an old statement about help, and new request
[email protected]
"We are here to help each other learn. A statement like
the above is like a Christian man going to a Rabbi and asking for help with
his faith. Then crying out *WHY didn't you help me? The advice you gave
doesn't apply to my Christian life!* The Rabbi can only help from his Jewish
point of view. We can only help from our Unschooling lives point of view. We
can't give advice on punishments. Other than to say we don't use them, and we
feel they don't work, and we feel there are more effective ways to live with
our children."
This is a year old. It was written by one of the wise homeschooling moms
named "Nancy." Now I wish I knew which one. But it was good, and it's still
good.
When someone hates the ideas presented here, it's hard, but if we give people
advice they like regardless of what we really believe, we're not really going
to be helping anybody.
I was talking to Holly and Marty about people getting angry when we say "eep"
about ideas like walking away from a kid who's crying and locking him out.
They both got big eyes about that story, and I wish I could magically (or
electronically) convey the looks on their faces. I think they'll be really good
parents, and if they do better than I did, WONDERFUL! If they say "I just
decided to be a better mom than my mom was," that would be great. I have screwed
up in an assortment of ways, but I keep moving toward the me I would like to
be.
One of the moms who left the list (but might come back, I don't know) said I
treated her like she wasn't smart (I don't have the exact quote here, and
that's okay).
That's a hard thing to answer. If I respond to ideas on the merit of the
idea itself, I thinying, "Well this one should be cut slack or ignored because
she seems not to be thinking very well," that would seem to me when I was
treating someone as though she were less intelligent.
So it's a problem for me. Assuming everyone is really on equal footing may
not be realistic, but sorting and treating some as second-string isn't nice.
On the discussion boards someone wrote a long request for information, and
after I wrote a long response, she said "I came here for help. Can anyone help
me?" (Or some such.) Others did respond too, but although she asked me
direct (and seemingly snarky) questions, I wrote this:
By Sandra Dodd (Sandradodd) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 04:35 pm:
-=-I am asking for advice on unschooling. . . .Can
anyone help me? -=-
If you came to me with a hammer in your hands
saying you wanted to learn to play recorder, I
would ask you to put down the hammer.
I AM trying to help.
I will lend you a recorder. I will GIVE you a
recorder, but you need both hands free to accept
it.
Sandra
-----
I feel bad, because her first post was very enthusiastic, but it was
disdainful of her kids in a way, and clearly she doesn't want to give up making them
read, telling them what to do, and getting "results" she's already foreseen.
But it was (in terms of Nancy's analogy) as though she was gushing full voice
about what a WONDERFUL church this was and how at home she was going to be,
and someone said "it's a synagogue, but you're welcome," and she said "I came
here for a church, when is Mass?"
It's hard helping a lot of people at once.
It's too much for volunteers to help each person individually.
I learn from the exchanges when we get some good ideas flowing, and I don't
want to abandon the full-list format, but sometimes it's really, truly
frustrating to find people complaining that they didn't get what they came for.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/info
We don't have a FAQ yet. That might be nice, for newer people to the list.
If you guys write the questions, Joyce can write the answers! (Okay, we
won't make Joyce do ALL the work.)
Maybe people here could propose questions AND answers for them, for
newcomers.
Sandra
the above is like a Christian man going to a Rabbi and asking for help with
his faith. Then crying out *WHY didn't you help me? The advice you gave
doesn't apply to my Christian life!* The Rabbi can only help from his Jewish
point of view. We can only help from our Unschooling lives point of view. We
can't give advice on punishments. Other than to say we don't use them, and we
feel they don't work, and we feel there are more effective ways to live with
our children."
This is a year old. It was written by one of the wise homeschooling moms
named "Nancy." Now I wish I knew which one. But it was good, and it's still
good.
When someone hates the ideas presented here, it's hard, but if we give people
advice they like regardless of what we really believe, we're not really going
to be helping anybody.
I was talking to Holly and Marty about people getting angry when we say "eep"
about ideas like walking away from a kid who's crying and locking him out.
They both got big eyes about that story, and I wish I could magically (or
electronically) convey the looks on their faces. I think they'll be really good
parents, and if they do better than I did, WONDERFUL! If they say "I just
decided to be a better mom than my mom was," that would be great. I have screwed
up in an assortment of ways, but I keep moving toward the me I would like to
be.
One of the moms who left the list (but might come back, I don't know) said I
treated her like she wasn't smart (I don't have the exact quote here, and
that's okay).
That's a hard thing to answer. If I respond to ideas on the merit of the
idea itself, I thinying, "Well this one should be cut slack or ignored because
she seems not to be thinking very well," that would seem to me when I was
treating someone as though she were less intelligent.
So it's a problem for me. Assuming everyone is really on equal footing may
not be realistic, but sorting and treating some as second-string isn't nice.
On the discussion boards someone wrote a long request for information, and
after I wrote a long response, she said "I came here for help. Can anyone help
me?" (Or some such.) Others did respond too, but although she asked me
direct (and seemingly snarky) questions, I wrote this:
By Sandra Dodd (Sandradodd) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 04:35 pm:
-=-I am asking for advice on unschooling. . . .Can
anyone help me? -=-
If you came to me with a hammer in your hands
saying you wanted to learn to play recorder, I
would ask you to put down the hammer.
I AM trying to help.
I will lend you a recorder. I will GIVE you a
recorder, but you need both hands free to accept
it.
Sandra
-----
I feel bad, because her first post was very enthusiastic, but it was
disdainful of her kids in a way, and clearly she doesn't want to give up making them
read, telling them what to do, and getting "results" she's already foreseen.
But it was (in terms of Nancy's analogy) as though she was gushing full voice
about what a WONDERFUL church this was and how at home she was going to be,
and someone said "it's a synagogue, but you're welcome," and she said "I came
here for a church, when is Mass?"
It's hard helping a lot of people at once.
It's too much for volunteers to help each person individually.
I learn from the exchanges when we get some good ideas flowing, and I don't
want to abandon the full-list format, but sometimes it's really, truly
frustrating to find people complaining that they didn't get what they came for.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/info
We don't have a FAQ yet. That might be nice, for newer people to the list.
If you guys write the questions, Joyce can write the answers! (Okay, we
won't make Joyce do ALL the work.)
Maybe people here could propose questions AND answers for them, for
newcomers.
Sandra
arcarpenter2003
> It's hard helping a lot of people at once.I don't
> It's too much for volunteers to help each person individually.
> I learn from the exchanges when we get some good ideas flowing, and
> want to abandon the full-list format, but sometimes it's really, trulythey came for.
> frustrating to find people complaining that they didn't get what
Sandra and all,
I hear your frustration, so maybe this is a good time to jump in with
my story. Fisher left first grade two weeks ago and has been
unschooling ever since. I have gone through every conceivable
emotion, especially during the week we made the decision and had to
tell people. But every time I panic, every time I think "dear God,
what have I done," I make myself read the posts on the web site, or go
to SandraDodd.com, or pick up a John Holt book. If I was on the web
site, I would specifically look for Sandra's posts, or Joyce's or
Pam's or some of the other long-timers -- my time is limited and I
just wanted to get to the voices of unschooling for the moment, and
not to the questions -- I wanted to jump right to the "answers." <G>
And it worked. We're having a great time. We're watching all kinds
of TV and wondering lots of things about the shows we're watching. We
write down lists of Toys We're Interested In from the commercials. We
play Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh -- the card games and pretend adventures,
sometimes with some Dora thrown in. Fisher made up an awesome game
that we played with the characters from Yu-gi-oh making up imaginary
teams -- he threw a ball up the steps, counted which step it landed
on, divided that number in half, and that was the score for that
player. After a bunch of rounds, we added up the scores -- he worked
with the math because, after all, it was his game and he wanted to
know how to score it. We've run to Toys R Us to buy a Yu-gi-oh
monster shootout game that he saw advertised and really wanted --
before we went we had a great discussion about money and how our
household finances work (since I had to make sure I had enough money
to buy the game <g> -- I didn't have enough for all the extra figures,
so he chipped in with his saved birthday/allowance money).
Most of all, I have my son back. Slowly he's coming back from being
over-scheduled and somewhat sullen. He has loads of time to play with
his baby brother, and I get more hugs and kisses than I've gotten in
months. He got sad about missing school exactly twice, when he saw
the big good-bye card that his class made for him. After that, I
asked him if he missed school and the answer was immediate and simple: no.
I still have questions that I'll bring up another time, but for right
now, you should know that what you're doing is helping. I let go of
the side of the pool and whaddya know, the water does hold me up! So
thank you.
Peace,
Amy
Robyn Coburn
<<We don't have a FAQ yet. That might be nice, for newer people to the
list.
If you guys write the questions, Joyce can write the answers! (Okay, we
won't make Joyce do ALL the work.)
Maybe people here could propose questions AND answers for them, for
newcomers. >>
I think this could be fun to do for its own sake, but I wouldn't expect this
to remove repetitive basic questions from some new people even if the exact
question is answered. How many people seem to write "I know it says to read
for a while before posting but, how do I get my child to read? She just sits
all day and watches tv, unless I make her go outside."
I left another list, partly because this list was better, and partly because
I got so tired of the same endless questions about how to file an R-4 posted
daily, despite the introduction directing people back to the list's parent
group page that has step-by-step instructions on how to do it, and FAQ
pages. Some people are lazy, some people want to feel special. I see
sometimes people ask a silly question and get invited to read for a while
longer. Maybe there should be a standard answer that gets sent out by one of
the moderators: Please go to the FAQ page. Am I just cynical?
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
list.
If you guys write the questions, Joyce can write the answers! (Okay, we
won't make Joyce do ALL the work.)
Maybe people here could propose questions AND answers for them, for
newcomers. >>
I think this could be fun to do for its own sake, but I wouldn't expect this
to remove repetitive basic questions from some new people even if the exact
question is answered. How many people seem to write "I know it says to read
for a while before posting but, how do I get my child to read? She just sits
all day and watches tv, unless I make her go outside."
I left another list, partly because this list was better, and partly because
I got so tired of the same endless questions about how to file an R-4 posted
daily, despite the introduction directing people back to the list's parent
group page that has step-by-step instructions on how to do it, and FAQ
pages. Some people are lazy, some people want to feel special. I see
sometimes people ask a silly question and get invited to read for a while
longer. Maybe there should be a standard answer that gets sent out by one of
the moderators: Please go to the FAQ page. Am I just cynical?
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/24/03 2:03:29 PM, dezigna@... writes:
<< Maybe there should be a standard answer that gets sent out by one of
the moderators: Please go to the FAQ page. Am I just cynical? >>
Yeah, but that's okay.
If ALL we ever do is say "read the rules, read the FAQ" it will be as boring
as if we discuss R-4s all the time (especially since only nine people are in
California <g>).
Some balance might be good, though. A FAQ for those who are into reading
stuff like that would give them a boost toward the deeper parts of the
discussions. They could help the rest of us answer the repetitive questions.
Sandra
<< Maybe there should be a standard answer that gets sent out by one of
the moderators: Please go to the FAQ page. Am I just cynical? >>
Yeah, but that's okay.
If ALL we ever do is say "read the rules, read the FAQ" it will be as boring
as if we discuss R-4s all the time (especially since only nine people are in
California <g>).
Some balance might be good, though. A FAQ for those who are into reading
stuff like that would give them a boost toward the deeper parts of the
discussions. They could help the rest of us answer the repetitive questions.
Sandra