Deborah Lewis

***There are several who consider judicious application to be 'creepy'
was that
the phrase used?***

I used the word creepy because I was afraid you'd think "deranged" was
too ostentatious.
But, I said blaming a child for a parent's loss of control was creepy.
To be fair though, I also find the "judicious application" of corporal
punishment (translation: Premeditated assault) creepy, as well.

***I would rather apply a thought out punishment for unacceptable
behavior than
be given to flights of animal rage...***

And there are more choices than either of those. There is the highly
evolved choice to not hit at all, ever. Not in anger, and not in cold
blood.

***You (again meaning the listers who have responded) don't seem to
understand
that as adults we have hopefully already been trained and don't need
physical
reminders ...***

And you (meaning you) don't seem to understand that some of us have given
a great deal of thought to living peacefully and respectfully with
children and have rejected the commonly held notion children need to be
trained like lab rats.

We do understand unschooling. We understand hitting. We understand
human nature. Some of us even read that same biology book of yours. We
also understand that everyday we can do better.

I'm forty. I know stuff even if I use the word "creepy." Somewhere in
my boxes of Tick toys and wind up bouncing cats I have a little piece of
paper says I'm half smart. Does that matter? Not if I can't think of
ways to live with my kid without hurting him.

I have a child who is eleven, who has never been to school, and who has
never been hit. He's nice. People like him. They never say he can't
come over, they never say he's an animal, they say he's the nicest friend
their kids have. Two people on my block have given him keys to their
houses so he can take care of pets while they're away. Does that
matter? In a profoundly world changing way.

Does it matter that you've typed twice the words as you needed to in the
hope of impressing us with your intelligence so your defense of spanking
would sound well thought out? We've heard that stuff here before.
We've heard most every argument and most every excuse and spanking is
still a big person hitting a little one.

Deb L

Betsy

**I used the word creepy because I was afraid you'd think "deranged" was
too ostentatious. **

Hee!

Thanks, Deb, for putting the "fun" back in pf_unschooling. <eg>


Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/22/03 7:03:17 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< I'm forty. I know stuff even if I use the word "creepy." Somewhere in
my boxes of Tick toys and wind up bouncing cats I have a little piece of
paper says I'm half smart. Does that matter? Not if I can't think of
ways to live with my kid without hurting him. >>

Thank you for trusting this list with personal information like that.
It helps me understand you better, and to have more confidence in your advice.

If a thousand people give a thousand pieces of advice, I DO want to know
which of them live in happy homes where people are smiling and laughing and
playing with Tick Action Figures (or whatever they have that's fun), and which ones
are twitchy, paranoid people whose kids blow them off (or whatever they have
that's evidence that they didn't have any special ideas or convictions this
time around).

There's not a policy that people have to introduce themselves before they
post, and on a list with this many people coming and going, it's FINE that people
come and lurk, or give short answers without credentials, or long happy
answers without credentials, but when someone comes raging in being merrily
disruptive, it's good to know why they think they have the right to tell us we
probably just haven't thought too much. Of all the groups of people who have
thought, this group has thought more than its fair share, on average, and that's
what makes it so great. Lots of people thinking lots of thoughts and sharing
their real lives.

Sandra

Deborah Lewis

***Thank you for trusting this list with personal information like that.
It helps me understand you better, and to have more confidence in your
advice.***

Anyone can come to my house and meet my kid and talk to him about
unschooling. Anyone can see my extensive dust collection, my stupid
dog, my hideous, pinching pigeon. That's all stuff I've talked about
here. I'm a real person, with a real kid. If I could make my scanner
work I'd put his picture up.

I don't know how I could help anyone thinking about unschooling if they
couldn't see into my life and as much as it's possible from an e-mail
list, see that the words I type are lived out here first, with a genuine
kid.

I'm in Deer Lodge, Montana. Anyone can come and visit.

We played at the river yesterday. We threw rocks at floating ice chunks
until we couldn't feel our fingers any more. We had a snowball fight.
We went sledding. We watched "Attack of the Crab Monsters" and read
about dinosaurs. We played Master Labyrinth and chess. We stood on our
heads. We made peanut butter and bird seed surprise for the Flickers.

Today we're going to Grandma's house. She's making fresh tortillas and
we'll visit with Dylan's uncle because he's flying back to Anchorage on
Monday. We'll probably watch a movie there, too. I'll make a pan of
fudge to take along.

My real and happy kid says a lot more about unschooling than I could ever
convey by analyzing human nature. If I'm afraid to talk about my real
unschooling life, how will I single-handedly change the world for the
better? <g> I've printed out my super hero license and I've sewn my Tick
suit. Now, Evildoers, Eat My Justice!

Deb L

wifetovegman2002

--- In [email protected], Deborah Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
> I've printed out my super hero license and I've sewn my Tick
> suit. Now, Evildoers, Eat My Justice!
>
> Deb L


Deborah,

Aren't you supposed to yell "SPOON!" at some point?

Robyn Coburn

<<Anyone can come to my house and meet my kid and talk to him about
unschooling. Anyone can see my extensive dust collection, my stupid
dog, my hideous, pinching pigeon. That's all stuff I've talked about
here. I'm a real person, with a real kid. If I could make my scanner
work I'd put his picture up....
I'm in Deer Lodge, Montana. Anyone can come and visit.
We played at the river yesterday. We threw rocks at floating ice chunks
until we couldn't feel our fingers any more. We had a snowball fight.
We went sledding. We watched "Attack of the Crab Monsters" and read
about dinosaurs. We played Master Labyrinth and chess. We stood on our
heads. We made peanut butter and bird seed surprise for the Flickers. >>



You make your place sound completely irresistible! Maybe next time we are
planning a long road trip we will try to visit you.

Robyn L. Coburn










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wifetovegman2002

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> Thank you for trusting this list with personal information like
that.
> It helps me understand you better, and to have more confidence in
your advice.
>
> If a thousand people give a thousand pieces of advice, I DO want to
know
> which of them live in happy homes where people are smiling and
laughing and
> playing with Tick Action Figures (or whatever they have that's
fun), and which ones
> are twitchy, paranoid people whose kids blow them off (or whatever
they have
> that's evidence that they didn't have any special ideas or
convictions this
> time around).



Ok, I will take the opportunity to come out of lurkdom to say hi,
since I posted 3 times yesterday :-) I have so much to learn from
everyone here that usually I would rather read and think than post,
but the questions about spanking really tore at my heart and I wanted
to comment.

I'm Susan, I live in Virginia, and I have 3 children, ages 14, 12,
and 5. I have been married for 17 years as of next month.

My computer room is wallpapered in coca-cola advertisement wallpaper,
I have a coca-cola mousepad and a bright red rug in here, and I am
drinking a coke right now. I have Johnny Depp's picture as a
screensaver on the computer, and I have seen Pirates of the Caribbean
13 times and the Lord of the Rings movies at least 8 times each in
theaters.

I love rocking chairs.

I am the most unusual person my friends know since I am a christian
who unschools, most of my family is vegetarian except for the 12yo
boy who is a carnivore to the max, I wear tye-dye t-shirts and jeans
and go barefoot most of the year, love all types of music including
country and classical, practice attachment parenting and no spanking
and am working on no coercive punishment threats (hard habits to
break, and sometimes the threat slips out of my mouth before I can
shut it).

We've only been really unschooling since Fall 2002. Before that we
were relaxed/unit study type homeschoolers, so we have been
homeschooling for 14 years now. The 5yo has never been "schooled",
and won't be unless by his choice. My husband doesn't understand
unschooling, but he doesn't put much effort into making the kids do
school work, so he seems happy too. He says, "as long as they are
learning something...", well, that gives me a ton of leeway, doesn't
it!? DH jokingly tells people I can make cleaning toilets sound
educational :-)

We live in a very happy home, I think, anyway. Right now my 14yo is
upstairs resting because she might have mono, my 12yo is out gaming
with some of his older friends, and my 5yo is in his own little world
in the living room with hot wheels cars spread all over the room in
every nook and cranny.

We have two new little puppies who are 13 weeks old tomorrow, and I
am wondering if unschooling works for puppies as well as children.

I've actually been on the list for a while. The first time I came in
here thinking I already knew all about unschooling, didn't take the
time to read for a while, and proceeded to get huffy and offended
when I was put in my place (and rightly so), so I left. I later
found out how wrong I really was, and that Sandra had been right, so
I came back and lurked a little more humbly and took time to read and
think. When I disagreed I took more time to think. Had to sign off
again for a while when family was too busy, but now have returned
since life has slowed a bit for winter, and am enjoying reading and
thinking here.

This past summer, after spending lots of time at the pool with a
school-at-home family, the older kids thought they were tired of
unschooling and wanted to return to "curriculum" again this year, so
we sat down and picked some out, but after about 2.5 months, realized
that it was getting in the way of the important things they wanted to
do and enjoyed, so they asked to return to unschooling. I think that
was the hardest time for me, knowing that we would all be miserable
and letting them make that choice anyway.

My daughter, who plays sports for a nearby private christian school,
was toying with the idea of actually going there next year, but went
to a party where some of her "friends" were, and they laughed in her
face when she told them. They told her that she would never be able
to keep to a schedule or stick to the dress code, that she could
never learn latin, and that she would be "murdered" within 2 weeks by
the workload.

She came home and said she would not want to turn into the snobbish
jerks her friends were, and that she didn't want to give up her
freedom to have metallic green hair, sleep late, volunteer for the
Red Cross, and paint whenever she wanted to. In my heart, all I
could think was, "WHEW!"

Sometimes I think I have so many questions to ask everyone, but
usually if I just lurk long enough, they get answered.

For instance, with no restrictions on food...my children are allergic
to artificial coloring so I feel I do have to restrict that, to keep
them safe...at least for the 5yo who can't understand that this stuff
makes him a very angry person and hyperactive. The older two
children must make their own decision as to whether or not they want
to eat that type of food and suffer the migraine headaches and
shortened attention span that comes during a reaction.

Because of this list, we've almost successfully eliminated all
restrictions on gameboy, nintendo, food, the 5yo's pacifier, and tv
and bedtimes. (DH still gets twitchy about bedtimes and too
much "noise" from the tv.) I've stopped seeing my children's
interests as "just playing" and "hobbies", and realized that they are
the avenues by which they are learning important things, and have
stopped trying to limit the $$ and time spent pursuing them.

Oh, Sandra, about rules vs. principles, I love the line from Pirates
of the Caribbean when the girl says to Captain Barbosa that he must
stick to the Pirates' Code, and he says, "they're more like
guidelines, really..."

Ok, enough, the flood gates are closing again. Back to reading and
thinking for me.


wifetovegman2002

Betsy

**(DH still gets twitchy about bedtimes and too
much "noise" from the tv.) **


There have been several discussions about this, and you can find them by
going to the archives for this list at yahoogroups and doing a search
for "bedtime" (if you want to).

My husband has an early and inflexible job start time and has a hard
time falling asleep, so I do "push" my son, as nicely as I can, to be in
bed by 10. And I did post here and discuss that I am a bit bossy about
bedtime at my house.

Sandra has also posted a few times about being considerate about noise,
which is a consideration extended to any sleeping person at her house.
I think you can find stuff in the archives about this that will be
useful to you. Even food allergies have been discussed, I think.

Betsy