Re: responsibility etc.
Pam Hartley
----------
husband is (I'm playing the genetics card): they micro-organize beautifully.
A box of Hamtaro toys is in pristine order while Rome burns. I mean while
the house is trashed. <g>
Not enforcing chores isn't just for those with neatnik children. There are
options besides coercing housework or watching Rome, I mean Home, crumble.
Yours from the Committee for People Over Housework,
Pam
>From: [email protected]My daughters are naturally organized, in exactly the same way that my
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 4184
>Date: Mon, Nov 10, 2003, 1:02 PM
>
> Actually, that isn't what it says at all. It says that I see there are
> families where the kids like things organized and neat (my dh has been that
> way since infancy) and I see that my family isn't like one of those.
husband is (I'm playing the genetics card): they micro-organize beautifully.
A box of Hamtaro toys is in pristine order while Rome burns. I mean while
the house is trashed. <g>
Not enforcing chores isn't just for those with neatnik children. There are
options besides coercing housework or watching Rome, I mean Home, crumble.
Yours from the Committee for People Over Housework,
Pam
J. Stauffer
<<there are options besides coercing housework or watching Rome burn>>
This is exactly what I have been trying to say. The original poster stated
that the kids know if they don't help out there is less time for fun stuff.
Another poster stated that it sounded like "head games" to her.
I simply posted that it isn't "head games" around here. I truly do have
less time to do fun stuff if nobody helps out and the kids are very aware of
it. It isn't a threat. It isn't meant as coersion. It is simply the way
things are.
I could easily clear my calendar so that I have time to do all the housework
myself and the kids could help out or not and we would still have time for
reading stories and museums and such.
The problem would be that what I would be clearing is not stuff that I do
for me (because I haven't had anything other than email for me for some time
now) but stuff the kids do for them that they need my help with. I could
clear 4-H officership, raising and showing 13 goats and a bunch of rabbits,
3 dogs, competitive gymnastics (9 trips to the gym a week and out of town
meets at least once per month), competitive skeet shooting (practice half an
hour away twice a week and meets all across the state at least twice a
month), the ballistics club (just had 12 kids at my house learning physics
and setting off fire kites).
To do the things the kids love there is also a lot of behind the scenes work
that HAS to be done. I have to make arrangements for small kids who are not
involved in the activity (perhaps a babysitter, or a snack and something for
them to play with while we are there), driving back and forth, talking and
acting gently with the kids who are having their favorite television show
interrupted so we can go get Adriane AGAIN, animals have to be fed, bred,
milked, stalls cleaned, hooves trimmed, I have to figure out the physics
behind the catapult, etc.. That is in addition to all the regular mom stuff
and cleaning up.
If I do it ALL myself, I not only don't have time to do fun stuff, I don't
have the energy.
So yes, the kids HAVE to help out if we are going to do any extra stuff. My
plate is full trying to help them do the things they love , the things they
have asked me to help them with, and they know that and understand that.
So yes, there is a difference between coersing housework and watching Rome
burn.....and there is a difference between the kids not needing to raise a
finger and playing "head games" with them.
Julie S.
This is exactly what I have been trying to say. The original poster stated
that the kids know if they don't help out there is less time for fun stuff.
Another poster stated that it sounded like "head games" to her.
I simply posted that it isn't "head games" around here. I truly do have
less time to do fun stuff if nobody helps out and the kids are very aware of
it. It isn't a threat. It isn't meant as coersion. It is simply the way
things are.
I could easily clear my calendar so that I have time to do all the housework
myself and the kids could help out or not and we would still have time for
reading stories and museums and such.
The problem would be that what I would be clearing is not stuff that I do
for me (because I haven't had anything other than email for me for some time
now) but stuff the kids do for them that they need my help with. I could
clear 4-H officership, raising and showing 13 goats and a bunch of rabbits,
3 dogs, competitive gymnastics (9 trips to the gym a week and out of town
meets at least once per month), competitive skeet shooting (practice half an
hour away twice a week and meets all across the state at least twice a
month), the ballistics club (just had 12 kids at my house learning physics
and setting off fire kites).
To do the things the kids love there is also a lot of behind the scenes work
that HAS to be done. I have to make arrangements for small kids who are not
involved in the activity (perhaps a babysitter, or a snack and something for
them to play with while we are there), driving back and forth, talking and
acting gently with the kids who are having their favorite television show
interrupted so we can go get Adriane AGAIN, animals have to be fed, bred,
milked, stalls cleaned, hooves trimmed, I have to figure out the physics
behind the catapult, etc.. That is in addition to all the regular mom stuff
and cleaning up.
If I do it ALL myself, I not only don't have time to do fun stuff, I don't
have the energy.
So yes, the kids HAVE to help out if we are going to do any extra stuff. My
plate is full trying to help them do the things they love , the things they
have asked me to help them with, and they know that and understand that.
So yes, there is a difference between coersing housework and watching Rome
burn.....and there is a difference between the kids not needing to raise a
finger and playing "head games" with them.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pam Hartley" <pamhartley@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 7:43 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: responsibility etc.
>
>
> ----------
> >From: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 4184
> >Date: Mon, Nov 10, 2003, 1:02 PM
> >
>
> > Actually, that isn't what it says at all. It says that I see there are
> > families where the kids like things organized and neat (my dh has been
that
> > way since infancy) and I see that my family isn't like one of those.
>
>
> My daughters are naturally organized, in exactly the same way that my
> husband is (I'm playing the genetics card): they micro-organize
beautifully.
> A box of Hamtaro toys is in pristine order while Rome burns. I mean while
> the house is trashed. <g>
>
> Not enforcing chores isn't just for those with neatnik children. There are
> options besides coercing housework or watching Rome, I mean Home, crumble.
>
> Yours from the Committee for People Over Housework,
>
> Pam
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
jennifer haun
Thank you. Wonderful examples, and more or less what I meant in the original
posting.
:)
it. It isn't a threat. It isn't meant as coersion. It is simply the way
things are.<
_________________________________________________________________
Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95.
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
posting.
:)
>I simply posted that it isn't "head games" around here. I truly do haveless time to do fun stuff if nobody helps out and the kids are very aware of
it. It isn't a threat. It isn't meant as coersion. It is simply the way
things are.<
_________________________________________________________________
Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95.
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
pam sorooshian
On Nov 10, 2003, at 7:14 PM, jennifer haun wrote:
activities? Letting the housework slide isn't an option?
I can certainly see where I have gone wrong, that's for sure <BEG>!!!
My choice has been that if there is ANYTHING else I can do that might
remotely be thought of as "for the kids," it comes before housework.
Hmmmm.... could some sort of happy medium be the answer?
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
>> I simply posted that it isn't "head games" around here. I truly doEither they help with the housework OR you cut back on their
>> have
> less time to do fun stuff if nobody helps out and the kids are very
> aware of
> it. It isn't a threat. It isn't meant as coersion. It is simply the
> way
> things are.<
activities? Letting the housework slide isn't an option?
I can certainly see where I have gone wrong, that's for sure <BEG>!!!
My choice has been that if there is ANYTHING else I can do that might
remotely be thought of as "for the kids," it comes before housework.
Hmmmm.... could some sort of happy medium be the answer?
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Fetteroll
Recently I'm having a hard time figuring out what are lines quoted from
other emails and what are new comments.
This isn't meant as a rule or anything. Just a request to help make a busy
list easier to read.
Yes, the new AOL software is causing problems with quotes. But nonAOLers
don't have that excuse! ;-)
Some people are putting plain text quotes at the top and plain text comments
follow. But some people are adding plain text comments at the top and
letting the plain text email they're responding to dangle beneath. Some are
doing both! And it's not obvious at least to me where the new stuff is. I
know if I need more than a second or two to figure out what I'm supposed to
read, it's likely I'm just going to skip it. (Especially since the list
occasionally gets duplicate posts so if a couple seconds scan says duplicate
there isn't a reason to keep searching to make sure that it isn't.)
It helps me the most as a reader, to have a snippet quoted from the email
followed by the comment. People have already read the quoted email so they
don't need to see more than a bit to tell them what's prompting the comment.
Yes, it's common in business and other correspondence to include the whole
email or series of emails at the bottom to let someone know what you're
responding to. But on the list we've all been (it's presumed) following
along and we've just, often minutes before, read the other email so we don't
need the whole thing included. (And it drives people on digest bonkers!)
I'd greatly appreciate it if people would look over what they're writing and
see if it's clear that a quote is a quote and comments are clearly comments.
A line separating the two isn't enough since some people are putting them in
quote-comment order, and some in comment-quote order.
One suggestion is you might try checking under Edit in the menu of your
email program to see if there's a "Paste as Quote" option.
Joyce
other emails and what are new comments.
This isn't meant as a rule or anything. Just a request to help make a busy
list easier to read.
Yes, the new AOL software is causing problems with quotes. But nonAOLers
don't have that excuse! ;-)
Some people are putting plain text quotes at the top and plain text comments
follow. But some people are adding plain text comments at the top and
letting the plain text email they're responding to dangle beneath. Some are
doing both! And it's not obvious at least to me where the new stuff is. I
know if I need more than a second or two to figure out what I'm supposed to
read, it's likely I'm just going to skip it. (Especially since the list
occasionally gets duplicate posts so if a couple seconds scan says duplicate
there isn't a reason to keep searching to make sure that it isn't.)
It helps me the most as a reader, to have a snippet quoted from the email
followed by the comment. People have already read the quoted email so they
don't need to see more than a bit to tell them what's prompting the comment.
Yes, it's common in business and other correspondence to include the whole
email or series of emails at the bottom to let someone know what you're
responding to. But on the list we've all been (it's presumed) following
along and we've just, often minutes before, read the other email so we don't
need the whole thing included. (And it drives people on digest bonkers!)
I'd greatly appreciate it if people would look over what they're writing and
see if it's clear that a quote is a quote and comments are clearly comments.
A line separating the two isn't enough since some people are putting them in
quote-comment order, and some in comment-quote order.
One suggestion is you might try checking under Edit in the menu of your
email program to see if there's a "Paste as Quote" option.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/11/03 2:43:54 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< and there is a difference between the kids not needing to raise a
finger and playing "head games" with them.
specific scenario which ended with if the kids don't clean the kitchen we lose
the house.
It IS a head game if the thing the parent says isn't true, and it
guilt-inducing.
"The kids not needing to raise a finger" hasn't been a part of anyone's
scenario to date.
Not making my kids eat doesn't mean my kids don't eat. They do.
Not teaching my kids to read didn't mean my kids didn't learn to read. They
did.
Not making my kids turn the TV off didn't mean my kids never turned it off.
They do.
Not making my kids "do chores" doesn't mean they never help clean. They do.
Sandra
<< and there is a difference between the kids not needing to raise a
finger and playing "head games" with them.
>>The head games comment was not made toward you. It was (I think) toward a
specific scenario which ended with if the kids don't clean the kitchen we lose
the house.
It IS a head game if the thing the parent says isn't true, and it
guilt-inducing.
"The kids not needing to raise a finger" hasn't been a part of anyone's
scenario to date.
Not making my kids eat doesn't mean my kids don't eat. They do.
Not teaching my kids to read didn't mean my kids didn't learn to read. They
did.
Not making my kids turn the TV off didn't mean my kids never turned it off.
They do.
Not making my kids "do chores" doesn't mean they never help clean. They do.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/11/03 4:52:02 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< Either they help with the housework OR you cut back on their
activities? Letting the housework slide isn't an option?
<<I can certainly see where I have gone wrong, that's for sure <BEG>!!!
<<My choice has been that if there is ANYTHING else I can do that might
remotely be thought of as "for the kids," it comes before housework.
Hmmmm.... could some sort of happy medium be the answer? >>
Well I too have gone with kids' learning being a priority far above
housework.
As a child and as a parent too I knew and know families in which housework is
the #1 priority. The children only go places with their parents if there is
absolutely no option for them, and they only go sullenly. They parents spent
all their points on a clean floor five years ago. It's not clean anymore and
their children hate them.
Sandra
<< Either they help with the housework OR you cut back on their
activities? Letting the housework slide isn't an option?
<<I can certainly see where I have gone wrong, that's for sure <BEG>!!!
<<My choice has been that if there is ANYTHING else I can do that might
remotely be thought of as "for the kids," it comes before housework.
Hmmmm.... could some sort of happy medium be the answer? >>
Well I too have gone with kids' learning being a priority far above
housework.
As a child and as a parent too I knew and know families in which housework is
the #1 priority. The children only go places with their parents if there is
absolutely no option for them, and they only go sullenly. They parents spent
all their points on a clean floor five years ago. It's not clean anymore and
their children hate them.
Sandra
J. Stauffer
<<Either they help with the housework OR you cut back on their activities?>>
Either I am posting particularly poorly or you are being particularly
obtuse. How can I let the housework slide when the house is never clean as
it is? I haven't had time to clean my bathroom in 2 weeks. Not because it
doesn't need it but because I've been busy doing other things.
You seem to be under the assumption that I have lots of time and the house
is in top-notch shape and I clean house just to fill empty space or to live
up to some Good Housekeeping standard.
That isn't the case. This is a typical day at our house. I got up at 6:00
this morning, talked to Danny (5) briefly. I fed and milked 13 goats, I
packaged the milk for the "failure to thrive" baby that drinks it, I fixed
breakfast for 4 kids, took a shower and fixed breakfast for myself and am
checking emails while I'm eating. I will then go clean the kitchen, feed
the dogs, cat, deer and birds. I will stop by the vets and pick up our dog
that died over the weekend. We will have a ceremony to bury him. I will
fix lunch and we will head to park day. I will have to make sure that we
leave by 2:00 because Michelle's gymnastics class starts at 2:45. I will
take her then run by the feed store to pick up goat feed. Then I will run
by the house, pick up Danny for his gymnastics class at 3:30. I will be
back at 4:30 to pick him up and drop Adriane off. Then I will start dinner.
While I cook, I will ask the kids to make a sweep through the house to pick
up their stuff because it is now difficult to even walk through the living
room or any of the upstairs. Clothes, toys, papers, blankets, toothbrushes,
etc. litter the floor of our home everyday. Not sometimes, not in a couple
of rooms, but throughout the house. We have tried lots of systems, such as
me helping in each room, whatever, but each system seems to take longer than
the one before it. Dinner is late, kids are hungry, people are grumpy
because they can't find their stuff or worse, somebody stepped on it and
broke it.
I have lots of kids, they have lots of activities and interests and stuff,
they have little "organization", I have only so many hours in a day.
You really seem to think that I'm talking about a little clutter......a
little clutter is what we consider clean around here. I'm talking about the
kids regularly trash the house to where CPS would have a fit if they stopped
in.
It is 9:15 am here. The kids have already been riding bikes that are now in
the driveway behind the van and will need to be moved if we are to leave.
There are 3 blankets in the floor, about 20 cars in the living room, there
are markers and colors and paper on the table and in the floor of the dining
room, the pillows are off the couch for a fort, there are cake crumbs and
chocolate smears all over the table, etc....and all but one of the kids has
been up less than 2 hours and most of that was spent with breakfast. None
of it will be put away unless I do it or ask them to do it.
If you have any real suggestions, I'd gladly listen.....but asking the kids
to pick up after themselves once or twice a day so people can navigate the
house and so I will have time to help them with activities and projects
doesn't seem like coersion to me....it seems like simple respect.
Leaving my stuff out to where it interferes with the activities of others
isn't respectful to adults or children. If I needed dh to help me with
something and he was busy I would help him with something back if he asked
me. Then if he did carry through and help me but I didn't carry through and
help him, I wouldn't see it as coersion if he reminded me of it.
Julie S.
Either I am posting particularly poorly or you are being particularly
obtuse. How can I let the housework slide when the house is never clean as
it is? I haven't had time to clean my bathroom in 2 weeks. Not because it
doesn't need it but because I've been busy doing other things.
You seem to be under the assumption that I have lots of time and the house
is in top-notch shape and I clean house just to fill empty space or to live
up to some Good Housekeeping standard.
That isn't the case. This is a typical day at our house. I got up at 6:00
this morning, talked to Danny (5) briefly. I fed and milked 13 goats, I
packaged the milk for the "failure to thrive" baby that drinks it, I fixed
breakfast for 4 kids, took a shower and fixed breakfast for myself and am
checking emails while I'm eating. I will then go clean the kitchen, feed
the dogs, cat, deer and birds. I will stop by the vets and pick up our dog
that died over the weekend. We will have a ceremony to bury him. I will
fix lunch and we will head to park day. I will have to make sure that we
leave by 2:00 because Michelle's gymnastics class starts at 2:45. I will
take her then run by the feed store to pick up goat feed. Then I will run
by the house, pick up Danny for his gymnastics class at 3:30. I will be
back at 4:30 to pick him up and drop Adriane off. Then I will start dinner.
While I cook, I will ask the kids to make a sweep through the house to pick
up their stuff because it is now difficult to even walk through the living
room or any of the upstairs. Clothes, toys, papers, blankets, toothbrushes,
etc. litter the floor of our home everyday. Not sometimes, not in a couple
of rooms, but throughout the house. We have tried lots of systems, such as
me helping in each room, whatever, but each system seems to take longer than
the one before it. Dinner is late, kids are hungry, people are grumpy
because they can't find their stuff or worse, somebody stepped on it and
broke it.
I have lots of kids, they have lots of activities and interests and stuff,
they have little "organization", I have only so many hours in a day.
You really seem to think that I'm talking about a little clutter......a
little clutter is what we consider clean around here. I'm talking about the
kids regularly trash the house to where CPS would have a fit if they stopped
in.
It is 9:15 am here. The kids have already been riding bikes that are now in
the driveway behind the van and will need to be moved if we are to leave.
There are 3 blankets in the floor, about 20 cars in the living room, there
are markers and colors and paper on the table and in the floor of the dining
room, the pillows are off the couch for a fort, there are cake crumbs and
chocolate smears all over the table, etc....and all but one of the kids has
been up less than 2 hours and most of that was spent with breakfast. None
of it will be put away unless I do it or ask them to do it.
If you have any real suggestions, I'd gladly listen.....but asking the kids
to pick up after themselves once or twice a day so people can navigate the
house and so I will have time to help them with activities and projects
doesn't seem like coersion to me....it seems like simple respect.
Leaving my stuff out to where it interferes with the activities of others
isn't respectful to adults or children. If I needed dh to help me with
something and he was busy I would help him with something back if he asked
me. Then if he did carry through and help me but I didn't carry through and
help him, I wouldn't see it as coersion if he reminded me of it.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: responsibility etc.
>
> On Nov 10, 2003, at 7:14 PM, jennifer haun wrote:
>
> >> I simply posted that it isn't "head games" around here. I truly do
> >> have
> > less time to do fun stuff if nobody helps out and the kids are very
> > aware of
> > it. It isn't a threat. It isn't meant as coersion. It is simply the
> > way
> > things are.<
>
> Either they help with the housework OR you cut back on their
> activities? Letting the housework slide isn't an option?
>
> I can certainly see where I have gone wrong, that's for sure <BEG>!!!
>
> My choice has been that if there is ANYTHING else I can do that might
> remotely be thought of as "for the kids," it comes before housework.
> Hmmmm.... could some sort of happy medium be the answer?
>
>
> -pam
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<Could some sort of happy medium be the answer?>>
And that is exactly what we think we have. The house is NEVER sparkling, I
am always busy helping the kids and when I need it, I ask them to help me.
Julie S.
And that is exactly what we think we have. The house is NEVER sparkling, I
am always busy helping the kids and when I need it, I ask them to help me.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: responsibility etc.
>
> In a message dated 11/11/03 4:52:02 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
>
> << Either they help with the housework OR you cut back on their
> activities? Letting the housework slide isn't an option?
>
> <<I can certainly see where I have gone wrong, that's for sure <BEG>!!!
>
> <<My choice has been that if there is ANYTHING else I can do that might
> remotely be thought of as "for the kids," it comes before housework.
> Hmmmm.... could some sort of happy medium be the answer? >>
>
>
> Well I too have gone with kids' learning being a priority far above
> housework.
>
> As a child and as a parent too I knew and know families in which housework
is
> the #1 priority. The children only go places with their parents if there
is
> absolutely no option for them, and they only go sullenly. They parents
spent
> all their points on a clean floor five years ago. It's not clean anymore
and
> their children hate them.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/11/2003 10:07:00 AM Central Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
Recently I'm having a hard time figuring out what are lines quoted from
other emails and what are new comments.
~~~~~
It's making me nuts, too...because what I see on the screen is not what gets
posted. I'm trying to remember to add something between the quote and my
reply, but I guess it's not enough. I get all my emails displayed in too big a
font, as well, and that's irritating, too.
Anyone know anything about AOL's plans for this?
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
Recently I'm having a hard time figuring out what are lines quoted from
other emails and what are new comments.
~~~~~
It's making me nuts, too...because what I see on the screen is not what gets
posted. I'm trying to remember to add something between the quote and my
reply, but I guess it's not enough. I get all my emails displayed in too big a
font, as well, and that's irritating, too.
Anyone know anything about AOL's plans for this?
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/11/03 11:45:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
You really seem to think that I'm talking about a little clutter......a
little clutter is what we consider clean around here. I'm talking about the
kids regularly trash the house to where CPS would have a fit if they stopped
in.
windows, peeled off wall paper, marked up walls and doors.. hmm, the
outside/yard is just as bad.. I feel ya girl.. :-)
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
You really seem to think that I'm talking about a little clutter......a
little clutter is what we consider clean around here. I'm talking about the
kids regularly trash the house to where CPS would have a fit if they stopped
in.
>>>That about describes my house.. Add. holes in the walls, busted out doors and
windows, peeled off wall paper, marked up walls and doors.. hmm, the
outside/yard is just as bad.. I feel ya girl.. :-)
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/11/03 11:22:16 AM Central Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
It's making me nuts, too...because what I see on the screen is not what gets
posted. I'm trying to remember to add something between the quote and my
reply, but I guess it's not enough. I get all my emails displayed in too big
a
font, as well, and that's irritating, too.
Anyone know anything about AOL's plans for this?
Tuck
##########
According to each and every AOL live tech help support person I have talked
to; I am the only person who has complained about this particular problem, and
since they have checked their data and no other complaints show up about this
particular problem then it must be my computer. So I guess it is all my fault,
and I need to get a new computer, then all our problems will be solved. OTOH,
I have been told that there is a "glitch" they are working on and it should
be fixed in the next few weeks, but that was in September. UGH!!!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
It's making me nuts, too...because what I see on the screen is not what gets
posted. I'm trying to remember to add something between the quote and my
reply, but I guess it's not enough. I get all my emails displayed in too big
a
font, as well, and that's irritating, too.
Anyone know anything about AOL's plans for this?
Tuck
##########
According to each and every AOL live tech help support person I have talked
to; I am the only person who has complained about this particular problem, and
since they have checked their data and no other complaints show up about this
particular problem then it must be my computer. So I guess it is all my fault,
and I need to get a new computer, then all our problems will be solved. OTOH,
I have been told that there is a "glitch" they are working on and it should
be fixed in the next few weeks, but that was in September. UGH!!!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I have a good size Br and it is cleaned first. It is also sometimes cleaned
at 10pm or on Saturday.
It's not about making them its about them wanting to help on their own. Its
not about them growing up and hating to clean because someone forced,
threatened or whined about it.
It happens and its possible to have a child that likes to assist sometimes.
My son is 12 and my daughter 4 they both help when they like but it makes a
difference. My 18 mo old helps wash bottles not because I shoved a bottle brush
and soap in his hand he does it because he likes to try it.
I also do not have neat tidy children, my house is turned up side down all
the time I just have bins and no more carpets. I also have wall to wall stuff
and way too many toys so its not a situation of not much to pick up. I have
plenty I just do it in spurts.
Laura
*****************************************************
<<Either I am posting particularly poorly or you are being particularly
obtuse. How can I let the housework slide when the house is never clean as
it is? I haven't had time to clean my bathroom in 2 weeks. Not because it
doesn't need it but because I've been busy doing other things.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
at 10pm or on Saturday.
It's not about making them its about them wanting to help on their own. Its
not about them growing up and hating to clean because someone forced,
threatened or whined about it.
It happens and its possible to have a child that likes to assist sometimes.
My son is 12 and my daughter 4 they both help when they like but it makes a
difference. My 18 mo old helps wash bottles not because I shoved a bottle brush
and soap in his hand he does it because he likes to try it.
I also do not have neat tidy children, my house is turned up side down all
the time I just have bins and no more carpets. I also have wall to wall stuff
and way too many toys so its not a situation of not much to pick up. I have
plenty I just do it in spurts.
Laura
*****************************************************
<<Either I am posting particularly poorly or you are being particularly
obtuse. How can I let the housework slide when the house is never clean as
it is? I haven't had time to clean my bathroom in 2 weeks. Not because it
doesn't need it but because I've been busy doing other things.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/11/2003 11:43:51 AM Central Standard Time,
Dnowens@... writes:
According to each and every AOL live tech help support person I have talked
to; I am the only person who has complained about this particular problem,
and
since they have checked their data and no other complaints show up about this
particular problem then it must be my computer. So I guess it is all my
fault,
and I need to get a new computer, then all our problems will be solved. OTOH,
I have been told that there is a "glitch" they are working on and it should
be fixed in the next few weeks, but that was in September. UGH!!!
~Nancy
~~~~
Oh. Ok. lol. Guess I'll rehabituate.
Thanks for making those calls! I hate doing that.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dnowens@... writes:
According to each and every AOL live tech help support person I have talked
to; I am the only person who has complained about this particular problem,
and
since they have checked their data and no other complaints show up about this
particular problem then it must be my computer. So I guess it is all my
fault,
and I need to get a new computer, then all our problems will be solved. OTOH,
I have been told that there is a "glitch" they are working on and it should
be fixed in the next few weeks, but that was in September. UGH!!!
~Nancy
~~~~
Oh. Ok. lol. Guess I'll rehabituate.
Thanks for making those calls! I hate doing that.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I would think it was a glitch.
They always tell me I am the only one when I know others have called or Imed
them also. Its damage control. I have the Gold beta version and mine doesn't
work either. Laura
*****************************************************************
<<<In a message dated 11/11/2003 4:47:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
According to each and every AOL live tech help support person I have talked
to; I am the only person who has complained about this particular problem,
and
since they have checked their data and no other complaints show up about this
particular problem then it must be my computer. So I guess it is all my
fault,
and I need to get a new computer, then all our problems will be solved. OTOH,
I have been told that there is a "glitch" they are working on and it should
be fixed in the next few weeks, but that was in September. UGH!!!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
They always tell me I am the only one when I know others have called or Imed
them also. Its damage control. I have the Gold beta version and mine doesn't
work either. Laura
*****************************************************************
<<<In a message dated 11/11/2003 4:47:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
According to each and every AOL live tech help support person I have talked
to; I am the only person who has complained about this particular problem,
and
since they have checked their data and no other complaints show up about this
particular problem then it must be my computer. So I guess it is all my
fault,
and I need to get a new computer, then all our problems will be solved. OTOH,
I have been told that there is a "glitch" they are working on and it should
be fixed in the next few weeks, but that was in September. UGH!!!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/11/03 03:47:14 PM Central Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
Oh. Ok. lol. Guess I'll rehabituate.
Thanks for making those calls! I hate doing that.
Tuck
##########
You are welcome! Especially since it is my computer at fault. <g> Sorry for
the inconvenience.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
Oh. Ok. lol. Guess I'll rehabituate.
Thanks for making those calls! I hate doing that.
Tuck
##########
You are welcome! Especially since it is my computer at fault. <g> Sorry for
the inconvenience.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Nov 11, 2003, at 7:33 AM, J. Stauffer wrote:
I don't think that when you say the kids have required "chores" that
they have to do or else...., that people picture what you described
above - simply asking them to pick up after themselves once or twice a
day.
So - just since you wondered aloud, I will say that I personally didn't
understand that that is what you were describing. I pictured a chore
chart and kids with regular required chores that had to get done or
you'd say, "Nope, you didn't empty all the trash cans this morning so
now I don't have time to read you a story."
Its hard to know how others will "picture" what we describe - we KNOW
what we mean and we assume that we're describing it accurately, but we
all see it through the lens of our own experience and what we see
around us.
The people around here whose kids have required chores are not talking
about mom saying, "Sweetie, I'm running out of time and I really want
the dishwasher unloaded and reloaded so that we'll have clean dishes
later when we get home, so could you please get that done before it is
time for us to get going to 4H and soccer today?"
I don't have any sort of philosophical problem, like some people do
here, of expecting kids to help out, and help out in increasing amounts
as they get older. I have problems with inflexibility and putting a
house's needs before their needs and all that. And circumstances
determine a lot of how much help I'd expect - when my then-16 and 17 yo
was going to college almost full time and working almost full time, I
didn't expect ANY housework out of her and I just cleaned up after her,
resigned to the fact that she was not going to get to it (not joyfully
- I am NOT there and that's probably my downfall).
But, as much as I love my children, and I REALLY do, I'm not THAT crazy
about some of the things I do for them - like sitting at the horse
stables for several hours, several times per week, while my 12 yo has
an absolute BLAST grooming and training and riding, etc. I do it for
her. I am with Julie in the sense that I see nothing wrong with
expecting some helping out in return. I could do a LOT less for my kids
and still be doing a whole lot more than most parents and I think maybe
that's what Julie is thinking, too?
My kids are reasonably willing to help. They know I don't expect them
to jump up and help the instant I ask and they know that I just LOVE it
when they do something without even being asked (nothing warms my heart
more than hearing dishes being done when I have no idea who has decided
to do them <G>). They would definitely like the house to be more
orderly - they're at least as tired as I am of it being such a mess. So
- maybe its good I let it get this bad - they BELIEVE it that it can
happen and maybe won't want to let it happen again.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> If you have any real suggestions, I'd gladly listen.....but asking theJulie,
> kids
> to pick up after themselves once or twice a day so people can navigate
> the
> house and so I will have time to help them with activities and projects
> doesn't seem like coersion to me....it seems like simple respect.
I don't think that when you say the kids have required "chores" that
they have to do or else...., that people picture what you described
above - simply asking them to pick up after themselves once or twice a
day.
So - just since you wondered aloud, I will say that I personally didn't
understand that that is what you were describing. I pictured a chore
chart and kids with regular required chores that had to get done or
you'd say, "Nope, you didn't empty all the trash cans this morning so
now I don't have time to read you a story."
Its hard to know how others will "picture" what we describe - we KNOW
what we mean and we assume that we're describing it accurately, but we
all see it through the lens of our own experience and what we see
around us.
The people around here whose kids have required chores are not talking
about mom saying, "Sweetie, I'm running out of time and I really want
the dishwasher unloaded and reloaded so that we'll have clean dishes
later when we get home, so could you please get that done before it is
time for us to get going to 4H and soccer today?"
I don't have any sort of philosophical problem, like some people do
here, of expecting kids to help out, and help out in increasing amounts
as they get older. I have problems with inflexibility and putting a
house's needs before their needs and all that. And circumstances
determine a lot of how much help I'd expect - when my then-16 and 17 yo
was going to college almost full time and working almost full time, I
didn't expect ANY housework out of her and I just cleaned up after her,
resigned to the fact that she was not going to get to it (not joyfully
- I am NOT there and that's probably my downfall).
But, as much as I love my children, and I REALLY do, I'm not THAT crazy
about some of the things I do for them - like sitting at the horse
stables for several hours, several times per week, while my 12 yo has
an absolute BLAST grooming and training and riding, etc. I do it for
her. I am with Julie in the sense that I see nothing wrong with
expecting some helping out in return. I could do a LOT less for my kids
and still be doing a whole lot more than most parents and I think maybe
that's what Julie is thinking, too?
My kids are reasonably willing to help. They know I don't expect them
to jump up and help the instant I ask and they know that I just LOVE it
when they do something without even being asked (nothing warms my heart
more than hearing dishes being done when I have no idea who has decided
to do them <G>). They would definitely like the house to be more
orderly - they're at least as tired as I am of it being such a mess. So
- maybe its good I let it get this bad - they BELIEVE it that it can
happen and maybe won't want to let it happen again.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
pam sorooshian
On Nov 11, 2003, at 8:33 AM, tuckervill2@... wrote:
email from rich text to plain text. There may be a way for you to
switch something so that you are writing in plain text from the get-go
and that might fix the problem of things appearing on the list
differently than as you write them.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> I get all my emails displayed in too big aI think that it has something to do with AOL's way of changing your
> font, as well, and that's irritating, too.
>
> Anyone know anything about AOL's plans for this?
email from rich text to plain text. There may be a way for you to
switch something so that you are writing in plain text from the get-go
and that might fix the problem of things appearing on the list
differently than as you write them.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
J. Stauffer
<<when you say the kids have required chores they have to do or else that
this is what people picture...>>
Well, actually, I never said the kids had required chores. I said they HAVE
to help out or there isn't time for extra fun stuff. When another poster
stated that, a responding post called it a "head game", like some sort of
black mail.
To be honest, it would depend on what I had asked the kids to do as to how I
would take a "no" response. If I had asked Zach to mow (he likes to ride
the mower), it wouldn't be a big deal, so what.
If I asked him to pick up his stuff out of the living room, I would want to
know why not, like is he still playing with it, does he have some plan I
don't know about, etc..
If I reminded him to feed the goat that he begged me for and is getting
ribbons and money from youth contests who believe that he is taking care of
it, not me, he would need a reason or an alternate plan. If he was going to
be gone that evening, no big deal I would feed the goat. If he wanted to
finish a game, so what do it later. If he just didn't want to, we would
talk about his responsibility to the animal and if it continued to be a
problem and no one in the family was willing to take on the resonsibility, I
would seriously consider selling the animal. It deserves better.
Julie S.
this is what people picture...>>
Well, actually, I never said the kids had required chores. I said they HAVE
to help out or there isn't time for extra fun stuff. When another poster
stated that, a responding post called it a "head game", like some sort of
black mail.
To be honest, it would depend on what I had asked the kids to do as to how I
would take a "no" response. If I had asked Zach to mow (he likes to ride
the mower), it wouldn't be a big deal, so what.
If I asked him to pick up his stuff out of the living room, I would want to
know why not, like is he still playing with it, does he have some plan I
don't know about, etc..
If I reminded him to feed the goat that he begged me for and is getting
ribbons and money from youth contests who believe that he is taking care of
it, not me, he would need a reason or an alternate plan. If he was going to
be gone that evening, no big deal I would feed the goat. If he wanted to
finish a game, so what do it later. If he just didn't want to, we would
talk about his responsibility to the animal and if it continued to be a
problem and no one in the family was willing to take on the resonsibility, I
would seriously consider selling the animal. It deserves better.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: responsibility etc.
>
> On Nov 11, 2003, at 7:33 AM, J. Stauffer wrote:
>
> > If you have any real suggestions, I'd gladly listen.....but asking the
> > kids
> > to pick up after themselves once or twice a day so people can navigate
> > the
> > house and so I will have time to help them with activities and projects
> > doesn't seem like coersion to me....it seems like simple respect.
>
> Julie,
>
> I don't think that when you say the kids have required "chores" that
> they have to do or else...., that people picture what you described
> above - simply asking them to pick up after themselves once or twice a
> day.
>
> So - just since you wondered aloud, I will say that I personally didn't
> understand that that is what you were describing. I pictured a chore
> chart and kids with regular required chores that had to get done or
> you'd say, "Nope, you didn't empty all the trash cans this morning so
> now I don't have time to read you a story."
>
> Its hard to know how others will "picture" what we describe - we KNOW
> what we mean and we assume that we're describing it accurately, but we
> all see it through the lens of our own experience and what we see
> around us.
>
> The people around here whose kids have required chores are not talking
> about mom saying, "Sweetie, I'm running out of time and I really want
> the dishwasher unloaded and reloaded so that we'll have clean dishes
> later when we get home, so could you please get that done before it is
> time for us to get going to 4H and soccer today?"
>
> I don't have any sort of philosophical problem, like some people do
> here, of expecting kids to help out, and help out in increasing amounts
> as they get older. I have problems with inflexibility and putting a
> house's needs before their needs and all that. And circumstances
> determine a lot of how much help I'd expect - when my then-16 and 17 yo
> was going to college almost full time and working almost full time, I
> didn't expect ANY housework out of her and I just cleaned up after her,
> resigned to the fact that she was not going to get to it (not joyfully
> - I am NOT there and that's probably my downfall).
>
> But, as much as I love my children, and I REALLY do, I'm not THAT crazy
> about some of the things I do for them - like sitting at the horse
> stables for several hours, several times per week, while my 12 yo has
> an absolute BLAST grooming and training and riding, etc. I do it for
> her. I am with Julie in the sense that I see nothing wrong with
> expecting some helping out in return. I could do a LOT less for my kids
> and still be doing a whole lot more than most parents and I think maybe
> that's what Julie is thinking, too?
>
> My kids are reasonably willing to help. They know I don't expect them
> to jump up and help the instant I ask and they know that I just LOVE it
> when they do something without even being asked (nothing warms my heart
> more than hearing dishes being done when I have no idea who has decided
> to do them <G>). They would definitely like the house to be more
> orderly - they're at least as tired as I am of it being such a mess. So
> - maybe its good I let it get this bad - they BELIEVE it that it can
> happen and maybe won't want to let it happen again.
>
>
> -pam
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
averyschmidt
> If I reminded him to feed the goat that he begged me for and isgetting
> ribbons and money from youth contests who believe that he istaking care of
> it, not me, he would need a reason or an alternate plan. If hewas going to
> be gone that evening, no big deal I would feed the goat. If hewanted to
> finish a game, so what do it later. If he just didn't want to, wewould
> talk about his responsibility to the animal and if it continued tobe a
> problem and no one in the family was willing to take on theresonsibility, I
> would seriously consider selling the animal. It deserves better.I just read in another post that you have something like 13 goats
which you feed and take care of, as well as other animals.
Why would feeding one extra goat (your son's) such a huge difference
in your routine that you'd need to sell that one goat- the one your
son begged for? Why would he need to beg for one in the first place
if you already had 13 of them? How old is your son?
Patti
Robyn Coburn
<<Not making my kids eat doesn't mean my kids don't eat. They do.
Not teaching my kids to read didn't mean my kids didn't learn to read. They
did.
Not making my kids turn the TV off didn't mean my kids never turned it off.
They do.
Not making my kids "do chores" doesn't mean they never help clean. They
do.>>
Jayn is recently 4. She has little interest in putting her toys away. I ask
if I can do it and invite her to help me. She sometimes does, but usually I
do it for her. Sometimes she asks me to leave the things out because she is
going back to them. Sometimes she helps to just move the pile out of the
walkway.
However she loves cleaning. Yesterday, after I cooked breakfast, she cleaned
all the surfaces in the kitchen with a soapy wet scrubbing brush and a damp
cloth to rinse. Then she put the cloth in the laundry basket I keep in the
kitchen for that purpose. It was all her own idea. I left her to it, and she
did a perfectly good job. She also likes to dust with the Swiffer dusters
that give you a new plastic holder every time you buy the fluffy duster
pads. Electrostatic cling helps a lot. We have fun together and apart.
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not teaching my kids to read didn't mean my kids didn't learn to read. They
did.
Not making my kids turn the TV off didn't mean my kids never turned it off.
They do.
Not making my kids "do chores" doesn't mean they never help clean. They
do.>>
Jayn is recently 4. She has little interest in putting her toys away. I ask
if I can do it and invite her to help me. She sometimes does, but usually I
do it for her. Sometimes she asks me to leave the things out because she is
going back to them. Sometimes she helps to just move the pile out of the
walkway.
However she loves cleaning. Yesterday, after I cooked breakfast, she cleaned
all the surfaces in the kitchen with a soapy wet scrubbing brush and a damp
cloth to rinse. Then she put the cloth in the laundry basket I keep in the
kitchen for that purpose. It was all her own idea. I left her to it, and she
did a perfectly good job. She also likes to dust with the Swiffer dusters
that give you a new plastic holder every time you buy the fluffy duster
pads. Electrostatic cling helps a lot. We have fun together and apart.
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
> > If I reminded him to feed the goat that he begged me for and isIf he is entering the goat in any kind of show or contest, it's expected
>getting
> > ribbons and money from youth contests who believe that he is
>taking care of
> > it, not me, he would need a reason or an alternate plan.
>I just read in another post that you have something like 13 goats
>which you feed and take care of, as well as other animals.
>Why would feeding one extra goat (your son's) such a huge difference
>in your routine that you'd need to sell that one goat- the one your
>son begged for? Why would he need to beg for one in the first place
>if you already had 13 of them? How old is your son?
that he's the one looking after it. If he doesn't look after it, he
wouldn't deserve the prizes and money. I made the same deal with my son
when he wanted to enter chickens and rabbits in the Fall Fair. I had to
sign a form saying that all his entries were done by him, and that included
looking after any animals entered.
Tia
[email protected]
I said head games.
When you say it the way you posted and the way your first line reads it comes
across much firmer than your examples below. Black mail is a good one also.
Laura
******************************************
<<<Well, actually, I never said the kids had required chores. I said they
HAVE
to help out or there isn't time for extra fun stuff. When another poster
stated that, a responding post called it a "head game", like some sort of
black mail.
To be honest, it would depend on what I had asked the kids to do as to how I
would take a "no" response. If I had asked Zach to mow (he likes to ride
the mower), it wouldn't be a big deal, so what.
If I asked him to pick up his stuff out of the living room, I would want to
know why not, like is he still playing with it, does he have some plan I
don't know about, etc..
If I reminded him to feed the goat that he begged me for and is getting
ribbons and money from youth contests who believe that he is taking care of
it, not me, he would need a reason or an alternate plan. If he was going to
be gone that evening, no big deal I would feed the goat. If he wanted to
finish a game, so what do it later. If he just didn't want to, we would
talk about his responsibility to the animal and if it continued to be a
problem and no one in the family was willing to take on the resonsibility, I
would seriously consider selling the animal. It deserves better.
Julie S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When you say it the way you posted and the way your first line reads it comes
across much firmer than your examples below. Black mail is a good one also.
Laura
******************************************
<<<Well, actually, I never said the kids had required chores. I said they
HAVE
to help out or there isn't time for extra fun stuff. When another poster
stated that, a responding post called it a "head game", like some sort of
black mail.
To be honest, it would depend on what I had asked the kids to do as to how I
would take a "no" response. If I had asked Zach to mow (he likes to ride
the mower), it wouldn't be a big deal, so what.
If I asked him to pick up his stuff out of the living room, I would want to
know why not, like is he still playing with it, does he have some plan I
don't know about, etc..
If I reminded him to feed the goat that he begged me for and is getting
ribbons and money from youth contests who believe that he is taking care of
it, not me, he would need a reason or an alternate plan. If he was going to
be gone that evening, no big deal I would feed the goat. If he wanted to
finish a game, so what do it later. If he just didn't want to, we would
talk about his responsibility to the animal and if it continued to be a
problem and no one in the family was willing to take on the resonsibility, I
would seriously consider selling the animal. It deserves better.
Julie S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
The goats started as my daughter's 4-H project. She fell in love with them
and so did I. It has been something we have done together. I feed and milk
in the mornings because my daughter likes to sleep late and she feeds them
in the evenings. As part of the 4-H project, she shows the goats in shows,
earns hundreds of dollars competing against other youth throughout the
state. In my mind, it would be cheating if I took care of the goats and the
kids competed in contests against other kids. The entire point is the kids
are supposed to do it.
Zach wanted to go to get the money. He begged to show animals. I was
unsure that he was ready for the responsibility but he was sure he was. So
we got the goat. She is not a good milker, not a particularly good breed
doe. She does cost a fair amount to feed each month. Zach loved the money
and ribbons. Got to where he didn't want to go out to feed her. I already
did all the cleaning of stalls, hoof care, etc.. Zach was well aware of
what was involved because his sister and I had had goats for several years.
So after talking with Zach, where he repeatedly agreed that he should
partake in Belle's care if he wanted to win contests based on his care of
her, he repeatedly would stall, whine, etc. about feeding her. So we talked
and I took over all of her care and Zach quit participating in the contests.
Then Adriane came home with some big money and Zach was all ready to show
goats again. I attempted to talk him out of it, reminding him of how he
enjoyed the money but not the work. He repeatedly said that he was now
ready. So Belle was returned to his care and to his credit, Zach has done
well. No complaining.
I would consider selling Belle because she isn't a goat that adds to the
herd and we are now a money making enterprize. I am not interested in
having a pet goat.
Zach is almost 11. He has several other animals that he has cared for for
several years, no problem. If goats aren't his thing, that's fine. If
someone else in the family chooses to take on that responsibility, that's
fine. It's not something I would choose to take on.
It is no different than if your son was taking piano lessons and he never
wanted to go to his lessons or to touch the piano. I doubt you would want
to keep paying the teacher.
Julie S.
and so did I. It has been something we have done together. I feed and milk
in the mornings because my daughter likes to sleep late and she feeds them
in the evenings. As part of the 4-H project, she shows the goats in shows,
earns hundreds of dollars competing against other youth throughout the
state. In my mind, it would be cheating if I took care of the goats and the
kids competed in contests against other kids. The entire point is the kids
are supposed to do it.
Zach wanted to go to get the money. He begged to show animals. I was
unsure that he was ready for the responsibility but he was sure he was. So
we got the goat. She is not a good milker, not a particularly good breed
doe. She does cost a fair amount to feed each month. Zach loved the money
and ribbons. Got to where he didn't want to go out to feed her. I already
did all the cleaning of stalls, hoof care, etc.. Zach was well aware of
what was involved because his sister and I had had goats for several years.
So after talking with Zach, where he repeatedly agreed that he should
partake in Belle's care if he wanted to win contests based on his care of
her, he repeatedly would stall, whine, etc. about feeding her. So we talked
and I took over all of her care and Zach quit participating in the contests.
Then Adriane came home with some big money and Zach was all ready to show
goats again. I attempted to talk him out of it, reminding him of how he
enjoyed the money but not the work. He repeatedly said that he was now
ready. So Belle was returned to his care and to his credit, Zach has done
well. No complaining.
I would consider selling Belle because she isn't a goat that adds to the
herd and we are now a money making enterprize. I am not interested in
having a pet goat.
Zach is almost 11. He has several other animals that he has cared for for
several years, no problem. If goats aren't his thing, that's fine. If
someone else in the family chooses to take on that responsibility, that's
fine. It's not something I would choose to take on.
It is no different than if your son was taking piano lessons and he never
wanted to go to his lessons or to touch the piano. I doubt you would want
to keep paying the teacher.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "averyschmidt" <patti.schmidt2@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:56 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: responsibility etc.
> > If I reminded him to feed the goat that he begged me for and is
> getting
> > ribbons and money from youth contests who believe that he is
> taking care of
> > it, not me, he would need a reason or an alternate plan. If he
> was going to
> > be gone that evening, no big deal I would feed the goat. If he
> wanted to
> > finish a game, so what do it later. If he just didn't want to, we
> would
> > talk about his responsibility to the animal and if it continued to
> be a
> > problem and no one in the family was willing to take on the
> resonsibility, I
> > would seriously consider selling the animal. It deserves better.
>
> I just read in another post that you have something like 13 goats
> which you feed and take care of, as well as other animals.
> Why would feeding one extra goat (your son's) such a huge difference
> in your routine that you'd need to sell that one goat- the one your
> son begged for? Why would he need to beg for one in the first place
> if you already had 13 of them? How old is your son?
>
> Patti
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<Not making my kids "do chores" doesn't mean they never clean. They do>>
I don't want to sound like my kids NEVER help out, they do. Usually not
cleaning house but Adriane often watches the little kids for me, Zach enjoys
mowing the lawn, Marsie likes to cook, the little kids like to help whatever
I'm doing.
That was never the intent of any of my posts. Only that they understand
that if they don't help out, there is less time for fun stuff.
Not in an ugly way, but in a "there is only so much time in a day" way.
Julie S.
I don't want to sound like my kids NEVER help out, they do. Usually not
cleaning house but Adriane often watches the little kids for me, Zach enjoys
mowing the lawn, Marsie likes to cook, the little kids like to help whatever
I'm doing.
That was never the intent of any of my posts. Only that they understand
that if they don't help out, there is less time for fun stuff.
Not in an ugly way, but in a "there is only so much time in a day" way.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: responsibility etc.
> <<Not making my kids eat doesn't mean my kids don't eat. They do.
> Not teaching my kids to read didn't mean my kids didn't learn to read.
They
>
> did.
> Not making my kids turn the TV off didn't mean my kids never turned it
off.
>
> They do.
> Not making my kids "do chores" doesn't mean they never help clean. They
> do.>>
>
>
> Jayn is recently 4. She has little interest in putting her toys away. I
ask
> if I can do it and invite her to help me. She sometimes does, but usually
I
> do it for her. Sometimes she asks me to leave the things out because she
is
> going back to them. Sometimes she helps to just move the pile out of the
> walkway.
>
> However she loves cleaning. Yesterday, after I cooked breakfast, she
cleaned
> all the surfaces in the kitchen with a soapy wet scrubbing brush and a
damp
> cloth to rinse. Then she put the cloth in the laundry basket I keep in the
> kitchen for that purpose. It was all her own idea. I left her to it, and
she
> did a perfectly good job. She also likes to dust with the Swiffer dusters
> that give you a new plastic holder every time you buy the fluffy duster
> pads. Electrostatic cling helps a lot. We have fun together and apart.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
averyschmidt
> If he is entering the goat in any kind of show or contest, it'sexpected
> that he's the one looking after it. If he doesn't look after it,he
> wouldn't deserve the prizes and money.I realize that about the contest part, but what I was questioning in
her post was this:
"If he just didn't want to, we would
talk about his responsibility to the animal and if it continued to
be a
problem and no one in the family was willing to take on the
resonsibility, I
would seriously consider selling the animal. It deserves better."
I understand why she'd point out that if he wasn't willing to care
for the goat himself then he couldn't enter any goat care contests.
But I still don't see why she'd have to sell the animal due to an
inability to care for it if there are already 13 goats being cared
for. If goat care is a part of the routine already, then what's one
more if that particular goat is important to her son? That's what I
was wondering.
Patti
J. Stauffer
<<it comes across much firmer than your examples now>>
Someone posted a bit back about how we see information through our own
experiential filters. I grew up in a very flexible home but I always had
"chores". Stuff that I needed to get done, stuff I was responsible for. I
never had the chore chart and a mother standing over me with a whip. Just
stuff that needed to get done. My mom worked full-time and had 3 kids. My
dad worked 2 and often 3 jobs. Stuff just needed to be done.
That is the filter I see things through. If the kids want to have time to
go to the movies, they HAVE to help me out. If they don't want to go, then
I guess it is really a moot point. But I'm not holding it over their heads,
trying to force them to be a certain way. It is just the way things are.
Perhaps if I had grown up in a family such as many here describe with
intimidation, meanness, etc., the connotations of the word "chore" would be
different for me. Perhaps the connotation of "having to do something before
there is time to do something else" would have a different connotation. I
don't know.
Julie S.
Someone posted a bit back about how we see information through our own
experiential filters. I grew up in a very flexible home but I always had
"chores". Stuff that I needed to get done, stuff I was responsible for. I
never had the chore chart and a mother standing over me with a whip. Just
stuff that needed to get done. My mom worked full-time and had 3 kids. My
dad worked 2 and often 3 jobs. Stuff just needed to be done.
That is the filter I see things through. If the kids want to have time to
go to the movies, they HAVE to help me out. If they don't want to go, then
I guess it is really a moot point. But I'm not holding it over their heads,
trying to force them to be a certain way. It is just the way things are.
Perhaps if I had grown up in a family such as many here describe with
intimidation, meanness, etc., the connotations of the word "chore" would be
different for me. Perhaps the connotation of "having to do something before
there is time to do something else" would have a different connotation. I
don't know.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <HMSL2@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: responsibility etc.
> I said head games.
> When you say it the way you posted and the way your first line reads it
comes
> across much firmer than your examples below. Black mail is a good one
also.
> Laura
> ******************************************
> <<<Well, actually, I never said the kids had required chores. I said they
> HAVE
> to help out or there isn't time for extra fun stuff. When another poster
> stated that, a responding post called it a "head game", like some sort of
> black mail.
>
> To be honest, it would depend on what I had asked the kids to do as to how
I
> would take a "no" response. If I had asked Zach to mow (he likes to ride
> the mower), it wouldn't be a big deal, so what.
>
> If I asked him to pick up his stuff out of the living room, I would want
to
> know why not, like is he still playing with it, does he have some plan I
> don't know about, etc..
>
> If I reminded him to feed the goat that he begged me for and is getting
> ribbons and money from youth contests who believe that he is taking care
of
> it, not me, he would need a reason or an alternate plan. If he was going
to
> be gone that evening, no big deal I would feed the goat. If he wanted to
> finish a game, so what do it later. If he just didn't want to, we would
> talk about his responsibility to the animal and if it continued to be a
> problem and no one in the family was willing to take on the resonsibility,
I
> would seriously consider selling the animal. It deserves better.
>
> Julie S.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
averyschmidt
> It is no different than if your son was taking piano lessons andhe never
> wanted to go to his lessons or to touch the piano. I doubt youwould want
> to keep paying the teacher.There would be no reason to pay a teacher if he didn't want
lessons. But that doesn't mean I'd have to sell the piano too.
I had the impression that your son wanted the goat but just wasn't
ready for the responsibility of caring for it. If he doesn't have
any attachment to the goat at all (I was assuming he did, sorry) and
really just wants to make money, then I guess what I'd do is help
him find a more enjoyable (to him) way to earn some.
Patti
averyschmidt
> That is the filter I see things through. If the kids want to havetime to
> go to the movies, they HAVE to help me out.What, specifically, are the household tasks that absolutely have to
be done before you can all take in a movie? I can't imagine
anything that urgent. Sure, it's much more pleasant (for the mom
anyway) to come home to a clean house/empty sink/folded laundry when
the movie's over, but that's not a HAVE to situation I don't think.
That's a preference situation. Unless I'm missing something.
Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/11/03 09:00:49 PM Central Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
The goats started as my daughter's 4-H project. She fell in love with them
and so did I. It has been something we have done together. I feed and milk
in the mornings because my daughter likes to sleep late and she feeds them
in the evenings. As part of the 4-H project, she shows the goats in shows,
earns hundreds of dollars competing against other youth throughout the
state. In my mind, it would be cheating if I took care of the goats and the
kids competed in contests against other kids. The entire point is the kids
are supposed to do it.
################
I understand that the point of the contests (I'm assuming 4-H or some other
county/state type ag. thing) is to introduce, educate, and allow for ownership
and all its rewards. But you have this agreement with your daughter where she
is sleeping in and you are doing things for her that allow her to have show
quality goats where she wins awards, ribbons and money, based on what she does,
yet you are doing some of the work. You said it yourself that the point is
that the kids are supposed to do it. Why then the push for your son to do just
the opposite to get the same gratification as his sister?
################
Zach wanted to go to get the money. He begged to show animals. I was
unsure that he was ready for the responsibility but he was sure he was. So
we got the goat. She is not a good milker, not a particularly good breed
doe. She does cost a fair amount to feed each month. Zach loved the money
and ribbons. Got to where he didn't want to go out to feed her. I already
did all the cleaning of stalls, hoof care, etc.. Zach was well aware of
what was involved because his sister and I had had goats for several years.
#################
If the goat isn't a good addition then why not sell her and buy another that
would be? If your son is aware of the time and energy it takes to care for the
goat, yet still doesn't then why not sell? But if he is aware of all of the
above, yet you help his sister but expect him to go at it "all by himself"
because of the above point, then I don't get it. Why help his sister and not him?
Why does she get to reap the rewards and get to sleep in and he doesn't?
#################
So after talking with Zach, where he repeatedly agreed that he should
partake in Belle's care if he wanted to win contests based on his care of
her, he repeatedly would stall, whine, etc. about feeding her. So we talked
and I took over all of her care and Zach quit participating in the contests.
##################
If I were a child, I would stall and whine too if someone else was getting
the better deal too. His sister gets to sleep in, he is expected to care for the
goat. You state that you do all the hoof care and grooming for your
daughter's and your goats, but you expect him to follow standards other than that. She
gets to take the animals to fair's and brings home awards and money for work
you have done and he doesn't. Exactly how fair is that?
##################
Then Adriane came home with some big money and Zach was all ready to show
goats again. I attempted to talk him out of it, reminding him of how he
enjoyed the money but not the work. He repeatedly said that he was now
ready. So Belle was returned to his care and to his credit, Zach has done
well. No complaining.
#################
Then if there is no complaining, what exactly is the problem? I'm confused.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
The goats started as my daughter's 4-H project. She fell in love with them
and so did I. It has been something we have done together. I feed and milk
in the mornings because my daughter likes to sleep late and she feeds them
in the evenings. As part of the 4-H project, she shows the goats in shows,
earns hundreds of dollars competing against other youth throughout the
state. In my mind, it would be cheating if I took care of the goats and the
kids competed in contests against other kids. The entire point is the kids
are supposed to do it.
################
I understand that the point of the contests (I'm assuming 4-H or some other
county/state type ag. thing) is to introduce, educate, and allow for ownership
and all its rewards. But you have this agreement with your daughter where she
is sleeping in and you are doing things for her that allow her to have show
quality goats where she wins awards, ribbons and money, based on what she does,
yet you are doing some of the work. You said it yourself that the point is
that the kids are supposed to do it. Why then the push for your son to do just
the opposite to get the same gratification as his sister?
################
Zach wanted to go to get the money. He begged to show animals. I was
unsure that he was ready for the responsibility but he was sure he was. So
we got the goat. She is not a good milker, not a particularly good breed
doe. She does cost a fair amount to feed each month. Zach loved the money
and ribbons. Got to where he didn't want to go out to feed her. I already
did all the cleaning of stalls, hoof care, etc.. Zach was well aware of
what was involved because his sister and I had had goats for several years.
#################
If the goat isn't a good addition then why not sell her and buy another that
would be? If your son is aware of the time and energy it takes to care for the
goat, yet still doesn't then why not sell? But if he is aware of all of the
above, yet you help his sister but expect him to go at it "all by himself"
because of the above point, then I don't get it. Why help his sister and not him?
Why does she get to reap the rewards and get to sleep in and he doesn't?
#################
So after talking with Zach, where he repeatedly agreed that he should
partake in Belle's care if he wanted to win contests based on his care of
her, he repeatedly would stall, whine, etc. about feeding her. So we talked
and I took over all of her care and Zach quit participating in the contests.
##################
If I were a child, I would stall and whine too if someone else was getting
the better deal too. His sister gets to sleep in, he is expected to care for the
goat. You state that you do all the hoof care and grooming for your
daughter's and your goats, but you expect him to follow standards other than that. She
gets to take the animals to fair's and brings home awards and money for work
you have done and he doesn't. Exactly how fair is that?
##################
Then Adriane came home with some big money and Zach was all ready to show
goats again. I attempted to talk him out of it, reminding him of how he
enjoyed the money but not the work. He repeatedly said that he was now
ready. So Belle was returned to his care and to his credit, Zach has done
well. No complaining.
#################
Then if there is no complaining, what exactly is the problem? I'm confused.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]