies she had made, and angels. That was all. That's okay.

There are ways to give them leeway and decision making without just giving
them power to screw it all up, which is probably NOT power they wanted.

<<My kids aren't disrespecting me. I believe they are just setting

themselves up for a sadness come that "special" morning. >>

It's entrapment, on your part, I think.

I don't think you MEANT to give them enough rope to hang Christmas, but you
did.

We've taken our kids to Disneyland. Holly's 9th birthday. It costs money.
If we had given the kids that money to hold, in advance, and said "You can
spend it if you want, but it's the Disneyland money," they might have, being
little, spent it. If they did, and then we said, "Oh, we can't go to Disneyland
now; you spent the money," that would be cruel.

Some things we need to take care of so the kids still have them. Wrapped
gifts, Disneyland money, their bikes and game systems, their favorite clothes,
etc. I hate when I hear a mom say "I told him if he left it in the driveway it
would get ruined/run over/frozen/stolen, and he left it there anyway." She
could have saved that sorrow, but chose not to.


<<In my eyes the gifts became theirs the minute I bought them for them.

Tina>>

Then you're doing something foreign to me and I can't advise.

Sandra

inmdcrew

Oh, I do care. And they know I care. We talked about what it might
be like xmas am with no presents. I meant true freedom as letting
them find out consequences on their own. I pointed the
disappointment,etc. out but they wanted to try it. I've always even
in my "old life" said either yes or no or let me think about it for
an hour then I'll tell you what I think. Never whatever. Probably
should've never used the word "true". Sorry.
We started out really slowly over a year ago changing our life and
it has progressed from little issues to this big xmas one.
But like I said a couple of posts ago, that maybe you haven't got to
yet, it has been about 12 hours now that they have left 2 presents
alone. To me that's a good sign that maybe they have been thinking
about what we talked about.
Thanks
Tina





--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> -=-I know that I am really new here and I am probably mistaken.
>
> I don't understand however: How is laying gifts out and then
>
> telling them to not open them giving them true freedom?-=-
>
> Do you want to define "true freedom" and explain why that's the
crux of this
> topic?
>
> I can probably guess. I might guess wrong, but I think you've read
what we've
> written about specific things, like not forcing kids to read,
letting them
> choose their own books; not forcing kids to eat, letting them
choose their own
> food; not making kids go to bed at some arbitrary early hour;
letting them
> choose this'n'that about how and where to sleep; not forcing them
to turn the TV
> off, letting them choose what they watch, and extrapolating from
that something
> about "true freedom."
>
> My kids have a lot of choices in their lives. They have so many
choices it
> might look like "true freedom" to someone who's used to
controlling or being
> controlled or being around a lot of controlling other-families who
justify
> control.
>
> There's never been a time I've said to my children "I don't care
what you
> do." I always care. I LOVE to know what they're doing and why
they're making
> those decisions. They love to know mine too. It's part of
learning how to be,
> learning what decisions aren't so great, learning to live in the
world in a
> smoothe way so that we can enjoy it and those around us are having
a good time
> too.
>
> -=-I thought by laying the gifts out and
>
> letting the kids decide to open them or not was giving them the
>
> truest form of freedom and respect.-=-
>
> I think you should practice this freedom and respect stuff with
things that
> really don't matter, like whether they eat at one table or
another, whether
> they wear the blue jacket or the fuzzy one, or try it without a
jacket until they
> get too cold and come back for the jacket.
>
> There should be things to learn from choices, and opening gifts
too soon and
> spoiling a holidy might cause them to learn their mom didn't plan
ahead very
> well.
>
> << By the way have been enjoying your columns
>
> over at the website.>>
>
> Thanks.
>
> I know it's got to be different when a family makes a big
decision to change
> directions instead of just starting with attachment parenting and
moving on
> to unschooling a few years later. I don't recommend a moment in
ANYbody's
> life when they say "I don't care what you eat" or "I don't care
when you go to
> sleep."
>
> Just like getting lots of gifts instead of one big one, if you
say "sure,"
> "okay," "yes" to lots of requests for watching a movie late or
having cake for
> breakfast or them playing another half hour on the swings and you
can just read
> a book in the car nearby, then they get TONS of yes, and
permission, and
> approval. If you throw your hands up and say "Whatever," that's a
disturbing
> moment of mom seeming not to care instead of mom seeming the
provider of an
> assortment of joyous approvals.
>
> Sandra