rules vs. principles
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/03 5:10:38 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< If they understand the rules and the rules are sensible why are they be
pushing the limits repeatedly?
If they don't understand the rules then hitting isn't an explanation.
If the rules don't make sense then hitting doesn't make them make sense.
about rules.
A close longtime friend of mine, Jeff (for those of you who know me or Jeff
<g>), is married to someone who's stricter than I like, and sometimes stricter
than Jeff likes. His kids are younger than mine. We talk. I told Jeff kids
can't break rules when there are principles instead of rules, and he said we
MUST have rules, we just like to call them principles.
I said no, they weren't rules, but we had regular practices which are just
accepted, like if I wake up and a kid is gone, there's e-mail or a note. If
someone takes the kitchen trash out, they replace the bag. He said then those
are rules.
I don't think they are. I'd love to discuss that here.
Ben Lovejoy, Kelly's husband, did a workshop on principles at the conference
in August. While Ben was talking, I felt really confident. It helps lots
that Ben has a military background and he KNOWS rules, and he feels he's living
with principles.
Jeff is from an academic background (both parents college prof-types though
he himself became an engineer, though he could have a PhD in history without
even breathing hard, probably just with stuff he has around the house <g>), and
could easily be already on the trail to few rules in life. He's not, though.
And as to my two non-rules, yesterday I threw something (a paper towel) in
the trashere was no bag in the trash can. She looked in, and there were TWO
pieces of trash. I got a bag, she got the trash out, Keith (who was in the
room) said "Oh, I guess I didn't replace the bag; sorry." Holly held the trash
while I got the bag in, put the trash back in, and nobody was "in trouble." It
was no big deal.
I got up early this morning and went to gaze upon the children in their beds
(or at least to get some juice out of the fridge, and on the way...
I usually gaze upon Holly and Kirby's closed doors, but Kirby's door was
open. He never sleeps with his door open. And a little light was flashing. So I
turned the hall light on and peeked in. No extra futons on the floor. Dog
on the bed (typical) and one human form. Cell phone on the floor. Kirby
doesn't have a cell phone. Shape smaller than Kirby. Looks like his friend Eric.
I turned the light off.
The door to the library (big garage-sized room, not coincidentally over the
garage) was pulled shut (sliding door) but the light was on. I listened;
quiet. I turned the light off, nobody objected. I thought maybe Kirby wasn't
home. He worked until 1:00 a.m. and had my van.
The van's outside. Their friend Brett's truck (or someone's truck) is
outside.
I figure some fell asleep with the light on, in the library.
I could go up there and see if Kirby's home, but when I was Kirby's age I was
in college and sometimes NOT home. Kirby is way calmer, less involved with
the opposite sex, and less needy of being gone than I was at his age. If he's
not up there, I'm sure he's somewhere reasonable and safe. If he IS up there,
why wake him and at least one other teen up at 6:00 a.m.?
That's what I thought.
One more story before I leave this for others to analyze or expand upon: the
dog's water dish is in the kitchen, and for the third time in a week, it was
not so clean and not so full (dry or nearly dry with dissolving dry dog food
in it). I picked it up to rinse and fill it, and Marty (14, and the dog owner
of record) was in the room. I thought quickly through some options of what
to say. I have little pulldown menus like the Terminator sometimes. Not
always, but sometimes.
This time I think I picked a good one.
I said "Maybe you're changing the dog's water every day, but if so you might
want to do it twice a day."
I liked that one. It was useful, yet subtle. I wasn't mean and he didn't
feel "told." I didn't say "never" and I didn't say "always," I just said
"more."
Sandra
<< If they understand the rules and the rules are sensible why are they be
pushing the limits repeatedly?
If they don't understand the rules then hitting isn't an explanation.
If the rules don't make sense then hitting doesn't make them make sense.
>>That was addressed to someone who talked about rules, but I want to talk
about rules.
A close longtime friend of mine, Jeff (for those of you who know me or Jeff
<g>), is married to someone who's stricter than I like, and sometimes stricter
than Jeff likes. His kids are younger than mine. We talk. I told Jeff kids
can't break rules when there are principles instead of rules, and he said we
MUST have rules, we just like to call them principles.
I said no, they weren't rules, but we had regular practices which are just
accepted, like if I wake up and a kid is gone, there's e-mail or a note. If
someone takes the kitchen trash out, they replace the bag. He said then those
are rules.
I don't think they are. I'd love to discuss that here.
Ben Lovejoy, Kelly's husband, did a workshop on principles at the conference
in August. While Ben was talking, I felt really confident. It helps lots
that Ben has a military background and he KNOWS rules, and he feels he's living
with principles.
Jeff is from an academic background (both parents college prof-types though
he himself became an engineer, though he could have a PhD in history without
even breathing hard, probably just with stuff he has around the house <g>), and
could easily be already on the trail to few rules in life. He's not, though.
And as to my two non-rules, yesterday I threw something (a paper towel) in
the trashere was no bag in the trash can. She looked in, and there were TWO
pieces of trash. I got a bag, she got the trash out, Keith (who was in the
room) said "Oh, I guess I didn't replace the bag; sorry." Holly held the trash
while I got the bag in, put the trash back in, and nobody was "in trouble." It
was no big deal.
I got up early this morning and went to gaze upon the children in their beds
(or at least to get some juice out of the fridge, and on the way...
I usually gaze upon Holly and Kirby's closed doors, but Kirby's door was
open. He never sleeps with his door open. And a little light was flashing. So I
turned the hall light on and peeked in. No extra futons on the floor. Dog
on the bed (typical) and one human form. Cell phone on the floor. Kirby
doesn't have a cell phone. Shape smaller than Kirby. Looks like his friend Eric.
I turned the light off.
The door to the library (big garage-sized room, not coincidentally over the
garage) was pulled shut (sliding door) but the light was on. I listened;
quiet. I turned the light off, nobody objected. I thought maybe Kirby wasn't
home. He worked until 1:00 a.m. and had my van.
The van's outside. Their friend Brett's truck (or someone's truck) is
outside.
I figure some fell asleep with the light on, in the library.
I could go up there and see if Kirby's home, but when I was Kirby's age I was
in college and sometimes NOT home. Kirby is way calmer, less involved with
the opposite sex, and less needy of being gone than I was at his age. If he's
not up there, I'm sure he's somewhere reasonable and safe. If he IS up there,
why wake him and at least one other teen up at 6:00 a.m.?
That's what I thought.
One more story before I leave this for others to analyze or expand upon: the
dog's water dish is in the kitchen, and for the third time in a week, it was
not so clean and not so full (dry or nearly dry with dissolving dry dog food
in it). I picked it up to rinse and fill it, and Marty (14, and the dog owner
of record) was in the room. I thought quickly through some options of what
to say. I have little pulldown menus like the Terminator sometimes. Not
always, but sometimes.
This time I think I picked a good one.
I said "Maybe you're changing the dog's water every day, but if so you might
want to do it twice a day."
I liked that one. It was useful, yet subtle. I wasn't mean and he didn't
feel "told." I didn't say "never" and I didn't say "always," I just said
"more."
Sandra
Kelly Lenhart
I think you did a very good job of illustrating the difference between rules
and principles.
I'm having to remind myself that the principle is that my two year old be
safe, not that he hold my hand in streets or stay close enough to
rab. -sigh-
Kelly
and principles.
I'm having to remind myself that the principle is that my two year old be
safe, not that he hold my hand in streets or stay close enough to
rab. -sigh-
Kelly
Deborah Lewis
***if I wake up and a kid is gone, there's e-mail or a note. If
someone takes the kitchen trash out, they replace the bag. He said then
those
are rules.***
***I don't think they are. I'd love to discuss that here.***
A few weeks (months?) ago there was a rules vs. principles discussion on
another list.
One person had to look up both words in order to make her point they
meant "exactly" the same thing, and then, didn't make her point.
A principle internally motivates you to do the things that seem good and
right. People develop principles by living with people with principles
and seeing the real benefits of such a life.
A rule externally compels you, through force, threat or punishment, to do
the things someone else has deemed good or right. People follow or
break rules.
Which is the hope most parents have for their kids? Do they hope their
kids will comply with and follow rules, or do they hope their kids will
live their lives making choices that are good and right?
Most people heard sometime, somewhere "we have to have rules" and they
swallowed it because they were punished if they didn't, and so, here they
are today, talking about rules without any thought to what rules really
are.
For a lot of people, thinking too deeply about what they believe is too
painful. It's just easier to do what was done to them.
Deb L, off to meet the wild women for coffee...
someone takes the kitchen trash out, they replace the bag. He said then
those
are rules.***
***I don't think they are. I'd love to discuss that here.***
A few weeks (months?) ago there was a rules vs. principles discussion on
another list.
One person had to look up both words in order to make her point they
meant "exactly" the same thing, and then, didn't make her point.
A principle internally motivates you to do the things that seem good and
right. People develop principles by living with people with principles
and seeing the real benefits of such a life.
A rule externally compels you, through force, threat or punishment, to do
the things someone else has deemed good or right. People follow or
break rules.
Which is the hope most parents have for their kids? Do they hope their
kids will comply with and follow rules, or do they hope their kids will
live their lives making choices that are good and right?
Most people heard sometime, somewhere "we have to have rules" and they
swallowed it because they were punished if they didn't, and so, here they
are today, talking about rules without any thought to what rules really
are.
For a lot of people, thinking too deeply about what they believe is too
painful. It's just easier to do what was done to them.
Deb L, off to meet the wild women for coffee...
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/03 8:50:14 AM, mina@... writes:
<< I'm having to remind myself that the principle is that my two year old be
safe, not that he hold my hand in streets or stay close enough to
grab. >>
(I think you meant 'grab' right?)
I'm going to save this example and would love to have others.
Even though I had to take a break to collect my thoughts, I would like to win
this argument with my friend Jeff. <g> It would make me feel better for a
minute and probably make his kids' lives better for years.
Do others here have contributions of examples for me? Thanks in advance.
Sandra, the crazed collector
<< I'm having to remind myself that the principle is that my two year old be
safe, not that he hold my hand in streets or stay close enough to
grab. >>
(I think you meant 'grab' right?)
I'm going to save this example and would love to have others.
Even though I had to take a break to collect my thoughts, I would like to win
this argument with my friend Jeff. <g> It would make me feel better for a
minute and probably make his kids' lives better for years.
Do others here have contributions of examples for me? Thanks in advance.
Sandra, the crazed collector
Tim and Maureen
It seems to me that rules control others and principles guide them. Hence, (there's a PhD word<g>) if rules, I don't have to think for myself. Like in a school setting - bells rings, stand up, move, sit down, write this, look here, look there. Jail, military, school - all very rule bound. And from what I've seen the bastion of free-thought and academic freedom is actually very rule-bound - Universities, with their flavour of "teachers."
Principles, on other hand, are guides to respectful living, freedom, and openness. We can value completely different interpretations of the principles. In his book on how to a volunteer board that works, John Carver (ironically also a PhD) points out that setting guidelines allows "any reasonable interpretation" of a broad guideline, rather than tying the organization up in knots with rule books.
The best **theoretical** example I've heard of is the way the US congress governs the Pres. Broad guidelines, like "commonly accepted practices." They don't tie him tight with a rulebook. Not sure that it really works that way, or works that well as a form of governance, but it may form an example.
As in Sandra's example, it seems to me that she lives by setting those guidelines, accepts reasonable interpretations, and make suggestions to help the kids (others?) live more fully.
My (morning) thots,
Tim T
Principles, on other hand, are guides to respectful living, freedom, and openness. We can value completely different interpretations of the principles. In his book on how to a volunteer board that works, John Carver (ironically also a PhD) points out that setting guidelines allows "any reasonable interpretation" of a broad guideline, rather than tying the organization up in knots with rule books.
The best **theoretical** example I've heard of is the way the US congress governs the Pres. Broad guidelines, like "commonly accepted practices." They don't tie him tight with a rulebook. Not sure that it really works that way, or works that well as a form of governance, but it may form an example.
As in Sandra's example, it seems to me that she lives by setting those guidelines, accepts reasonable interpretations, and make suggestions to help the kids (others?) live more fully.
My (morning) thots,
Tim T
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 5:53 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] rules vs. principles
In a message dated 11/23/03 5:10:38 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< If they understand the rules and the rules are sensible why are they be
pushing the limits repeatedly?
If they don't understand the rules then hitting isn't an explanation.
If the rules don't make sense then hitting doesn't make them make sense.
>>
That was addressed to someone who talked about rules, but I want to talk
about rules.
A close longtime friend of mine, Jeff (for those of you who know me or Jeff
<g>), is married to someone who's stricter than I like, and sometimes stricter
than Jeff likes. His kids are younger than mine. We talk. I told Jeff kids
can't break rules when there are principles instead of rules, and he said we
MUST have rules, we just like to call them principles.
I said no, they weren't rules, but we had regular practices which are just
accepted, like if I wake up and a kid is gone, there's e-mail or a note. If
someone takes the kitchen trash out, they replace the bag. He said then those
are rules.
I don't think they are. I'd love to discuss that here.
Ben Lovejoy, Kelly's husband, did a workshop on principles at the conference
in August. While Ben was talking, I felt really confident. It helps lots
that Ben has a military background and he KNOWS rules, and he feels he's living
with principles.
Jeff is from an academic background (both parents college prof-types though
he himself became an engineer, though he could have a PhD in history without
even breathing hard, probably just with stuff he has around the house <g>), and
could easily be already on the trail to few rules in life. He's not, though.
And as to my two non-rules, yesterday I threw something (a paper towel) in
the trashere was no bag in the trash can. She looked in, and there were TWO
pieces of trash. I got a bag, she got the trash out, Keith (who was in the
room) said "Oh, I guess I didn't replace the bag; sorry." Holly held the trash
while I got the bag in, put the trash back in, and nobody was "in trouble." It
was no big deal.
I got up early this morning and went to gaze upon the children in their beds
(or at least to get some juice out of the fridge, and on the way...
I usually gaze upon Holly and Kirby's closed doors, but Kirby's door was
open. He never sleeps with his door open. And a little light was flashing. So I
turned the hall light on and peeked in. No extra futons on the floor. Dog
on the bed (typical) and one human form. Cell phone on the floor. Kirby
doesn't have a cell phone. Shape smaller than Kirby. Looks like his friend Eric.
I turned the light off.
The door to the library (big garage-sized room, not coincidentally over the
garage) was pulled shut (sliding door) but the light was on. I listened;
quiet. I turned the light off, nobody objected. I thought maybe Kirby wasn't
home. He worked until 1:00 a.m. and had my van.
The van's outside. Their friend Brett's truck (or someone's truck) is
outside.
I figure some fell asleep with the light on, in the library.
I could go up there and see if Kirby's home, but when I was Kirby's age I was
in college and sometimes NOT home. Kirby is way calmer, less involved with
the opposite sex, and less needy of being gone than I was at his age. If he's
not up there, I'm sure he's somewhere reasonable and safe. If he IS up there,
why wake him and at least one other teen up at 6:00 a.m.?
That's what I thought.
One more story before I leave this for others to analyze or expand upon: the
dog's water dish is in the kitchen, and for the third time in a week, it was
not so clean and not so full (dry or nearly dry with dissolving dry dog food
in it). I picked it up to rinse and fill it, and Marty (14, and the dog owner
of record) was in the room. I thought quickly through some options of what
to say. I have little pulldown menus like the Terminator sometimes. Not
always, but sometimes.
This time I think I picked a good one.
I said "Maybe you're changing the dog's water every day, but if so you might
want to do it twice a day."
I liked that one. It was useful, yet subtle. I wasn't mean and he didn't
feel "told." I didn't say "never" and I didn't say "always," I just said
"more."
Sandra
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Kelly Lenhart
In a message dated 11/23/03 8:50:14 AM, mina@... writes:
<< stay close enough to grab. >>
Kelly
<< stay close enough to grab. >>
>(I think you meant 'grab' right?)Did I say gab? -grin-
>I'm going to save this example and would love to have others.I'll try to think of some.
Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/03 9:35:03 AM, tmthomas@... writes:
<< Jail, military, school - all very rule bound. >>
I understand that those would have rules, too.
When I was teaching I had a rule that I didn't want writing turned in on
notebook paper torn out of a spiral, with all the fringe on it. A pile of 130 of
those is a big pile, and I trailed litter (a $300 fine in New Mexico <g>).
If they used spiral paper, they needed to cut that edge off. I had scissors
for them to use. I would give them plain notebook paper too, if they didn't
have any. Some of the kids acted like I was ruining their lives saying "cut
that edge off or I don't want it."
I don't mind following rules. The principle that it's best to do what others
need you to do in a situation covers that. <g> I obey most of the laws of
which I'm aware (though it's been years since I filed a statement of intent to
homeschool, and Holly reads speed limit signs to me sometimes in a meaningful
way).
My kids don't mind following rules when they join clubs or attend meetings in
places with rules. The anime store where they play (and where Kirby came to
work after a while) has a language rule. They can say "crap" but nothing else
of its sort or worse. There's a 25 cent fine. If they don't have a quarter
they do pushups. But because of that rule, families go there that wouldn't
go if it had the atmosphere of a sleazy bowling alley. (It has the atmosphere
of a geeky gaming store.)
I think one reason they don't mind following rules is that they haven't
already "had it up to here" with rules, as kids have who have a whole life of home
rules and school rules. They find rules kind of fascinating and charming,
honestly. When Holly's had a dress code for a dance class or acting class she
is THRILLED.
Maybe also because they haven't been forced to take classes or go to gaming
shops (?!?) they know they're there voluntarily and part of the contract is
that they abide by the rules. No problem.
Probably some families make rules so that their kids will learn to follow
rules. It's possible. Too much practice can kill the joy, though. Being forced
to play an instrument can create an adult who doesn't even bother to own one
of the instruments he knows how to play, because how he's out of school he
doesn't "have to." If someone made me practice eating before every meal, I
wouldn't be very hungry.
So here I have kids who can sleep as long as they want, who set their alarms
and get up; who have all kinds of clothes and no rules, who dress well and
appropriately to the situation; who don't have to come home but they DO come home.
Something important is happening.
<< Jail, military, school - all very rule bound. >>
I understand that those would have rules, too.
When I was teaching I had a rule that I didn't want writing turned in on
notebook paper torn out of a spiral, with all the fringe on it. A pile of 130 of
those is a big pile, and I trailed litter (a $300 fine in New Mexico <g>).
If they used spiral paper, they needed to cut that edge off. I had scissors
for them to use. I would give them plain notebook paper too, if they didn't
have any. Some of the kids acted like I was ruining their lives saying "cut
that edge off or I don't want it."
I don't mind following rules. The principle that it's best to do what others
need you to do in a situation covers that. <g> I obey most of the laws of
which I'm aware (though it's been years since I filed a statement of intent to
homeschool, and Holly reads speed limit signs to me sometimes in a meaningful
way).
My kids don't mind following rules when they join clubs or attend meetings in
places with rules. The anime store where they play (and where Kirby came to
work after a while) has a language rule. They can say "crap" but nothing else
of its sort or worse. There's a 25 cent fine. If they don't have a quarter
they do pushups. But because of that rule, families go there that wouldn't
go if it had the atmosphere of a sleazy bowling alley. (It has the atmosphere
of a geeky gaming store.)
I think one reason they don't mind following rules is that they haven't
already "had it up to here" with rules, as kids have who have a whole life of home
rules and school rules. They find rules kind of fascinating and charming,
honestly. When Holly's had a dress code for a dance class or acting class she
is THRILLED.
Maybe also because they haven't been forced to take classes or go to gaming
shops (?!?) they know they're there voluntarily and part of the contract is
that they abide by the rules. No problem.
Probably some families make rules so that their kids will learn to follow
rules. It's possible. Too much practice can kill the joy, though. Being forced
to play an instrument can create an adult who doesn't even bother to own one
of the instruments he knows how to play, because how he's out of school he
doesn't "have to." If someone made me practice eating before every meal, I
wouldn't be very hungry.
So here I have kids who can sleep as long as they want, who set their alarms
and get up; who have all kinds of clothes and no rules, who dress well and
appropriately to the situation; who don't have to come home but they DO come home.
Something important is happening.
Elizabeth Roberts
Well, for what it's worth...I've been following these threads lately about chores, rules, responsibilities, spanking ("training") vs. not spanking, etc.
What it made me realize is that while we rarely if ever spank..I do yell entirely way too much at the children. A large part of this has been because I suffer from a chronic depression that is made worse due to being post-partum. I was supposed to be on Paxil again immediately after delivering Gracie but suffered superficial blood clots, a pulmonary embolism and then I developed a DVT. I'm on Coumadin for another three months because of it, and coumadin interacts with just about everything.
However, these discussions did help me to realize that in order to better effectively parent my children I needed to be back on the Paxil if at all possible with the coumadin. Yelling and screaming all the time..seeing my children's faces as they didn't understand why I was being so mean...and a couple of times my older child (the one who has been spanked most in her life, albeit not for quite awhile) even literally cowering crouched with her hands in the air to protect herself thinking that I was about to hit her...YIKES! That got to me...and I could hear the echos of these conversations, my own inner sense of right and wrong and ultimately knowing that Jesus Christ would not be yelling at these children like I was.
SO I bit back pride and everything else and we've had a pretty wonderful week with me back on the medications. It's easier now to keep to not spanking, and while like I said we keep that option open..we really rarely would need to spank...
ANYWAY I think I'm rambling...things are not really going good here unschooling wise in that my husband wants us to return to more structured academics and actually so does Sarah. I'm going to try to keep it very informal though, just making sure she does some mathematics and writing each day but as dissimilar to school work as I can make it.
I could use some help figuring out how to do more academics to keep him happy, but as little as possible to keep us happy. Sarah does like workbooks and she'll do them in bits and spurts. I have to show a portfolio at the end of the year but I'm not really worried about pulling that together.
Elizabeth in MA
---------------------------------
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What it made me realize is that while we rarely if ever spank..I do yell entirely way too much at the children. A large part of this has been because I suffer from a chronic depression that is made worse due to being post-partum. I was supposed to be on Paxil again immediately after delivering Gracie but suffered superficial blood clots, a pulmonary embolism and then I developed a DVT. I'm on Coumadin for another three months because of it, and coumadin interacts with just about everything.
However, these discussions did help me to realize that in order to better effectively parent my children I needed to be back on the Paxil if at all possible with the coumadin. Yelling and screaming all the time..seeing my children's faces as they didn't understand why I was being so mean...and a couple of times my older child (the one who has been spanked most in her life, albeit not for quite awhile) even literally cowering crouched with her hands in the air to protect herself thinking that I was about to hit her...YIKES! That got to me...and I could hear the echos of these conversations, my own inner sense of right and wrong and ultimately knowing that Jesus Christ would not be yelling at these children like I was.
SO I bit back pride and everything else and we've had a pretty wonderful week with me back on the medications. It's easier now to keep to not spanking, and while like I said we keep that option open..we really rarely would need to spank...
ANYWAY I think I'm rambling...things are not really going good here unschooling wise in that my husband wants us to return to more structured academics and actually so does Sarah. I'm going to try to keep it very informal though, just making sure she does some mathematics and writing each day but as dissimilar to school work as I can make it.
I could use some help figuring out how to do more academics to keep him happy, but as little as possible to keep us happy. Sarah does like workbooks and she'll do them in bits and spurts. I have to show a portfolio at the end of the year but I'm not really worried about pulling that together.
Elizabeth in MA
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24hrmom
Here's one that have happened last night / this morning:
Joseph (he's 11) has been staying up late for a couple months. We have asked him to please turn off the lights before he goes to sleep. But it's not a "rule". If the rule was to be allowed to stay up late, you must turn off all the lights before you go to sleep, we'd be having regular conflicts about it. But having the principle of not wasting money, allows us to work towards it together, not against each other. Since I first mentioned it to him he's been pretty good about it .. I'd say 70% of the time I get up in the morning the lights are off. When they are left on, I understand that he probably got really tired, or was distracted by something he was doing and forgot. I know he's not leaving them on just to piss me off. I'll usually mention sometime the next day that I noticed a lot of lights on when I got up and could please try and remember to turn them off. That's it - no hassle, no shame. Last night around 1:30am when I woke up and wandered back to my bed from my daughter's I noticed that many lights were on (we have an open staircase) and I gently called to him. He was in the TV room and came immediately. I asked if he could please do the rounds and turn off the lights in the rooms he wasn't in, and he did right away without a word or a huff and went back to what he was doing. Just living together in peace. It made me smile while I went back to sleep.
I still think regularly about a conversation I had with my mother a few months ago ... I think it was her first real glimpse that we were doing something quite different. I was telling her how we discuss and explain things with the kids (principles), and she said that there must be something they have to do just because I say so (rules). I said no, if there was something I would like the kids to do, I ask them and explain why .. there is always a reason for something, so just tell them. If they choose not to do it, I know they have considered what I said and they usually let me know their reasons (and they are usually quite understandable from their POV). She tried a couple of examples, and I explained what I'd say to the kids, then in a bit of frustration she gave up and said she couldn't think of anything right then. And she hasn't brought it up since.
Just for completeness (I don't think we got this far in our conversation), if there's no real choice for the kids (like having to get someone somewhere), I explain that too and let them know I understand that they really don't want to go, but that I appreciate them doing it anyway. And I try to show it by doing something extra of their choice, either while we're out or later when we get home. This almost always works out without great anger or tantrums, because they trust me and know that I have always tried my best to minimize the times they would have to do something they don't like just because there is no other choice. That's the principle I have of trying to live life without having a negative impact on the people around me, not the rule of if I say you have do something, you do it.
The concept of rules vs. principles has really helped me shift my thinking. It's given me a good place to start when thinking situations through. Whenever I think that there is something I want my kids (or my husband for that matter) to do, I ask myself why? And when I get to the root of why, I can either explain it well to them, or come to the realization that it really has nothing to do with them, just some holdover of schoolish expectations, and I can let it go.
Pam L.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joseph (he's 11) has been staying up late for a couple months. We have asked him to please turn off the lights before he goes to sleep. But it's not a "rule". If the rule was to be allowed to stay up late, you must turn off all the lights before you go to sleep, we'd be having regular conflicts about it. But having the principle of not wasting money, allows us to work towards it together, not against each other. Since I first mentioned it to him he's been pretty good about it .. I'd say 70% of the time I get up in the morning the lights are off. When they are left on, I understand that he probably got really tired, or was distracted by something he was doing and forgot. I know he's not leaving them on just to piss me off. I'll usually mention sometime the next day that I noticed a lot of lights on when I got up and could please try and remember to turn them off. That's it - no hassle, no shame. Last night around 1:30am when I woke up and wandered back to my bed from my daughter's I noticed that many lights were on (we have an open staircase) and I gently called to him. He was in the TV room and came immediately. I asked if he could please do the rounds and turn off the lights in the rooms he wasn't in, and he did right away without a word or a huff and went back to what he was doing. Just living together in peace. It made me smile while I went back to sleep.
I still think regularly about a conversation I had with my mother a few months ago ... I think it was her first real glimpse that we were doing something quite different. I was telling her how we discuss and explain things with the kids (principles), and she said that there must be something they have to do just because I say so (rules). I said no, if there was something I would like the kids to do, I ask them and explain why .. there is always a reason for something, so just tell them. If they choose not to do it, I know they have considered what I said and they usually let me know their reasons (and they are usually quite understandable from their POV). She tried a couple of examples, and I explained what I'd say to the kids, then in a bit of frustration she gave up and said she couldn't think of anything right then. And she hasn't brought it up since.
Just for completeness (I don't think we got this far in our conversation), if there's no real choice for the kids (like having to get someone somewhere), I explain that too and let them know I understand that they really don't want to go, but that I appreciate them doing it anyway. And I try to show it by doing something extra of their choice, either while we're out or later when we get home. This almost always works out without great anger or tantrums, because they trust me and know that I have always tried my best to minimize the times they would have to do something they don't like just because there is no other choice. That's the principle I have of trying to live life without having a negative impact on the people around me, not the rule of if I say you have do something, you do it.
The concept of rules vs. principles has really helped me shift my thinking. It's given me a good place to start when thinking situations through. Whenever I think that there is something I want my kids (or my husband for that matter) to do, I ask myself why? And when I get to the root of why, I can either explain it well to them, or come to the realization that it really has nothing to do with them, just some holdover of schoolish expectations, and I can let it go.
Pam L.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
Elizabeth writes;
As for your daughter, if she wants more structure, why not? you're still following her lead and wishes. It may be something she needs. Structure doesn't have to mean buying a curriculum but maybe more worksheets or a set time to sit down and do things?
Dawn (in eastern Canada)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I could use some help figuring out how to do more academics to keep him happy, but as >little as possible to keep us happy. Sarah does like workbooks and she'll do them in bits >and spurts. I have to show a portfolio at the end of the year but I'm not really worried >about pulling that together.Husbands. Hmmph. My husband occasionally wants our daughter to do more schooly stuff but it's then that I remind him that he flat out refused to read some of the unschooling books I've brought home saying, "I trust you." You don't need to appease him if the cost is sabotaging your unschooling, you need to insist he educate himself. In my opinion anyway. :) his attitudes could undermine what you're attempting to unschool so why cater to them? Granted he has his say but if he's not bothering to educate himself as much as you are, does it carry the same weight? I'm assuming he hasn't so my apologies if he has.
>
>Elizabeth in MA
As for your daughter, if she wants more structure, why not? you're still following her lead and wishes. It may be something she needs. Structure doesn't have to mean buying a curriculum but maybe more worksheets or a set time to sit down and do things?
Dawn (in eastern Canada)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/03 2:31:46 PM, Wishbone@... writes:
<< You don't need to appease him if the cost is sabotaging your unschooling,
you need to insist he educate himself. In my opinion anyway. :) his attitudes
could undermine what you're attempting to unschool so why cater to them? >>
I agree.
I'm unwilling to make my kids feel a lot worse for life just to make my
husband feel a little better for a short while.
Give him some reading and if he refuses to read, he's bowed off the committee
to decide how to homeschool (in my thinking).
Sandra
<< You don't need to appease him if the cost is sabotaging your unschooling,
you need to insist he educate himself. In my opinion anyway. :) his attitudes
could undermine what you're attempting to unschool so why cater to them? >>
I agree.
I'm unwilling to make my kids feel a lot worse for life just to make my
husband feel a little better for a short while.
Give him some reading and if he refuses to read, he's bowed off the committee
to decide how to homeschool (in my thinking).
Sandra
[email protected]
mamabethuscg@... writes:
begin to "do" (inflict) even a small amount of traditional instruction on
your children just for Dad's sake.
Finally I figured it would be better to unschool Dad, which it has
worked pretty well. We all found ways to suck him into what the kids already are
excited about, so he had the chance to support and be involved in these
activities, and could realize in the process how much was happening of value.
Before we stumbled on the unschooling-of-Dad approach, we had a couple
of spectacular disasters because Dad was really pushing some "academics" in
one area, arithmetic (he was worried because our first child, a brilliant,
creative little girl, didn't want to do any.)
The recent chores discussion here reminded me how trying to do that
little bit of "academics" almost turned our happy unschooling into a daily chore to
be dreaded and math into a major nightmare. WHAT was I thinking?? Well, that
maybe some academics in our unschooling would keep Dad happy . . . JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I could use some help figuring out how to do more academics to keep himOne bit of advice would be not to make the mistake I did, and actually
> happy, but as little as possible to keep us happy.
begin to "do" (inflict) even a small amount of traditional instruction on
your children just for Dad's sake.
Finally I figured it would be better to unschool Dad, which it has
worked pretty well. We all found ways to suck him into what the kids already are
excited about, so he had the chance to support and be involved in these
activities, and could realize in the process how much was happening of value.
Before we stumbled on the unschooling-of-Dad approach, we had a couple
of spectacular disasters because Dad was really pushing some "academics" in
one area, arithmetic (he was worried because our first child, a brilliant,
creative little girl, didn't want to do any.)
The recent chores discussion here reminded me how trying to do that
little bit of "academics" almost turned our happy unschooling into a daily chore to
be dreaded and math into a major nightmare. WHAT was I thinking?? Well, that
maybe some academics in our unschooling would keep Dad happy . . . JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>Or maybe she just needs help to develop her own structure, one that works
> As for your daughter, if she wants more structure, why not? you're
> still following her lead and wishes. It may be something she needs.
> Structure doesn't have to mean buying a curriculum but maybe more
> worksheets or a set time to sit down and do things?
for her. Structure doesn't always need to be top down.
Tia
Robyn Coburn
<<Do others here have contributions of examples for me? Thanks in advance.
Sandra, the crazed collector>>
This thread is giving me an opening for some thoughts that I have been
having since the conference.
I was sorry that the Rules vs Principles presentation was so short - it
seemed like we only scratched the surface of this idea. It was one that I
had trouble coming to grips with. Not having rules is the easy part.
Articulating principles seemed really difficult. I kept believing that I
needed to do in life, what we were doing as an exercise at the conference -
translate every rule into the jargon of principles. I fear the exercise at
the conference may have led new or considering unschoolers to feel just as
Sandra's friend does - "it's just rules expressed more gently". I know
there's a difference, but we didn't seem to have enough time to really get
into it that day. I hope we hear more from Ben at the next one.
I mentioned to Ben after the presentation that one idea about the difference
was that Rules often seem to be aimed at the children, whereas Principles
were for the benefit of the entire family.
In the language of Recovery, Spiritual Principles are single words, the
opposite of character defects. Words like Honesty, Generosity, Courtesy,
Compassion and Kindness. Keeping children safe might be part of the
principle of Security or Confidence. Once I was reminded of the single words
concept, it became much easier to grasp principles instead of rules. I
stopped thinking of them as needing to be grand mission statements defining
the family's sweeping purpose (image of Scarlett O'Hara holding her muddy
fist to the sky - "As God is my witness...") and stopped feeling like I was
just missing the idea.
In dealing with Jayn, I try to give her reasonable and likely scenarios in
the form of "If you do x, y or z may happen". She often replies with "I'm
going to do it anyway". If it is a question of safety, I try to refrain from
the almost useless and sure to lead to a fall, "Be careful", and say
something specific like "I'm worried that ." or "That has a really pointy
end". Sometimes my struggle is to avoid merely "because I don't like it" as
the reason she should desist. I have to examine why I want it to stop - am I
tired, pre-mentrual, excessively worried about the opinion of some neighbor,
momentarily locked in a childhood moment revisited? One of my fears is that,
in the absence of punishment (she has never been punished), she will see my
disapproval as the punishment. Still a work in progress.
Sometimes if I am bugged I leave the room. For example: Jayn loves to pour
water out of the tub onto the floor of the bathroom or throw it around. This
leaves a mess that is both a pain to clean up, and dangerously slippery, but
I think it bugs me for some other subconscious reason that I haven't been
able to unearth. Jayn often won't stop when I ask her to, and it seems
punitive to pull her out of the tub as I have done in the past. If I made a
"no pouring" rule, almost every bath would turn into a war. Instead I
surrendered to her desire to experiment with water. I'm so much happier. I
put down some extra towels as bathmats - this takes care of the principle of
a safe environment (Comfort and Security); I move the magazines etc out of
harm's way - this takes care of the principle of caring for other people's
things (Consideration); and I wait within earshot, in the next room - this
takes care of the principle of self care (can't think of "single word" right
now). The bonus reward is listening to her enjoy the fantasy play with her
dolls, cups, fish, other toys and kitchen utensils. Sometimes she says she
is lonely and wants me in there. She gets to choose not to splash me where I
am sitting if she wants me in the room with her. I remind her she can throw
the water at the wall by the tub instead. Of course I could also purchase a
shower curtain for the tub, which could move the play in a whole new
direction.
I know I have more on RvsP - the story of last week at Dance class, and
James' one rule with Jayn. I want to read some more first.
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra, the crazed collector>>
This thread is giving me an opening for some thoughts that I have been
having since the conference.
I was sorry that the Rules vs Principles presentation was so short - it
seemed like we only scratched the surface of this idea. It was one that I
had trouble coming to grips with. Not having rules is the easy part.
Articulating principles seemed really difficult. I kept believing that I
needed to do in life, what we were doing as an exercise at the conference -
translate every rule into the jargon of principles. I fear the exercise at
the conference may have led new or considering unschoolers to feel just as
Sandra's friend does - "it's just rules expressed more gently". I know
there's a difference, but we didn't seem to have enough time to really get
into it that day. I hope we hear more from Ben at the next one.
I mentioned to Ben after the presentation that one idea about the difference
was that Rules often seem to be aimed at the children, whereas Principles
were for the benefit of the entire family.
In the language of Recovery, Spiritual Principles are single words, the
opposite of character defects. Words like Honesty, Generosity, Courtesy,
Compassion and Kindness. Keeping children safe might be part of the
principle of Security or Confidence. Once I was reminded of the single words
concept, it became much easier to grasp principles instead of rules. I
stopped thinking of them as needing to be grand mission statements defining
the family's sweeping purpose (image of Scarlett O'Hara holding her muddy
fist to the sky - "As God is my witness...") and stopped feeling like I was
just missing the idea.
In dealing with Jayn, I try to give her reasonable and likely scenarios in
the form of "If you do x, y or z may happen". She often replies with "I'm
going to do it anyway". If it is a question of safety, I try to refrain from
the almost useless and sure to lead to a fall, "Be careful", and say
something specific like "I'm worried that ." or "That has a really pointy
end". Sometimes my struggle is to avoid merely "because I don't like it" as
the reason she should desist. I have to examine why I want it to stop - am I
tired, pre-mentrual, excessively worried about the opinion of some neighbor,
momentarily locked in a childhood moment revisited? One of my fears is that,
in the absence of punishment (she has never been punished), she will see my
disapproval as the punishment. Still a work in progress.
Sometimes if I am bugged I leave the room. For example: Jayn loves to pour
water out of the tub onto the floor of the bathroom or throw it around. This
leaves a mess that is both a pain to clean up, and dangerously slippery, but
I think it bugs me for some other subconscious reason that I haven't been
able to unearth. Jayn often won't stop when I ask her to, and it seems
punitive to pull her out of the tub as I have done in the past. If I made a
"no pouring" rule, almost every bath would turn into a war. Instead I
surrendered to her desire to experiment with water. I'm so much happier. I
put down some extra towels as bathmats - this takes care of the principle of
a safe environment (Comfort and Security); I move the magazines etc out of
harm's way - this takes care of the principle of caring for other people's
things (Consideration); and I wait within earshot, in the next room - this
takes care of the principle of self care (can't think of "single word" right
now). The bonus reward is listening to her enjoy the fantasy play with her
dolls, cups, fish, other toys and kitchen utensils. Sometimes she says she
is lonely and wants me in there. She gets to choose not to splash me where I
am sitting if she wants me in the room with her. I remind her she can throw
the water at the wall by the tub instead. Of course I could also purchase a
shower curtain for the tub, which could move the play in a whole new
direction.
I know I have more on RvsP - the story of last week at Dance class, and
James' one rule with Jayn. I want to read some more first.
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
Well, Paul is in the military so he isn't even home much. It makes it rather difficult sometimes because I do things so differently when he isn't home that sometimes...dare I say it...I think it would be easier to be a single parent!
Elizabeth
Dawn Adams <Wishbone@...> wrote:
Elizabeth writes;
As for your daughter, if she wants more structure, why not? you're still following her lead and wishes. It may be something she needs. Structure doesn't have to mean buying a curriculum but maybe more worksheets or a set time to sit down and do things?
Dawn (in eastern Canada)
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Elizabeth
Dawn Adams <Wishbone@...> wrote:
Elizabeth writes;
>I could use some help figuring out how to do more academics to keep him happy, but as >little as possible to keep us happy. Sarah does like workbooks and she'll do them in bits >and spurts. I have to show a portfolio at the end of the year but I'm not really worried >about pulling that together.Husbands. Hmmph. My husband occasionally wants our daughter to do more schooly stuff but it's then that I remind him that he flat out refused to read some of the unschooling books I've brought home saying, "I trust you." You don't need to appease him if the cost is sabotaging your unschooling, you need to insist he educate himself. In my opinion anyway. :) his attitudes could undermine what you're attempting to unschool so why cater to them? Granted he has his say but if he's not bothering to educate himself as much as you are, does it carry the same weight? I'm assuming he hasn't so my apologies if he has.
>
>Elizabeth in MA
As for your daughter, if she wants more structure, why not? you're still following her lead and wishes. It may be something she needs. Structure doesn't have to mean buying a curriculum but maybe more worksheets or a set time to sit down and do things?
Dawn (in eastern Canada)
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kayb85
If you share this example with your friend, he might ask something
like, "And what if after you suggest that to him he never takes your
advice?"
Sheila
like, "And what if after you suggest that to him he never takes your
advice?"
Sheila
> One more story before I leave this for others to analyze or expandupon: the
> dog's water dish is in the kitchen, and for the third time in aweek, it was
> not so clean and not so full (dry or nearly dry with dissolving drydog food
> in it). I picked it up to rinse and fill it, and Marty (14, andthe dog owner
> of record) was in the room. I thought quickly through some optionsof what
> to say. I have little pulldown menus like the Terminatorsometimes. Not
> always, but sometimes.you might
>
> This time I think I picked a good one.
>
> I said "Maybe you're changing the dog's water every day, but if so
> want to do it twice a day."didn't
>
> I liked that one. It was useful, yet subtle. I wasn't mean and he
> feel "told." I didn't say "never" and I didn't say "always," Ijust said
> "more."
>
> Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/03 11:17:41 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< If you share this example with your friend, he might ask something
like, "And what if after you suggest that to him he never takes your
advice?" >>
I'd just have to say "Then I wasn't verbally persuasive enough."
Jeff knows Marty really well. He's been around his whole life, has
entrusted him with his house to housesit, and was not disappointed. SCA-wise, he's
thinking of making Marty his squire. So realistically, he wouldn't ask that
question. We've camped together lots, and Marty's always the most helpful of the
kids, and now that he's adult-size, he's extremely useful with tents and
rope-related things.
So the idea that Marty would casually or pointedly refuse to give the dog
more water wouldn't come up in this particular real-life case.
In theory, it could. With people new to unschooling sites they always ask
those really stunning questions like "What if he just never wants to learn to
count?" or "What if they choose not to learn to read?"
But my personal real answer to "And what if after you suggest that to him he
never takes your advice?" would be "Then I'll keep the water dish clean and
full and try not to resent the kid." It's not realistic, though, in my real
family.
Sandra
<< If you share this example with your friend, he might ask something
like, "And what if after you suggest that to him he never takes your
advice?" >>
I'd just have to say "Then I wasn't verbally persuasive enough."
Jeff knows Marty really well. He's been around his whole life, has
entrusted him with his house to housesit, and was not disappointed. SCA-wise, he's
thinking of making Marty his squire. So realistically, he wouldn't ask that
question. We've camped together lots, and Marty's always the most helpful of the
kids, and now that he's adult-size, he's extremely useful with tents and
rope-related things.
So the idea that Marty would casually or pointedly refuse to give the dog
more water wouldn't come up in this particular real-life case.
In theory, it could. With people new to unschooling sites they always ask
those really stunning questions like "What if he just never wants to learn to
count?" or "What if they choose not to learn to read?"
But my personal real answer to "And what if after you suggest that to him he
never takes your advice?" would be "Then I'll keep the water dish clean and
full and try not to resent the kid." It's not realistic, though, in my real
family.
Sandra
Tim and Maureen
Good thots, IMHO. I think people get over-ruled when they are constantly overruled. We used to find ways to argue the rules in school, but teachers/administrators just exercised their power over us, keeping us "in the spirit of the rule." Then we all went kinda passive. Passion-less. "Just jump thru the hoops..."
I see my kids and now you tell me your kids are pursuing life on their own terms. That has got to be the ultimate aim of this "venture," no?
My thots
Tim T
In a message dated 11/23/03 9:35:03 AM, tmthomas@... writes:
<< Jail, military, school - all very rule bound. >>
-=-I think one reason they don't mind following rules is that they haven't
already "had it up to here" with rules...
-=-So here I have kids who can sleep as long as they want, who set their alarms
and get up; who have all kinds of clothes and no rules, who dress well and
appropriately to the situation; who don't have to come home but they DO come home.
Something important is happening.
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I see my kids and now you tell me your kids are pursuing life on their own terms. That has got to be the ultimate aim of this "venture," no?
My thots
Tim T
In a message dated 11/23/03 9:35:03 AM, tmthomas@... writes:
<< Jail, military, school - all very rule bound. >>
-=-I think one reason they don't mind following rules is that they haven't
already "had it up to here" with rules...
-=-So here I have kids who can sleep as long as they want, who set their alarms
and get up; who have all kinds of clothes and no rules, who dress well and
appropriately to the situation; who don't have to come home but they DO come home.
Something important is happening.
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v_malott
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Roberts
<mamabethuscg@y...> wrote:
willing to learn about unschooling or to observe your children
learning in a real, though to him unconventional, way, then you
should discuss with him that since he's not home a lot, this should
be left in your hands.
As far as your older child wanting to return to structure, there may
be more to that than just a desire to learn academic subjects. You
have a new baby, you're dealing with postpartum depression on top of
a chronic depression problem, you're experiencing other health
problems that necessitate trips to the doctor, and dad's away a lot
of the time. Maybe this desire for more structure is just her way of
voicing another need.
I've been through this with my own young children, and it is my
oldest who sometimes feels left out because my brain, body, and
spirit are spent in many different directions. If there were a way
to get some one-on-one with her, that might be the solution instead
of returning to structured academics (I just see *that* as
exascerbating the depression...BTDT). Maybe choose a project that
the two of you can work on, or take her out to lunch (I know, this is
sometimes difficult with many young children), or explore something
that fascinates her. It's worth a try, and you're fostering a
connection with your daughter that will last for a lifetime.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with playing with workbooks, too,
esp. if that's her desire. My son (7) just did what I consider to be
about a month's worth of math work in two afternoons. He is great
with mental math, a much more valuable skill IMO, but wanted to do
some stuff on paper. So, he came across a workbook I got nearly 3
years ago and just plowed through it. He asked how to work some of
the harder problems that involved carrying and borrowing, and then
practiced the rest and when he was satisfied with his work, he
stopped and hasn't looked back. I asked if he would like workbooks
for other things, like word games (which he loves to play when we go
to Longhorn Steakhouse) and such, that he could play with when he
felt like it, and he said yes.
Valerie
<mamabethuscg@y...> wrote:
> ANYWAY I think I'm rambling...things are not really going good hereI agree with what others have said here regarding DH. If he's not
> unschooling wise in that my husband wants us to return to more
> structured academics and actually so does Sarah.
willing to learn about unschooling or to observe your children
learning in a real, though to him unconventional, way, then you
should discuss with him that since he's not home a lot, this should
be left in your hands.
As far as your older child wanting to return to structure, there may
be more to that than just a desire to learn academic subjects. You
have a new baby, you're dealing with postpartum depression on top of
a chronic depression problem, you're experiencing other health
problems that necessitate trips to the doctor, and dad's away a lot
of the time. Maybe this desire for more structure is just her way of
voicing another need.
I've been through this with my own young children, and it is my
oldest who sometimes feels left out because my brain, body, and
spirit are spent in many different directions. If there were a way
to get some one-on-one with her, that might be the solution instead
of returning to structured academics (I just see *that* as
exascerbating the depression...BTDT). Maybe choose a project that
the two of you can work on, or take her out to lunch (I know, this is
sometimes difficult with many young children), or explore something
that fascinates her. It's worth a try, and you're fostering a
connection with your daughter that will last for a lifetime.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with playing with workbooks, too,
esp. if that's her desire. My son (7) just did what I consider to be
about a month's worth of math work in two afternoons. He is great
with mental math, a much more valuable skill IMO, but wanted to do
some stuff on paper. So, he came across a workbook I got nearly 3
years ago and just plowed through it. He asked how to work some of
the harder problems that involved carrying and borrowing, and then
practiced the rest and when he was satisfied with his work, he
stopped and hasn't looked back. I asked if he would like workbooks
for other things, like word games (which he loves to play when we go
to Longhorn Steakhouse) and such, that he could play with when he
felt like it, and he said yes.
Valerie
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/24/03 9:17:35 AM, vmalott@... writes:
<< my husband wants us to return to more
e-mail? It might satisfy her urge, but she'd still be at home. It might be
fun or it might not be, but it wouldn't involve all the clothing travel expense
and exposure of school itself, nor involve you the mom in the
teaching/organizing/approving of stuff.
Sandra
<< my husband wants us to return to more
> structured academics and actually so does Sarah. >>What about one online course, where you pay some money and she does work by
e-mail? It might satisfy her urge, but she'd still be at home. It might be
fun or it might not be, but it wouldn't involve all the clothing travel expense
and exposure of school itself, nor involve you the mom in the
teaching/organizing/approving of stuff.
Sandra
Elizabeth Roberts
Thanks. Actually, Paul and I have talked quite a bit about unschooling. In theory, he totally agrees with it. I can understand though that he's still in the "schooling" mode of academics. He says that he wants more academics done (academics being traditional school type work) but then says he trusts me to keep things going so that she isn't "behind" or anything and that he knows I have it all under control.
I think it could very well be that Sarah is needing more attention. She normally wakes up before anyone else in the morning. I asked her to start coming into my room to snuggle with me more in the mornings rather than heading straight to the living room for some televsion (she actually prefers educational shows like Between the Lions and Magic Schoolbus!).
I'm going to take her out for icecream wednesday night, just us. Start looking to do that more. I used to take her twice a month on payday to a little icecream shop that overlooked King's Bay (Crystal River) but we lived in Florida and it was easier then! But I figured I can at least take her to a local Friendly's for a sundae even if it doesn't have half the view that little icecream shop had had!
Anyway, thanks for the reminder to give her more attention. I do think that's more of what she is needing than academics - everytime we do anything schoolish it works for a couple of days and then we end up in fights about it. Particularly if it involves handwriting. I don't mean practicing, my mean writing by hand.
Elizabeth in MA
v_malott <vmalott@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Roberts
<mamabethuscg@y...> wrote:
willing to learn about unschooling or to observe your children
learning in a real, though to him unconventional, way, then you
should discuss with him that since he's not home a lot, this should
be left in your hands.
As far as your older child wanting to return to structure, there may
be more to that than just a desire to learn academic subjects. You
have a new baby, you're dealing with postpartum depression on top of
a chronic depression problem, you're experiencing other health
problems that necessitate trips to the doctor, and dad's away a lot
of the time. Maybe this desire for more structure is just her way of
voicing another need.
I've been through this with my own young children, and it is my
oldest who sometimes feels left out because my brain, body, and
spirit are spent in many different directions. If there were a way
to get some one-on-one with her, that might be the solution instead
of returning to structured academics (I just see *that* as
exascerbating the depression...BTDT). Maybe choose a project that
the two of you can work on, or take her out to lunch (I know, this is
sometimes difficult with many young children), or explore something
that fascinates her. It's worth a try, and you're fostering a
connection with your daughter that will last for a lifetime.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with playing with workbooks, too,
esp. if that's her desire. My son (7) just did what I consider to be
about a month's worth of math work in two afternoons. He is great
with mental math, a much more valuable skill IMO, but wanted to do
some stuff on paper. So, he came across a workbook I got nearly 3
years ago and just plowed through it. He asked how to work some of
the harder problems that involved carrying and borrowing, and then
practiced the rest and when he was satisfied with his work, he
stopped and hasn't looked back. I asked if he would like workbooks
for other things, like word games (which he loves to play when we go
to Longhorn Steakhouse) and such, that he could play with when he
felt like it, and he said yes.
Valerie
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think it could very well be that Sarah is needing more attention. She normally wakes up before anyone else in the morning. I asked her to start coming into my room to snuggle with me more in the mornings rather than heading straight to the living room for some televsion (she actually prefers educational shows like Between the Lions and Magic Schoolbus!).
I'm going to take her out for icecream wednesday night, just us. Start looking to do that more. I used to take her twice a month on payday to a little icecream shop that overlooked King's Bay (Crystal River) but we lived in Florida and it was easier then! But I figured I can at least take her to a local Friendly's for a sundae even if it doesn't have half the view that little icecream shop had had!
Anyway, thanks for the reminder to give her more attention. I do think that's more of what she is needing than academics - everytime we do anything schoolish it works for a couple of days and then we end up in fights about it. Particularly if it involves handwriting. I don't mean practicing, my mean writing by hand.
Elizabeth in MA
v_malott <vmalott@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Roberts
<mamabethuscg@y...> wrote:
> ANYWAY I think I'm rambling...things are not really going good hereI agree with what others have said here regarding DH. If he's not
> unschooling wise in that my husband wants us to return to more
> structured academics and actually so does Sarah.
willing to learn about unschooling or to observe your children
learning in a real, though to him unconventional, way, then you
should discuss with him that since he's not home a lot, this should
be left in your hands.
As far as your older child wanting to return to structure, there may
be more to that than just a desire to learn academic subjects. You
have a new baby, you're dealing with postpartum depression on top of
a chronic depression problem, you're experiencing other health
problems that necessitate trips to the doctor, and dad's away a lot
of the time. Maybe this desire for more structure is just her way of
voicing another need.
I've been through this with my own young children, and it is my
oldest who sometimes feels left out because my brain, body, and
spirit are spent in many different directions. If there were a way
to get some one-on-one with her, that might be the solution instead
of returning to structured academics (I just see *that* as
exascerbating the depression...BTDT). Maybe choose a project that
the two of you can work on, or take her out to lunch (I know, this is
sometimes difficult with many young children), or explore something
that fascinates her. It's worth a try, and you're fostering a
connection with your daughter that will last for a lifetime.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with playing with workbooks, too,
esp. if that's her desire. My son (7) just did what I consider to be
about a month's worth of math work in two afternoons. He is great
with mental math, a much more valuable skill IMO, but wanted to do
some stuff on paper. So, he came across a workbook I got nearly 3
years ago and just plowed through it. He asked how to work some of
the harder problems that involved carrying and borrowing, and then
practiced the rest and when he was satisfied with his work, he
stopped and hasn't looked back. I asked if he would like workbooks
for other things, like word games (which he loves to play when we go
to Longhorn Steakhouse) and such, that he could play with when he
felt like it, and he said yes.
Valerie
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Elizabeth Roberts
No money for anything like that. However, I have planned for a couple educational type games for the computer for her for Christmas, I may just go ahead and get them early. She does enjoy being on the computer.
Elizabeth in MA
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 11/24/03 9:17:35 AM, vmalott@... writes:
<< my husband wants us to return to more
e-mail? It might satisfy her urge, but she'd still be at home. It might be
fun or it might not be, but it wouldn't involve all the clothing travel expense
and exposure of school itself, nor involve you the mom in the
teaching/organizing/approving of stuff.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth in MA
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 11/24/03 9:17:35 AM, vmalott@... writes:
<< my husband wants us to return to more
> structured academics and actually so does Sarah. >>What about one online course, where you pay some money and she does work by
e-mail? It might satisfy her urge, but she'd still be at home. It might be
fun or it might not be, but it wouldn't involve all the clothing travel expense
and exposure of school itself, nor involve you the mom in the
teaching/organizing/approving of stuff.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catherine aceto
Not a concrete example, alas, but from the perspective of someone who spent nearly a decade as a corporate lawyer -- "rules" are things you get around by clever thinking. But who would want to "get around" a principle? If you stop believing in the principle, you might change it -- but it isn't something that you try to circumvent.
I think that focussing on principles helps me to behave appropriately. If I believe as a principle is that "we should be kind to each other", then my reaction to Lydia tossing a piece of apple at me in a moment of anger is different than if the "rule" was "we don't throw things."
Principles also leave more room for children to learn to make choices. If the principle is that we try not to break things, then maybe she can roll a ball in the dining room, but not throw it, or throw it gently, or throw a softer ball, or throw a harder ball in a different room. She can decide what it is that she feels like doing, within the constraint of not breaking the china or denting the teapots -- rather than having a "rule" like "no throwing balls in the house" (which would prompt my inner lawyer (and hers!) to argue over what is a "ball," or what is "throwing" -- or what "is" "is."
-Cat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think that focussing on principles helps me to behave appropriately. If I believe as a principle is that "we should be kind to each other", then my reaction to Lydia tossing a piece of apple at me in a moment of anger is different than if the "rule" was "we don't throw things."
Principles also leave more room for children to learn to make choices. If the principle is that we try not to break things, then maybe she can roll a ball in the dining room, but not throw it, or throw it gently, or throw a softer ball, or throw a harder ball in a different room. She can decide what it is that she feels like doing, within the constraint of not breaking the china or denting the teapots -- rather than having a "rule" like "no throwing balls in the house" (which would prompt my inner lawyer (and hers!) to argue over what is a "ball," or what is "throwing" -- or what "is" "is."
-Cat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/24/2003 9:59:37 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mamabethuscg@... writes:
No money for anything like that.
----------
There are online classes for $25 and probably some are free.
If she were in school, they would be saying "we need $10" and "she needs the
following school/lab/PE supplies" every week or two.
Some things cost money. An online course for a family where the husband is
saying "more structure" could kill two birds with one stone: Dad chills,
daughter knows whether she DOES want more structure or not, she learns more what
it's like to follow others' requirements, etc.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamabethuscg@... writes:
No money for anything like that.
----------
There are online classes for $25 and probably some are free.
If she were in school, they would be saying "we need $10" and "she needs the
following school/lab/PE supplies" every week or two.
Some things cost money. An online course for a family where the husband is
saying "more structure" could kill two birds with one stone: Dad chills,
daughter knows whether she DOES want more structure or not, she learns more what
it's like to follow others' requirements, etc.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
Could you point me in the direction of some please?
MamaBeth
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 11/24/2003 9:59:37 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mamabethuscg@... writes:
No money for anything like that.
----------
There are online classes for $25 and probably some are free.
If she were in school, they would be saying "we need $10" and "she needs the
following school/lab/PE supplies" every week or two.
Some things cost money. An online course for a family where the husband is
saying "more structure" could kill two birds with one stone: Dad chills,
daughter knows whether she DOES want more structure or not, she learns more what
it's like to follow others' requirements, etc.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MamaBeth
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 11/24/2003 9:59:37 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mamabethuscg@... writes:
No money for anything like that.
----------
There are online classes for $25 and probably some are free.
If she were in school, they would be saying "we need $10" and "she needs the
following school/lab/PE supplies" every week or two.
Some things cost money. An online course for a family where the husband is
saying "more structure" could kill two birds with one stone: Dad chills,
daughter knows whether she DOES want more structure or not, she learns more what
it's like to follow others' requirements, etc.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]