"Really" unschooling, principles, being, helping
[email protected]
<< <<I'd like to separate out, for this discussion, the matter of learning
from
the matter of chores. Learning is something that benefits the learner.
Chores are something that benefit the family.>> >>
I thought about this half a dozen times last night and this morning. And I
thought about the people saying "unschooling is..." or "unschoolers don't..."
A big part of me thinks you can separate chores and rules and food from
unschooling. I would accept someone saying they were unschooling if they never
imposed "lessons" and their kids were thriving intellectually.
The part of me with more practical experience about unschooling and the part
of me that remembers how many people have said or written "It wasn't working
until..." thinks that there is a natural progression toward relaxing parental
requirements and expectations.
If those who've spent years gradually getting unschooling to settle and
really work say that it worked better after they quit limiting TV and trying to
control kids' bedtimes and whatever all else, then it seems best to encourage
newer homeschoolers to move more quickly toward a proven set of advantages.
If we say "Hey, just mosey on this direction, trial and error, eventually
maybe you'll get there," some people will be happier. Some of the complaints
this list has had is about people being picky, pushy and strident. (Mostly ME
being picky, pushy and strident.)
But while I'm happy to volunteer my time to help people move quickly out of a
dangerous building, I'm way less happy to camp out by the door every day and
say "There's a way out. Just keep wandering around. Maybe you'll find it."
It doesn't seem to be as efficient or as pure a use of time as calling into
the building "Follow the lights on the floor; stay down low; don't stay in there
grounding your kids over chores and arguing about video games, Move! Move!
Move!"
And the counter argument might be some people don't WANT to move fast. The
building is dangerous in my estimation (and others') but it's not in imminent
danger of collapse.
If the building is the public school system and its evil clone,
school-at-home, it doesn't kill ALL its residents.
If the building is unschooling inquiry, where people come to ask for more
information, and come to see whether they think they can make their children's
lives better, then how long do they have? If a child is fourteen years old, the
parent only has three years to turn things around. I think they need to MOVE
on it, and change something every day.
If a child is four years old, the parent has a long time, but it only takes a
week or two to press reading lessons to the point that the child is afraid of
or doesn't like "reading." It might only take half an hour for a child to
decide math is hard or scary or that he's just not very smart.
Helping slowly and lightly isn't always much help. We might just get
someone partway understanding, and they kind of try it, and it mostly doesn't work
and we say "oh well, you tried." But why do that when we can offer some serious
, real, dynamic and profound ideas?
I woke up a couple of times thinking "Chores aren't really unschooling, some
people are going too far in their definition of what's 'real.'" Then I would
think that the change of soul and attitude that will really make unschooling
work at an unconscious level, at a molecular level, has to do with respect for
the child as a whole person.
So I swirly inside today.
As usual, we don't need a consensus. But I thought I would spread the swirl
around by defending both sides of the argument, and defending those who argue
them.
Sandra
from
the matter of chores. Learning is something that benefits the learner.
Chores are something that benefit the family.>> >>
I thought about this half a dozen times last night and this morning. And I
thought about the people saying "unschooling is..." or "unschoolers don't..."
A big part of me thinks you can separate chores and rules and food from
unschooling. I would accept someone saying they were unschooling if they never
imposed "lessons" and their kids were thriving intellectually.
The part of me with more practical experience about unschooling and the part
of me that remembers how many people have said or written "It wasn't working
until..." thinks that there is a natural progression toward relaxing parental
requirements and expectations.
If those who've spent years gradually getting unschooling to settle and
really work say that it worked better after they quit limiting TV and trying to
control kids' bedtimes and whatever all else, then it seems best to encourage
newer homeschoolers to move more quickly toward a proven set of advantages.
If we say "Hey, just mosey on this direction, trial and error, eventually
maybe you'll get there," some people will be happier. Some of the complaints
this list has had is about people being picky, pushy and strident. (Mostly ME
being picky, pushy and strident.)
But while I'm happy to volunteer my time to help people move quickly out of a
dangerous building, I'm way less happy to camp out by the door every day and
say "There's a way out. Just keep wandering around. Maybe you'll find it."
It doesn't seem to be as efficient or as pure a use of time as calling into
the building "Follow the lights on the floor; stay down low; don't stay in there
grounding your kids over chores and arguing about video games, Move! Move!
Move!"
And the counter argument might be some people don't WANT to move fast. The
building is dangerous in my estimation (and others') but it's not in imminent
danger of collapse.
If the building is the public school system and its evil clone,
school-at-home, it doesn't kill ALL its residents.
If the building is unschooling inquiry, where people come to ask for more
information, and come to see whether they think they can make their children's
lives better, then how long do they have? If a child is fourteen years old, the
parent only has three years to turn things around. I think they need to MOVE
on it, and change something every day.
If a child is four years old, the parent has a long time, but it only takes a
week or two to press reading lessons to the point that the child is afraid of
or doesn't like "reading." It might only take half an hour for a child to
decide math is hard or scary or that he's just not very smart.
Helping slowly and lightly isn't always much help. We might just get
someone partway understanding, and they kind of try it, and it mostly doesn't work
and we say "oh well, you tried." But why do that when we can offer some serious
, real, dynamic and profound ideas?
I woke up a couple of times thinking "Chores aren't really unschooling, some
people are going too far in their definition of what's 'real.'" Then I would
think that the change of soul and attitude that will really make unschooling
work at an unconscious level, at a molecular level, has to do with respect for
the child as a whole person.
So I swirly inside today.
As usual, we don't need a consensus. But I thought I would spread the swirl
around by defending both sides of the argument, and defending those who argue
them.
Sandra
catherine aceto
Ooooh, I loved that post!!
I agree with you that "I would accept someone saying they were unschooling if they never imposed "lessons" and their kids were thriving intellectually." I haven't been on this list (or any unschooling list) very long and dont' know any other unschoolers in real life -- so I have a question: does anyone here actually have unschooling work while controlling other aspects of their children's lifes? or know someone who does? It seems to me unlikely coming from where I do philsophically, but I have so little actual data to work with, I don't think I can really form an opinion. So I am genuinely curious about whether it does ever work.
I guess I look at it this way: I would accept someone saying they were "flying" if they just flapped their arms and took off into the air (as opposed to flying an airplane, helicopter etc.). It would fit the definition of flying -- it just isn't going to actually happen. So while it is a theorectically true possibility, it wouldn't be all that helpful to a list about ways to fly.
-Cat
I agree with you that "I would accept someone saying they were unschooling if they never imposed "lessons" and their kids were thriving intellectually." I haven't been on this list (or any unschooling list) very long and dont' know any other unschoolers in real life -- so I have a question: does anyone here actually have unschooling work while controlling other aspects of their children's lifes? or know someone who does? It seems to me unlikely coming from where I do philsophically, but I have so little actual data to work with, I don't think I can really form an opinion. So I am genuinely curious about whether it does ever work.
I guess I look at it this way: I would accept someone saying they were "flying" if they just flapped their arms and took off into the air (as opposed to flying an airplane, helicopter etc.). It would fit the definition of flying -- it just isn't going to actually happen. So while it is a theorectically true possibility, it wouldn't be all that helpful to a list about ways to fly.
-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:29 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "Really" unschooling, principles, being, helping
<< <<I'd like to separate out, for this discussion, the matter of learning
from
the matter of chores. Learning is something that benefits the learner.
Chores are something that benefit the family.>> >>
I thought about this half a dozen times last night and this morning. And I
thought about the people saying "unschooling is..." or "unschoolers don't..."
A big part of me thinks you can separate chores and rules and food from
unschooling. I would accept someone saying they were unschooling if they never
imposed "lessons" and their kids were thriving intellectually.
The part of me with more practical experience about unschooling and the part
of me that remembers how many people have said or written "It wasn't working
until..." thinks that there is a natural progression toward relaxing parental
requirements and expectations.
If those who've spent years gradually getting unschooling to settle and
really work say that it worked better after they quit limiting TV and trying to
control kids' bedtimes and whatever all else, then it seems best to encourage
newer homeschoolers to move more quickly toward a proven set of advantages.
If we say "Hey, just mosey on this direction, trial and error, eventually
maybe you'll get there," some people will be happier. Some of the complaints
this list has had is about people being picky, pushy and strident. (Mostly ME
being picky, pushy and strident.)
But while I'm happy to volunteer my time to help people move quickly out of a
dangerous building, I'm way less happy to camp out by the door every day and
say "There's a way out. Just keep wandering around. Maybe you'll find it."
It doesn't seem to be as efficient or as pure a use of time as calling into
the building "Follow the lights on the floor; stay down low; don't stay in there
grounding your kids over chores and arguing about video games, Move! Move!
Move!"
And the counter argument might be some people don't WANT to move fast. The
building is dangerous in my estimation (and others') but it's not in imminent
danger of collapse.
If the building is the public school system and its evil clone,
school-at-home, it doesn't kill ALL its residents.
If the building is unschooling inquiry, where people come to ask for more
information, and come to see whether they think they can make their children's
lives better, then how long do they have? If a child is fourteen years old, the
parent only has three years to turn things around. I think they need to MOVE
on it, and change something every day.
If a child is four years old, the parent has a long time, but it only takes a
week or two to press reading lessons to the point that the child is afraid of
or doesn't like "reading." It might only take half an hour for a child to
decide math is hard or scary or that he's just not very smart.
Helping slowly and lightly isn't always much help. We might just get
someone partway understanding, and they kind of try it, and it mostly doesn't work
and we say "oh well, you tried." But why do that when we can offer some serious
, real, dynamic and profound ideas?
I woke up a couple of times thinking "Chores aren't really unschooling, some
people are going too far in their definition of what's 'real.'" Then I would
think that the change of soul and attitude that will really make unschooling
work at an unconscious level, at a molecular level, has to do with respect for
the child as a whole person.
So I swirly inside today.
As usual, we don't need a consensus. But I thought I would spread the swirl
around by defending both sides of the argument, and defending those who argue
them.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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In a message dated 11/10/2003 8:35:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
dangerous building, I'm way less happy to camp out by the door every day and
say "There's a way out. Just keep wandering around. Maybe you'll find it."
It doesn't seem to be as efficient or as pure a use of time as calling into
the building "Follow the lights on the floor; stay down low; don't stay in
there
grounding your kids over chores and arguing about video games, Move! Move!
Move!" <<<
************************************
And honestly, Sandra, isn't it easier to help someone who WANTS to move
quickly, who WANTS to make a drastic change and really listen to people who have
spent years figuring it out? Although many people may come here and to other
unschooling forums wanting help, I would think it's much harder to explain
things over and over to someone who wants cling to school at home, grounding,
rewards and punishments, etc.
on it, and change something every day.<<<
***********************************
This is where I'm at, only in addition to a 15 year old and 5 more children
younger than that, I have a 17 yo who's getting ready to go off to college, and
an almost 20 year old who left before I opened my eyes to non-controlling
parenting. I guess I shouldn't beat myself up too much over her, because the
last year or so I just quit asking her to get her books done, and she actually
WAS unschooling herself.
But on the night I realized she was moving out I laid in bed and bawled and
bawled...I just felt like there was so much not done yet. I spent much of her
life, with me blowing up over something, or charting chores, or spanking, or
nagging over schoolwork, and telling myself over and over, "It'll get
better..." Suddenly, I was waking up to the fact that time was up, I couldn't make
right things I had done wrong...she was leaving. Forget the wandering aimlessly
looking for a way out. It will not be fast enough whatever age a child
is...human nature is to put off until tomorrow. Please don't stop urging people to
MOVE MOVE MOVE!!
I'm happy to say my daughter and I have an awesome relationship now. I just,
plain, LOVE HER and accept whatever she wants to do with her life. She
didn't go to college (has no desire to), waits tables in town at a Mexican
restaurant, and lives with a guy she works with, and is HAPPY. She has learned
Spanish like I never could have taught her and now speaks it fluently, and is going
to Mexico for an extended vacation to work with her bosses mother at a resort.
What an opportunity!
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
>>>But while I'm happy to volunteer my time to help people move quickly outof a
dangerous building, I'm way less happy to camp out by the door every day and
say "There's a way out. Just keep wandering around. Maybe you'll find it."
It doesn't seem to be as efficient or as pure a use of time as calling into
the building "Follow the lights on the floor; stay down low; don't stay in
there
grounding your kids over chores and arguing about video games, Move! Move!
Move!" <<<
************************************
And honestly, Sandra, isn't it easier to help someone who WANTS to move
quickly, who WANTS to make a drastic change and really listen to people who have
spent years figuring it out? Although many people may come here and to other
unschooling forums wanting help, I would think it's much harder to explain
things over and over to someone who wants cling to school at home, grounding,
rewards and punishments, etc.
>>>If a child is fourteen years old, theparent only has three years to turn things around. I think they need to MOVE
on it, and change something every day.<<<
***********************************
This is where I'm at, only in addition to a 15 year old and 5 more children
younger than that, I have a 17 yo who's getting ready to go off to college, and
an almost 20 year old who left before I opened my eyes to non-controlling
parenting. I guess I shouldn't beat myself up too much over her, because the
last year or so I just quit asking her to get her books done, and she actually
WAS unschooling herself.
But on the night I realized she was moving out I laid in bed and bawled and
bawled...I just felt like there was so much not done yet. I spent much of her
life, with me blowing up over something, or charting chores, or spanking, or
nagging over schoolwork, and telling myself over and over, "It'll get
better..." Suddenly, I was waking up to the fact that time was up, I couldn't make
right things I had done wrong...she was leaving. Forget the wandering aimlessly
looking for a way out. It will not be fast enough whatever age a child
is...human nature is to put off until tomorrow. Please don't stop urging people to
MOVE MOVE MOVE!!
I'm happy to say my daughter and I have an awesome relationship now. I just,
plain, LOVE HER and accept whatever she wants to do with her life. She
didn't go to college (has no desire to), waits tables in town at a Mexican
restaurant, and lives with a guy she works with, and is HAPPY. She has learned
Spanish like I never could have taught her and now speaks it fluently, and is going
to Mexico for an extended vacation to work with her bosses mother at a resort.
What an opportunity!
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/11/03 2:18:27 AM, CelticFrau@... writes:
<<But on the night I realized she was moving out I laid in bed and bawled and
bawled...I just felt like there was so much not done yet. I spent much of
her
life, with me blowing up over something, or charting chores, or spanking, or
nagging over schoolwork, and telling myself over and over, "It'll get
better..." Suddenly, I was waking up to the fact that time was up, I
couldn't make
right things I had done wrong...she was leaving. Forget the wandering
aimlessly
looking for a way out. It will not be fast enough whatever age a child
is...human nature is to put off until tomorrow.>>
That is sobering and sad. I'm glad your relationship with her now is warm
and good.
<< Although many people may come here and to other
unschooling forums wanting help, I would think it's much harder to explain
things over and over to someone who wants cling to school at home, grounding,
rewards and punishments, etc. >>
It's a total waste of time with some of them. Some come here in hopes that
we will, one way or another, support and help solidify their own views. Either
they want to think the half-hearted thing they're kinda thinking of doing is
unschooling, or they want to "prove" that unschooling parents are just lazy,
"permissive" parents whose children will be drug addicts on welfare.
But sometimes one comes from that corner and DOES "get saved" so it's worth
keeping on.
<<I'm happy to say my daughter and I have an awesome relationship now. I
just,
plain, LOVE HER and accept whatever she wants to do with her life. She
didn't go to college (has no desire to), waits tables in town at a Mexican
restaurant, and lives with a guy she works with, and is HAPPY. She has
learned
Spanish like I never could have taught her and now speaks it fluently, and is
going
to Mexico for an extended vacation to work with her bosses mother at a
resort.
What an opportunity!>>
That is so cool. She got paid to learn Spanish! <bwg>
Sandra
<<But on the night I realized she was moving out I laid in bed and bawled and
bawled...I just felt like there was so much not done yet. I spent much of
her
life, with me blowing up over something, or charting chores, or spanking, or
nagging over schoolwork, and telling myself over and over, "It'll get
better..." Suddenly, I was waking up to the fact that time was up, I
couldn't make
right things I had done wrong...she was leaving. Forget the wandering
aimlessly
looking for a way out. It will not be fast enough whatever age a child
is...human nature is to put off until tomorrow.>>
That is sobering and sad. I'm glad your relationship with her now is warm
and good.
<< Although many people may come here and to other
unschooling forums wanting help, I would think it's much harder to explain
things over and over to someone who wants cling to school at home, grounding,
rewards and punishments, etc. >>
It's a total waste of time with some of them. Some come here in hopes that
we will, one way or another, support and help solidify their own views. Either
they want to think the half-hearted thing they're kinda thinking of doing is
unschooling, or they want to "prove" that unschooling parents are just lazy,
"permissive" parents whose children will be drug addicts on welfare.
But sometimes one comes from that corner and DOES "get saved" so it's worth
keeping on.
<<I'm happy to say my daughter and I have an awesome relationship now. I
just,
plain, LOVE HER and accept whatever she wants to do with her life. She
didn't go to college (has no desire to), waits tables in town at a Mexican
restaurant, and lives with a guy she works with, and is HAPPY. She has
learned
Spanish like I never could have taught her and now speaks it fluently, and is
going
to Mexico for an extended vacation to work with her bosses mother at a
resort.
What an opportunity!>>
That is so cool. She got paid to learn Spanish! <bwg>
Sandra