Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] growing up responsible
Tia Graham
I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those adults were raised
having
to do chores and other things they preferred not to do. Nobody gave them
the option of not doing them as they were growing up. Once they were "in
charge" they decided not to. I figure it's better to have them deciding
that when they're younger and it doesn't matter much.
have the kind of parent relationships that are absent, either in spirit
or body. They've never had it modelled even, or at the opposite end, had
great modlers as parents and other adults can't understand how the kids
turned out that way. Obviously if the kid grows up to be truly
abandoning, there was a gap somewhere in that "great modeling" the
parents did, but outsiders cant' always tell.
You all seem so confident...I don't hear many of you questioning what you
are doing or worrying about the future.
Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
having
to do chores and other things they preferred not to do. Nobody gave them
the option of not doing them as they were growing up. Once they were "in
charge" they decided not to. I figure it's better to have them deciding
that when they're younger and it doesn't matter much.
>>>You really think? Because most of the one's I've met personally seem to
have the kind of parent relationships that are absent, either in spirit
or body. They've never had it modelled even, or at the opposite end, had
great modlers as parents and other adults can't understand how the kids
turned out that way. Obviously if the kid grows up to be truly
abandoning, there was a gap somewhere in that "great modeling" the
parents did, but outsiders cant' always tell.
You all seem so confident...I don't hear many of you questioning what you
are doing or worrying about the future.
Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza sabater
On Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 09:08 PM, Tia Graham wrote:
Why have my sons defer their lives and their potential to the future
when they can be their potential now? I taught college for 7 years and
still give lectures to high school and college kids and they look so
... lost. There is always the one or two who know why they are there.
They know why they are there because college is a complement to their
lives, not the other way around.
In our society we tell kids that they are not whole yet. Our whole
culture of parenting is based on tomorrow. We tell our kids that they
are not really persons but the potential of a person. That once they
"get educated", "turn 21", "finish college", "get the great
jobs/car/spouse/house/kids", then they are real people.
What about now?
Aren't they complete now? Aren't they real people now?
I am not going to talk for all on this list, but if there is one thing
that unschooling has given me (and it has given me more than one) is
the daily reminder to look at my children as the people they are now.
That means that yesterday is not now. Not even 5 minutes ago is now.
Now is now. By being present to who our children are, as complete human
beings, we can then witness their potentiality unfold.
No, there is no need to worry about the future.
What's important is now.
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
http://typepadistas.com
> You all seem so confident...I don't hear many of you questioning whatBecause the future is now.
> you
> are doing or worrying about the future.
Why have my sons defer their lives and their potential to the future
when they can be their potential now? I taught college for 7 years and
still give lectures to high school and college kids and they look so
... lost. There is always the one or two who know why they are there.
They know why they are there because college is a complement to their
lives, not the other way around.
In our society we tell kids that they are not whole yet. Our whole
culture of parenting is based on tomorrow. We tell our kids that they
are not really persons but the potential of a person. That once they
"get educated", "turn 21", "finish college", "get the great
jobs/car/spouse/house/kids", then they are real people.
What about now?
Aren't they complete now? Aren't they real people now?
I am not going to talk for all on this list, but if there is one thing
that unschooling has given me (and it has given me more than one) is
the daily reminder to look at my children as the people they are now.
That means that yesterday is not now. Not even 5 minutes ago is now.
Now is now. By being present to who our children are, as complete human
beings, we can then witness their potentiality unfold.
No, there is no need to worry about the future.
What's important is now.
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
http://typepadistas.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/03 8:54:45 PM, sixredheads@... writes:
<< You all seem so confident...I don't hear many of you questioning what you
are doing or worrying about the future.
He worked REALLY hard, the officers who were running it liked him, he had a
great time.
The night of the graduation there was a dinner, and I went late to one of the
officers to thank him for working with Marty. He bragged Marty up big, just
GUSHING, and then he said something like "You can always tell when a child is
from a house with a lot of discipline and rules."
I smiled and tried to say politely that we didn't really have many rules at
all, but it wasn't the time or place to explain it all. So I didn't agree
("Yes you can!") because he was QUITE wrong, you can't. And HE had totally
mis-imagined the reasons for Marty's enthusiasm and cooperation.
People look at a result and they say (sometimes internally and sometimes out
there with words) "Obviously your parents didn't discipline you" but in my
experience (long and nosy experience) discipline screws up way more people than
it helps. When I see someone who's twisted and sadistic and dishonest, my
first thought isn't neglect, but over-discipline.
Over the years, for dozens of reasons I've tried to share openly, I have
become quite confident, I don't question the larger goals and principle of what
I'm doing, and I'm not worried about the future.
Tonight my father-in-law and my husband's oldest brother went with me and
Holly to see Kirby at work, because he had left before they arrived, and he won't
be going to the balloon fiesta with them tomorrow. Kirby was
"on"--responsible, organized, funny--and they got to see him get a tournament going with 39
participants. It was a Magic: The Gathering draft tournament (that will mean
something to some of the people here, but not all). The 39 entrants ranged in
age from 11 to their 40s, but everyone was fully attentive to Kirby's
directions (he's 17, but getting to that age where you can't really tell, kinda
16-to-20's looking).
I called him at 11:30 to ask him to be extra quiet when he comes home. He
usually gets off at 1:00 a.m. and then cleans for 20 minutes or so. He said he
will be really late, because they're two nearly hour-long rounds from the end,
and it could be as late as 3:00 or 4:00 before they clean up after all that.
But he'll definitely not wake his grandpa up.
He became responsible without growing up with a lot of discipline and rules.
Sandra
Sandra
<< You all seem so confident...I don't hear many of you questioning what you
are doing or worrying about the future.
>>Marty (14) went to a weeklong Junior Police Academy last summer.
He worked REALLY hard, the officers who were running it liked him, he had a
great time.
The night of the graduation there was a dinner, and I went late to one of the
officers to thank him for working with Marty. He bragged Marty up big, just
GUSHING, and then he said something like "You can always tell when a child is
from a house with a lot of discipline and rules."
I smiled and tried to say politely that we didn't really have many rules at
all, but it wasn't the time or place to explain it all. So I didn't agree
("Yes you can!") because he was QUITE wrong, you can't. And HE had totally
mis-imagined the reasons for Marty's enthusiasm and cooperation.
People look at a result and they say (sometimes internally and sometimes out
there with words) "Obviously your parents didn't discipline you" but in my
experience (long and nosy experience) discipline screws up way more people than
it helps. When I see someone who's twisted and sadistic and dishonest, my
first thought isn't neglect, but over-discipline.
Over the years, for dozens of reasons I've tried to share openly, I have
become quite confident, I don't question the larger goals and principle of what
I'm doing, and I'm not worried about the future.
Tonight my father-in-law and my husband's oldest brother went with me and
Holly to see Kirby at work, because he had left before they arrived, and he won't
be going to the balloon fiesta with them tomorrow. Kirby was
"on"--responsible, organized, funny--and they got to see him get a tournament going with 39
participants. It was a Magic: The Gathering draft tournament (that will mean
something to some of the people here, but not all). The 39 entrants ranged in
age from 11 to their 40s, but everyone was fully attentive to Kirby's
directions (he's 17, but getting to that age where you can't really tell, kinda
16-to-20's looking).
I called him at 11:30 to ask him to be extra quiet when he comes home. He
usually gets off at 1:00 a.m. and then cleans for 20 minutes or so. He said he
will be really late, because they're two nearly hour-long rounds from the end,
and it could be as late as 3:00 or 4:00 before they clean up after all that.
But he'll definitely not wake his grandpa up.
He became responsible without growing up with a lot of discipline and rules.
Sandra
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/03 10:47:06 PM, listdiva@... writes:
<< In our society we tell kids that they are not whole yet. Our whole
culture of parenting is based on tomorrow. We tell our kids that they
are not really persons but the potential of a person. That once they
"get educated", "turn 21", "finish college", "get the great
jobs/car/spouse/house/kids", then they are real people. >>
Liza, that whole "now" post was glorious.
Tonight Holly's Uncle Gerry, who is 55, was going on (as the kids knew he
would do) about something paternalish and philosophical. Holly was trying not to
just laugh. He was telling her now she was getting to the age that her
opinions and ideas would start to count and be heard, and she would get to make her
own decisions. She said her ideas already did count, and he said but he
didn't mean about little unimportant things.
Then *I* was trying not to laugh.
Gerry takes it pretty well that we keep telling him he's going to lose so he
might as well just give up.
Earlier, at dinner, he was saying his oldest son thought he could just stay
home after high school, get a part time job, and live at the house without
paying rent, but he/dad-who-doesn't-live-there anymore but isn't divorced, said
no, he could only earn staying home by going to college. Without going to
school, he couldn't live at home.
Gerry is addressing at that moment me, Brett who just turned 18 yesterday and
is unschooled, Marty who's 14, Holly who's 11, and Keith who is ever more
confident about unschooling.
He said his son considered him some sort of ogre.
Holly said "I think you're an ogre too," but he wasn't really listening to
her.
Nobody was going to agree with him and I said so. He just laughed and said
he guessed he wouldn't get much agreement from this group.
Sandra
<< In our society we tell kids that they are not whole yet. Our whole
culture of parenting is based on tomorrow. We tell our kids that they
are not really persons but the potential of a person. That once they
"get educated", "turn 21", "finish college", "get the great
jobs/car/spouse/house/kids", then they are real people. >>
Liza, that whole "now" post was glorious.
Tonight Holly's Uncle Gerry, who is 55, was going on (as the kids knew he
would do) about something paternalish and philosophical. Holly was trying not to
just laugh. He was telling her now she was getting to the age that her
opinions and ideas would start to count and be heard, and she would get to make her
own decisions. She said her ideas already did count, and he said but he
didn't mean about little unimportant things.
Then *I* was trying not to laugh.
Gerry takes it pretty well that we keep telling him he's going to lose so he
might as well just give up.
Earlier, at dinner, he was saying his oldest son thought he could just stay
home after high school, get a part time job, and live at the house without
paying rent, but he/dad-who-doesn't-live-there anymore but isn't divorced, said
no, he could only earn staying home by going to college. Without going to
school, he couldn't live at home.
Gerry is addressing at that moment me, Brett who just turned 18 yesterday and
is unschooled, Marty who's 14, Holly who's 11, and Keith who is ever more
confident about unschooling.
He said his son considered him some sort of ogre.
Holly said "I think you're an ogre too," but he wasn't really listening to
her.
Nobody was going to agree with him and I said so. He just laughed and said
he guessed he wouldn't get much agreement from this group.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 10/4/03 9:08 PM, Tia Graham at sixredheads@... wrote:
tool to use on others so it's a natural parenting tool. Really tight control
is probably more prevalent in the Bible Belt. Neglect, on the other hand, is
caused by other factors: personal problems, poor priorities, lack of
knowledge of options when you don't want to use control.
Either way, neither controlling or neglectful parents are using unschooling
principles to parent so their results aren't going to be applicable.
If we treat people with respect they're likely to return the respect. Same
goes for children because they're people too even though in this society
they're often treated as less-than-adults. :-/
that's any help to you! :-)
I don't question whether unschooling works any more. I've already spent lots
and lots of time doing that! But I do spend a lot of time analyzing thoughts
about learning and parenting and how it all works.
Worry often comes from lack of information and lack of control. We can't
control our kids but we can control their environment so it gives them what
they need. And if you read here or on the Unschooling.com message boards,
there's loads information.
Unschooling comes naturally to some people but I don't think anyone should
expect to dump a lifetime's worth of indoctrination into schoolish thought
quickly. Life in a schoolish society fills us full of unexamined thoughts.
It takes time to find them and examine them and to figure out how to detach
them from controling our emotions.
I wish understanding and trusting unschooling were as easy as unschooling
is! There isn't much simpler than letting kids learn :-) But if someone
lacks curiosity about life or is filtering their vision through schoolish
lenses they can think they get it but don't really.
Joyce
> You really think? Because most of the one's I've met personally seem toIt might depend what area of the country you're in. Control is a natural
> have the kind of parent relationships that are absent, either in spirit
> or body.
tool to use on others so it's a natural parenting tool. Really tight control
is probably more prevalent in the Bible Belt. Neglect, on the other hand, is
caused by other factors: personal problems, poor priorities, lack of
knowledge of options when you don't want to use control.
Either way, neither controlling or neglectful parents are using unschooling
principles to parent so their results aren't going to be applicable.
If we treat people with respect they're likely to return the respect. Same
goes for children because they're people too even though in this society
they're often treated as less-than-adults. :-/
> You all seem so confident...I don't hear many of you questioning what youWell there's a thread on screw ups on the Unschooling.com message board if
> are doing or worrying about the future.
that's any help to you! :-)
I don't question whether unschooling works any more. I've already spent lots
and lots of time doing that! But I do spend a lot of time analyzing thoughts
about learning and parenting and how it all works.
Worry often comes from lack of information and lack of control. We can't
control our kids but we can control their environment so it gives them what
they need. And if you read here or on the Unschooling.com message boards,
there's loads information.
Unschooling comes naturally to some people but I don't think anyone should
expect to dump a lifetime's worth of indoctrination into schoolish thought
quickly. Life in a schoolish society fills us full of unexamined thoughts.
It takes time to find them and examine them and to figure out how to detach
them from controling our emotions.
I wish understanding and trusting unschooling were as easy as unschooling
is! There isn't much simpler than letting kids learn :-) But if someone
lacks curiosity about life or is filtering their vision through schoolish
lenses they can think they get it but don't really.
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 10/5/03 12:38 AM, liza sabater at listdiva@... wrote:
Joyce
> In our society we tell kids that they are not whole yet. Our wholeThat was awesome Liza!
> culture of parenting is based on tomorrow. We tell our kids that they
> are not really persons but the potential of a person. That once they
> "get educated", "turn 21", "finish college", "get the great
> jobs/car/spouse/house/kids", then they are real people.
>
> What about now?
>
> Aren't they complete now? Aren't they real people now?
Joyce
Betsy
**In our society we tell kids that they are not whole yet. Our whole
culture of parenting is based on tomorrow. We tell our kids that they
are not really persons but the potential of a person. That once they
"get educated", "turn 21", "finish college", "get the great
jobs/car/spouse/house/kids", then they are real people.**
That reminds me, I heard the coolest song on the radio yesterday. (I
usually listen to NPR, so I'm way out of touch with pop music.)
http://www.lyricsmansion.com/result.php?number=2216
Here's some snippets:
**
"Welcome to the real world", she said to me
Condescendingly
Take a seat
Take your life
Plot it out in black and white... ** snip
**I wanna run through the halls of my high school
I wanna scream at the
Top of my lungs
I just found out there's no such thing as the real world
Just a lie you've got to rise above
So the good boys and girls take the so called right track
Faded white hats
Grabbing credits
Maybe transfers
They read all the books but they can't find the answers... **
I just think it's amazingly insightful, and it sounds good, too.
Betsy
culture of parenting is based on tomorrow. We tell our kids that they
are not really persons but the potential of a person. That once they
"get educated", "turn 21", "finish college", "get the great
jobs/car/spouse/house/kids", then they are real people.**
That reminds me, I heard the coolest song on the radio yesterday. (I
usually listen to NPR, so I'm way out of touch with pop music.)
http://www.lyricsmansion.com/result.php?number=2216
Here's some snippets:
**
"Welcome to the real world", she said to me
Condescendingly
Take a seat
Take your life
Plot it out in black and white... ** snip
**I wanna run through the halls of my high school
I wanna scream at the
Top of my lungs
I just found out there's no such thing as the real world
Just a lie you've got to rise above
So the good boys and girls take the so called right track
Faded white hats
Grabbing credits
Maybe transfers
They read all the books but they can't find the answers... **
I just think it's amazingly insightful, and it sounds good, too.
Betsy
Tia Graham
<<
"Welcome to the real world", she said to me
Condescendingly
Take a seat
Take your life
Plot it out in black and white... ** snip
that good :-) Great CD...called Room for Squares I *think*. Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Welcome to the real world", she said to me
Condescendingly
Take a seat
Take your life
Plot it out in black and white... ** snip
>>Yes, John Mayer is *way cool* LOL. I love him! And most of his lyrics are
that good :-) Great CD...called Room for Squares I *think*. Tia in Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/5/03 2:07:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sixredheads@... writes:
PRICELESS.. LOL.. Did anyone else catch SNL last night? Jack Black hosted.. he is
another awesome dude.. we are going to see School of Rock ASAP.. it got great
reviews
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sixredheads@... writes:
> Yes, John Mayer is *way cool* LOL. I love him! And most of his lyrics areHe was great on SNL last night.. and the bit about the thong diaper..
> that good :-) Great CD...called Room for Squares I *think*. Tia in Fl
>
PRICELESS.. LOL.. Did anyone else catch SNL last night? Jack Black hosted.. he is
another awesome dude.. we are going to see School of Rock ASAP.. it got great
reviews
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza sabater
On Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 02:05 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
Thanks. I sometimes hallucinate clearly.
My husband and I have spent 2 out of the last 3 weeks talking about art
and the internet. We were first in Orono-Bar Harbor area in Maine, came
back home to crank out some work and leave pronto for Easton, PA. Two
of the 'georgeouest' places I've ever been two.
Our kids not only came with us. They were with us during the talks and
even participated. Up in Maine, they just did not want to miss anything
and were happy to be with us and the computers in the classrooms. I
guess it shows their unschooled because they actually found the whole
idea of a graduate classroom entertaining. It doesn't hurt either that
these kids have been nursed while at the computer and have always seen
us working. Mommy and Daddy's work is not a mystery to them. So in a
way it was like any other day but with more people and at a different
location.
Well, they blew people away. "How well behaved". "You've taught them so
well". "They are so well trained" (I swear a person said that as if
they were puppies). The thing is, I can't claim I had control of what
went on during those 10 days we were "on the road". My kids get to
choose what they want to do. If we can't agree on it happening at the
time they want, we negotiate. Also, they are really neat people that I
have the honor to have given birth. I'm not just saying it out of
motherly love. I really like them as people. They have interesting
personalities and, if there is one thing that I will take some credit
for is their sense of humor. Still, especially with the little one,
they have expressed their sense of humor from very early on and each
one of them shine for their brand of silliness. Evan is great with
words and dry wit. Aidan is a slut for slapstick and gross humor. And
somewhere we all seem to meet at the intersection of poopy jokes,
Beatles references and Spongebob Squarepants.
The point that I am trying to make here is that I feel that I am more
keeper of the flame than flame-maker. I feel that my kids have these
interesting lives that I have the honor to not just watch unfold but
guide in any way they need. As I told a friend, I sometimes look at
them and feel like I have nothing to do with who they are. Not that I
have no influence, because I do, but that the whole idea of parenting
as authorship of children, as if they where things to be molded and not
human beings living life, has been blown away by my kids greatness.
Beatlemania and all :-)
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
http://typepadistas.com
>:-)
> In a message dated 10/4/03 10:47:06 PM, listdiva@...
> writes:
>
> << In our society we tell kids that they are not whole yet. Our whole
> culture of parenting is based on tomorrow. We tell our kids that they
> are not really persons but the potential of a person. That once they
> "get educated", "turn 21", "finish college", "get the great
> jobs/car/spouse/house/kids", then they are real people. >>
>
> Liza, that whole "now" post was glorious.
Thanks. I sometimes hallucinate clearly.
My husband and I have spent 2 out of the last 3 weeks talking about art
and the internet. We were first in Orono-Bar Harbor area in Maine, came
back home to crank out some work and leave pronto for Easton, PA. Two
of the 'georgeouest' places I've ever been two.
Our kids not only came with us. They were with us during the talks and
even participated. Up in Maine, they just did not want to miss anything
and were happy to be with us and the computers in the classrooms. I
guess it shows their unschooled because they actually found the whole
idea of a graduate classroom entertaining. It doesn't hurt either that
these kids have been nursed while at the computer and have always seen
us working. Mommy and Daddy's work is not a mystery to them. So in a
way it was like any other day but with more people and at a different
location.
Well, they blew people away. "How well behaved". "You've taught them so
well". "They are so well trained" (I swear a person said that as if
they were puppies). The thing is, I can't claim I had control of what
went on during those 10 days we were "on the road". My kids get to
choose what they want to do. If we can't agree on it happening at the
time they want, we negotiate. Also, they are really neat people that I
have the honor to have given birth. I'm not just saying it out of
motherly love. I really like them as people. They have interesting
personalities and, if there is one thing that I will take some credit
for is their sense of humor. Still, especially with the little one,
they have expressed their sense of humor from very early on and each
one of them shine for their brand of silliness. Evan is great with
words and dry wit. Aidan is a slut for slapstick and gross humor. And
somewhere we all seem to meet at the intersection of poopy jokes,
Beatles references and Spongebob Squarepants.
The point that I am trying to make here is that I feel that I am more
keeper of the flame than flame-maker. I feel that my kids have these
interesting lives that I have the honor to not just watch unfold but
guide in any way they need. As I told a friend, I sometimes look at
them and feel like I have nothing to do with who they are. Not that I
have no influence, because I do, but that the whole idea of parenting
as authorship of children, as if they where things to be molded and not
human beings living life, has been blown away by my kids greatness.
Beatlemania and all :-)
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
http://typepadistas.com
liza sabater
On Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 06:40 AM, Fetteroll wrote:
Evan says he is Paul from the Beatles. He starts guitar lessons this
week. He's always been fascinated by guitars and pianos. If I had
space, I would have gone with piano. Guitar, still is exciting to him.
When I tell people he is starting guitar lessons they look at me and go
"oh." You see, in NYC it is not cool to have a kid doing guitar.
Violin, piano --and please, Suzuki method. Guitar, well, whoever heard.
But that is what he wants NOW. Gotta run with it. Especially if we
wants to learn how to play like Paul :-)
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
http://typepadistas.com
> on 10/5/03 12:38 AM, liza sabater at listdiva@... wrote:Thanks.
>
>> In our society we tell kids that they are not whole yet. Our whole
>> culture of parenting is based on tomorrow. We tell our kids that they
>> are not really persons but the potential of a person. That once they
>> "get educated", "turn 21", "finish college", "get the great
>> jobs/car/spouse/house/kids", then they are real people.
>>
>> What about now?
>>
>> Aren't they complete now? Aren't they real people now?
>
> That was awesome Liza!
Evan says he is Paul from the Beatles. He starts guitar lessons this
week. He's always been fascinated by guitars and pianos. If I had
space, I would have gone with piano. Guitar, still is exciting to him.
When I tell people he is starting guitar lessons they look at me and go
"oh." You see, in NYC it is not cool to have a kid doing guitar.
Violin, piano --and please, Suzuki method. Guitar, well, whoever heard.
But that is what he wants NOW. Gotta run with it. Especially if we
wants to learn how to play like Paul :-)
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
http://typepadistas.com
nellebelle
My 8yod wants to try electric guitar. We have a reduced sized classical guitar, so dh says she should learn that instead. But she wants the electric one. I'm working on getting one for her, even if it is just temporary, so she can try it out.
Mary Ellen
Who loves Beatles music too!
Mary Ellen
Who loves Beatles music too!
----- Original Message -----Evan says he is Paul from the Beatles. He starts guitar lessons this
week. He's always been fascinated by guitars and pianos. If I had
space, I would have gone with piano. Guitar, still is exciting to him.
When I tell people he is starting guitar lessons they look at me and go
"oh." You see, in NYC it is not cool to have a kid doing guitar.
Violin, piano --and please, Suzuki method. Guitar, well, whoever heard.
But that is what he wants NOW. Gotta run with it. Especially if we
wants to learn how to play like Paul :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains
Liza, your boys sound wonderful. I hope when we visit family in NY (if we
get lucky enough to do this in the next year) that we can get our boys
together. . Gillen and I are about to start teaching ourselves guitar
(only because we don't have a teacher nearby). I also would prefer piano
and would get a keyboard but Gillen wants to go right to guitar. Once I
introduce the chords (after learning them myself!) I am wondering if he
will want to switch to using chords or will still prefer just "playing"
guitar as he always has. It may be too soon for him. We'll see.
Jesse's favorite song right now is "You Say it's Your Birthday". He is 3
and it's really fun to see him rocking out. I directed kids in a play that
we all wrote together with Beatles songs last Spring. My goal was that
they be introduced to the Beatles and a lot of them still tell me they sing
the Beatles all the time. Yes! We have a CD of kids singing Beatles songs
that they, and my kids, loved. It's called "All you Need is Love". They
like the real thing as well but the kids who sing on the CD are great.
Madeline
At 11:22 PM 10/5/2003 -0400, you wrote:
get lucky enough to do this in the next year) that we can get our boys
together. . Gillen and I are about to start teaching ourselves guitar
(only because we don't have a teacher nearby). I also would prefer piano
and would get a keyboard but Gillen wants to go right to guitar. Once I
introduce the chords (after learning them myself!) I am wondering if he
will want to switch to using chords or will still prefer just "playing"
guitar as he always has. It may be too soon for him. We'll see.
Jesse's favorite song right now is "You Say it's Your Birthday". He is 3
and it's really fun to see him rocking out. I directed kids in a play that
we all wrote together with Beatles songs last Spring. My goal was that
they be introduced to the Beatles and a lot of them still tell me they sing
the Beatles all the time. Yes! We have a CD of kids singing Beatles songs
that they, and my kids, loved. It's called "All you Need is Love". They
like the real thing as well but the kids who sing on the CD are great.
Madeline
At 11:22 PM 10/5/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 06:40 AM, Fetteroll wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> > on 10/5/03 12:38 AM, liza sabater at listdiva@... wrote:
> >
> >> In our society we tell kids that they are not whole yet. Our whole
> >> culture of parenting is based on tomorrow. We tell our kids that they
> >> are not really persons but the potential of a person. That once they
> >> "get educated", "turn 21", "finish college", "get the great
> >> jobs/car/spouse/house/kids", then they are real people.
> >>
> >> What about now?
> >>
> >> Aren't they complete now? Aren't they real people now?
> >
> > That was awesome Liza!
>
>Thanks.
>
>Evan says he is Paul from the Beatles. He starts guitar lessons this
>week. He's always been fascinated by guitars and pianos. If I had
>space, I would have gone with piano. Guitar, still is exciting to him.
>When I tell people he is starting guitar lessons they look at me and go
>"oh." You see, in NYC it is not cool to have a kid doing guitar.
>Violin, piano --and please, Suzuki method. Guitar, well, whoever heard.
>But that is what he wants NOW. Gotta run with it. Especially if we
>wants to learn how to play like Paul :-)
>
>/ l i z a, nyc
>============================
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[email protected]
In a message dated 10/5/03 9:23:08 PM, listdiva@... writes:
<< Well, they blew people away. "How well behaved". >>
My brother in law left yesterday. His parting compliment was "Your children
are always so well behaved."
He said he was especially enjoying being around Holly.
Of all the compliments I enjoy getting, "well behaved" isn't really one of
them.
I appreciate knowing that someone else is happy being with my kids, but I
think it does have that connotation of me having done a good job training them.
It would be cruel for me to discuss it honestly with Gerry, as his kids don't
much like him and they don't communicate openly with him. Partly that's
the separation of their parents and them being poisoned against him by their
maternal grandmother. Partly it's because he treats them badly and demands that
they treat him well.
Sandra
<< Well, they blew people away. "How well behaved". >>
My brother in law left yesterday. His parting compliment was "Your children
are always so well behaved."
He said he was especially enjoying being around Holly.
Of all the compliments I enjoy getting, "well behaved" isn't really one of
them.
I appreciate knowing that someone else is happy being with my kids, but I
think it does have that connotation of me having done a good job training them.
It would be cruel for me to discuss it honestly with Gerry, as his kids don't
much like him and they don't communicate openly with him. Partly that's
the separation of their parents and them being poisoned against him by their
maternal grandmother. Partly it's because he treats them badly and demands that
they treat him well.
Sandra
liza sabater
On Monday, October 6, 2003, at 09:09 AM, Nicolas and Madeline Donck;
Rains wrote:
(whose father, btw, is the musical director for Blues Clues) that loved
"Yellow Submarine" and would sing it all the time. Moses even came one
day and gave a mini-concert and capped off the event with "this is real
rock 'n roll" to the crowd.
Well, up until that day this was a home devoted to almost everything
U2. Then came in Evan with his, "that's not real rock 'n roll, 'cause
their not the Beatles". I had to scramble to get Beatles CD into this
house. One day I decided to rent "A hard day's night" (which Mark and I
had not seen in over 20 years) and that was it. The kids have seen it
already about 15 times. This movie comes second to "Monsters, Inc."
only because we don't own a copy. They almost know all the screenplay
by heart.
One of our family jokes these days has to do with a key phrase in the
movie: "very, clean". These days, every time we meet some one we say
"She's very, clean" or if we do something it'll be, "It's very, clean".
You have to see the movie to understand what I am talking about.
That running joke was started by my 6 year-old, not by me. In the funny
department, that's the kind of joke I would make but he beat me too it!
That's why I just look at them in wonder. It amazes me how somebody so
young can be so incredibly funny. He is either a comic genius or I'm
just a very simple woman --and those that know me would never think of
me as being simple :-)
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
Rains wrote:
> I directed kids in a play thatEvan went to nursery school when he was 3 years old and met a kid
> we all wrote together with Beatles songs last Spring. My goal was that
> they be introduced to the Beatles and a lot of them still tell me they
> sing
> the Beatles all the time. Yes!
(whose father, btw, is the musical director for Blues Clues) that loved
"Yellow Submarine" and would sing it all the time. Moses even came one
day and gave a mini-concert and capped off the event with "this is real
rock 'n roll" to the crowd.
Well, up until that day this was a home devoted to almost everything
U2. Then came in Evan with his, "that's not real rock 'n roll, 'cause
their not the Beatles". I had to scramble to get Beatles CD into this
house. One day I decided to rent "A hard day's night" (which Mark and I
had not seen in over 20 years) and that was it. The kids have seen it
already about 15 times. This movie comes second to "Monsters, Inc."
only because we don't own a copy. They almost know all the screenplay
by heart.
One of our family jokes these days has to do with a key phrase in the
movie: "very, clean". These days, every time we meet some one we say
"She's very, clean" or if we do something it'll be, "It's very, clean".
You have to see the movie to understand what I am talking about.
That running joke was started by my 6 year-old, not by me. In the funny
department, that's the kind of joke I would make but he beat me too it!
That's why I just look at them in wonder. It amazes me how somebody so
young can be so incredibly funny. He is either a comic genius or I'm
just a very simple woman --and those that know me would never think of
me as being simple :-)
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
pam sorooshian
On Monday, October 6, 2003, at 07:46 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
surprised to enjoy being around your kids so much. That just translates
in their heads as the kids having been "well behaved."
-pam
> Of all the compliments I enjoy getting, "well behaved" isn't reallyBut - what they really mean when they say that is that they were
> one of them.
surprised to enjoy being around your kids so much. That just translates
in their heads as the kids having been "well behaved."
-pam
Betsy
**My brother in law left yesterday. His parting compliment was "Your
children are always so well behaved."**
Could you get away with --
"Yes, I've really tried to treat them with consideration and it's helped
them to grow up to be really considerate people."
???
Maybe too confrontational. I get that way with questions that are
"hypothetical" for me, because I don't have a relationship with the person.
Maybe someone else can use the line.
Betsy
children are always so well behaved."**
Could you get away with --
"Yes, I've really tried to treat them with consideration and it's helped
them to grow up to be really considerate people."
???
Maybe too confrontational. I get that way with questions that are
"hypothetical" for me, because I don't have a relationship with the person.
Maybe someone else can use the line.
Betsy
Tia Leschke
At 11:02 AM 10/6/2003, you wrote:
made sure to give them few choices, and beat them every time they looked at
me the wrong way."
Tia
>**My brother in law left yesterday. His parting compliment was "YourOr with a big grin because he knows how you've raised them. "Yes, I always
>children are always so well behaved."**
>
>Could you get away with --
>
>"Yes, I've really tried to treat them with consideration and it's helped
>them to grow up to be really considerate people."
made sure to give them few choices, and beat them every time they looked at
me the wrong way."
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/6/03 10:39:08 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< > Of all the compliments I enjoy getting, "well behaved" isn't really
surprised to enjoy being around your kids so much. That just translates
in their heads as the kids having been "well behaved."
Why can't they say "fun" or "enjoyable"?
Do average humans have such a limited palette of concepts with which to even
THINK about kids and teens?
Sandra
<< > Of all the compliments I enjoy getting, "well behaved" isn't really
> one of them.<<But - what they really mean when they say that is that they were
surprised to enjoy being around your kids so much. That just translates
in their heads as the kids having been "well behaved."
>>That's true.
Why can't they say "fun" or "enjoyable"?
Do average humans have such a limited palette of concepts with which to even
THINK about kids and teens?
Sandra
Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains
At 11:33 AM 10/6/2003 -0400, you wrote:
Night" and will now rent it fom Netflix and invite the boys to watch
too. My class last year loved "Yellow Submarine".
Madeline
>***...Well, up until that day this was a home devoted to almost everythingU2 is often the first choice in this home. I have never seen "Hard Day's
>U2. Then came in Evan with his, "that's not real rock 'n roll, 'cause
>their not the Beatles". I had to scramble to get Beatles CD into this
>house. One day I decided to rent "A hard day's night" (which Mark and I
>had not seen in over 20 years) and that was it. The kids have seen it
>already about 15 times. This movie comes second to "Monsters, Inc."
>only because we don't own a copy. They almost know all the screenplay
>by heart....***
Night" and will now rent it fom Netflix and invite the boys to watch
too. My class last year loved "Yellow Submarine".
Madeline
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Julie Bogart
How did I miss a thread about my beloved U2?!? <bwg> Just
walked past our U2 calendar hanging in the hallway to get to my
computer. Two CDs are permanently in the player. My inbox is
full of U2 articles. And I have Elevation (DVD) in a prominent
place in my bedroom. Did you know they have a new CD slated
to come out next year? Can we wait that long? Bono is one of
five top contenders for the Nobel Peace Prize this year. Grace in
perpetual motionthat's Bono.
Ahem.
Okay, back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)
Julie B (aka crazed U2 fan)
--- In [email protected], "Nicolas and
Madeline Donck; Rains" <madnic@m...> wrote:
*http://ashnin.com/clk/muryutaitakenattogyo?YH=3707890&yhad
=1595055>4500b82.jpg
walked past our U2 calendar hanging in the hallway to get to my
computer. Two CDs are permanently in the player. My inbox is
full of U2 articles. And I have Elevation (DVD) in a prominent
place in my bedroom. Did you know they have a new CD slated
to come out next year? Can we wait that long? Bono is one of
five top contenders for the Nobel Peace Prize this year. Grace in
perpetual motionthat's Bono.
Ahem.
Okay, back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)
Julie B (aka crazed U2 fan)
--- In [email protected], "Nicolas and
Madeline Donck; Rains" <madnic@m...> wrote:
> At 11:33 AM 10/6/2003 -0400, you wrote:everything
>
>
> >***...Well, up until that day this was a home devoted to almost
> >U2. Then came in Evan with his, "that's not real rock 'n roll,'cause
> >their not the Beatles". I had to scramble to get Beatles CD intothis
> >house. One day I decided to rent "A hard day's night" (whichMark and I
> >had not seen in over 20 years) and that was it. The kids haveseen it
> >already about 15 times. This movie comes second to"Monsters, Inc."
> >only because we don't own a copy. They almost know all thescreenplay
> >by heart....***"Hard Day's
>
> U2 is often the first choice in this home. I have never seen
> Night" and will now rent it fom Netflix and invite the boys towatch
> too. My class last year loved "Yellow Submarine".egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1595055/R=0/SIG=124j83ehr/
>
> Madeline
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >ADVERTISEMENT
>
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=244522.3707890.4968055.1261774/D=
*http://ashnin.com/clk/muryutaitakenattogyo?YH=3707890&yhad
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> >4500c22.jpggroup.
> >
> >"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
> >
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> >[email protected]
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> >
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> ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
ton of bricks how different I think about kids compared to the rest of society.
I already knew this, of course, but every once in a while it really hits me
hard.
It's a national blind spot. Like kids don't have the right to exist separate
from schools or parents. The only time I don't see this is in some cartoons.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Do average humans have such a limited palette of concepts with which toYa know, I was watching TV a lot the last coupla days, and it hit me like a
> even
> THINK about kids and teens?
>
> Sandra
>
ton of bricks how different I think about kids compared to the rest of society.
I already knew this, of course, but every once in a while it really hits me
hard.
It's a national blind spot. Like kids don't have the right to exist separate
from schools or parents. The only time I don't see this is in some cartoons.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 12:47:27 PM, AimeeL73@... writes:
<< It's a national blind spot. Like kids don't have the right to exist
separate
from schools or parents. The only time I don't see this is in some cartoons.
Like there are all kinds of adults, but with kids, there are only "good kids"
and "bad kids."
Maybe there are boring kids (dorky, geeky) who are neither impressively
"good" nor dangerously and shamefully "bad."
But the good and bad are from the parents' point of view!! Good for parents.
Bad for paernts.
Eddie Haskell was a good kid, because parents were the judges of "good."
(Leave It to Beaver reference, lest young moms among us ask who Eddie Haskell
is. He was the smarmy-to-adults best friend of Beaver's older brother Wally.
Eddie was a sneaky, lying, bullying creep who always smiled and said "yes
ma'am" and flattered their mom.)
Sandra
<< It's a national blind spot. Like kids don't have the right to exist
separate
from schools or parents. The only time I don't see this is in some cartoons.
>>Exactly.
Like there are all kinds of adults, but with kids, there are only "good kids"
and "bad kids."
Maybe there are boring kids (dorky, geeky) who are neither impressively
"good" nor dangerously and shamefully "bad."
But the good and bad are from the parents' point of view!! Good for parents.
Bad for paernts.
Eddie Haskell was a good kid, because parents were the judges of "good."
(Leave It to Beaver reference, lest young moms among us ask who Eddie Haskell
is. He was the smarmy-to-adults best friend of Beaver's older brother Wally.
Eddie was a sneaky, lying, bullying creep who always smiled and said "yes
ma'am" and flattered their mom.)
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/03 01:00:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:
How did I miss a thread about my beloved U2?!? <bwg> Just
walked past our U2 calendar hanging in the hallway to get to my
computer. Two CDs are permanently in the player. My inbox is
full of U2 articles. And I have Elevation (DVD) in a prominent
place in my bedroom. Did you know they have a new CD slated
to come out next year? Can we wait that long? Bono is one of
five top contenders for the Nobel Peace Prize this year. Grace in
perpetual motion—that's Bono.
Ahem.
Okay, back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)
Julie B (aka crazed U2 fan)
###################
Well now, if you were discussing Sting... THAT would be a whole 'nuther
matter! That man is hot! And his voice...
I need not go on.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
How did I miss a thread about my beloved U2?!? <bwg> Just
walked past our U2 calendar hanging in the hallway to get to my
computer. Two CDs are permanently in the player. My inbox is
full of U2 articles. And I have Elevation (DVD) in a prominent
place in my bedroom. Did you know they have a new CD slated
to come out next year? Can we wait that long? Bono is one of
five top contenders for the Nobel Peace Prize this year. Grace in
perpetual motion—that's Bono.
Ahem.
Okay, back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)
Julie B (aka crazed U2 fan)
###################
Well now, if you were discussing Sting... THAT would be a whole 'nuther
matter! That man is hot! And his voice...
I need not go on.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> (Leave It to Beaver reference, lIs that why I hate that show, even tho the Beav is so cute? lol
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected],
Dnowens@a... wrote:
incredible!!! Get it. Sacred Love. Just saying the words makes
me smile.
Saw him in concert locally and it was such a romantic evening.
Don't you just want *one* of his houses?
Julie B
Dnowens@a... wrote:
> ###################whole 'nuther
>
> Well now, if you were discussing Sting... THAT would be a
> matter! That man is hot! And his voice...LOL! I almost put a P.S. about Sting. He is hot and his new CD is
>
> I need not go on.
> ~Nancy
incredible!!! Get it. Sacred Love. Just saying the words makes
me smile.
Saw him in concert locally and it was such a romantic evening.
Don't you just want *one* of his houses?
Julie B
Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains
U2 has a new CD coming next year?! I told dh and he and I are so
excited. I guess there must be a connection between Bono and Sting (not
that they're European, something more subtle and ... my husband is
European, so maybe that does play into it for me) because I too looooove
Sting. Saw him singing "Message in a Bottle" in "Secret Policeman's Other
Ball" when I was young and have never recovered. I have never seen him
live in concert. But did see U2 last time. Wow.
Madeline
At 10:51 PM 10/7/2003 +0000, you wrote:
excited. I guess there must be a connection between Bono and Sting (not
that they're European, something more subtle and ... my husband is
European, so maybe that does play into it for me) because I too looooove
Sting. Saw him singing "Message in a Bottle" in "Secret Policeman's Other
Ball" when I was young and have never recovered. I have never seen him
live in concert. But did see U2 last time. Wow.
Madeline
At 10:51 PM 10/7/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In [email protected],[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Dnowens@a... wrote:
>
>
> > ###################
> >
> > Well now, if you were discussing Sting... THAT would be a
>whole 'nuther
> > matter! That man is hot! And his voice...
> >
> > I need not go on.
> > ~Nancy
>
>LOL! I almost put a P.S. about Sting. He is hot and his new CD is
>incredible!!! Get it. Sacred Love. Just saying the words makes
>me smile.
>
>Saw him in concert locally and it was such a romantic evening.
>Don't you just want *one* of his houses?
>
>Julie B
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Olga
A few months ago I was shopping in the mall. My kids were being
exceptionally good, especially my 2yo who is usually a very typical
2yo! He was tired so he hung out in his stroller while I was
cruising through the sale racks. As I was leaving the sales woman
proceeded to tell me how well behaved my children were and how she
hated children that didn't listen. I was so peeved at the moment.
I replied something about it being difficult for kids to wait around
that long. I remember thinking that my kids often get crabby
and "misbehave" when we are out and about and more often than not it
is because they have had enough. I am much more atune to that these
days although sometimes they have to put up with me.
I felt insulted that she would even say that to me. As if my
children behaving for HER deserved some sort of praise. I was
almost regretful that they had not been more there usual selves
hiding in the racks! I sort of felt sorry for those that would
follow me with their children that did not fall into her realm of
good behavior.
I think it takes a certain flexable relationship with your child to
understand why they are "misbehaving" and see how your behavior and
actions may be a part of that. Most parents do not think that far.
Olga :)
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
exceptionally good, especially my 2yo who is usually a very typical
2yo! He was tired so he hung out in his stroller while I was
cruising through the sale racks. As I was leaving the sales woman
proceeded to tell me how well behaved my children were and how she
hated children that didn't listen. I was so peeved at the moment.
I replied something about it being difficult for kids to wait around
that long. I remember thinking that my kids often get crabby
and "misbehave" when we are out and about and more often than not it
is because they have had enough. I am much more atune to that these
days although sometimes they have to put up with me.
I felt insulted that she would even say that to me. As if my
children behaving for HER deserved some sort of praise. I was
almost regretful that they had not been more there usual selves
hiding in the racks! I sort of felt sorry for those that would
follow me with their children that did not fall into her realm of
good behavior.
I think it takes a certain flexable relationship with your child to
understand why they are "misbehaving" and see how your behavior and
actions may be a part of that. Most parents do not think that far.
Olga :)
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>really
> On Monday, October 6, 2003, at 07:46 AM, SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> > Of all the compliments I enjoy getting, "well behaved" isn't
> > one of them.translates
>
> But - what they really mean when they say that is that they were
> surprised to enjoy being around your kids so much. That just
> in their heads as the kids having been "well behaved."
>
> -pam
liza sabater
More than one person has said that my husband looks like The Edge :-)
On Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 03:10 PM, Nicolas and Madeline
Donck; Rains wrote:
On Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 03:10 PM, Nicolas and Madeline
Donck; Rains wrote:
>
> U2 has a new CD coming next year?! I told dh and he and I are so
> excited. I guess there must be a connection between Bono and Sting
> (not
> that they're European, something more subtle and ... my husband is
> European, so maybe that does play into it for me) because I too
> looooove
> Sting. Saw him singing "Message in a Bottle" in "Secret Policeman's
> Other
> Ball" when I was young and have never recovered. I have never seen him
> live in concert. But did see U2 last time. Wow.
>
> Madeline
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/8/2003 7:30:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
mccluskieo@... writes:
It's not fair to be irritated about an honest compliment, so I usually just
wish that more parents could be smoother about having kids out with them.
My kids have been difficult in public too, but sometimes it's just time to
buy them some juice or go play on the escalator or something, and with practice
I got better at noticing their cues.
In grocery stores when we were by the candy near the checkout, I would talk
right to them, and maybe play with their hands or feet when they were shopping
cart-riding size, but one of the main things was that if they got interested
in the gum or candy and wanted some, I would have said okay. So it wasn't the
valley of temptation. It wasn't a place to hear "NO" for my kids. It was a
calm place.
So anyway, yeah--it's not coincidence when kids can have fun at a mall or a
grocery store. And it is "well behaved," and partly it's having fun and being
comfortable being out with real people in the real world.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mccluskieo@... writes:
> -=-I think it takes a certain flexable relationship with your child toI've felt that defensive irritation too when people compliment my kids.
> understand why they are "misbehaving" and see how your behavior and
> actions may be a part of that. Most parents do not think that far.-=-
It's not fair to be irritated about an honest compliment, so I usually just
wish that more parents could be smoother about having kids out with them.
My kids have been difficult in public too, but sometimes it's just time to
buy them some juice or go play on the escalator or something, and with practice
I got better at noticing their cues.
In grocery stores when we were by the candy near the checkout, I would talk
right to them, and maybe play with their hands or feet when they were shopping
cart-riding size, but one of the main things was that if they got interested
in the gum or candy and wanted some, I would have said okay. So it wasn't the
valley of temptation. It wasn't a place to hear "NO" for my kids. It was a
calm place.
So anyway, yeah--it's not coincidence when kids can have fun at a mall or a
grocery store. And it is "well behaved," and partly it's having fun and being
comfortable being out with real people in the real world.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]