Re: Homeschooling Article
[email protected]
Sandra's objection to this particular article as propaganda that
shouldn't be posted here is not one I share. I personally find all this interesting
-- not threatening -- to think about and discuss, among those with a true
unschooling attitude. But there's no need for Sandra to persuade me that
religious and political posturing can taint the good will in any environment. That's
a truth no one can dispute!
Thank goodness I am not responsible for moderating more than a
thousand people here in this wonderful environment so full of good will. I will
gladly defer to the judgment of those who are -- not about truth or history or
politics or religion, but about this list. :) JJ
(Sandra wrote:)
That sounds good, but an article written by and for fundamentalist
Christians isn't a good article for other kinds of people to promote
to others. They are basically passing a social virus without
realizing it.
And if a new homeschooler reads that and passes it on as if it is
truth, then untruth is being spread unknowingly.
I don't think people should pass it on because it contains information
which is false. It doesn't matter to me if down in there is a good
point.
I promise NEVER to serve any of you ANY lemonade in which a turd is
floating. A little falsehood will mar a load of truth, but that
article is a load of falsehood "supporting" a little truth.
And that "truth"--that learning can happen without a curriculum, and
that saying "We don't go to school" is better than we "school" at
home--is what this list is already about. So let's put the untruth
and propaganda back outside of this list and go on with our normal
business.
Those who are homeschooling for religious and political purposes know
full well there are better lists for them to be on, and this list
doesn't need religious or political propaganda. It doesn't make it
easier for anyone to understand unschool
shouldn't be posted here is not one I share. I personally find all this interesting
-- not threatening -- to think about and discuss, among those with a true
unschooling attitude. But there's no need for Sandra to persuade me that
religious and political posturing can taint the good will in any environment. That's
a truth no one can dispute!
Thank goodness I am not responsible for moderating more than a
thousand people here in this wonderful environment so full of good will. I will
gladly defer to the judgment of those who are -- not about truth or history or
politics or religion, but about this list. :) JJ
(Sandra wrote:)
That sounds good, but an article written by and for fundamentalist
Christians isn't a good article for other kinds of people to promote
to others. They are basically passing a social virus without
realizing it.
And if a new homeschooler reads that and passes it on as if it is
truth, then untruth is being spread unknowingly.
I don't think people should pass it on because it contains information
which is false. It doesn't matter to me if down in there is a good
point.
I promise NEVER to serve any of you ANY lemonade in which a turd is
floating. A little falsehood will mar a load of truth, but that
article is a load of falsehood "supporting" a little truth.
And that "truth"--that learning can happen without a curriculum, and
that saying "We don't go to school" is better than we "school" at
home--is what this list is already about. So let's put the untruth
and propaganda back outside of this list and go on with our normal
business.
Those who are homeschooling for religious and political purposes know
full well there are better lists for them to be on, and this list
doesn't need religious or political propaganda. It doesn't make it
easier for anyone to understand unschool
[email protected]
-=-Sandra's objection to this particular article as propaganda that
shouldn't be posted here is not one I share. -=-
It wasn't an objection to it having been brought to the list in the first
place. It was after than, when someone said "Oooh, I want to post that on my
webpage" and someone else said "I want to print that out for my husband!" that it
seemed important to stress that it has more fallacy than objectivity.
Sandra
shouldn't be posted here is not one I share. -=-
It wasn't an objection to it having been brought to the list in the first
place. It was after than, when someone said "Oooh, I want to post that on my
webpage" and someone else said "I want to print that out for my husband!" that it
seemed important to stress that it has more fallacy than objectivity.
Sandra
Stepheny Cappel
I actually enjoyed Sandra pulling apart that post for me. I know she didn't do it personally for me, but I could see where she's coming from. I started to read the first article and then started skimming quickly because it's yada, yada, yada, to me. I started homeschooling on the whole religious precept and have WOW gradually thought what is going on here. So thanks Sandra, it worked for me. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<I actually enjoyed Sandra pulling apart that post for me. I know she
didn't do it personally for me, but I could see where she's coming from.
I started to read the first article and then started skimming quickly
because it's yada, yada, yada, to me. I started homeschooling on the
whole religious precept and have WOW gradually thought what is going on
here. So thanks Sandra, it worked for me. Stepheny>>
Thankyou, yes this was exactly my reaction when I started to read that
article. It was immediately clear to me that the history was bogus, so I
stopped. It was not until after Sandra and Nancy posted that I thought I
had better force my way through the whole thing. I think the second half
about returning to the family would stand on its own without the
faux-history of the homeschooling movement introduction, if people are
determined to pass it on to their spouses etc.
That being said, I would not have known about the white supremacist
jargon (rather than just some catch phrase invented by the author) if I
hadn't been informed of it, simply because it is outside of my
experience. It is interesting how seemingly innocuous phrases take on a
different meaning when you realize they have been co-opted by that kind
of political extremism. I appreciate being warned about it.
When I see articles that have as part of their theme "The Collapse of
the Family" and "The Loss of the Father" I get wary. These are emotive
sweeping generalizations. I refuse to believe that the family has
collapsed.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg.htm
This fun (well I think this stuff is fun) website is about
the National Survey on Family Growth. It has lots of detailed stats on
marriages and remarriages. Marriage sure does seem popular. Contrary to
the notion that half of all new marriages end in divorce, these
statistics show it will be only 33% (one third) after 10 years. There
are statistics about remarriage after divorce too. That seems to say
that the majority of people stay married, or want to be married.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
didn't do it personally for me, but I could see where she's coming from.
I started to read the first article and then started skimming quickly
because it's yada, yada, yada, to me. I started homeschooling on the
whole religious precept and have WOW gradually thought what is going on
here. So thanks Sandra, it worked for me. Stepheny>>
Thankyou, yes this was exactly my reaction when I started to read that
article. It was immediately clear to me that the history was bogus, so I
stopped. It was not until after Sandra and Nancy posted that I thought I
had better force my way through the whole thing. I think the second half
about returning to the family would stand on its own without the
faux-history of the homeschooling movement introduction, if people are
determined to pass it on to their spouses etc.
That being said, I would not have known about the white supremacist
jargon (rather than just some catch phrase invented by the author) if I
hadn't been informed of it, simply because it is outside of my
experience. It is interesting how seemingly innocuous phrases take on a
different meaning when you realize they have been co-opted by that kind
of political extremism. I appreciate being warned about it.
When I see articles that have as part of their theme "The Collapse of
the Family" and "The Loss of the Father" I get wary. These are emotive
sweeping generalizations. I refuse to believe that the family has
collapsed.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg.htm
This fun (well I think this stuff is fun) website is about
the National Survey on Family Growth. It has lots of detailed stats on
marriages and remarriages. Marriage sure does seem popular. Contrary to
the notion that half of all new marriages end in divorce, these
statistics show it will be only 33% (one third) after 10 years. There
are statistics about remarriage after divorce too. That seems to say
that the majority of people stay married, or want to be married.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shyrley
Posted this after people's comments about those hoemschooled kids being
neglected. It doesn't say if the children went to school or not but they
were visited reguarly by a social worker and still nowt was done....
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=39399
9§ion=news
U.S. couple charged with starving four boys
Sun 26 October, 2003 18:32 BST
PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A New Jersey couple face charges of starving their
four adopted sons, aged 9 to 19.
The boys, who suffered from stunted growth, rotten teeth and distended
bellies, were surviving by supplementing their meagre diet of uncooked
pancake batter and oatmeal with chips of paint and pieces of wall
insulation, authorities said on Sunday.
Meanwhile, a state case worker made regular visits to the home in the
Philadelphia suburb of Collingswood, New Jersey.
Their conditions came to light when neighbours phoned police after seeing
the 19-year-old rummaging through their trash can. Officers discovered that
the teen-ager weighed only 45 pounds (20 kg). His adoptive siblings -- aged
9, 10 and 14 -- weighed as little as 23 pounds (10 kg).
"It really strikes at the heart of anyone that has any sense of compassion.
And, quite frankly, it boggles the mind," Camden County prosecutor Vincent
Sarubbi told a weekend news conference.
Parents Raymond Jackson, 50, and his wife Vanessa, 48, claimed the boys
suffered from eating disorders but a physician found no evidence of
inherited deficiencies, authorities said. The couple also had two adopted
girls, aged 5 and 12, and were in the process of adopting a 10-year-old
girl.
Authorities said the parents' two biological children, a boy and a girl both
over 18, lived in the same house and appeared healthy.
The three younger boys were removed from the Collingswood home and sent into
foster care, while the 19-year-old was hospitalised. The girls were also
taken from the home.
The state case worker who had been visiting the Jacksons resigned, and 10
managers and supervisors from the state Division of Youth and Family
Services were suspended with pay.
The division has been under fire over a series of child abuse cases,
including one that involved a 7-year-old Newark boy whose decomposing body
was discovered with his two starving brothers in January.
The Jacksons have been charged with four counts of aggravated assault and 14
counts of endangering the welfare of a minor. Both were being held in the
Camden County jail on $100,000 bail apiece.
neglected. It doesn't say if the children went to school or not but they
were visited reguarly by a social worker and still nowt was done....
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=39399
9§ion=news
U.S. couple charged with starving four boys
Sun 26 October, 2003 18:32 BST
PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A New Jersey couple face charges of starving their
four adopted sons, aged 9 to 19.
The boys, who suffered from stunted growth, rotten teeth and distended
bellies, were surviving by supplementing their meagre diet of uncooked
pancake batter and oatmeal with chips of paint and pieces of wall
insulation, authorities said on Sunday.
Meanwhile, a state case worker made regular visits to the home in the
Philadelphia suburb of Collingswood, New Jersey.
Their conditions came to light when neighbours phoned police after seeing
the 19-year-old rummaging through their trash can. Officers discovered that
the teen-ager weighed only 45 pounds (20 kg). His adoptive siblings -- aged
9, 10 and 14 -- weighed as little as 23 pounds (10 kg).
"It really strikes at the heart of anyone that has any sense of compassion.
And, quite frankly, it boggles the mind," Camden County prosecutor Vincent
Sarubbi told a weekend news conference.
Parents Raymond Jackson, 50, and his wife Vanessa, 48, claimed the boys
suffered from eating disorders but a physician found no evidence of
inherited deficiencies, authorities said. The couple also had two adopted
girls, aged 5 and 12, and were in the process of adopting a 10-year-old
girl.
Authorities said the parents' two biological children, a boy and a girl both
over 18, lived in the same house and appeared healthy.
The three younger boys were removed from the Collingswood home and sent into
foster care, while the 19-year-old was hospitalised. The girls were also
taken from the home.
The state case worker who had been visiting the Jacksons resigned, and 10
managers and supervisors from the state Division of Youth and Family
Services were suspended with pay.
The division has been under fire over a series of child abuse cases,
including one that involved a 7-year-old Newark boy whose decomposing body
was discovered with his two starving brothers in January.
The Jacksons have been charged with four counts of aggravated assault and 14
counts of endangering the welfare of a minor. Both were being held in the
Camden County jail on $100,000 bail apiece.
Lillian Haas
This lovely family lived about two miles from me, and now people in New
Jersey are worried that there will be calls for more state oversight. The
Philadelphia paper said they were "ostensibly" homeschooling, but I don't
know what they mean by that. The other local paper called them
homeschoolers, but CNN and the local TV news didn't mention it.
The Division of Family and Youth Services case worker who was in the house
every month for two years has "resigned."
Lillian
Jersey are worried that there will be calls for more state oversight. The
Philadelphia paper said they were "ostensibly" homeschooling, but I don't
know what they mean by that. The other local paper called them
homeschoolers, but CNN and the local TV news didn't mention it.
The Division of Family and Youth Services case worker who was in the house
every month for two years has "resigned."
Lillian
> U.S. couple charged with starving four boys
> Sun 26 October, 2003 18:32 BST
>
Shyrley
Lillian Haas wrote:
large number of cases like this are already having more oversight than
most people. The Victoria Climbie case in the Uk was the same. Multiple
social worker visits but still the little girl was beaten and straved
and tortured to death.
And she was attending school.
Sigh
Shyrley
>This lovely family lived about two miles from me, and now people in NewI never quite get why people call for *more* state oversight when a
>Jersey are worried that there will be calls for more state oversight. The
>Philadelphia paper said they were "ostensibly" homeschooling, but I don't
>know what they mean by that. The other local paper called them
>homeschoolers, but CNN and the local TV news didn't mention it.
>
>The Division of Family and Youth Services case worker who was in the house
>every month for two years has "resigned."
>
>Lillian
>
>
>
large number of cases like this are already having more oversight than
most people. The Victoria Climbie case in the Uk was the same. Multiple
social worker visits but still the little girl was beaten and straved
and tortured to death.
And she was attending school.
Sigh
Shyrley
>
>
>
coyote's corner
Hi,
Is there a place that has the real history of public education?
That, I think would be interesting.
janis
Is there a place that has the real history of public education?
That, I think would be interesting.
janis
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 2:38 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Homeschooling Article
-=-Sandra's objection to this particular article as propaganda that
shouldn't be posted here is not one I share. -=-
It wasn't an objection to it having been brought to the list in the first
place. It was after than, when someone said "Oooh, I want to post that on my
webpage" and someone else said "I want to print that out for my husband!" that it
seemed important to stress that it has more fallacy than objectivity.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
John Taylor Gatto Underground History of Education?
Mary Ellen
Mary Ellen
----- Original Message -----Is there a place that has the real history of public education?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
coyote's corner
Remember the NYC girl? Poor darling, I can't recall her name. Both adoptive parents were attornies, lived in a 'nice' building, attended school.
murdered.
Janis
murdered.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Shyrley
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Even state supervision doesn't help...
Lillian Haas wrote:
>This lovely family lived about two miles from me, and now people in New
>Jersey are worried that there will be calls for more state oversight. The
>Philadelphia paper said they were "ostensibly" homeschooling, but I don't
>know what they mean by that. The other local paper called them
>homeschoolers, but CNN and the local TV news didn't mention it.
>
>The Division of Family and Youth Services case worker who was in the house
>every month for two years has "resigned."
>
>Lillian
>
>
>
I never quite get why people call for *more* state oversight when a
large number of cases like this are already having more oversight than
most people. The Victoria Climbie case in the Uk was the same. Multiple
social worker visits but still the little girl was beaten and straved
and tortured to death.
And she was attending school.
Sigh
Shyrley
>
>
>
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn
Lisa Steinsomething.
I have a book on her.
She attended school every day. In retrospect, her teachers said they
knew something was wrong.
Joylyn
coyote's corner wrote:
I have a book on her.
She attended school every day. In retrospect, her teachers said they
knew something was wrong.
Joylyn
coyote's corner wrote:
> Remember the NYC girl? Poor darling, I can't recall her name. Both[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> adoptive parents were attornies, lived in a 'nice' building, attended
> school.
> murdered.
>
> Janis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Shyrley
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Even state supervision doesn't
> help...
>
>
>
>
> Lillian Haas wrote:
>
> >This lovely family lived about two miles from me, and now people in New
> >Jersey are worried that there will be calls for more state
> oversight. The
> >Philadelphia paper said they were "ostensibly" homeschooling, but I
> don't
> >know what they mean by that. The other local paper called them
> >homeschoolers, but CNN and the local TV news didn't mention it.
> >
> >The Division of Family and Youth Services case worker who was in
> the house
> >every month for two years has "resigned."
> >
> >Lillian
> >
> >
> >
> I never quite get why people call for *more* state oversight when a
> large number of cases like this are already having more oversight than
> most people. The Victoria Climbie case in the Uk was the same. Multiple
> social worker visits but still the little girl was beaten and straved
> and tortured to death.
> And she was attending school.
> Sigh
>
> Shyrley
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Dawn Bennink
Yup, Lisa Steinberg. Her adoptive father Joel & her father's girlfriend
Hedda Nussbaum. It will stick in my head for the rest of my life.
Dawn
joylyn wrote:
Hedda Nussbaum. It will stick in my head for the rest of my life.
Dawn
joylyn wrote:
> Lisa Steinsomething.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> I have a book on her.
>
> She attended school every day. In retrospect, her teachers said they
> knew something was wrong.
>
> Joylyn
>
> coyote's corner wrote:
>
> > Remember the NYC girl? Poor darling, I can't recall her name. Both
> > adoptive parents were attornies, lived in a 'nice' building, attended
> > school.
> > murdered.
> >
> > Janis
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Shyrley
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 6:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Even state supervision doesn't
> > help...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lillian Haas wrote:
> >
> > >This lovely family lived about two miles from me, and now people
> in New
> > >Jersey are worried that there will be calls for more state
> > oversight. The
> > >Philadelphia paper said they were "ostensibly" homeschooling, but I
> > don't
> > >know what they mean by that. The other local paper called them
> > >homeschoolers, but CNN and the local TV news didn't mention it.
> > >
> > >The Division of Family and Youth Services case worker who was in
> > the house
> > >every month for two years has "resigned."
> > >
> > >Lillian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > I never quite get why people call for *more* state oversight when a
> > large number of cases like this are already having more oversight than
> > most people. The Victoria Climbie case in the Uk was the same.
> Multiple
> > social worker visits but still the little girl was beaten and straved
> > and tortured to death.
> > And she was attending school.
> > Sigh
> >
> > Shyrley
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
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> >
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> > http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
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> >
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coyote's corner
Yes..I think it was Steinberg? that poor, poor baby. I can't imagine hitting Brianna...I think I hit my older kids twice. Once, I was going to strangle my son - he was 7 and he had given my 3 carat engagement ring to his teacher. I got it back the next day.
I slapped my daughter on the hand when she was younger for stealing my clothes and giving them to her friends. After a few times, I realized it wasn't working.
When I was real young - like 3 or 4 - Rosemary (next door kid) was a major biter. It never occurred to me to bite her back. It wasn't apart of my reality.
Her mom would BITE her everytime Rosemary bit someone. I never squealed - but then she bit me so hard she drew blood on my right arm and my mom saw it and told her mom - her mom drew blood from Rosemary. I thought that was so sick.
Tonight, Brianna & I will smudge and pray for all the kids that were taken from us and all the kids that are suffering.
Janis
I slapped my daughter on the hand when she was younger for stealing my clothes and giving them to her friends. After a few times, I realized it wasn't working.
When I was real young - like 3 or 4 - Rosemary (next door kid) was a major biter. It never occurred to me to bite her back. It wasn't apart of my reality.
Her mom would BITE her everytime Rosemary bit someone. I never squealed - but then she bit me so hard she drew blood on my right arm and my mom saw it and told her mom - her mom drew blood from Rosemary. I thought that was so sick.
Tonight, Brianna & I will smudge and pray for all the kids that were taken from us and all the kids that are suffering.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: joylyn
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Even state supervision doesn't help...
Lisa Steinsomething.
I have a book on her.
She attended school every day. In retrospect, her teachers said they
knew something was wrong.
Joylyn
coyote's corner wrote:
> Remember the NYC girl? Poor darling, I can't recall her name. Both
> adoptive parents were attornies, lived in a 'nice' building, attended
> school.
> murdered.
>
> Janis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Shyrley
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Even state supervision doesn't
> help...
>
>
>
>
> Lillian Haas wrote:
>
> >This lovely family lived about two miles from me, and now people in New
> >Jersey are worried that there will be calls for more state
> oversight. The
> >Philadelphia paper said they were "ostensibly" homeschooling, but I
> don't
> >know what they mean by that. The other local paper called them
> >homeschoolers, but CNN and the local TV news didn't mention it.
> >
> >The Division of Family and Youth Services case worker who was in
> the house
> >every month for two years has "resigned."
> >
> >Lillian
> >
> >
> >
> I never quite get why people call for *more* state oversight when a
> large number of cases like this are already having more oversight than
> most people. The Victoria Climbie case in the Uk was the same. Multiple
> social worker visits but still the little girl was beaten and straved
> and tortured to death.
> And she was attending school.
> Sigh
>
> Shyrley
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Sandra Dodd
I don't know of any one single place with "the real history" of
anything. Learning history involves all the observation and reading
and critical thinking that comes along. Ask older people about the
schools they went to when they were little. Read what you come
across about the formation of local schools in the 19th century. Be
aware of the regional history of different parts of the U.S. What's
true of Texas won't be true of Hawaii; Alaskan schools were different
in purpose and practice from schools in Boston. Knowing three
different lines will be enough to let you know that the history of
schools in New York City is not representative of all of the U.S.
Sandra
-----------------------------------
anything. Learning history involves all the observation and reading
and critical thinking that comes along. Ask older people about the
schools they went to when they were little. Read what you come
across about the formation of local schools in the 19th century. Be
aware of the regional history of different parts of the U.S. What's
true of Texas won't be true of Hawaii; Alaskan schools were different
in purpose and practice from schools in Boston. Knowing three
different lines will be enough to let you know that the history of
schools in New York City is not representative of all of the U.S.
Sandra
-----------------------------------