I'm on the verge!...
Heidi
well, folks, it's going to happen, and happen soon...unless there can
be compelling arguments here, about not doing the following:
putting a bedtime on the kids again, and possibly declaring "computer
and TV free month" and here's why.
Bedtimes, because when they stay up, they have demonstrated
(repeatedly) an inability to keep quiet. Last night, playing a
(quite) fun, interactive computer game, they got noisy enough to wake
me at 1:30 whereupon I said "Don't wake me up again, please" and
2:45...whereupon I said "Okay, time to wrap it up" and they turned
off the puter and hit the hay.
Also, when I got up this morning, I found ON the computer table:
sugar bowl with a ladle in it, a cup with three spoons, a kitchen
knife with banana slices and a half a banana. In the kitchen, the
banana bunch laid out on the counter top, two of them cut in half,
the halves lying there turning brown...
you get the general idea: pretty much a trashed kitchen and computer
area. The slivers of paper, the scissors, the crayons, the box/table
next to the couch where my youngest had crashed, the blankets,
stuffed toys, etc. did not bother me at all. But the food on the
computer table? The wasteful banana thing? Those I didn't like.
As for "computer and TV free November" (only, maybe it'll be the rest
of October, since we're having such tremendous weather which might
not be the case in Nov.)...well, it's all they do! literally. If I
don't have errands to run, they're in front of the computer or TV. I
keep myself moderately busy, and have gotten out of the habit of
demanding they help with things. I ask if they will; nearly 100% of
the time, they can't pry themselves away from the screen. Which I
don't fret about...trust me to have learned that much in the past
year!
Granted, out in the boonies, as we are, and trying to cut back on our
running (for economic reasons: we simply can't afford it)...there
isn't a lot of outside-the-home-and-family things to do. But: there's
a treehouse, there are bikes, there are pretty cool walks and rock
climbing, a creek; in the house, there are books, paints, glue,
crayons, a kitchen, a CD player, a piano, a guitar; outside there's a
wood shop, a wood pile, a black top driveway, scooters, balls,
various garden and shop tools, paint and brushes...in short, there's
quite a bit in their environment to choose from; I put in a fair
share of work and play IN that environment...and they continue with a
strong attraction to "screen time" to the exclusion of other things.
I'm much more inclined toward the bedtime, than the limited screen
time. We have had "screen-free week" many times in the past, and it
would be a temporary thing, for sure. But the bedtimes (lack thereof)
seems not to be working out, and I want to re-establish them...
tell me why not
;)
blessings, HeidiC
be compelling arguments here, about not doing the following:
putting a bedtime on the kids again, and possibly declaring "computer
and TV free month" and here's why.
Bedtimes, because when they stay up, they have demonstrated
(repeatedly) an inability to keep quiet. Last night, playing a
(quite) fun, interactive computer game, they got noisy enough to wake
me at 1:30 whereupon I said "Don't wake me up again, please" and
2:45...whereupon I said "Okay, time to wrap it up" and they turned
off the puter and hit the hay.
Also, when I got up this morning, I found ON the computer table:
sugar bowl with a ladle in it, a cup with three spoons, a kitchen
knife with banana slices and a half a banana. In the kitchen, the
banana bunch laid out on the counter top, two of them cut in half,
the halves lying there turning brown...
you get the general idea: pretty much a trashed kitchen and computer
area. The slivers of paper, the scissors, the crayons, the box/table
next to the couch where my youngest had crashed, the blankets,
stuffed toys, etc. did not bother me at all. But the food on the
computer table? The wasteful banana thing? Those I didn't like.
As for "computer and TV free November" (only, maybe it'll be the rest
of October, since we're having such tremendous weather which might
not be the case in Nov.)...well, it's all they do! literally. If I
don't have errands to run, they're in front of the computer or TV. I
keep myself moderately busy, and have gotten out of the habit of
demanding they help with things. I ask if they will; nearly 100% of
the time, they can't pry themselves away from the screen. Which I
don't fret about...trust me to have learned that much in the past
year!
Granted, out in the boonies, as we are, and trying to cut back on our
running (for economic reasons: we simply can't afford it)...there
isn't a lot of outside-the-home-and-family things to do. But: there's
a treehouse, there are bikes, there are pretty cool walks and rock
climbing, a creek; in the house, there are books, paints, glue,
crayons, a kitchen, a CD player, a piano, a guitar; outside there's a
wood shop, a wood pile, a black top driveway, scooters, balls,
various garden and shop tools, paint and brushes...in short, there's
quite a bit in their environment to choose from; I put in a fair
share of work and play IN that environment...and they continue with a
strong attraction to "screen time" to the exclusion of other things.
I'm much more inclined toward the bedtime, than the limited screen
time. We have had "screen-free week" many times in the past, and it
would be a temporary thing, for sure. But the bedtimes (lack thereof)
seems not to be working out, and I want to re-establish them...
tell me why not
;)
blessings, HeidiC
kayb85
Maybe you could offer them a "pajama party" in your bedroom? Let
them pick out a cool new dvd from the video store (or netflix, which
has become the favorite place to get dvds in our house!), get
everyone some cookies and warm milk and snuggle in bed to watch the
movie. If they're still awake when the movie is over, offer to give
them back rubs maybe? Have the lights real dim...maybe they'll fall
asleep?
Sheila
--- In [email protected], "Heidi"
<bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
them pick out a cool new dvd from the video store (or netflix, which
has become the favorite place to get dvds in our house!), get
everyone some cookies and warm milk and snuggle in bed to watch the
movie. If they're still awake when the movie is over, offer to give
them back rubs maybe? Have the lights real dim...maybe they'll fall
asleep?
Sheila
--- In [email protected], "Heidi"
<bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> well, folks, it's going to happen, and happen soon...unless therecan
> be compelling arguments here, about not doing the following:declaring "computer
>
> putting a bedtime on the kids again, and possibly
> and TV free month" and here's why.wake
>
> Bedtimes, because when they stay up, they have demonstrated
> (repeatedly) an inability to keep quiet. Last night, playing a
> (quite) fun, interactive computer game, they got noisy enough to
> me at 1:30 whereupon I said "Don't wake me up again, please" andcomputer
> 2:45...whereupon I said "Okay, time to wrap it up" and they turned
> off the puter and hit the hay.
>
> Also, when I got up this morning, I found ON the computer table:
> sugar bowl with a ladle in it, a cup with three spoons, a kitchen
> knife with banana slices and a half a banana. In the kitchen, the
> banana bunch laid out on the counter top, two of them cut in half,
> the halves lying there turning brown...
>
> you get the general idea: pretty much a trashed kitchen and
> area. The slivers of paper, the scissors, the crayons, thebox/table
> next to the couch where my youngest had crashed, the blankets,rest
> stuffed toys, etc. did not bother me at all. But the food on the
> computer table? The wasteful banana thing? Those I didn't like.
>
> As for "computer and TV free November" (only, maybe it'll be the
> of October, since we're having such tremendous weather which mightI
> not be the case in Nov.)...well, it's all they do! literally. If I
> don't have errands to run, they're in front of the computer or TV.
> keep myself moderately busy, and have gotten out of the habit ofour
> demanding they help with things. I ask if they will; nearly 100% of
> the time, they can't pry themselves away from the screen. Which I
> don't fret about...trust me to have learned that much in the past
> year!
>
> Granted, out in the boonies, as we are, and trying to cut back on
> running (for economic reasons: we simply can't afford it)...therethere's
> isn't a lot of outside-the-home-and-family things to do. But:
> a treehouse, there are bikes, there are pretty cool walks and rocka
> climbing, a creek; in the house, there are books, paints, glue,
> crayons, a kitchen, a CD player, a piano, a guitar; outside there's
> wood shop, a wood pile, a black top driveway, scooters, balls,there's
> various garden and shop tools, paint and brushes...in short,
> quite a bit in their environment to choose from; I put in a faira
> share of work and play IN that environment...and they continue with
> strong attraction to "screen time" to the exclusion of other things.thereof)
>
> I'm much more inclined toward the bedtime, than the limited screen
> time. We have had "screen-free week" many times in the past, and it
> would be a temporary thing, for sure. But the bedtimes (lack
> seems not to be working out, and I want to re-establish them...
>
> tell me why not
>
> ;)
>
> blessings, HeidiC
The Scanlons
Heidi,
I'm all for bedtimes. Our family lives in the "regular" world, where Daddy
has to be up rather early and sometimes he gets home on time, sometimes he's
pretty late. Individual bedtimes simply won't work. I don't know how old
your kids are, either. Mine are not old enough to be up unsupervised and I
can't possibly spread my waking hours to accomodate four different
children's body clocks.
With freedom comes responsibility. If your kids are not going to use their
freedom to choose their own bedtimes wisely, they really can't have that
freedom. If it isn't working for your family, it's not something you should
do. If you really want it to work, you can try tweaking things here and
there and ease on into it. But you might want to think about exactly why
you think/want your kids to be able to go to bed when they want. Do you
think it's good for them? Good for the family? Necessary? If you think
"yes" to these questions, then you'll work out an acceptable solution. If
you think "no", then why bother?
Sandy
:
I'm all for bedtimes. Our family lives in the "regular" world, where Daddy
has to be up rather early and sometimes he gets home on time, sometimes he's
pretty late. Individual bedtimes simply won't work. I don't know how old
your kids are, either. Mine are not old enough to be up unsupervised and I
can't possibly spread my waking hours to accomodate four different
children's body clocks.
With freedom comes responsibility. If your kids are not going to use their
freedom to choose their own bedtimes wisely, they really can't have that
freedom. If it isn't working for your family, it's not something you should
do. If you really want it to work, you can try tweaking things here and
there and ease on into it. But you might want to think about exactly why
you think/want your kids to be able to go to bed when they want. Do you
think it's good for them? Good for the family? Necessary? If you think
"yes" to these questions, then you'll work out an acceptable solution. If
you think "no", then why bother?
Sandy
:
>
> putting a bedtime on the kids again, and possibly declaring "computer
> and TV free month" and here's why.
Heidi
They do get drowsy when we lie down together and read, but at the
back of their minds is "gonna get to that computer" and they do, once
it gets time for me to turn in (being a morning person, I hit the hay
no later than about 10:30, sometimes earlier.)
I like the idea of a pajama party. YOu should have seen how silly we
got, the last time we all slept together! L Hubby was out of town, or
it prolly wouldn't have happened. My, we were goofy, until like 2:00
a.m. It was fun, and because it was novel, the excitement got the
kids going, and they were so funny I was laughing...IOW, when we all
had a bedtime party, we stayed up as late as their typical "self-
chosen" bedtime.
Maybe I'll start a routine of reading aloud, while they color or
snuggle under blankets (I'd lap sit them, but this is a nine and
almost 11 year old we're talking about)...just quiet everything down
as the evening progresses...
argh
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], "kayb85" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
back of their minds is "gonna get to that computer" and they do, once
it gets time for me to turn in (being a morning person, I hit the hay
no later than about 10:30, sometimes earlier.)
I like the idea of a pajama party. YOu should have seen how silly we
got, the last time we all slept together! L Hubby was out of town, or
it prolly wouldn't have happened. My, we were goofy, until like 2:00
a.m. It was fun, and because it was novel, the excitement got the
kids going, and they were so funny I was laughing...IOW, when we all
had a bedtime party, we stayed up as late as their typical "self-
chosen" bedtime.
Maybe I'll start a routine of reading aloud, while they color or
snuggle under blankets (I'd lap sit them, but this is a nine and
almost 11 year old we're talking about)...just quiet everything down
as the evening progresses...
argh
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], "kayb85" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
> Maybe you could offer them a "pajama party" in your bedroom? Letwhich
> them pick out a cool new dvd from the video store (or netflix,
> has become the favorite place to get dvds in our house!), getgive
> everyone some cookies and warm milk and snuggle in bed to watch the
> movie. If they're still awake when the movie is over, offer to
> them back rubs maybe? Have the lights real dim...maybe they'llfall
> asleep?
>
> Sheila
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Heidi"
> <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> > well, folks, it's going to happen, and happen soon...unless there
> can
> > be compelling arguments here, about not doing the following:
> >
> > putting a bedtime on the kids again, and possibly
> declaring "computer
> > and TV free month" and here's why.
Julie Solich
>>> Bedtimes, because when they stay up, they have demonstrated(repeatedly) an inability to keep quiet. Last night, playing a (quite) fun,
interactive computer game, they got noisy enough to wake me at 1:30
whereupon I said "Don't wake me up again, please" and
2:45...whereupon I said "Okay, time to wrap it up" and they turned off the
puter and hit the hay.>>>
Heidi,
Could you ask the kids to go to their rooms once you are ready for bed? Is
it possible for them to be quiet and read or something in their rooms once
it reaches a certain time? It seems unfair to you if they are going to be up
all night making noise. My boys sometimes take their lego to their room if
they are not ready to go to sleep when I would like them to. Or if I
suggest a milo and several chapters of whichever book we are reading they
are usually happy to settle in bed.
>>> As for "computer and TV free November" (only, maybe it'll be the restof October, since we're having such tremendous weather which might not be
the case in Nov.)...well, it's all they do! literally. If I don't have
errands to run, they're in front of the computer or TV. I
keep myself moderately busy, and have gotten out of the habit of demanding
they help with things. I ask if they will; nearly 100% of the time, they
can't pry themselves away from the screen. Which I don't fret about...trust
me to have learned that much in the past year! >>>
Remember it's seasonal. This won't last. Give it another couple of weeks and
they may surprise you by neglecting the TV for something else. Rent some
movies that YOU like and sit with them. I find when I start to get stressed
about the amount of time the kids are spending in front of the TV it means
I'm not hanging out with them enough. Are you spending more time cleaning
and cooking than you are just being with them? Also, what about asking them
to play a game with you. Or sit down in front of the TV with some craft or a
puzzle. Or put out some fun stuff on the table and play with it yourself,
maybe you'll attract some company.
HTH
Julie
>http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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>
>
Heidi
>bed? Is
> Could you ask the kids to go to their rooms once you are ready for
> it possible for them to be quiet and read or something in theirrooms once
> it reaches a certain time? It seems unfair to you if they are goingto be up
> all night making noise. My boys sometimes take their lego to theirroom if
> they are not ready to go to sleep when I would like them to.Thanks Julie! :)
That's what I told them for last night: stay up if you want, but in
your room and quiet (the littler kids each have their own room, but
prefer to crash on the floor together, of one or the other) And they
did fine. Katie has a little fort built out of a box, blankets, and
pillows. It even has a door! they thumped around a little bit with
that, but were quiet after just a little while.
Or if I
> suggest a miloWhat's a milo?
>I find when I start to get stressedit means
> about the amount of time the kids are spending in front of the TV
> I'm not hanging out with them enough.Ah! I think you may have hit the nail on the head. We're going
through a bit of economic crisis right now, so I've had my head
buried in books about frugal and simple living...maybe a rock-
climbing expedition w/picnic, this afternoon.
It is the computer, though, more than the TV. I'm a movie person,
very much so. Abbie and I have been watching one Shakespeare film
after another, and loving every minute of it. I don't mind them
watching TV...I "don't mind" the computer, except for the complete
hold it seems to have on them, even when we're doing something else.
we found a wild apple tree, bearing much fruit, on one of our hikes
recently. A few days later, we returned w/buckets and a step stool,
and harvested the apples. It was SUCH a cool outing, and we made
juice from some of them, and I put together an apple cake from some.
Jonathans! yummy. Well, we had this terrific time, walking in the
woods, shaking down the apples, romping all over the place, laughing
at the dogs, walked about two miles. It was GREAT!
When we got home ("No one leave the car empty handed!") I was the
last one through the door. Shoes, and whatever each kid carried in,
were sitting in the entryway, and they were IN the computer. The two
younger ones, anyway. It was like, at the back of their mind, even
through all the fun we were having, there was one thought "Gonna play
computer when we get home" I've seen the same with bike riding...the
very instant that fun activity is over...beeline to the computer.
And some days, even in this gorgeous fall we're having, with mom
outside, they're inside at the computer. "hey, I'm going out to
resnaffle the toobangle. You wanta come see how it's done?" (Not
demanding help, just asking if they want to come hang out while I do
something)... no takers.
It seems like computer IS their life, though I know if I sat down and
did a "day in the life" I'd see there is other stuff going on.
Computer just seems to be taking up more than its fair share...
Are you spending more time cleaning
> and cooking than you are just being with them? Also, what aboutasking them
> to play a game with you. Or sit down in front of the TV with somecraft or a
> puzzle.I like the idea of having something out on the floor while we watch
TV...might pull their eyeballs from the screen once in awhile. I
think today, Abbie and I are going to memorize Dogberry from Much Ado
About Nothing, the Kenneth Branagh/Emma Thompson version! :) Which
means, you see, playing his sections over and over LOL what's not to
love? Maybe Katie and Robby could be the guards hee hee
Or put out some fun stuff on the table and play with it yourself,
> maybe you'll attract some company.Thanks for the terrific suggestions, Julie.
>
> HTH
> Julie
blessings, HeidiC
Julie Solich
What's a milo?
Milo is the best, yummiest chocolate drink in the world. Well, I should say
Australia! It's an energy drink. You can drink it hot or cold or eat it
staright out of the tin although dentists would recommend against the
latter<g>. Mark likes it sprinkled/heaped on his cereal. Nestle make it.
Julie, going to make herself one now.
Milo is the best, yummiest chocolate drink in the world. Well, I should say
Australia! It's an energy drink. You can drink it hot or cold or eat it
staright out of the tin although dentists would recommend against the
latter<g>. Mark likes it sprinkled/heaped on his cereal. Nestle make it.
Julie, going to make herself one now.
>http://www.unschooling.com
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/23/03 6:52:20 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
<< It seems like computer IS their life, though I know if I sat down and
did a "day in the life" I'd see there is other stuff going on.
Computer just seems to be taking up more than its fair share... >>
You sound jealous.
The computer isn't doing anything. You spoke of it a though it were luring
and taking them in. It doesn't have a share of their lives.
You gave them choices and they are, for now, for some reason(s) choosing a
lot of computer. I would just look for the good in it and let it be.
Sandra
<< It seems like computer IS their life, though I know if I sat down and
did a "day in the life" I'd see there is other stuff going on.
Computer just seems to be taking up more than its fair share... >>
You sound jealous.
The computer isn't doing anything. You spoke of it a though it were luring
and taking them in. It doesn't have a share of their lives.
You gave them choices and they are, for now, for some reason(s) choosing a
lot of computer. I would just look for the good in it and let it be.
Sandra
Lee-Ann and Robert Storer
oh yum milo!!! The kids love it on cereal, I like to eat it out of the tin though. Milo and banana smoothie - delish!!
Lee-Ann in Australia
aka Dances With Goats
aka Stands With a Mop
What's a milo?
Milo is the best, yummiest chocolate drink in the world. Well, I should say
Australia! It's an energy drink. You can drink it hot or cold or eat it
staright out of the tin although dentists would recommend against the
latter<g>. Mark likes it sprinkled/heaped on his cereal. Nestle make it.
Julie, going to make herself one now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lee-Ann in Australia
aka Dances With Goats
aka Stands With a Mop
What's a milo?
Milo is the best, yummiest chocolate drink in the world. Well, I should say
Australia! It's an energy drink. You can drink it hot or cold or eat it
staright out of the tin although dentists would recommend against the
latter<g>. Mark likes it sprinkled/heaped on his cereal. Nestle make it.
Julie, going to make herself one now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lee-Ann and Robert Storer
The in-laws popped a surprise visit on the way through to visit some other rellies and my kids were all doing the 'screen thing'. MIL says "what are you doing playing computer games?? It's a school day!!" I said "we don't do school days here". And that was that. I've tried to explain our philosophy a gazillion times and have even put bookmarks to unschooling.com in her favourites list. Might be time to send some 'light' reading to her via email.
I didn't have the energy to go into 'play *is* work' and the critical, lateral and who knows what all else 'al' thinking is involved in computer games. The problem solving, the map reading, the FUN!!
The times that I've felt bad about the kids spending so much time at the computer or psone are the times when I wish that I was sitting there instead lol.
In fact as soon as I've finished up with my emails and had some breakfast I'm going in to play 'worms, with them.
Lee-Ann in Australia
aka Dances With Goats
aka Stands With a Mop
Heidi said:-
<< It seems like computer IS their life, though I know if I sat down and did a "day in the life" I'd see there is other stuff going on.
Computer just seems to be taking up more than its fair share... >>
Then Sandra said:-
You sound jealous.
The computer isn't doing anything. You spoke of it a though it were luring
and taking them in. It doesn't have a share of their lives.
You gave them choices and they are, for now, for some reason(s) choosing a
lot of computer. I would just look for the good in it and let it be.
snip.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I didn't have the energy to go into 'play *is* work' and the critical, lateral and who knows what all else 'al' thinking is involved in computer games. The problem solving, the map reading, the FUN!!
The times that I've felt bad about the kids spending so much time at the computer or psone are the times when I wish that I was sitting there instead lol.
In fact as soon as I've finished up with my emails and had some breakfast I'm going in to play 'worms, with them.
Lee-Ann in Australia
aka Dances With Goats
aka Stands With a Mop
Heidi said:-
<< It seems like computer IS their life, though I know if I sat down and did a "day in the life" I'd see there is other stuff going on.
Computer just seems to be taking up more than its fair share... >>
Then Sandra said:-
You sound jealous.
The computer isn't doing anything. You spoke of it a though it were luring
and taking them in. It doesn't have a share of their lives.
You gave them choices and they are, for now, for some reason(s) choosing a
lot of computer. I would just look for the good in it and let it be.
snip.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 10/23/03 9:36 AM, Julie Solich at mjsolich@... wrote:
but apparently not. Chili, Malaysia, Philipines, New Zealand, Australia.
There was this bit about the name:
> Milo is the best, yummiest chocolate drink in the world. Well, I should sayI checked Nestle to see if it was marketed in the US under a different name
> Australia!
but apparently not. Chili, Malaysia, Philipines, New Zealand, Australia.
There was this bit about the name:
> The name MILO comes from a Roman athlete in Greek mythology named Milon whoJoyce
> was famous for his feats of strength. Legend has it that he once carried a
> four-year-old bullock through the stadium in Olympia, Greece!
[email protected]
Bravo, Sandy! The same shoe doesn't fit all families. When I discovered
flylady.net, it finally hit me I didn't have to mold my familiy into what
everyone else thought was "right". You have to do what works for your family. If
you try something, it doesn't work-move on until you find what does work. And
you are so right-"with freedom comes responsibility". I was never taught that
as a child and grew up a rather reckless, irresponsible adult. Thank goodness
I met my husband who gave me a wake up call. With every action there is a
reaction. If you don't like the reaction you are getting, change the action.
Thanks for this early morning reminder for my day!
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
flylady.net, it finally hit me I didn't have to mold my familiy into what
everyone else thought was "right". You have to do what works for your family. If
you try something, it doesn't work-move on until you find what does work. And
you are so right-"with freedom comes responsibility". I was never taught that
as a child and grew up a rather reckless, irresponsible adult. Thank goodness
I met my husband who gave me a wake up call. With every action there is a
reaction. If you don't like the reaction you are getting, change the action.
Thanks for this early morning reminder for my day!
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 10/23/03 6:26 AM, The Scanlons at scanlon36@... wrote:
parenting practices will translate that idea into action very differently
than someone with more a peaceful parenting philosophy so it needs some
expansion if someone is trying to find peaceful ways of handling things.
If the need for Dad to have uninterrupted sleep is seen as a rule then the
best options are forceful and coercive. And that turns the issue into one of
power and who can claim the most rather than respect for Dad's need to
sleep.
If the need for Dad to have uninterrupted sleep is seen as an unquestioned
fact of life -- like something dropped will fall -- then the situation looks
and feels different. We can react differently to what our kids are asking
for.
It's the difference between telling someone who can fly that they aren't
allowed to and sympathizing with someone who wants to fly but can't.
Joyce
> But you might want to think about exactly whyBecause they're human? Don't *you* want to go to bed when you want? :-)
> you think/want your kids to be able to go to bed when they want.
> With freedom comes responsibility. If your kids are not going to use theirI agree with this. But a parent stuck with a head full of conventional
> freedom to choose their own bedtimes wisely, they really can't have that
> freedom.
parenting practices will translate that idea into action very differently
than someone with more a peaceful parenting philosophy so it needs some
expansion if someone is trying to find peaceful ways of handling things.
If the need for Dad to have uninterrupted sleep is seen as a rule then the
best options are forceful and coercive. And that turns the issue into one of
power and who can claim the most rather than respect for Dad's need to
sleep.
If the need for Dad to have uninterrupted sleep is seen as an unquestioned
fact of life -- like something dropped will fall -- then the situation looks
and feels different. We can react differently to what our kids are asking
for.
It's the difference between telling someone who can fly that they aren't
allowed to and sympathizing with someone who wants to fly but can't.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/24/2003 3:51:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
I checked Nestle to see if it was marketed in the US under a different name
but apparently not. Chili, Malaysia, Philipines, New Zealand, Australia.<<
******************************************************************************
************************
It sounds a little like Ovaltine. Always did love Ovaltine :o)
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
I checked Nestle to see if it was marketed in the US under a different name
but apparently not. Chili, Malaysia, Philipines, New Zealand, Australia.<<
******************************************************************************
************************
It sounds a little like Ovaltine. Always did love Ovaltine :o)
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/24/03 6:48:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
I'm having a little trouble figuring out what this distinction might look
like when put into practice. Can you help me out?
This whole thread is very helpful for me as I try to learn a different way of
doing things that respects my children but also sets the boundaries that I
need in order to be a happy, healthy, good-mommy kind of person.
Thanks,
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> If the need for Dad to have uninterrupted sleep is seen as a rule then theJoyce,
> best options are forceful and coercive. And that turns the issue into one of
> power and who can claim the most rather than respect for Dad's need to
> sleep.
>
> If the need for Dad to have uninterrupted sleep is seen as an unquestioned
> fact of life -- like something dropped will fall -- then the situation looks
> and feels different. We can react differently to what our kids are asking
> for.
>
> It's the difference between telling someone who can fly that they aren't
> allowed to and sympathizing with someone who wants to fly but can't.
>
I'm having a little trouble figuring out what this distinction might look
like when put into practice. Can you help me out?
This whole thread is very helpful for me as I try to learn a different way of
doing things that respects my children but also sets the boundaries that I
need in order to be a happy, healthy, good-mommy kind of person.
Thanks,
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Scanlons
>I *wish* I could go to bed when I want. As it is, I go to bed when I can
> Because they're human? Don't *you* want to go to bed when you want? :-)
and when I have to. Sometimes I get to go when I want to.
> I agree with this. But a parent stuck with a head full of conventionalI also agree. I do not get a vision of Heidi shouting, "That's it!!
> parenting practices will translate that idea into action very differently
> than someone with more a peaceful parenting philosophy so it needs some
> expansion if someone is trying to find peaceful ways of handling things.
Everyone in bed by 8pm from here on out!!!!" I didn't think she needed help
with what words to say. But a parent stuck with a head full of peaceful
parenting practices can have some troubles finding the balance and can
persist in behaviors/practices that simply don't fit their individual
families.
>of
> If the need for Dad to have uninterrupted sleep is seen as a rule then the
> best options are forceful and coercive. And that turns the issue into one
> power and who can claim the most rather than respect for Dad's need tolooks
> sleep.
>
> If the need for Dad to have uninterrupted sleep is seen as an unquestioned
> fact of life -- like something dropped will fall -- then the situation
> and feels different. We can react differently to what our kids are askingThe need is for my family to actually see each other and spend time with
> for.
each other. Some solid sleep so that the people whose lives depend on my
husband's mental acuity is pretty important, too (if he misses something,
someone is likely to get shot or blown up or knifed).
> It's the difference between telling someone who can fly that they aren'tIs this in reference to the kids and their not being allowed to stay up or
> allowed to and sympathizing with someone who wants to fly but can't.
to Heidi and her not being able to have no set bedtimes?
Sandy
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/24/03 3:38:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
scanlon36@... writes:
up late and get up late. My DH also has to be up very early and gets home
around 6:30-7:30 most nights. My boys are 6 and 9 but this is how we have
handled the differing body clocks here.
My DH is responsible for himself. He goes to bed when he wants just like the
rest of us. He likes to stay up late, and play with the boys. When I get
tired I go to bed as well. My boys are a bit older now so safety isn't as much
of a concern. Some days they will stay up a while and play on the computer or
finish watching a movie. Then they come in the bedroom with us and play
quietly in there until they are tired. They love to draw or read books or even
play army men which is OK as long as they are pretty quiet. If they get a bit
noisy I ask them to take it into the hallway outside the door so as not to
bother us. (They don't like being in their room at night without someone else in
there.)
When they were younger they would do the same thing. If they were watching a
movie I would put it on int he bedroom for them to watch. I never had a
"bedtime" but when they were younger they couldn't be roaming the house alone and
they never wanted to either. They have never wanted to be up in the house
alone at night so they have always done quiet things int eh bedroom with us and
when they got tired would climb up in bed.
I guess we have tried our best to create win/win situations. We have
compromised so that everyone's individual needs are respected.
Anyway just what happens here.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
scanlon36@... writes:
> I'm all for bedtimes. Our family lives in the "regular" world, where DaddyHere I recognize and respect that my boys are night owls. They prefer to stay
> has to be up rather early and sometimes he gets home on time, sometimes he's
> pretty late. Individual bedtimes simply won't work. I don't know how old
> your kids are, either. Mine are not old enough to be up unsupervised and I
> can't possibly spread my waking hours to accomodate four different
> children's body clocks.
>
>
up late and get up late. My DH also has to be up very early and gets home
around 6:30-7:30 most nights. My boys are 6 and 9 but this is how we have
handled the differing body clocks here.
My DH is responsible for himself. He goes to bed when he wants just like the
rest of us. He likes to stay up late, and play with the boys. When I get
tired I go to bed as well. My boys are a bit older now so safety isn't as much
of a concern. Some days they will stay up a while and play on the computer or
finish watching a movie. Then they come in the bedroom with us and play
quietly in there until they are tired. They love to draw or read books or even
play army men which is OK as long as they are pretty quiet. If they get a bit
noisy I ask them to take it into the hallway outside the door so as not to
bother us. (They don't like being in their room at night without someone else in
there.)
When they were younger they would do the same thing. If they were watching a
movie I would put it on int he bedroom for them to watch. I never had a
"bedtime" but when they were younger they couldn't be roaming the house alone and
they never wanted to either. They have never wanted to be up in the house
alone at night so they have always done quiet things int eh bedroom with us and
when they got tired would climb up in bed.
I guess we have tried our best to create win/win situations. We have
compromised so that everyone's individual needs are respected.
Anyway just what happens here.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi
Hi Lee-Ann
LOL I enjoy computer games, too. In fact, two games that Robby has
brought into the house, I have beat him. Play them more than he does
(he plays others)...and I've read and find myself agreeing with the
articles touting computer games as learning tools (BeetleJunior,
Chips Challenge, Dynomite: Puzzle games, with mazes, problem solving,
quick thinking, perfect timing, etc...um, sorta like the kinds of
things found on standardized tests, eh?...) So I don't have a problem
with my kids "doing nothing" while playing. I know they ARE doing
things, yea verily, amazing things, when they are playing.
Which, thinking about it, if it is the case that they're doing
amazing things while computerizing, I shouldn't be fretting about it.
Let's see here. Maybe telling on a guy I dated will clarify me a bit.
Don was a nice fellow: decent, calm, kind. A dry, kind of bizaare
sense of humor. VERY attached to his possessions, and owned two of
nearly everything (two guitars; two cars; two identical pancake
turners...) anyway. Nice guy. We went out for about half a year, and
one date was a picnic. We hit the grocery store first, to pick up
things for the picnic. As we walked in the door, there was a TV
playing...and Don stopped there for a full five minutes, to watch!
Since I was living at home at the time, he met my folks. Invariably,
when we were in the front room, if the TV was on, (as it usually was)
Don dropped out of the conversation and got completely absorbed in
whatever was on. You couldn't even interrupt his gaze for a
commercial. This, in a grown man.
You'll say "he didn't get enough time to watch as a kid" NO,
according to his mom, he was glued to the TV for his spare time
through pretty much his whole childhood. (Okay, okay, "spare time"
sheesh) It just seemed to me that this guy COULDN'T get enough time
before the screen, and!!! that he was pulled into it entirely: his
whole psyche involved and nothing could pull him away.
This, I do not want for my kids. But to be completely objective (as I
always am LOL)...my kids already aren't as exaggeratedly into it as
Don was. Thus, my worries that they will be "Don's" is baseless, and
I should quit fretting. LOL
Here's what's happening since I initially posted: 10:30 or so
is "bedtime". The computer gets turned off ("as soon as this level is
over, mom!") and the kids go downstairs, where they visit or read or
work on their current fort or listen to music, quietly. I and hubby
go to bed.
It seems to be a good solution.
I will work on calming myself about the "screen time." It hasn't even
been a year since we started this unschooling experiment.
blessings, HeidiC
involved in computer games. The problem solving, the map reading,
the FUN!!
there instead lol.
LOL I enjoy computer games, too. In fact, two games that Robby has
brought into the house, I have beat him. Play them more than he does
(he plays others)...and I've read and find myself agreeing with the
articles touting computer games as learning tools (BeetleJunior,
Chips Challenge, Dynomite: Puzzle games, with mazes, problem solving,
quick thinking, perfect timing, etc...um, sorta like the kinds of
things found on standardized tests, eh?...) So I don't have a problem
with my kids "doing nothing" while playing. I know they ARE doing
things, yea verily, amazing things, when they are playing.
Which, thinking about it, if it is the case that they're doing
amazing things while computerizing, I shouldn't be fretting about it.
Let's see here. Maybe telling on a guy I dated will clarify me a bit.
Don was a nice fellow: decent, calm, kind. A dry, kind of bizaare
sense of humor. VERY attached to his possessions, and owned two of
nearly everything (two guitars; two cars; two identical pancake
turners...) anyway. Nice guy. We went out for about half a year, and
one date was a picnic. We hit the grocery store first, to pick up
things for the picnic. As we walked in the door, there was a TV
playing...and Don stopped there for a full five minutes, to watch!
Since I was living at home at the time, he met my folks. Invariably,
when we were in the front room, if the TV was on, (as it usually was)
Don dropped out of the conversation and got completely absorbed in
whatever was on. You couldn't even interrupt his gaze for a
commercial. This, in a grown man.
You'll say "he didn't get enough time to watch as a kid" NO,
according to his mom, he was glued to the TV for his spare time
through pretty much his whole childhood. (Okay, okay, "spare time"
sheesh) It just seemed to me that this guy COULDN'T get enough time
before the screen, and!!! that he was pulled into it entirely: his
whole psyche involved and nothing could pull him away.
This, I do not want for my kids. But to be completely objective (as I
always am LOL)...my kids already aren't as exaggeratedly into it as
Don was. Thus, my worries that they will be "Don's" is baseless, and
I should quit fretting. LOL
Here's what's happening since I initially posted: 10:30 or so
is "bedtime". The computer gets turned off ("as soon as this level is
over, mom!") and the kids go downstairs, where they visit or read or
work on their current fort or listen to music, quietly. I and hubby
go to bed.
It seems to be a good solution.
I will work on calming myself about the "screen time." It hasn't even
been a year since we started this unschooling experiment.
blessings, HeidiC
> I didn't have the energy to go into 'play *is* work' and thecritical, lateral and who knows what all else 'al' thinking is
involved in computer games. The problem solving, the map reading,
the FUN!!
>at the computer or psone are the times when I wish that I was sitting
> The times that I've felt bad about the kids spending so much time
there instead lol.
>
Tia Leschke
>I wish my head had started out filled with peaceful parenting practices.
>
>I also agree. I do not get a vision of Heidi shouting, "That's it!!
>Everyone in bed by 8pm from here on out!!!!" I didn't think she needed help
>with what words to say. But a parent stuck with a head full of peaceful
>parenting practices can have some troubles finding the balance and can
>persist in behaviors/practices that simply don't fit their individual
>families.
(and it *did* have a lot) It's one of the reasons I stay on this list.
Tia
[email protected]
<< If your kids are not going to use their
would choose."
"Wisely" means "matches my preconceived notions" too often.
There are people who claim to have tried unschooling and then they claim it
failed. When they report what they did, they left their kids alone and later
got angry because their children hadn't somehow spontaneously burst into
schoolwork. They thought unschooling would eventually look like studying history
from a history book, reading classic novels and writing reports on them, and
studying geometry with a lined notebook full of diagrams and formulae.
Decisions about bedtimes and "enough sleep" when made by parents often look
like "go to bed at 9:00 and wake up at 7:00." If that's the only wise
decision a child can make, their freedom was not real.
Sandra
> freedom to choose their own bedtimes wisely, they really can't have thatI think when people say "wisely" they mean sometimes "choose what I wish they
> freedom.
>>
would choose."
"Wisely" means "matches my preconceived notions" too often.
There are people who claim to have tried unschooling and then they claim it
failed. When they report what they did, they left their kids alone and later
got angry because their children hadn't somehow spontaneously burst into
schoolwork. They thought unschooling would eventually look like studying history
from a history book, reading classic novels and writing reports on them, and
studying geometry with a lined notebook full of diagrams and formulae.
Decisions about bedtimes and "enough sleep" when made by parents often look
like "go to bed at 9:00 and wake up at 7:00." If that's the only wise
decision a child can make, their freedom was not real.
Sandra
[email protected]
FWIW, our children were never nappers and because we're "older"
parents -- who get tired! -- we worried about their safety after we were asleep,
from the time they first could walk and climb.
For peace of mind, then, we never did "bedtime" but instead invented
what we called "Light Time." It meant time to "retire" to the delights of one's
own room, where as long as things were reasonably quiet and relaxed (reading
in bed mostly but also coloring and jigsaw puzzles, imaginary play with
stuffed animals et cetera) then the lights would stay on as late as desired by the
child, even all night.
This seemed great to them because the stories and tv shows they
watched included bedtimes with lights out, and it always came at some pre-set
artificial time. Light time was whenever the day seemed basically over for the
family. Because we treated Light Time like a special family deal, just because we
were "us" and could do what we wanted without following the rules other people
did, the children always seemed to feel it was a privilege rather than
something to undermine or resist.
We now have one teen and one eight-year-old. They still really like
their "light time" and cheerfully retire to their own quiet dominions whenever
dad and I put the house to bed and toddle off ourselves. In our house the
electronics are all central (no phones, tvs or computers in bedrooms) but we've
always had a tape/CD player by each bed with an assortment of books on tape (the
Harry Potter ones by Jim Dale are award-winning and truly wonderful - we
listen to them in the car on trips and all enjoy them) The teen has several
journals going and is writing plays and stories, and also is experimenting with art,
knitting and crafts, mostly because she's discovered these as things she can
enjoy during the hours after she officially retires to her room. I have no
idea what time she usually gets to sleep now, but judging from the hours at which
she rises, I would say there have been some pretty wee hours of light time on
a regular basis! :)
Anyway, didn't mean to go on about it -- I just wanted to say that the
concept of "light time" rather than "bedtime" worked well for us. JJ
parents -- who get tired! -- we worried about their safety after we were asleep,
from the time they first could walk and climb.
For peace of mind, then, we never did "bedtime" but instead invented
what we called "Light Time." It meant time to "retire" to the delights of one's
own room, where as long as things were reasonably quiet and relaxed (reading
in bed mostly but also coloring and jigsaw puzzles, imaginary play with
stuffed animals et cetera) then the lights would stay on as late as desired by the
child, even all night.
This seemed great to them because the stories and tv shows they
watched included bedtimes with lights out, and it always came at some pre-set
artificial time. Light time was whenever the day seemed basically over for the
family. Because we treated Light Time like a special family deal, just because we
were "us" and could do what we wanted without following the rules other people
did, the children always seemed to feel it was a privilege rather than
something to undermine or resist.
We now have one teen and one eight-year-old. They still really like
their "light time" and cheerfully retire to their own quiet dominions whenever
dad and I put the house to bed and toddle off ourselves. In our house the
electronics are all central (no phones, tvs or computers in bedrooms) but we've
always had a tape/CD player by each bed with an assortment of books on tape (the
Harry Potter ones by Jim Dale are award-winning and truly wonderful - we
listen to them in the car on trips and all enjoy them) The teen has several
journals going and is writing plays and stories, and also is experimenting with art,
knitting and crafts, mostly because she's discovered these as things she can
enjoy during the hours after she officially retires to her room. I have no
idea what time she usually gets to sleep now, but judging from the hours at which
she rises, I would say there have been some pretty wee hours of light time on
a regular basis! :)
Anyway, didn't mean to go on about it -- I just wanted to say that the
concept of "light time" rather than "bedtime" worked well for us. JJ
> Here's what's happening since I initially posted: 10:30 or so[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> is "bedtime". The computer gets turned off ("as soon as this level is
> over, mom!") and the kids go downstairs, where they visit or read or
> work on their current fort or listen to music, quietly. I and hubby
> go to bed.
>
Robyn Coburn
Milo when stirred into milk leaves slightly crunchy bits floating in the
center of the whirlpool that are really scrumptious. Ovaltine requires a
splash of boiling water to be dissolved first, and is a different flavor
- I promise.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
center of the whirlpool that are really scrumptious. Ovaltine requires a
splash of boiling water to be dissolved first, and is a different flavor
- I promise.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
coyote's corner
and
"you don't understand" very often means "you don't agree with me"
"you don't understand" very often means "you don't agree with me"
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] I'm on the verge!...
<< If your kids are not going to use their
> freedom to choose their own bedtimes wisely, they really can't have that
> freedom.
>>
I think when people say "wisely" they mean sometimes "choose what I wish they
would choose."
"Wisely" means "matches my preconceived notions" too often.
There are people who claim to have tried unschooling and then they claim it
failed. When they report what they did, they left their kids alone and later
got angry because their children hadn't somehow spontaneously burst into
schoolwork. They thought unschooling would eventually look like studying history
from a history book, reading classic novels and writing reports on them, and
studying geometry with a lined notebook full of diagrams and formulae.
Decisions about bedtimes and "enough sleep" when made by parents often look
like "go to bed at 9:00 and wake up at 7:00." If that's the only wise
decision a child can make, their freedom was not real.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
[email protected]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lee-Ann and Robert Storer
This is true Robyn.
Milo is superior I feel <g>
I used to call the dregs from Ovaltine 'grouchies' when I was little (we didn't do the hot water thing to dissolve it first). Haven't had ovaltine for years but remember it being slightly bitter compared to the taste of milo (both dry, no sugar).
We used to put the milk in first then a big heap of milo on top then add sugar to the top of the milo heap and wait for the sugar to tip the milo over as it absorbed moisture. Too cool.
Lee-Ann in Australia
singing "memories, light the corners of my mind....."
Robyn said:-
Milo when stirred into milk leaves slightly crunchy bits floating in the
center of the whirlpool that are really scrumptious. Ovaltine requires a
splash of boiling water to be dissolved first, and is a different flavor
- I promise.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Milo is superior I feel <g>
I used to call the dregs from Ovaltine 'grouchies' when I was little (we didn't do the hot water thing to dissolve it first). Haven't had ovaltine for years but remember it being slightly bitter compared to the taste of milo (both dry, no sugar).
We used to put the milk in first then a big heap of milo on top then add sugar to the top of the milo heap and wait for the sugar to tip the milo over as it absorbed moisture. Too cool.
Lee-Ann in Australia
singing "memories, light the corners of my mind....."
Robyn said:-
Milo when stirred into milk leaves slightly crunchy bits floating in the
center of the whirlpool that are really scrumptious. Ovaltine requires a
splash of boiling water to be dissolved first, and is a different flavor
- I promise.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Solich
The name MILO comes from a Roman athlete in Greek mythology named Milon who
was famous for his feats of strength. Legend has it that he once carried a
four-year-old bullock through the stadium in Olympia, Greece!
Joyce
That's cool! The ads always boast it's an energy drink and show scenes of
people skateboarding or surfing....."You gotta be made of milo!"
I prefer to drink it sitting on the couch in front of the TV. <g>
Julie
was famous for his feats of strength. Legend has it that he once carried a
four-year-old bullock through the stadium in Olympia, Greece!
Joyce
That's cool! The ads always boast it's an energy drink and show scenes of
people skateboarding or surfing....."You gotta be made of milo!"
I prefer to drink it sitting on the couch in front of the TV. <g>
Julie
>http://www.unschooling.com
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Mary
From: <jrossedd@...>
<<Anyway, didn't mean to go on about it -- I just wanted to say that the
concept of "light time" rather than "bedtime" worked well for us. JJ>>
I hope this helps some people who are struggling with "bed times." Thanks
for sharing. It was a nice story.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<Anyway, didn't mean to go on about it -- I just wanted to say that the
concept of "light time" rather than "bedtime" worked well for us. JJ>>
I hope this helps some people who are struggling with "bed times." Thanks
for sharing. It was a nice story.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
The Scanlons
>they
> I think when people say "wisely" they mean sometimes "choose what I wish
> would choose."But sometimes they really do mean "wisely".
> Decisions about bedtimes and "enough sleep" when made by parents oftenlook
> like "go to bed at 9:00 and wake up at 7:00." If that's the only wiseIf that is the issue, you are spot on. However, Heidi's kids were being
> decision a child can make, their freedom was not real.
loud and rude and leaving messes. None of this is treating other family
members with respect. They had complete freedom to act this way. They also
had complete freedom to play quietly and either clean up after themselves or
not make such a mess in the first place. They used their freedom and
chose the activities that led Mom to believe that her children were not
ready for the freedom she allowed.
Real freedom has real responsibility attached to it.
Sandy
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/24/03 3:50:28 PM, jana@... writes:
<< and
"you don't understand" very often means "you don't agree with me" >>
If they say things that indicate they haven't ever really considered both
sides, or are refusing to considered both sides, that's probably really "you
don't understand."
And so in the case of "wise decisions" when the phrase is used by someone who
has not experienced more than one model, it can also be a "you don't
understand."
There are cultural "wisdoms" (early to bed, early to rise...) which aren't
objective "wisdom," just the mold "good people" should try to fit themselves
into. The arguments against those are sometimes also traditional. (They won't
get enough sleep if I don't force them, they won't be able to hold a job when
they're grown...)
Kirby was up before 9:00 this morning. He doesn't need to be at work until
5:00. He decided last night to join a Magic tournament today, got himself up,
wrote me a note, and went. I didn't make him go to bed, I didn't make him get
up, I would have let him sleep til noon. People who fear to risk that will
probably add to their fears that a kid could never manage his schedule unless
he HAD a schedule. That's their fear, based on their fears.
I have knowledge based on experience, and it seems to be it's worth sharing.
Sandra
<< and
"you don't understand" very often means "you don't agree with me" >>
If they say things that indicate they haven't ever really considered both
sides, or are refusing to considered both sides, that's probably really "you
don't understand."
And so in the case of "wise decisions" when the phrase is used by someone who
has not experienced more than one model, it can also be a "you don't
understand."
There are cultural "wisdoms" (early to bed, early to rise...) which aren't
objective "wisdom," just the mold "good people" should try to fit themselves
into. The arguments against those are sometimes also traditional. (They won't
get enough sleep if I don't force them, they won't be able to hold a job when
they're grown...)
Kirby was up before 9:00 this morning. He doesn't need to be at work until
5:00. He decided last night to join a Magic tournament today, got himself up,
wrote me a note, and went. I didn't make him go to bed, I didn't make him get
up, I would have let him sleep til noon. People who fear to risk that will
probably add to their fears that a kid could never manage his schedule unless
he HAD a schedule. That's their fear, based on their fears.
I have knowledge based on experience, and it seems to be it's worth sharing.
Sandra
Sharon Caldwell
I reset my message rules to not get mail a while ago because I was
not coping with all my work plus all my group mail and have just come
into the group site to see what has been happening. I can't resist
chirping in on this one. Bedtimes were always a hassle in our home,
with endless fights and frazzled parents and kids. The one day we
decided to stop doing bedtimes. Everyone goes to sleep when they
want to. IT CHANGED OUR FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS!!! I just don't know
why we ever made an issue of it.
SHARON
not coping with all my work plus all my group mail and have just come
into the group site to see what has been happening. I can't resist
chirping in on this one. Bedtimes were always a hassle in our home,
with endless fights and frazzled parents and kids. The one day we
decided to stop doing bedtimes. Everyone goes to sleep when they
want to. IT CHANGED OUR FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS!!! I just don't know
why we ever made an issue of it.
SHARON
> Decisions about bedtimes and "enough sleep" when made by parentsoften look
> like "go to bed at 9:00 and wake up at 7:00." If that's the onlywise
> decision a child can make, their freedom was not real.
>
> Sandra
24hrmom
<<However, Heidi's kids were being loud and rude and leaving messes. None of this is treating other family members with respect. They had complete freedom to act this way. They also had complete freedom to play quietly and either clean up after themselves or not make such a mess in the first place. They used their freedom and chose the activities that led Mom to believe that her children were not ready for the freedom she allowed.>>
But giving the kids freedom (e.g. when to go to bed), leaving them alone in their choices to do whatever, and then being upset about the choices they made and revoking that freedom, is not unschooling. I'm not saying this is what Heidi did, it's just the direction the discussion has gone.
There is more than one path from point A (kids being loud & messy) to point B (parents sleeping peacefully without waking to a large mess). Enforcing bedtimes is just one possible path to point B. But it's an authoritarian path that gives the kids the impression that they only have these freedoms if their choices match mine (my preconceived notions about which path they should choose). And this attitude is not very conducive to unschooling, as the kids may conclude that the parent may take away other freedoms, such as not doing "schoolwork" etc, at any arbitrary time that the parent decides they are not making the "right choices".
Instead, the parent could discuss the issue with the kids. The kids need to know how their choices are affecting others; they may not realize it on their own. For example explaining "the noise you make after I go to bed is waking me up during the night. I'm not getting a good night's sleep so I feel tired and cranky in the morning." And then brainstorming some solutions on how they can keep the noise level down. Or get some food without making a huge mess. You get the idea.
And the discussions are definitely geared to the child's age. With younger kids, maybe you can offer up more interesting choices, like lets go up to your room and read a favourite story, watch a favourite movie etc. And as they get older, maybe "light time" as someone suggested, time in their room to pursue quiet activities of their choice is an acceptable solution to get to point B for everyone involved. And as they get older still, maybe just friendly reminders to keep it down, turn off the lights etc. before you go up to bed. This are just other paths that can get you to point B, not guaranteed solutions for everyone. The point is that the parents need to talk with their kids to work out solutions that are amenable to everyone involved. This way the kids learn how to make good decisions and choices - choosing the best path for them from point A to B while considering how their choices affect others involved.
As an aside, for example, when I realized my son wanted tea in the evenings after I went to bed, I first put out on the counter all the stuff he'd need, filled the kettle, and wrote basic instructions (including toss the tea bag in the sink). I did that for a few nights, then the instructions fell by the wayside and I just left the stuff out. After a couple weeks, he can take care of it all himself. And though I mention any larger mess I find in the morning (like "when you make such and such, can you please put this and that in the garbage" etc.), give reminders to "please turn out all the lights before you go to bed", and occasionally get up to ask them to "please turn/keep it down, it's too loud for me to sleep", I do enjoy coming down in the morning and figuring out what they've done and eaten ... it keeps me in touch!
Pam L.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But giving the kids freedom (e.g. when to go to bed), leaving them alone in their choices to do whatever, and then being upset about the choices they made and revoking that freedom, is not unschooling. I'm not saying this is what Heidi did, it's just the direction the discussion has gone.
There is more than one path from point A (kids being loud & messy) to point B (parents sleeping peacefully without waking to a large mess). Enforcing bedtimes is just one possible path to point B. But it's an authoritarian path that gives the kids the impression that they only have these freedoms if their choices match mine (my preconceived notions about which path they should choose). And this attitude is not very conducive to unschooling, as the kids may conclude that the parent may take away other freedoms, such as not doing "schoolwork" etc, at any arbitrary time that the parent decides they are not making the "right choices".
Instead, the parent could discuss the issue with the kids. The kids need to know how their choices are affecting others; they may not realize it on their own. For example explaining "the noise you make after I go to bed is waking me up during the night. I'm not getting a good night's sleep so I feel tired and cranky in the morning." And then brainstorming some solutions on how they can keep the noise level down. Or get some food without making a huge mess. You get the idea.
And the discussions are definitely geared to the child's age. With younger kids, maybe you can offer up more interesting choices, like lets go up to your room and read a favourite story, watch a favourite movie etc. And as they get older, maybe "light time" as someone suggested, time in their room to pursue quiet activities of their choice is an acceptable solution to get to point B for everyone involved. And as they get older still, maybe just friendly reminders to keep it down, turn off the lights etc. before you go up to bed. This are just other paths that can get you to point B, not guaranteed solutions for everyone. The point is that the parents need to talk with their kids to work out solutions that are amenable to everyone involved. This way the kids learn how to make good decisions and choices - choosing the best path for them from point A to B while considering how their choices affect others involved.
As an aside, for example, when I realized my son wanted tea in the evenings after I went to bed, I first put out on the counter all the stuff he'd need, filled the kettle, and wrote basic instructions (including toss the tea bag in the sink). I did that for a few nights, then the instructions fell by the wayside and I just left the stuff out. After a couple weeks, he can take care of it all himself. And though I mention any larger mess I find in the morning (like "when you make such and such, can you please put this and that in the garbage" etc.), give reminders to "please turn out all the lights before you go to bed", and occasionally get up to ask them to "please turn/keep it down, it's too loud for me to sleep", I do enjoy coming down in the morning and figuring out what they've done and eaten ... it keeps me in touch!
Pam L.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]