susan

betsy you're right that's her. i just thought she was a great example of
fallacies regarding unschoolers. i see her as the 'rush limbaugh' of hsers -
she's a verbal bully. there's no point of discussing it with her because
it's her way or forget it. she blinded by her own opinion and regards it as
truth. i've not met her just had a brief conversation w her online in our
local group.

-susan
austin,tx


ecsamhill@... wrote:

>
> These sound a lot like the ideas Gail Withrow publishes on her website. Is
> she the person you were debating with, or was someone else just echoing her
> opinions?
>
> I really don't like the way Withrow bashes unschoolers. Her arguments just
> don't represent the beliefs of most unschoolers that I have talked with.
>
> Betsy
>

Debra Bures

re:common misconceptions about hs'ers:
I had a friend tell me that she thought homeschoolers were a bunch of
religious fanatics or hippies living in busses at the side of the road!
Debra
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 5:40 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 517


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There are 19 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: unschooling fallicies?
From: "A. Yates" <hooperck@...>
2. unschool grad
From: "Annette Naake" <naake1999@...>
3. Re: unschooling fallicies?
From: Tddy_Br@...
4. Re: intro and comment
From: metta <metta@...>
5. Re: David Albert
From: David Albert <shantinik@...>
6. Re: unschooling fallicies?
From: "K WORTHEN" <kworthen@...>
7. Re: David Albert
From: susan <fxfireob@...>
8. Need Help: Diversity in Homeschooling?
From: Helen Hegener <HEM-Editor@...>
9. lazy was unschool grad
From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
10. Re: unschooling fallicies?
From: "A. Yates" <hooperck@...>
11. Re: BABIES!!!
From: "Tracy Oldfield" <Tracy@...-online.co.uk>
12. Re: unschooling fallicies?
From: "Tracy Oldfield" <Tracy@...-online.co.uk>
13. Re: BABIES!!!
From: Sonia Ulan <sulan@...>
14. Re: 'shyness'
From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
15. Re: unschooling fallicies?
From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
16. Re: 'shyness'
From: susan <fxfireob@...>
17. Re: BABIES!!!
From: "K WORTHEN" <kworthen@...>
18. Re: from unschool grad -shyness
From: Anita Bower <homequaker@...>
19. diploma for Army enlistment
From: hjshaltz@...


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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:00:18 -0400
From: "A. Yates" <hooperck@...>
Subject: Re: unschooling fallicies?

That all homeschoolers wear sandals, are vegetarians, and hippies.
A

BandLHaney@... wrote:

>
>
> > >From: unschoolr2@...
> > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >To: [email protected]
> > >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling fallicies?
> > >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:47:12 EDT
> > >
> > >Hi all, I am working on an article on the common myths or
> misconceptions
> > >about unschooling and unschooling families. We have all heard the
> very
> > >sad.... If left to there own devices kids would just sit and watch
> TV or
> > >play
> > >video games all day. What are some others that you have heard?
> > >Thanks
> > >Teri
>
> Teri,
> How about, they can never learn beyond what I can "teach" them or they
> have
> to have textbooks to learn from.
> Lisa
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>


[This message contained attachments]



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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:57:26 CDT
From: "Annette Naake" <naake1999@...>
Subject: unschool grad

Hi all,

I'm probably late on this thread but I'm enjoying it!

Hafidha wrote (very patiently I thought): "By lazy I mean the inclination to
be inert."

If one needs a definition of lazy, I have never seen a better one! This made
me laugh out loud!

Carry on...

Annette
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:57:01 -0500
From: Tddy_Br@...
Subject: Re: unschooling fallicies?

You mean I didn't have to get rid of all my shoes and invest in soybeans
when I started this??????
(ROFL) (new to homeschooling and enjoying these myths immensely!!)

GB,
Sandi

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:00:18 -0400 "A. Yates" <hooperck@...>
writes:
> That all homeschoolers wear sandals, are vegetarians, and hippies.
> A
>
> BandLHaney@... wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > >From: unschoolr2@...
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: [email protected]
> > > >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling fallicies?
> > > >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:47:12 EDT
> > > >
> > > >Hi all, I am working on an article on the common myths or
> > misconceptions
> > > >about unschooling and unschooling families. We have all heard
> the
> > very
> > > >sad.... If left to there own devices kids would just sit and
> watch
> > TV or
> > > >play
> > > >video games all day. What are some others that you have heard?
> > > >Thanks
> > > >Teri
> >
> > Teri,
> > How about, they can never learn beyond what I can "teach" them or
> they
> > have
> > to have textbooks to learn from.
> > Lisa
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
> >

________________________________________________________________
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Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:35:26 -0700
From: metta <metta@...>
Subject: Re: intro and comment

on 4/17/00 11:50 AM, hjshaltz@... wrote:

> The elder is in the Army,
> has been since before he turned 18, and is doing very well. Getting him
in
> the Army was a challenge, as our Clonlara diploma was not recognized as
> valid. But we got past that hurdle,

Hi Holly! Nice to 'meet' you! If you have a chance, I would really like to
hear more about how you got past this hurdle. I'm gathering info on
college/career stuff and I'd love to hear the details.

Thanks,
--
Thea
metta@...



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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:55:41 -0700
From: David Albert <shantinik@...>
Subject: Re: David Albert



susan wrote:

> hi,
>
> i read this book last fall. i enjoyed it and felt it was a good
> portrayal of one family's approach to opening up a vast world for a
> child by following her lead. but would have loved to read more about
> your younger daughter (and your wife) and her learning experiences
> because it would shown a more diverse picture since their styles and
> approaches seem so different.

Dear Susan --

I would have loved to have written more about Meera as well, but felt it
was more important to end at Aliyah's 10th birthday (for reasons I state
in Skylark). Meera, by the way, is doing just fine! She is an
extremely talented gymnast (spends about 20 hours a week at the gym),
has taught herself to play the flute at an extremely high level, is
currently working her way through Mozart's 23rd Piano Concerto, and
occasionally (though only occasionally) opens a book. She reads well!
it's just that she has decided she has better things to do with her
time!

At the beginning of the year, Meera started taking band with the local
5th grade. About the 5th week in, the teacher decided she should teach
the other kids (she herself had never had even a single lesson) -- well,
we didn't allow this to go on very long, got her moved to 6th grade
band, where she is bored, and stays in with promises that she'll be in
the 8th grade band next year. (she's only 9) Meanwhile, she may have
been the only kid in Washington state enrolled in recess! Recess
followed band, and she wanted to go to the schoolyard with her friends,
so they made us enroll her (allows the school district to capture
revenue! and they think it helps them with liability, though I can't
figure out how.)

Yes, my younger is very different from my older one, but the way we go
about meeting her learning aspirations does not differ in any
substantive way. My wife no longer delivers newspapers (she's still a
massage therapist) -- she now cares intermittently for Alzheimer's
patients in their homes, and has lots of fascinating information to
bring home!


> overall i felt it was honest and fascinating, especially your ability
> to utilizes your community because this is an area i am very weak
> at. but when you have a child whose interests lay well outside your
> own, in your case music and in mine robotics, looking toward the
> community would be the next logically step. i think you covered the
> 'how to' part very well and you showed just how exciting life can be
> when a family embrace learning as a lifestyle.
>

Thanks! You'll find a new interview with me on related subjects in the
May/June Growing Without Schooling -- and Meera is on the cover!

david

--
"And the Skylark Sings with Me" is to homeschooling what Tom Paine's
"Common Sense" was to the American Revolution."--Greg Bates, Common
Courage Press. To read a sample chapter or the foreword, and to get
information about ordering a signed copy, visit www.skylarksings.com or
send an e-mail to shantinik@...




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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:18:46 -0400
From: "K WORTHEN" <kworthen@...>
Subject: Re: unschooling fallicies?

Ann,
I couldn't help but chuckle when I read your response because I do wear
sandals, I am a vegetarian, and although I don't consider myself a hippie, a
lot of other people might:)
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Yates
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling fallicies?


That all homeschoolers wear sandals, are vegetarians, and hippies.
A
BandLHaney@... wrote:


> >From: unschoolr2@...
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling fallicies?
> >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:47:12 EDT
> >
> >Hi all, I am working on an article on the common myths or
misconceptions
> >about unschooling and unschooling families. We have all heard the
very
> >sad.... If left to there own devices kids would just sit and watch
TV or
> >play
> >video games all day. What are some others that you have heard?
> >Thanks
> >Teri

Teri,
How about, they can never learn beyond what I can "teach" them or they
have
to have textbooks to learn from.
Lisa



----------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:25:24 +0100
From: susan <fxfireob@...>
Subject: Re: David Albert

hi david,

thanks for the update! sorry i didn't use meera's name but i literally
just loaned your book out so i couldn't look it up. i remember the thing
about aliyah's b-day, it makes sense and imo the book didn't lose anything
by this. i guess because my son is only 4 those early years, which meera
was in during much of the book, are still very fascinating. thanks again.
i look forward to the new gws mag.

best wishes,
susan,
austin,tx
'unity through diversity'




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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:24:32 -0700
From: Helen Hegener <HEM-Editor@...>
Subject: Need Help: Diversity in Homeschooling?

Dear Friends,

I received a call this afternoon from a reporter working on an article for
a professional magazine in the Washington, DC area. She's trying to
determine if there are any statistics available on the racial/ethnic
diversity of homeschooling families. Anyone know any resources, articles,
or websites I could send her to? Thanks!

Helen
* * * *
Helen Hegener, Managing Editor
Home Education Magazine
HEM-Editor@...
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com





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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:26:23 +1200
From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
Subject: lazy was unschool grad

Annette,
You talk of patience:

> Hafidha wrote (very patiently I thought): "By lazy I mean the inclination
to
> be inert."
>
> If one needs a definition of lazy, I have never seen a better one! This
made
> me laugh out loud!

I think 'patiently' refers better to the parent who allows his / her child
the
space to come to activity on their own. I have never seen an unschooled
child
(and rarely a schooled child) who has an 'inclination to be inert'. This
description would only apply to a child who had had all initiative beaten
out of
them (literally or figuratively) by adults. Non-action is not necessarily
inertness or laziness. Some people are thinkers, and some take a lot longer
to
get through thinking. I don't believe it is possible to know what is
happenning
inside someone else's head. You ask a kid 'what are you thinking about?' and
s/he answers 'nothing', you may think s/he is being lazy or inert, I would
assume that they didn't want to talk to me about it.

In my experience, a 'bored' child left alone to be bored (still talk to them
but
don't nag), trusted to come through, will eventually burst forth in activity
and
creativity, often into a totally new interest.

IMO it is, yet again, a matter of trusting our children - and being able to
keep
trusting, sometimes for a looong time.

Carol



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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:28:41 -0400
From: "A. Yates" <hooperck@...>
Subject: Re: unschooling fallicies?

Hee... Heee.... Amy,
I wear sandals too. I am mostly vegetarian, but I'm too young to be a
hippie! (33)
:) But, I wouldn't mind being called one.
Ann

K WORTHEN wrote:

> Ann,I couldn't help but chuckle when I read your response because I do
> wear sandals, I am a vegetarian, and although I don't consider myself
> a hippie, a lot of other people might:)Amy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: A. Yates
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 3:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling fallicies?
> That all homeschoolers wear sandals, are vegetarians, and
> hippies.
> A
>
> BandLHaney@... wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > >From: unschoolr2@...
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: [email protected]
> > > >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling fallicies?
> > > >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:47:12 EDT
> > > >
> > > >Hi all, I am working on an article on the common myths
> > or misconceptions
> > > >about unschooling and unschooling families. We have
> > all heard the very
> > > >sad.... If left to there own devices kids would just
> > sit and watch TV or
> > > >play
> > > >video games all day. What are some others that you
> > have heard?
> > > >Thanks
> > > >Teri
> >
> > Teri,
> > How about, they can never learn beyond what I can "teach"
> > them or they have
> > to have textbooks to learn from.
> > Lisa
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and
> > more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe:
> > mailto:[email protected]
> >
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>


[This message contained attachments]



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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:51:14 +0100
From: "Tracy Oldfield" <Tracy@...-online.co.uk>
Subject: Re: BABIES!!!

hahahaha!!! I've been told we can't have more than 3 cos we'd have to get an
MPV!!! Dh wouldn't be seen DEAD with one on the drive <bg>

I've always wanted 4 or 6. So I think after the next, any more may have to
be 'accidents.' LMAO :-}

Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: K WORTHEN
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] BABIES!!!


I just had to chime in on this one. I was so disapointed when dh told me
it
wasn't realistic for me to keep having babies and I said I would stop once
we had grand kids LOL. Unfortunatly due to space limitations I think we're
going to have to be done at 3, althogh we won't do anything permantly. If
we
ever get out of our tiny little 2br. house I'd be pregnant with #4 as soon
as we sign the purchase and sale.<G>
Amy



[This message contained attachments]



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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:15:04 +0100
From: "Tracy Oldfield" <Tracy@...-online.co.uk>
Subject: Re: unschooling fallicies?

Hahahaha!! I went to a LLL District Conference recently, where I
'networked,' as one does, as is a functon of such events. The following
weekend we happened to be in the neighbourhood (within 5 miles) of someone
I'd got chatting with, so we dropped in for a visit. Her 18yo daughter
arrived from minding their shop and discovered it was brown rice for tea.
'La Leche League Food!' she exclaimed. We then made a big list of the
League stereotypes, can't remember them now cos I'm tired, but it's so
familiar, anyone seen to be on the fringe gets tarred with the same brush.
And actually, I wear sandals, in Summer, but I love steak and chips. I love
reading, but we have a big tv with dolby sound system, specialist hi-fi with
vinyl collection intact and two computers, one with Internet connection.
Oh, the conflicts! This family can't possibly be doing something as radical
as unschooling!!

Diatribe over :-)
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Yates
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling fallicies?


Hee... Heee.... Amy,
I wear sandals too. I am mostly vegetarian, but I'm too young to be a
hippie! (33)
:) But, I wouldn't mind being called one.
Ann


[This message contained attachments]



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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:47:51 -0600
From: Sonia Ulan <sulan@...>
Subject: Re: BABIES!!!



To all the "Family-Bed" co-sleepers out there;

I remember being really impressed when I once read that Paul and Lynda
McCartney restricted themselves to two bedrooms in their home and they
slept with their four children. Despite having a rather grand English
estate and "all the money in the world", they still had their
priorities: BABIES!!! And close family intimacy.

Now that's a testimonial.

Sonia

susan wrote:
>
> it sounds like you need to start knocking down some walls and instead of
carpet
> get wall-to-wall mattress:) i love sharing a bed. the more the merrier:)
even
> our dogs sleep with us though they don't stay on the bed, just join us for
a bit
> then leave and sleep on the floor.
> -susan
> austin, tx
> 'unity through diversity'
>
> Sonia Ulan wrote:
>
> > We have a 3 bedroom
> > house in yet all 5 of us co-sleep in one room. If we ever have another
> > baby Mom's and Dad's room will be VERY crowded!!! I
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]


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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:59:43 -0700
From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
Subject: Re: 'shyness'

Hello and goodbye!

I just wanted to say a few words on shyness from the perspective of a
British Columbia developmental psychologist Gordon Neufeld. He believes
shyness is a positive naturally occurring quality in children which is
instinctive and promotes attachment of children to their parents. He
recognizes that there are large variances of shyness but he sees it as
an important force for focusing children on the people who care about
them. It is not a problem per se. Very shy children have high
attachment needs which need to be met. I have stopped (mostly)
"encouraging" my children to be "independent". You can't stop
independence when they are ready for it which occurs much later than
most people think. Late adolescence is the time for the natural
emergence of true independence. Independence is forced on children
entirely too early which results not in independence but "peer
identified" children with displaced dependence on their peers who are
ill equipped to meet their real needs.

I was subscribed to this list many months ago but unsubscribed because
my family needed my time more than I needed this list. I really like it
but I can see that I will need to unsubcribe again. I just can't master
the delete key in the way I need to. The topics are too interesting
and I agree and disagree with people so intensely. I have a lot of
experience and ideas to offer but sadly don't have the time.

I would encourage everyone to email Oprah's website and let them know
just how big and varied unschooling and homeschooling are. Oprah is
just mesmerized by schools and teachers. She needs lots of
encouragement to do the topic real justice. So let's try for an email a
week to Oprah for... say three weeks..... psst! Pass it On!

I am leaving this list forthwith.

Anyone who would like to chat can email me at jhawthorne@...

hjshaltz@... wrote:

> Commenting on the thread of the 'shy' child. I personally don't like
> the
> term 'shy'. In my experience, a 'shy' person is generally an
> introvert.
> There's nothing wrong with being an introvert. But it can be
> important for
> introverts to learn the skills that allow comfortable social
> interactions,
> just as it can be important for extroverts to learn skills to allow
> them to
> be comfortable by themselves or in very small groups.
>
> I don't like the term 'shy' because there's a sense of there being
> something
> wrong with the child, when the only thing wrong is assuming all people
> should
> be equally comfortable with strangers and large groups. OTOH, if I
> think of
> 'skills' rather than 'something's wrong with the child', then I can
> focus on
> easy ways to learn those skills, rather than forcing my child to act
> extroverted when in fact she's an introvert. My focus would be in
> helping
> her feel confident rather than making her fit someone else's
> definition of
> extroverted.
>
> Holly
> hjshaltz@...
> HJS Studio and Shaltz Farm Shetlands and Angora Rabbits
> List Mom, [email protected] and [email protected]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>

--
best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/



[This message contained attachments]



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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:14:46 -0700
From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
Subject: Re: unschooling fallicies?

This is what I posted as a comment to a lengthy discussion on
intellectualcapital.com about schools, schooling and teachers:

{ This discussion (the one on intellectualcapital.com) is truly like
discussing astrology or phrenology. A great raft of accepted notions
which have ZERO validity are bandied about with much quoting of
statistics.

The EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES! "Education" is about making money, enforcing
values, stifling questioning, ensuring conformity, destroying the
inherent love of learning, detaching children from their families,
insuring that armies have willing solidiers, protecting the power of the
powerful. To silently witness this discussion is like being ensnared in
a nightmare/dream. Schooling is little better than wholesale
incarceration of the young.

Each day of freedom is bright with promise. Boredom when you are free is
the matrix of creativity. When you are imprisoned boredom is the
cauldron in which cruelty boils. Schools are rife with bullies because
they are run by well-meaning bullies who are oblivious to the fact that
their function is to bully. Just as in a prison, the powerful control
the less powerful right down the line.

I know that people may have good intentions but I just can't stand the
hollowness of this discussion. I know that iconoclasm is only popular if
it is not your icon being thwacked. }

I post this here because arguing with a schooled, schooling teacher is
maddening to say the least.
susan wrote:

> -unschoolers are lazy and don't discipline their children.
>
> -unschoolers are chaotic and are anit-rules just to be anti-rules
> they have no deeper reasons. i.e. unschoolers are contrary and
> non-conformist for it's own sake.
>
> here's a website that really annoyed me because it passes opinion off
> as fact. i think it will provide you with lots of 'fallacies'. the
> author happens to be on our local list and i had a very brief
> interaction but quickly realized (and was advised) it was a waste of
> time because she needed to defending 'teaching' by attacking
> unschooling. imo this is a really silly thing to do. anyway here are
> some excerpts and links to check out for yourself:
>
> 1) Unschooling in Theory ...
> John Holt's philosophy of unschooling is based on a false premise: the
> premise that ideas are innate. His radical position is that children
> automatically know how and what to learn, that they're born with the
> knowledge of how to get nonsense. The proper methods of developing
> one's own intellect have to be learned just like any other knowledge,
> and having a teacher to guide the process is of significant value.
> (See Objective Approach.) A parent who insists that a child must lead
> his own education places an undue burden upon his young shoulders.
> Children do not yet have a broad enough context to see how knowledge
> fits together; they don't mysteriously "know" what they can't possibly
> know. http://www.hometaught.com/app_unschooling.htm
>
> imo: the burden, placed on children, of parents who lack faith in a
> child's ability and desires is the true burden. and the fallacy is
> that unschooling parent don't facilitate the 'fitting together of
> knowledge'. which leads to the denial that children question the
> world around them and that these questions led to the experience of
> 'how knowledge fits together' and these experiences, if not discovery
> naturally but the child, are provided and facilitated by the parents.
> unschooling parents and their children choose a lifestyle of learning
> and thereby don't make a distinction between life and teaching.
>
> 2) Unschooling is: Anti-schooling...
> John Holt's advice to unschooling parents from Teach Your Own (p. 229)
> sums up his theory in practice:
>
> "I say, above all else, don't let your home become [a] miniature copy
> of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes! No tests! No report cards!
> Even leaving your children alone would be better; at least they could
> figure out some things on their
> own. Live together, as well as you can; enjoy life together, as much
> as you can."
>
> In other words, let the child be responsible for his own education.
> You parents don't have to do anything-don't plan a curriculum, don't
> try to evaluate your child's progress, don't try to teach him. Just
> leave him alone to learn from life.
> http://www.hometaught.com/john_holt.htm
>
>
> imo: i don't know how you can 'live together' and then 'leave your
> [kids} alone'. and the point that life-learners are people who have
> developed the skills of self-motivation and curiosity is completely
> lost in this 'interpretation'.
>
> overall this author exhibits a need, for whatever reason, to have
> control over her children and their learning process, yet is not
> secure enough in this position to just do it, but must support the
> position by negating the possibility that there is a way where a child
> can learn and not be controlled. imo we as parents need faith in
> ourselves as well as our children and this is perhaps the toughest
> hurdle presented by unschooling - obviously this author was unable to
> make this 'leap of faith' and perhaps should follow a different
> philosophy.
>
> -susan,
> austin,tx
> 'unity through diversity'
>
> unschoolr2@... wrote:
>
>> Hi all, I am working on an article on the common myths or
>> misconceptions
>> about unschooling and unschooling families. We have all heard the
>> very
>> sad.... If left to there own devices kids would just sit and watch
>> TV or play
>> video games all day. What are some others that you have heard?
>> Thanks
>> Teri
>>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>

--
best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/



[This message contained attachments]



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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:01:05 +0000
From: susan <fxfireob@...>
Subject: Re: 'shyness'



Joel Hawthorne wrote:

> Hello and goodbye!
>
> I just wanted to say a few words on shyness from the perspective of a
> British Columbia developmental psychologist Gordon Neufeld. He
> believes shyness is a positive naturally occurring quality in children
> which is instinctive and promotes attachment of children to their
> parents. He recognizes that there are large variances of shyness but
> he sees it as an important force for focusing children on the people
> who care about them. It is not a problem per se. Very shy children
> have high attachment needs which need to be met. I have stopped
> (mostly) "encouraging" my children to be "independent". You can't
> stop independence when they are ready for it which occurs much later
> than most people think. Late adolescence is the time for the natural
> emergence of true independence. Independence is forced on children
> entirely too early which results not in independence but "peer
> identified" children with displaced dependence on their peers who are
> ill equipped to meet their real needs.

when i was growing up i would have glued myself to my mom if i could
have and was more attached to her that any of my 4 siblings but moved
away from home at 17 and have only been back for visits and a few months
during my 20's. not so for my siblings (one is still living there and
the other have lived there at least 3 yrs) i'm by far the most
independent and rarely went out during my teen years - i just was
interested in it. so this is to say i completely agree with this
statement. the negative view of loners really annoys me i just don't
enjoy being so stimulated all the time just once in awhile.

> I was subscribed to this list many months ago but unsubscribed because
> my family needed my time more than I needed this list. I really like
> it but I can see that I will need to unsubcribe again. I just can't
> master the delete key in the way I need to. The topics are too
> interesting and I agree and disagree with people so intensely. I have
> a lot of experience and ideas to offer but sadly don't have the time.

i can completely agree with you and i entertain the same thoughts. it's
too bad you are unable to find the time to share but it's
understandable.

> I would encourage everyone to email Oprah's website and let them know
> just how big and varied unschooling and homeschooling are. Oprah is
> just mesmerized by schools and teachers. She needs lots of
> encouragement to do the topic real justice. So let's try for an email
> a week to Oprah for... say three weeks..... psst! Pass it On!
>
> I am leaving this list forthwith.
>
> Anyone who would like to chat can email me at jhawthorne@...

from what i've read she's has no intention of doing a hs show but why
not try.

-susan
tx



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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:22:34 -0400
From: "K WORTHEN" <kworthen@...>
Subject: Re: BABIES!!!

That's cool!
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sonia Ulan" <sulan@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] BABIES!!!


>
>
> To all the "Family-Bed" co-sleepers out there;
>
> I remember being really impressed when I once read that Paul and Lynda
> McCartney restricted themselves to two bedrooms in their home and they
> slept with their four children. Despite having a rather grand English
> estate and "all the money in the world", they still had their
> priorities: BABIES!!! And close family intimacy.
>
> Now that's a testimonial.
>
> Sonia
>
> susan wrote:
> >
> > it sounds like you need to start knocking down some walls and instead of
carpet
> > get wall-to-wall mattress:) i love sharing a bed. the more the
merrier:) even
> > our dogs sleep with us though they don't stay on the bed, just join us
for a bit
> > then leave and sleep on the floor.
> > -susan
> > austin, tx
> > 'unity through diversity'
> >
> > Sonia Ulan wrote:
> >
> > > We have a 3 bedroom
> > > house in yet all 5 of us co-sleep in one room. If we ever have
another
> > > baby Mom's and Dad's room will be VERY crowded!!! I
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
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> convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the
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> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
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>
>



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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:42:11 -0400
From: Anita Bower <homequaker@...>
Subject: Re: from unschool grad -shyness

Karen:

I should add that, while my son got along well with some of the kids, there
was one that was a challenge for him. It took several years for the two
boys to work through their differences. Part of it was my son learning to
get along with others. Fortunately, I could talk freely about this with
the other boy's mom.

Anita

At 08:40 AM 4/17/2000 EDT, you wrote:
>Anita,

> I'm sure that was a delight for you to find your son happily
playing
>with new friends! I think my little guy will come through this as he grows
>older, too. Thanks. Karen
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online
>reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day!
>Click here for more details.
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>
>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
>
>
Oxford School District
"There are many will claim to tell you what is due from you, but only one
who can shear through the many, and reach the truth. And that is you, by
what light falls for you to show the way." Brother Cadfael in "The Devil's
Novice" by Ellis Peters.


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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:46:55 EDT
From: hjshaltz@...
Subject: diploma for Army enlistment

Amy wrote:

<>

The Army looked into Clonlara and decided that it wasn't 'real school'
because he never went to classes. All our arguments, including faxes from
Clonlara showing their accredidation, went for naught. Eventually Chris was
'allowed' to enlist during one of the windows in which the Army
'temporarily'
lowers its standards in order to meet quotas :) So he could enlist as a
non-highschool grad.

I was told that the Air Force is not so stinky; I don't know about the
Navy/Marines. But I suspect all the services have those windows, because
they all have quotas to meet. And if your child can do well on the testing
the services give, they will find a way to enlist the child.

Holly
hjshaltz@...
HJS Studio and Shaltz Farm Shetlands and Angora Rabbits
List Mom, [email protected] and [email protected]


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/18/2000 9:42:45 AM, [email protected]
writes:

<<I was subscribed to this list many months ago but unsubscribed because

my family needed my time more than I needed this list. I really like it

but I can see that I will need to unsubcribe again. I just can't master

the delete key in the way I need to. The topics are too interesting

and I agree and disagree with people so intensely. I have a lot of

experience and ideas to offer but sadly don't have the time.>>

I think you can set your preferences to web-only access. That way you can
logon ocassionally, maybe on weekends, and have a taste of the discussion.
It's mostly not linear here. You don't have to keep up with every post.
There will never be any pop quizes! <ggg>

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/18/2000 9:42:45 AM, [email protected]
writes:

<<> 1) Unschooling in Theory ...

> John Holt's philosophy of unschooling is based on a false premise: the

> premise that ideas are innate. His radical position is that children

> automatically know how and what to learn, that they're born with the

> knowledge of how to get nonsense. The proper methods of developing

> one's own intellect have to be learned just like any other knowledge,

> and having a teacher to guide the process is of significant value.

> (See Objective Approach.) A parent who insists that a child must lead

> his own education places an undue burden upon his young shoulders.

> Children do not yet have a broad enough context to see how knowledge

> fits together; they don’t mysteriously "know" what they can't possibly

> know. http://www.hometaught.com/app_unschooling.htm>>

These sound a lot like the ideas Gail Withrow publishes on her website. Is
she the person you were debating with, or was someone else just echoing her
opinions?

I really don't like the way Withrow bashes unschoolers. Her arguments just
don't represent the beliefs of most unschoolers that I have talked with.

Betsy

susan

Cindy Ferguson wrote:

> I also think
> that now that she is a single mother working on supporting her family that
> her views will remain firmly held - after all she wouldn't be such a
> draw as a homeschooling conference speaker otherwise.

i had no idea she was a speaker. personally i find this truly sad. why do we
need people like this represent anyone. i have no problem with her choice to not
unschool but to twist and speak in half truth is really a bad thing. thanks for
the info. it makes me want to really bone up to try and undo some of her damage.

thanks,
susan
austin