Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Classic Connections? was: New and confused.......
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In a message dated 11/17/2003 10:59:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tktraas@... writes:
explore, with surprising classical, scholarly and even Biblical connections. My
dd and I imagine we have found all kinds of nods and allusions already.
JK Rowling seems to have drawn from all kinds of literary traditions
for specific phrases, names, events, and themes. Here's a snippet from a review
about a literary analysis called The Hidden Key to Harry Potter:
"Including Christian themes in literature is a tradition that Ms.
Rowling is following. The Greats, from Shakespeare to Tolkien, have all done this.
. .
In addition, the books owe a large debt to such influences as C. S. Lewis; J.
R. R. Tolkien; the styles of Dickens, Tolstoy, and Dostoevsky (the use of
descriptive names; strong themes of love and death); Jane Austen (who, along with
Dickens emphasized morals and manners); the epic tradition (The Odyssey, The
Aenead, The Divine Comedy); myth (King Arthur); fairy tales (Cinderella in
particular); cathartic endings (Sophocles, Shakespeare, O, Henry, and Agatha
Christie, among others); and many others. The significance is that all of these
sources have been used to tell stories with deeper themes, such as good vs.
evil, right vs. wrong, and so on. These are deep reads, not just the latest craze
in juvenile fiction. . ."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0972322108/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/002-065381
2-6448014
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tktraas@... writes:
> Earlier we had been downloading the trailer to the new Harry Potter movie,I agree the Harry Potter books can be wonderful for unschoolers to
> Prisoner of Azkaban, we had seen it in the theater when we went to the
> Looney Tunes movie and wanted to see it again. Well,,,,did you know that
> there's Shakespeare in Harry Potter? There's a choir singing "Double, double,
> toil and trouble; Fire burn and Cauldron bubble" over and over and then they
> also have, "Something wicked this way comes" which is from the same scene in
> Macbeth! Blew me over, it was so cool!
>
explore, with surprising classical, scholarly and even Biblical connections. My
dd and I imagine we have found all kinds of nods and allusions already.
JK Rowling seems to have drawn from all kinds of literary traditions
for specific phrases, names, events, and themes. Here's a snippet from a review
about a literary analysis called The Hidden Key to Harry Potter:
"Including Christian themes in literature is a tradition that Ms.
Rowling is following. The Greats, from Shakespeare to Tolkien, have all done this.
. .
In addition, the books owe a large debt to such influences as C. S. Lewis; J.
R. R. Tolkien; the styles of Dickens, Tolstoy, and Dostoevsky (the use of
descriptive names; strong themes of love and death); Jane Austen (who, along with
Dickens emphasized morals and manners); the epic tradition (The Odyssey, The
Aenead, The Divine Comedy); myth (King Arthur); fairy tales (Cinderella in
particular); cathartic endings (Sophocles, Shakespeare, O, Henry, and Agatha
Christie, among others); and many others. The significance is that all of these
sources have been used to tell stories with deeper themes, such as good vs.
evil, right vs. wrong, and so on. These are deep reads, not just the latest craze
in juvenile fiction. . ."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0972322108/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/002-065381
2-6448014
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<< JK Rowling seems to have drawn from all kinds of literary
traditions
for specific phrases, names, events, and themes. Here's a snippet from a
review
about a literary analysis called The Hidden Key to Harry Potter:
"Including Christian themes in literature is a tradition that Ms.
Rowling is following. The Greats, from Shakespeare to Tolkien, have all done
this.
. .
In addition, the books owe a large debt to such influences as C. S. Lewis;
J.
R. R. Tolkien; the styles of Dickens, Tolstoy, and Dostoevsky (the use of
descriptive names; strong themes of love and death); Jane Austen (who, along
with
Dickens emphasized morals and manners); the epic tradition (The Odyssey, The
Aenead, The Divine Comedy); myth (King Arthur); fairy tales (Cinderella in
particular); cathartic endings (Sophocles, Shakespeare, O, Henry, and Agatha
Christie, among others); and many others. The significance is that all of
these
sources have been used to tell stories with deeper themes, such as good vs.
evil, right vs. wrong, and so on. These are deep reads, not just the latest
craze
in juvenile fiction. . .">>
Not to mention, since they didn't, the English Schoolboy/girl Novel - a
whole genre in itself that would be "juvenile fiction". I still have a bunch
of my mother's from the 1940's. They were often long series following the
hero as they rose through the grades. What is humorous to me in the light of
"Order of the Phoenix" is that the main girl ALWAYS becomes a prefect and
later Head Girl, and is often a sports star, rather than an academic.
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
traditions
for specific phrases, names, events, and themes. Here's a snippet from a
review
about a literary analysis called The Hidden Key to Harry Potter:
"Including Christian themes in literature is a tradition that Ms.
Rowling is following. The Greats, from Shakespeare to Tolkien, have all done
this.
. .
In addition, the books owe a large debt to such influences as C. S. Lewis;
J.
R. R. Tolkien; the styles of Dickens, Tolstoy, and Dostoevsky (the use of
descriptive names; strong themes of love and death); Jane Austen (who, along
with
Dickens emphasized morals and manners); the epic tradition (The Odyssey, The
Aenead, The Divine Comedy); myth (King Arthur); fairy tales (Cinderella in
particular); cathartic endings (Sophocles, Shakespeare, O, Henry, and Agatha
Christie, among others); and many others. The significance is that all of
these
sources have been used to tell stories with deeper themes, such as good vs.
evil, right vs. wrong, and so on. These are deep reads, not just the latest
craze
in juvenile fiction. . .">>
Not to mention, since they didn't, the English Schoolboy/girl Novel - a
whole genre in itself that would be "juvenile fiction". I still have a bunch
of my mother's from the 1940's. They were often long series following the
hero as they rose through the grades. What is humorous to me in the light of
"Order of the Phoenix" is that the main girl ALWAYS becomes a prefect and
later Head Girl, and is often a sports star, rather than an academic.
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>My granddaughter and I just watched a documentary called Discovering the
>
> I agree the Harry Potter books can be wonderful for unschoolers to
>explore, with surprising classical, scholarly and even Biblical
>connections. My
>dd and I imagine we have found all kinds of nods and allusions already.
Real World of Harry Potter, which goes into some of that stuff.
Tia
[email protected]
(snip) "Including Christian themes in literature is a tradition that Ms.
Rowling is following. The Greats, from Shakespeare to Tolkien, have all done
this. (end)
. .
The above is new to me and I'm so happy to read this. My DS , 10, LOVES
Harry Potter, and more then once his very Christian grma (in good intentions) has
tried to tell him (and me) how horrible these books are and how they teach
things which he should not know as they may lead him down the wrong path in
life.
If he reads ANYTHING (which , by the way, I awoke to him reading The
Guiness Book of World Records to his brother (5) this morning! great way for a
newbie to wake up!)
I am thrilled. I do have to mention if I didn't before that my kids, just in
the last month, have become so happy, so willing to help around here and as
for the youngest, less "fussy". You would think at 5 he wouldn't be that way
after school, but he was. It was too hard getting up , going, somethimes not
eating lunch. I just found out the kids at preschool used to tease him
because, like me and his dad, he just could not get up in front of the class and
answer questions! The teacher in preschool would even make him go all day with
his schools untied, saying he needed to learn to do it himself. Is this
rediculous or what? They also did a pre K test, and sent the paper home with me
telling me that he wouldn't be able to attend K this year as he was SO far behind.
But at k registration, he blew them away with what he knew. And for the
most part he did like school, but he tells me he likes our school better <G>
ear to ear!!!!!!
syndi
We worry about what a child will be tomorrow, yet we forget that he
is someone today.
Stacie Tauscher
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rowling is following. The Greats, from Shakespeare to Tolkien, have all done
this. (end)
. .
The above is new to me and I'm so happy to read this. My DS , 10, LOVES
Harry Potter, and more then once his very Christian grma (in good intentions) has
tried to tell him (and me) how horrible these books are and how they teach
things which he should not know as they may lead him down the wrong path in
life.
If he reads ANYTHING (which , by the way, I awoke to him reading The
Guiness Book of World Records to his brother (5) this morning! great way for a
newbie to wake up!)
I am thrilled. I do have to mention if I didn't before that my kids, just in
the last month, have become so happy, so willing to help around here and as
for the youngest, less "fussy". You would think at 5 he wouldn't be that way
after school, but he was. It was too hard getting up , going, somethimes not
eating lunch. I just found out the kids at preschool used to tease him
because, like me and his dad, he just could not get up in front of the class and
answer questions! The teacher in preschool would even make him go all day with
his schools untied, saying he needed to learn to do it himself. Is this
rediculous or what? They also did a pre K test, and sent the paper home with me
telling me that he wouldn't be able to attend K this year as he was SO far behind.
But at k registration, he blew them away with what he knew. And for the
most part he did like school, but he tells me he likes our school better <G>
ear to ear!!!!!!
syndi
We worry about what a child will be tomorrow, yet we forget that he
is someone today.
Stacie Tauscher
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<Christian themes in literature>>
I have a question. I have heard for years about how The Lord of the Rings,
The Hobbit, have strong Christian themes. But to me the story seems to be a
condemnation of the Papacy? Does anyone else get that?
The One Ring to unite them all (the pope).......The Orcs coming and taking
over (the crusades).....How the power of the ring corrupts(common in the
church particularly during the Middle Ages.....Middle Earth (Middle
Ages).....Galadriel and her consort (The Lord and Lady of many Pagan
traditions).....Destroying the ring by returning it to Mount Doom (Hell)
Any thoughts from people who actually understand literary stuff? <grin>
Julie S.
I have a question. I have heard for years about how The Lord of the Rings,
The Hobbit, have strong Christian themes. But to me the story seems to be a
condemnation of the Papacy? Does anyone else get that?
The One Ring to unite them all (the pope).......The Orcs coming and taking
over (the crusades).....How the power of the ring corrupts(common in the
church particularly during the Middle Ages.....Middle Earth (Middle
Ages).....Galadriel and her consort (The Lord and Lady of many Pagan
traditions).....Destroying the ring by returning it to Mount Doom (Hell)
Any thoughts from people who actually understand literary stuff? <grin>
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Onesnotenough@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Classic Connections? was: New and
confused.......
> (snip) "Including Christian themes in literature is a tradition that Ms.
> Rowling is following. The Greats, from Shakespeare to Tolkien, have all
done
> this. (end)
> . .
> The above is new to me and I'm so happy to read this. My DS , 10, LOVES
> Harry Potter, and more then once his very Christian grma (in good
intentions) has
> tried to tell him (and me) how horrible these books are and how they teach
> things which he should not know as they may lead him down the wrong path
in
> life.
> If he reads ANYTHING (which , by the way, I awoke to him reading The
> Guiness Book of World Records to his brother (5) this morning! great way
for a
> newbie to wake up!)
> I am thrilled. I do have to mention if I didn't before that my kids, just
in
> the last month, have become so happy, so willing to help around here and
as
> for the youngest, less "fussy". You would think at 5 he wouldn't be that
way
> after school, but he was. It was too hard getting up , going, somethimes
not
> eating lunch. I just found out the kids at preschool used to tease him
> because, like me and his dad, he just could not get up in front of the
class and
> answer questions! The teacher in preschool would even make him go all day
with
> his schools untied, saying he needed to learn to do it himself. Is this
> rediculous or what? They also did a pre K test, and sent the paper home
with me
> telling me that he wouldn't be able to attend K this year as he was SO far
behind.
> But at k registration, he blew them away with what he knew. And for the
> most part he did like school, but he tells me he likes our school better
<G>
> ear to ear!!!!!!
> syndi
> We worry about what a child will be tomorrow, yet we forget that he
> is someone today.
> Stacie Tauscher
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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http://www.unschooling.com
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>
Dawn Adams
>I have a question. I have heard for years about how The Lord of the Rings,That's interesting. I don't Think tolkien would have agreed with you as he always insisted he only set out to write a good tale and didn't mean to address and comment on larger political themes. But...He was still influenced by his times and so those themes might still show up regardless of his intent. I think that's a neat idea Julie and I'm going to keep that in mind next time I read it!
>The Hobbit, have strong Christian themes. But to me the story seems to be a
>condemnation of the Papacy? Does anyone else get that?
>
>The One Ring to unite them all (the pope).......The Orcs coming and taking
>over (the crusades).....How the power of the ring corrupts(common in the
>church particularly during the Middle Ages.....Middle Earth (Middle
>Ages).....Galadriel and her consort (The Lord and Lady of many Pagan
>traditions).....Destroying the ring by returning it to Mount Doom (Hell)
>
>Any thoughts from people who actually understand literary stuff? <grin>
>Julie S.
Dawn (in Eastern Canada)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle E. Conger
Lot's of folks have interpreted Lord of the Rings as a commentary on
WWII--the ring representing the bomb, the fellowship representing the
allies, etc.--an interpretation that Tolkien himself always repudiated. I
think he always had more general things in mind, like machinery and
industrialism, rather than a specific moment like WWII or Roman
Catholicism. But, books often go beyond an author's intentions. As with
Shakespeare's plays, a text's ability to speak to different times
demonstrates why they are considered "great literature"; it's the ability
to endure and make meaningful commentary on human conditions, you know?
--d
At 12:38 PM 11/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
WWII--the ring representing the bomb, the fellowship representing the
allies, etc.--an interpretation that Tolkien himself always repudiated. I
think he always had more general things in mind, like machinery and
industrialism, rather than a specific moment like WWII or Roman
Catholicism. But, books often go beyond an author's intentions. As with
Shakespeare's plays, a text's ability to speak to different times
demonstrates why they are considered "great literature"; it's the ability
to endure and make meaningful commentary on human conditions, you know?
--d
At 12:38 PM 11/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >I have a question. I have heard for years about how The Lord of the----------
> Rings,
> >The Hobbit, have strong Christian themes. But to me the story seems
> to be a
> >condemnation of the Papacy? Does anyone else get that?
> >
> >The One Ring to unite them all (the pope).......The Orcs coming and taking
> >over (the crusades).....How the power of the ring corrupts(common in the
> >church particularly during the Middle Ages.....Middle Earth (Middle
> >Ages).....Galadriel and her consort (The Lord and Lady of many Pagan
> >traditions).....Destroying the ring by returning it to Mount Doom (Hell)
> >
> >Any thoughts from people who actually understand literary stuff? <grin>
>
> >Julie S.
>
> That's interesting. I don't Think tolkien would have agreed with you as
> he always insisted he only set out to write a good tale and didn't mean
> to address and comment on larger political themes. But...He was still
> influenced by his times and so those themes might still show up
> regardless of his intent. I think that's a neat idea Julie and I'm going
> to keep that in mind next time I read it!
>
> Dawn (in Eastern Canada)
>
>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 11/18/2003 11:55:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Wishbone@... writes:
was himself a devout and introspective Catholic, and most scholars see that
influence in LOTR, not its opposite. :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wishbone@... writes:
> That's interesting. I don't Think tolkien would have agreed with you as heWhether he meant for it to influence his storytelling or not, Tolkein
> always insisted he only set out to write a good tale and didn't mean to
> address and comment on larger political themes. But...He was still influenced by
> his times and so those themes might still show up regardless of his intent. I
> think that's a neat idea Julie and I'm going to keep that in mind next time I
> read it!
>
was himself a devout and introspective Catholic, and most scholars see that
influence in LOTR, not its opposite. :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/18/03 9:25:50 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< I have a question. I have heard for years about how The Lord of the Rings,
The Hobbit, have strong Christian themes. But to me the story seems to be a
condemnation of the Papacy? Does anyone else get that?
Pope's ring isn't the best symbol of his office. If it were keys, that might be
a better symbol to say "Yep, the pope." But from a Protestant point of view
the Pope doesn't have the keys to anything (not even the Popemobile).
I don't think Lord of the Ring has Christian themes. I think both LotR and
Christianity have human themes, and that's the similarity.
But if I were a Christian parent determined to protect my children from
anything ungodly, I'd be glad someone had written a book showing Christian themes
in the Lord of the Rings.
Sandra
<< I have a question. I have heard for years about how The Lord of the Rings,
The Hobbit, have strong Christian themes. But to me the story seems to be a
condemnation of the Papacy? Does anyone else get that?
>>Now that you listed it out I see it could be interpreted that way, but the
Pope's ring isn't the best symbol of his office. If it were keys, that might be
a better symbol to say "Yep, the pope." But from a Protestant point of view
the Pope doesn't have the keys to anything (not even the Popemobile).
I don't think Lord of the Ring has Christian themes. I think both LotR and
Christianity have human themes, and that's the similarity.
But if I were a Christian parent determined to protect my children from
anything ungodly, I'd be glad someone had written a book showing Christian themes
in the Lord of the Rings.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/18/03 9:25:50 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< I have a question. I have heard for years about how The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, have strong Christian themes. But to me the story seems to be a condemnation of the Papacy? Does anyone else get that?
Accoring to the National Geo Special on LOTR, he was condemning the First World War and the industrialization of the British countryside. He was a scholar of ancient folklore, so lots of "human" themes there, of which Christianity is one - they even tracked down the Finnish song-lore that he based the Elvish language on.
Worth a look!
My thots,
Tim T
<< I have a question. I have heard for years about how The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, have strong Christian themes. But to me the story seems to be a condemnation of the Papacy? Does anyone else get that?
Accoring to the National Geo Special on LOTR, he was condemning the First World War and the industrialization of the British countryside. He was a scholar of ancient folklore, so lots of "human" themes there, of which Christianity is one - they even tracked down the Finnish song-lore that he based the Elvish language on.
Worth a look!
My thots,
Tim T
liza sabater
On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 02:12 PM, jrossedd@... wrote:
"mum on the dole" image of her as a first time writer was just a
marketing ploy.
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
> JK Rowling seems to have drawn from all kinds of literaryShe has the US equivalent of a PhD in classical French literature. A
> traditions
> for specific phrases, names, events, and themes.
"mum on the dole" image of her as a first time writer was just a
marketing ploy.
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com