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In a message dated 11/8/03 2:13:02 AM, TeresaBnNC@... writes:

<< Basically, anywhere in public, where folks would assume neglectful
parenting if they
saw the way your kid was dressed/smelled. >>

I would say "People will think I'm a bad mom if you wear a dirty shirt, so
please change."

<<Just out of curiousity.. what would you have done if he didnt change his
shirt?>>

It wouldn't happen. If he asked me to do something for him, I would do it.
Because of that, when I ask him to do something for me, he does it, or he
convinces me why it's not a good idea. Because I really listen to them, they
really listent to me.

<< You are lucky that your boys
changed/showered/cleaned up when you gently suggested it. I don't think it
is the same as what some folks here are experiencing.. >>

The relationship I have developed with my children is the reason unschooling
works, and it's the reason they don't watch TV all the time--we don't have a
homelife they need to escape from. It's the reason they don't eat all the
time--they don't need food to feel comforted. It's the reason all the things we
talk about work, because of the respect we have shown our children.

I know parents whose reminders to their children take the form of shaming, or
making fun of them, or downright insulting them. If a mother gives an
ultimatum like "We're not leaving this house until you take a shower," they're
talking about MUCH more than a shower. They're saying the child has the power to
ruin the day. They're saying the mother MUST have her way. They're saying the
child is small and stinky. How, in that situation, can the child feel big
or right or kind or good?

<<And, yes, Im sure many of them need some gentle guidance
and reminders to shower and freshen up.. but we are talking about resisting
hygiene all together. If that were the case, what would you do?
>>

I don't believe that is what we are talking about. But then again, I never
"taught hygiene" to my children. They picked the word up elsewhere. Just as
I never used the term "education" so they couldn't resist it, and I didn't
use the term "mathematics," so they couldn't reject it, there is no category of
life called "hygiene" that they reject.

There are many things we do, but they're separate and not categorized
together. Laundry, taking out trash, brushing teeth, having good soap and shampoo in
each shower, having clean towels, changing bedsheets (which happens rarely
with Kirby's bed but more often with the other two who don't use their beds for
storage areas)--those things are done because it feels good to have clean
teeth, to smell clean sheets, to be able to throw something in the trash from a
distance without it bouncing back out, etc. Individual things, individual good
reasons.

Why would they reject what feels good to them?

But we all know why a child who feels powerless and beat down will reject
what his mother wants him to do, especially if it's the twelfth thing that day
she's "making him do."

<< I know that I always gently suggest some "hygiene" .. several times..
before I get to the insisting.. >>

Perhaps you've set up a situation where you're going to be the winner and
he's going to be the loser.

I've thought about this a lot, even before I had my own children, when I was
raising others and when I was teaching, when I looked at my friends who lied
and rebelled (I didn't) and at those who didn't lie, who were comfortable in
their own homes.

http://sandradodd.com/respect

http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html

http://sandradodd.com/fullofyourself

http://www.unschooling.com/library/essays/essay06.shtml


You don't start with forcing them to shower and then building a better
relationship after you've broken their will. You start building a better
relationship so they will think showers are fun and that being nice to mom is natural.

Sandra

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Yep. Exactly so.

The way Sandra put this reminded me of a counseling session I had with
a sports psychologist last year. I was working on my "head game" and looking
for ways to focus and better shut out distractions during play.

He said I didn't need more focus because I was already OVER-focusing,
which is why I could barely tolerate any disturbance. He suggested a sort of
self-hypnosis technique I could use during play involving phrases I would focus
on, like "cool head" or "warm heart" -- anyway, as he had me close my eyes
and began to teach me the technique, I was greatly amused to note that the first
(well-modulated) words out of his professional mouth were, "Only if you want
to, and whenever you feel like it, you can ..."

I asked him about this later, and he explained that the main problem
with helping people who feel like they can or should do things well, is
overcoming their well-developed resistance to any interference, even if it's really
just "help" and even if it's coming from people who love them, even sometimes
when it comes from voices in their own heads!

So what works is if every time, you start by sort of verbally showing
your belly in a submissive way, making it clear that there's no reason for
resistance to rise. Then the message can get through in a win-win way. If you
start off by making it a directive, even a positive one, resistance is
subconsciously aroused.

I never used the specific sports technique he was trying to teach me
but I do have a new way of getting through (even to myself!) now. Maybe it's
just the strange way my mind works, but it seems to me like another way of
expressing the effect Sandra describes below. JJ

SandraDodd@... writes:


> I don't believe that is what we are talking about. But then again, I
> never
> "taught hygiene" to my children. They picked the word up elsewhere. Just
> as
> I never used the term "education" so they couldn't resist it, and I didn't
> use the term "mathematics," so they couldn't reject it, there is no category
> of
> life called "hygiene" that they reject.
>



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