Tia Graham

Love these stories of adults "playing" and doing things they love for
livlihood. I come from parents who are self-employed artisans, both of
whom play for a living LOL. Keeping the spark alive is definately one of
the top reasons why I rejected traditional schooling.

But are you guys saying, that because you spend *some* of your time
playing, you don't consider work...work? What about running a household?
Dishes? Chores? Check books and other necessary evils? I guess when I
said "grow up" about my kids that I was wondering when in thier lives I
would begin to see that tendancy in them to understand that part of our
lives is "necessarry application" and other is fun and discovery. Even if
we end up in jobs we love, all of life is not fun and games. And those
times that it's not doesn't have to be miserable drudgery but it does
take a willingness and dedication right?

So, is there any time in a child's life when one can expect to see a
pleasant/contented/willing understanding that parts of the day are for
work and other parts are for play? Are there ways to encourage
responsiblity and a joyful dedication to getting those things done that
we don't always prefer that don't communicate "life isn't about
playtime"? Is there a way to thow out the bathwater without tossing the
baby?

So far modeling is as far as I go. But I"d honestly like to raise
children who have healthy priorities. Will that happen with *just*
modeling?

Tia

Shannon

I highly recommend "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter. She
explains the things you are concerned about very well.

Shan

-----Original Message-----
From: Tia Graham [mailto:sixredheads@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 2:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] on playing for life

Love these stories of adults "playing" and doing things they love for
livlihood. I come from parents who are self-employed artisans, both of
whom play for a living LOL. Keeping the spark alive is definately one of
the top reasons why I rejected traditional schooling.

But are you guys saying, that because you spend *some* of your time
playing, you don't consider work...work? What about running a household?
Dishes? Chores? Check books and other necessary evils? I guess when I
said "grow up" about my kids that I was wondering when in thier lives I
would begin to see that tendancy in them to understand that part of our
lives is "necessarry application" and other is fun and discovery. Even if
we end up in jobs we love, all of life is not fun and games. And those
times that it's not doesn't have to be miserable drudgery but it does
take a willingness and dedication right?

So, is there any time in a child's life when one can expect to see a
pleasant/contented/willing understanding that parts of the day are for
work and other parts are for play? Are there ways to encourage
responsiblity and a joyful dedication to getting those things done that
we don't always prefer that don't communicate "life isn't about
playtime"? Is there a way to thow out the bathwater without tossing the
baby?

So far modeling is as far as I go. But I"d honestly like to raise
children who have healthy priorities. Will that happen with *just*
modeling?

Tia



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<But are you guys saying, that because you spend *some* of your time
playing, you don't consider work...work? What about running a household?
Dishes? Chores? Check books and other necessary evils? I guess when I
said "grow up" about my kids that I was wondering when in thier lives I
would begin to see that tendancy in them to understand that part of our
lives is "necessarry application" and other is fun and discovery. Even
if
we end up in jobs we love, all of life is not fun and games. And those
times that it's not doesn't have to be miserable drudgery but it does
take a willingness and dedication right?>>



I used to be in work I loved so much I often did it for free, despite
the dreary parts that attended that work, and the physical exhaustion
that was often part of it. I found something even better - being a
parent. Early in pregnancy I read an article or a book about changing
diapers - how you could see it as a horrible smelly chore, or as a
repeated opportunity to connect deeply with your little baby. Fly Lady
talks about willingly and lovingly "blessing" your home with your
attention to cleaning. Attitude changes everything, including whether
something is fun.

Dedication - do you mean like practicing the piano (drudgery) so you get
good enough to play well enough to enjoy it (fun)?

Some people enjoy balancing checkbooks - it gives them satisfaction and
a sense of control and balance in their life.

Splitting your life into this is fun, and this is "necessary
application" according to your ideas of fun or not, could cause your
children to see activities as chores that they otherwise might enjoy.
Jayn can't get enough of cleaning hard surfaces and swiffering the
kitchen floor.


<<So, is there any time in a child's life when one can expect to see a
pleasant/contented/willing understanding that parts of the day are for
work and other parts are for play?>>



I hope not for Jayn's sake. I hope there is always a fluid mixing and
overlapping - just like marbleizing. Where does the sky cease to be blue
and be absolutely pink during the sunset? Not a line just a color wash.



<<Are there ways to encourage responsibility and a joyful dedication to
getting those things done that we don't always prefer that don't
communicate "life isn't about playtime"? >>



There is so much about chores and helping out in the archives. I say
make a game of as much as possible, so that you are having fun too, and
don't look at your kids with envy because they are free from
responsibility. Sometimes I get mad at my husband because he does
nothing but his play all day long, and I have to do the cleaning. When I
start feeling resentful, unless for some diabolical PMS type reason of
my own I think I prefer to stew for a while, I ask him to help by being
very specific about the actual task I would like him to do. He is
modeling helpfulness just as much as I am modeling joy and caring and
asking for help when needed. Jayn gets upset if she is left out of the
helping activity. (I have learned it is useless for me to expect him to
offer to do something or notice that I need help without my asking for
it - my disappointed expectations are the cause of my resentments, not
what he failed to do)



<<Is there a way to thow out the bathwater without tossing the
baby?>>



I have an image of making a small hole in the bottom of the tub and
letting the water leak out, but I don't know what it means.

<<So far modeling is as far as I go. But I"d honestly like to raise
children who have healthy priorities. Will that happen with *just*
modeling?>>



I'm betting my child's whole life and future that the answer is yes,
although I also believe that her own experiences will lead her to have
priorities that are healthy for her.

What would be the alternatives to modeling? Talking (lecturing) without
doing is futile. Pointing out her mistakes to her is cruel and
unnecessary, although being human I still sometimes make that mistake -
less than I used to. The only other alternatives I can think of are all
the old things that we have renounced - chore lists, expectations,
insisting on things, "consequences", guilting them (sure never worked
with my husband!)

Are there alternatives to modeling that would be compatible with this
Unschooling life of freedom and family trust? I can't think of any, but
that doesn't mean there aren't any.

Robyn Coburn




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Graham

I highly recommend "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter. >>

Thanks for the tip! I'll look for it. Tia in Fl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/2/03 3:25:18 PM, sixredheads@... writes:

<< But are you guys saying, that because you spend *some* of your time
playing, you don't consider work...work? What about running a household?
Dishes? Chores? Check books and other necessary evils? >>

My husband does the checkbook because he likes to.
I know people who don't "do" checkbooks. They go back and forth between
accounts and when they get confused, they switch until the other settles.

Did you choose to "run a household"? Do you do it to someone else's
specifications or your own?

I don't "do chores." A chore is a boring irritating thing someone else makes
you do. That's what the word means.

I wash the dishes because I LIKE my dishes, and I need to use them again.
And I don't have a nice set of hand-painted Italian stuff or anything cool. I
have thrift store things, some matching, but only from repeated searches. I
have some plastic margarine containers from the 70's we bought at a Lion's Club
fundraising sale. But the kids really like them, and Holly and I were
talking just last night about how they fit in around other dishes on the top rack no
matter how many other dishes are in there, because of the shape of these
bowls, they always fit.

Nobody makes me do the dishes. Sometimes I load the dishwasher at night,
sometimes first thing in the morning. Today while I was making tea I scrubbed a
grill and a baking sheet that've been waiting for hand washing. I have some
pans I've had for 30 years. I really like them, too, and I don't let gunk
grow on them. I just scrub them every single time.

I don't need to do those "chores." They're more like personal interests.
Taking care of my collection. I could just let them go grungy and get more when
they were too far gone.

The reason I'm rambling on here is that a simple answer doesn't describe the
difference in the mindset of choosing to take care of my family and choosing
what things to do and what to let go.

I worked on some curtains today. Then my husband asked me to go with him to
get something we need for a sick tree. So I jumped up and left. The
curtains haven't been touched since. We need them because we moved the TV and it
gets glare now. They'll get done, and people will say "cool!" even though it
will have been nearly a week (or more) since we bought the cloth and curtain rod
by the time I get them up there.

Keith and Holly and I bought the rod together, after looking at all the
expensive drapery stuff, and we picked out cloth together, and got it cheap. We
had to look for something heavy that would match a room with fireplace bricks of
grey and black, and wall paper that's tan/brown/blue. But we did it! Shades
of brown with blue swirlies in there.

Every part of all those stories involved interaction with kids, discussions,
service to my family, personal enjoyment. I could work up a martyrly and
resentful attitude about all this, or I can be happy. We could have stayed in
our old house with very small payments, but we're in a big house. When I get w
hiney about how far the vacuum cleaner is from where I need to use it, I just
remind myself how happy I am to have a house big enough for everyone to spread
out and have privacy.

My whole life hasn't been uniformly happy, and I'm not happy every moment
now, but one of my priorities is to maintain a light and loving mood in my
family, as well as I can. I used to do it for the kids' benefit, but it ended up
benefiting me and my husband too.

Luckily for us, he LIKES to do things like taxes and bank accounts.
Luckily for him, I like social stuff and if we're invited to a potluck 120
miles away (10/12 <g>) I can get it together to make sure the kids don't
double-book, that we have a gift and food ready to take, and that we have the map and
phone number.

Teamwork!

<<I guess when I
said "grow up" about my kids that I was wondering when in thier lives I
would begin to see that tendancy in them to understand that part of our
lives is "necessarry application" and other is fun and discovery.>>

Live are unnaturally and unnecessarily divided into parts. There's no reason
not to have fun doing what's necessary.

<<Even if
we end up in jobs we love, all of life is not fun and games.>>

Some people think children should practice not having fun so they'll prepared
for unhappiness. Some people think children should get up at daybreak every
day so if they have an early morning job someday they'll be prepared. Some
people think children should go to school and suffer harrassment and torture so
they'll be prepared for irritating bosses, co-workers and neighbors when they
grow up.

<<And those
times that it's not doesn't have to be miserable drudgery but it does
take a willingness and dedication right?>>

Kirby has had a job for three years and some. Sometimes he doesn't want to
go, but he does go. He teaches karate usually once a week, but for a while
here it will be twice a week. Sometimes he'd rather not, but he does it because
he agreed to and people will be showing up there and he needs to be there too.
We didn't make him do either of those things. We help him. We remind him
and transport him (he got a license last week, though). We pay his karate
dues and buy him new equipment. He doesn't do it ALL by himself, but he made
choices at the tender ages of 14 and 15 which he still honors.

If it were NOT fun or if it were unacceptable to him morally or however, he
could quit.

<<So, is there any time in a child's life when one can expect to see a
pleasant/contented/willing understanding that parts of the day are for
work and other parts are for play? >>

Sure, but what's worth much more is the time in an unschooling mom's life
when she stops looking to divide the day into parts.

<<So far modeling is as far as I go. But I"d honestly like to raise
children who have healthy priorities. Will that happen with *just*
modeling?>>

Discussion? Examples? Stories of our real lives and other people's?

My kids seem to have healthy priorities.

Lots of other adults might say I don't have healthy priorities since some of
my top items are the children's peace and happiness, having some happy
surprises in our lives, watching lots of movies, helping other people unschool,
listening to lots of music. Yet my kids are learning lots, and my husband and I
are getting along well.

What could be more important? Bedtimes and math scores?
I don't think so.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/2/03 6:02:14 PM, dezigna@... writes:

<< Dedication - do you mean like practicing the piano (drudgery) so you get
good enough to play well enough to enjoy it (fun)? >>

But you can play it for fun and still get better.
That "practice" is a chore and drudgery is another part of that whole
work-ethic guilt-trip mythos which has smothered the joy out of several generations
of people.

Sandra

catherine aceto

For a little while recently I was taking lessons to play the fiddle (I had to stop because pregnancy gave me carpal tunnel so badly I couldn't feel my hands -- I'm nearly recovered and hope to start lessons again soon). I couldn't WAIT to practice the fiddle. In a perfect world i would have practiced the fiddle nearly every hour of the day. Music practice can be such a clear and easy way to get a near-nirvanic "flow" experience -- it is drudgery, IMO, only if someone else is controlling your musical goals.

-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] on playing for life



In a message dated 10/2/03 6:02:14 PM, dezigna@... writes:

<< Dedication - do you mean like practicing the piano (drudgery) so you get
good enough to play well enough to enjoy it (fun)? >>

But you can play it for fun and still get better.
That "practice" is a chore and drudgery is another part of that whole
work-ethic guilt-trip mythos which has smothered the joy out of several generations
of people.

Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<That "practice" is a chore and drudgery is another part of that whole
work-ethic guilt-trip mythos which has smothered the joy out of several
generations
of people.>>



I wasn't writing clearly enough for my irony to come through when I gave
a musical example. I completely agree with the above. Another example is
typing. I got really fast without even realizing it when I was typing my
script up the first time - as compared to the much lower top speed I was
able to reach in typing school typing "exercises".

One of the things being on this list does is make the questioning of
"conventional wisdom" absolutely habitual. Sometimes it still holds
true.can't think of an example off the top of my head.often it is
revealed as wrong for us.

Robyn Coburn







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 10/2/03 5:15 PM, Tia Graham at sixredheads@... wrote:

> I guess when I
> said "grow up" about my kids that I was wondering when in thier lives I
> would begin to see that tendancy in them to understand that part of our
> lives is "necessarry application" and other is fun and discovery.

At 11 my daughter Kat began voluntarily helping me to do things like bring
in the groceries and put them away. A couple of times she noticed the
bathroom sink was dirty and cleaned it and then asked what I thought of the
job she did to make sure I'd noticed she'd done it. :-) She's 12 now and has
seen the cat litter on the floor of the bathroom a number of times and has
cleaned it up without even mentioning she did it.

She's doing these things not because she sees the necessity but because she
wants to. There's a part of her world that affects her sensibilities of
rightness and she recognizes she has the ability to right it to her
standards. It's part of changing body chemistry and it changes the way
humans see their world.

As she was growing up I've done both demanding she help -- when company is
coming and I'm in a tizzy -- and I've asked if she'd like to help. Asking
works much better! ;-)

Demanding gets more work but it creates a negative relationship. I realized
that getting grumpy and making her cry was too great a price to pay for
something that not only wouldn't make a difference in 10 years but, in fact,
I was making her upset for a mess that would very likely return tomorrow.

When Kat was younger, housework was well beyond her. Even low key things
like folding kitchen towels or sorting socks or underwear, she had no
interest in. Given the choice of helping so it goes faster or waiting for me
to finish, she always chose waiting (impatiently). So asking didn't get me
much help, but when she did want to do something, like the stirring and
pouring parts of cooking, the time was spent happily together.

My mother was made to do chores as a kid and she decided she'd never do that
to her kids. And she didn't. She did all the work. She also assumed that at
some point we'd help out. But we didn't. And I think it was because she
never invited us along to help. And then it was puzzling to us as teens why
she'd be upset that we weren't helping when she'd been doing the work all by
herself all along. She and school kept us living separate lives. It was a
fine family life and childhood, sort of a Leave it to Beaver/Father Knows
Best etc. type of structure to the family, but lacking the connections I now
realize could have been there.

I think kids can be trained early to do things parents want them to do. They
can also be trained not to complain. Sometimes at puberty they then get that
urge to set their environment right and the parents feel like they did a
good job training them. But sometimes at puberty they realize they have the
power to demand that they not be pushed around anymore and they suddenly
seem to turn into "bad kids" when the parents felt they were doing
everything right all along.

So bottom line is to shift your point of view to recognizing that the house
and the decisions about how it's maintained are yours. Recognize that you
have a choice about how it's kept. No one makes you clean to a certain
standard. Give yourself permission not to do things. It helps a great deal
when you shift your perspective from having to do the dishes to doing them
because you would like to have some clean plates.

And then, invite the kids along to help. Create an atmosphere that they'd
like to join in. (Hint: being a grump because company's coming in 2 hours
and the house is a disaster is not a good way ;-) Rather than seeing the
invite as soliciting help with something burdensome, see the invite as an
opportunity to spend time with you and the work is incidental. You can even
just ask if they'd like to do something in the same room with you while you
do work on something or bring the work to them, like folding laundry, so you
can be in the same room they're playing in.

Joyce

Tia Graham

Did you choose to "run a household"? Do you do it to someone else's
specifications or your own?

I don't "do chores." A chore is a boring irritating thing someone else
makes
you do. That's what the word means.

>>>

Yes of course I chose it. And I do it mostly to my own specs, though I
sometimes do things dh's way because I love him. I have what I'd consider
to be a pretty good attitude about it all too...obviously there are parts
of it that I love more than others. This is *my* dream and I support my
own dream. I don't do chore lists or force anyone to help me with my
stuff. The kids help as they want to but they are not expected to nor
required to.

But really, right now, I'm thinking I just must be a lesser woman than
you. Because while I love being a mom and housewife, I hate doing the
dishes. That simple job takes alot of mental discipline and diligence on
my part...my attention wanders everywhere and it's hard to finish. I'm
also not the only one who lives here and dirties them. Dh is wonderful in
that he supports an "I made the mess, I'll clean the mess" attitude. The
kids pick up on it and do things automatically, like clear thier own
place at the table. But they often have an "I'm here for you to serve me"
attitude. I *am* here to care for them but I not to the exclusion of the
rest of life, when they are capable of some of this themselves. I'm not
willing to let this point cost me a good relationship with them, and will
wait gently and patiently for them to reach a place where they are
responsible for thier own selves.

But you know, parts of life really suck, no matter how much I were to
focus on not seperating parts. My own life has shown me over and over
that there are indeed times when you just have to "suck it up and do it",
even if it causes pain or inconvenience. And sometimes the grass *isn't*
greener on the other side. Whether it's scrapping poop off a cloth
diaper because the greater goal is to CD or sitting for endless hours in
a child's hosptial room, there are times it has to be done. And not
everyone lives that way...there's a disposable market for those who don't
want to go through the messier parts of cloth diapering and I've seen
parents drop thier kids off for open heart surgery and go on a cruise
because "it's too hard to watch her go through that".

<<Some people think children should practice not having fun so they'll
prepared
for unhappiness. Some people think children should get up at daybreak
every
day so if they have an early morning job someday they'll be prepared.
Some
people think children should go to school and suffer harrassment and
torture so
they'll be prepared for irritating bosses, co-workers and neighbors when
they
grow up.
..

Well, that's not me. But I do think they should know that there will be
times of unhappiness and be prepared to meet the challenge. Wouldn't that
sometimes mean doing something they don't like very much, because it
needs to be done, before going out to play?

I know in the nitty gritty of my heart, I'm not okay with a life
philosophy that centers on "if it's fun I'm here, and if it's not, I'm
gone". Certainly enjoyment and fun should be a goal, but not the end-all,
be-all. "Fun" is not my god.

It's great to come along side someone struggling and make it easier, more
enjoyable. "Many hands make for light work" and all that. But to just not
do the thing at all because no one enjoys it? I hate dishes and so does
everyone in my house. But we have a responsiblity to the planet not to
over use paper products. Polluting the place for so many others isnt'
justifiyable just because "I don't like that job". Right now, as the mom
of small kids, I just do it. Sometimes I light a candle and play music
while I do, to make it more enjoyable. Isn't the greater lesson how to
make something necessary as nice as possible and still accomplish it,
rather than avoidance because we don't prefer it?

<<Lots of other adults might say I don't have healthy priorities since
some of
my top items are the children's peace and happiness, having some happy
surprises in our lives, watching lots of movies, helping other people
unschool,
listening to lots of music. Yet my kids are learning lots, and my
husband and I
are getting along well.

What could be more important? Bedtimes and math scores?
I don't think so.
>>>

Gosh...does it have to be one or the other? I don't want bedtimes set in
stone...but I do want my kids to get enough sleep. I couldn't care two
nits about math scores, but I want to know they can add and subtract and
get by in life. Can't my top priorities include my kid's peace and
happiness, spending fun times together, learn lots, help others... *and*
live moderately and responsibly?

Tia in Fl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/3/2003 4:38:05 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
-=-I think kids can be trained early to do things parents want them to do.
They
can also be trained not to complain. Sometimes at puberty they then get that
urge to set their environment right and the parents feel like they did a
good job training them.-=-

I think there's another aspect of the urges of puberty, and that is to have a
change, and to be more mature.

If a child has been forced to "do chores" simply because he's a child, he
will look forward to the time when he doesn't have to do that because it's kid's
work. When puberty comes he will rebell.

If work is treated like something adults do because they want to, when
puberty comes and the child is stretching toward what more-adult thing he might do
to show he's growing up, maybe doing housework can come under his new stretch.

It's working that way here. Holly wanted to mop the floor with no help, and
not even a witness. So I went to bed, but I bragged her up in the morning.

Kirby has had his license for nine days (I'll stop counting soon, honest).
Last night he took the car to the gaming shop after dinner. He called after a
while to say he wanted to go to someone's house and then to his friend Will's,
where he often spends Thursday nights. I said fine but said Holly wanted to
go shopping 11:00 Friday morning, so please be back by then.

He came back around midnight.

At noon, he said he wanted to go to the gaming store, and would be back at
4:00.

At 1:30 he came home with a friend, to find some more cards, and right now
they're eating in the kitchen and telling stories.

Because he had a lot of freedom before he could drive, he wasn't wound up
like a rubber band that had been twisting and twisting waiting for freedom.
He's relaxed, and likes to be home.

The current issue of Gentleman's Quarterly, I learned on Wayne Brady the
other day, has an article on "The Rock," so I bought a copy for Marty when I took
Holly on her shopping outing this morning. It also has Jack Black and Conan
O'Brien, two other guys Marty really likes.

I was sitting in Keith's office this morning reading it, when Kirby came back
to find me. He said "Don't read that, come listen to these songs I
downloaded!" So I followed him back to his room (a long way) and we sat and listened
to songs.

I could have spoiled the moment by complaining about the state of his room,
or by stopping to make him help me fold his laundry on the way through the den,
but he had walked a long way to find me, and I just followed him back.

My point is that they have freedom and they're soft and glad to be home and
to hang around with us.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Graham

<Splitting your life into this is fun, and this is "necessary
application" according to your ideas of fun or not, could cause your
children to see activities as chores that they otherwise might enjoy.
>>

I don't divide these parts of life...I"m talking about situations/needs
that come up that they don't want to do. I think life and personal
preference divides them just fine on it's own. One way I've spoken
recently was to say, "I know you don't like this, but it still has to get
done." I might tack on, "If you'd like, I'll help you and we can get it
done faster" or "maybe you'd like some music on while you do that". I
don't have categories on my wall of "fun stuff" and "not fun stuff" for
them to check off ;-).

<<Dedication - do you mean like practicing the piano (drudgery) so you
get
good enough to play well enough to enjoy it (fun)?

>>

No, not really. Practice can become it's own fun. So can almost any
"chore" really. But it's not *always* and just being not fun doesn't
always eliminate the need for it to be done.

I don't expect this mature attitude from my young kids. But is any part
of parenting "you get out what you put in"? I want to raise children who
become responsible adults, joyful and playful, imaginative, helpful to
others, who don't abandon responsibilities just because thier interest
wanes. Shouldn't I live in a way that prepares and expects that? I'm not
talking about at the expense of the relationship, or in a way that
communicates disappointment or pressure. But living it, telling them why
I live it, giving them chances to try it?

I've really seen alot of examples of adults who only do what they feel
like...from leaving toddlers alone for 3 weeks (in the news here in my
neighborhood!), to not being able to feed a work crew on Saturday because
no one wants to volunteer a casserole, to gosh...the neighbors who public
school "to get away from thier kids for a few hours". I'd so much prefer
not to raise that kind of child.

Tia in Fl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/3/03 3:39:23 PM, sixredheads@... writes:

<< But really, right now, I'm thinking I just must be a lesser woman than
you. Because while I love being a mom and housewife, I hate doing the
dishes. >>

I hate floors. My floors are grungy, but my stove and oven are always very,
very clean.

If transportation were no object, I'd gladly exchange oven cleaning for
sweeping and mopping with any and everyone.

<<That simple job takes alot of mental discipline and diligence on
my part...my attention wanders everywhere and it's hard to finish. I'm
also not the only one who lives here and dirties them. >>

But you're the only one who is the mom.
There's a reality to that whether we like to admit it or not.


<< But they often have an "I'm here for you to serve me"
attitude. I *am* here to care for them but I not to the exclusion of the
rest of life, when they are capable of some of this themselves.>>

Modelling that better attitude so that they want to serve you too might work
better than convincing them that you are not there to serve them.

<<I'm not willing to let this point cost me a good relationship with them,
and will
wait gently and patiently for them to reach a place where they are
responsible for thier own selves.>>

Do you want them just to be responsible for them own selves? Wouldn't a
feeling of service by doing whatever's in front of them for whoever might
contribute be overall better than the idea that they're responsible for their personal
stuff/mess/selves?

<<But you know, parts of life really suck, no matter how much I were to
focus on not seperating parts.>>

I ran over a cat.
A friend of mine died a few years ago.
I broke my leg.
Marty's friends stood him up one day.

Those things suck.

<<My own life has shown me over and over
that there are indeed times when you just have to "suck it up and do it",
even if it causes pain or inconvenience. >>

In such cases you have chosen to inconvenience yourself because of something
you want, some desire or avoidance of your own. You've chosen something
because the alternative seemed worse to you.

If my husband were disabled I would wash him and wipe his ass. I wouldn't
HAVE to, but I would choose to.

<<And sometimes the grass *isn't*
greener on the other side. >>

If you make your own life happy, the life will never be greener on the other
side.

<<Whether it's scrapping poop off a cloth
diaper because the greater goal is to CD>>

I don't know "CD" in this context, but I had three children by choice, and
I've used cloth diapers. I wanted clean diapers because I loved helping make
the babies comfortable. I couldn't afford to throw cloth diapers away and buy
new ones, because they're too expensive. But I chose it and I could have
worked up a big tearful whine, or I could sing and smile and be happy.

<<But I do think they should know that there will be
times of unhappiness and be prepared to meet the challenge.>>

They know that.
Would you break a child's finger so he would be prepared to meet the
challenge of a possible (but not definite) future broken arm or leg?

Sorrow doesn't prepare people for sorrow.
A big store of happiness makes sorrow easier to bear.

<<I know in the nitty gritty of my heart, I'm not okay with a life
philosophy that centers on "if it's fun I'm here, and if it's not, I'm
gone". >>

You can choose to summarize what people are saying here to mean that, but
it's not fair or true.

<<"Fun" is not my god.>>

Cheating, rhetorically speaking.
Nobody said that. You're purposefully creating a false image to knock down.
It's called "attacking a straw man."

<<Certainly enjoyment and fun should be a goal, but not the end-all,
be-all. >>

If they can be a sure by-product of other goals, why would you choose against
that?

<<Sometimes I light a candle and play music
while I do, to make it more enjoyable. Isn't the greater lesson how to
make something necessary as nice as possible and still accomplish it,
rather than avoidance because we don't prefer it?>>

Maybe the greater lesson for your children can be not to begin with
resentment and avoidance. They're not living the life you lived as you grew up. They
won't necessarily have your prejudices and attitudes.

People here are trying freely and generously to help you see a way to have a
calmer and happier life.

Kids can learn their own ways to make life more enjoyable, but if you don't
set "tasks and chores" in front of them, you won't have pre-defined some things
as probably boring, likely not nice.

<<What could be more important? Bedtimes and math scores?
I don't think so.
>>>
<<Gosh...does it have to be one or the other? >>

Some people do have priorities that involve a lot of rules and "goals."
I live by principles and the confident knowledge that kids will learn math,
reading, geography and all those things.

Bedtimes and test scores are not on my lists whatsoever.

<<I don't want bedtimes set in stone...but I do want my kids to get enough
sleep.>>

My kids get all the sleep they need because they go to sleep when they want
to and wake up with they wake up. If they need to get up earlier for
something, they ask me to wake them up or they use alarm clocks (or both).

<< I couldn't care two nits about math scores, but I want to know they can
add and subtract and get by in life. >>

You'll know they can add and subtract the same way you learned that they
could talk, walk and ride a bike. You see them doing it.

<<Can't my top priorities include my kid's peace and
happiness, spending fun times together, learn lots, help others... *and*
live moderately and responsibly?>>

You seem to be suggesting that some one or several someones here are
recommending living irresponsibly (and extravagantly? "moderately" as opposed to
what?).

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/3/03 3:50:26 PM, sixredheads@... writes:

<< One way I've spoken
recently was to say, "I know you don't like this, but it still has to get
done." I might tack on, "If you'd like, I'll help you and we can get it
done faster" or "maybe you'd like some music on while you do that". >>

Oh!
That's been my best tool/method/trick (can't think of a word for it because I
haven't thought of it that way before).

There's a standing offer for me to help with anything the kids need to do.
Since I'm always willing to help them, they very often volunteer to help me.

If I ever once force one of them to do something alone without help, I would
be teaching them that it's perfectly okay to refuse to help someone. My mom
forced me to do things while she sat around and smoked cigarettes. To this day
I rarely voluntarily help her. (There are other factors, but I don't feel
guilty if I say no, and I have helped her LOTS, and lots more than she has
helped me, overall.)

<<I don't expect this mature attitude from my young kids. But is any part
of parenting "you get out what you put in"? I want to raise children who
become responsible adults, joyful and playful, imaginative, helpful to
others, who don't abandon responsibilities just because thier interest
wanes. Shouldn't I live in a way that prepares and expects that?>>

That's exactly what we're recommending to you. There are lots of families
here with responsible teens, joyful, playful, imaginative, hepful to others, who
don't abandon responsibilities.

We're trying to share with you how they became that way. It wasn't from
making them do things they didn't want to do when they were younger.

<<I'm not
talking about at the expense of the relationship, or in a way that
communicates disappointment or pressure. But living it, telling them why
I live it, giving them chances to try it?>>

They have chances to try.
It seemed you were talking about being made to "try" (and finish).

Sandra

Tia Graham

<<
<< One way I've spoken
recently was to say, "I know you don't like this, but it still has to get
done." I might tack on, "If you'd like, I'll help you and we can get it
done faster" or "maybe you'd like some music on while you do that". >>

Oh!
That's been my best tool/method/trick (can't think of a word for it
because I
haven't thought of it that way before>>

This was a relieving point. Some misconception of how I am and how I
*actually* parent (versus my thoughts which I've been posting about)
seems to be coming into replies to me. I'm sure on this list you get lots
of people who put ya'll on the defensive or imply nasty things. But I did
state in my first post that I've been working at this (unschooling) for a
few months. I also non-coercively parent, don't do chore lists, respect
my kids. I'm relatively new to uns yes, and still sorting through some
thought lines. But I don't parent in alot of the ways that has been
implied.

<<There are lots of families
here with responsible teens, joyful, playful, imaginative, hepful to
others, who
don't abandon responsibilities.
>>

I'm sure there are. What I'm struggling with though, is that there are
lots of people in the *world* who don't have kids like that. Sometimes
it's obvious that it was the parenting that caused it and sometimes not.
I"m not accusing unschoolers of turning out these kids...I'm asking for
some reassurance that unschooling can help prevent that.

Tia in Fl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
**Sorrow doesn't prepare people for sorrow.**

Sometimes it does. It, atleast, can take away the shock that bad
things can happen.

**A big store of happiness makes sorrow easier to bear.**

Absolutely true.
The more happiness there is in your life, the harder it is for sorrow
to consume you.

In my experience,
Joanna

Tia Graham

<<
<<That simple job takes alot of mental discipline and diligence on
my part...my attention wanders everywhere and it's hard to finish. I'm
also not the only one who lives here and dirties them. >>

But you're the only one who is the mom.
There's a reality to that whether we like to admit it >>

Yup. And clean dishes to eat from are important to me. My family isn't
old enough to clean thier own, or I'd just wash my own and let them work
out for themselves what was important to them. So, for now, I wash
everyones' unless dh does it. I signed up for that when I birthed them
and I don't resent it. But what is "old enough"? When I first asked about
this, it was an attempt to hear from older families as to when they
started seeing thier kids care about stuff like environment.

<<If my husband were disabled I would wash him and wipe his ass. I
wouldn't
HAVE to, but I would choose to.

>>

Glad to hear it. Because I want to raise kids that would choose too as
well. Not bolt for the door because it wasn't the fun they thought they
deserved. I'm NOT saying unschooling produces that attitude...please
don't anyone think I'm implying that!

<<If you make your own life happy, the life will never be greener on the
other
side.
>>

Good point.

<<. But I chose it and I could have
worked up a big tearful whine, or I could sing and smile and be happy.
>>

That's what I'm after! Of course "being after" or "raising" someone
probably is the *wrong* lingo to use here. I'm not saying I'd love my
kids less if they didn't turn out that way. But being on this side of it,
when they are small and we are in the beginning, I think it's best to be
honest with myself and admit that I do care about my influence over them
and the effect it can have on how they mature.

<<Would you break a child's finger so he would be prepared to meet the
challenge of a possible (but not definite) future broken arm or leg?
>>

That's obnoxious. Of course not. But I might use some prior example of
when they persevered in something to encourage them to keep it up in
another instance. For ex: my son struggled for three years to learn the
twinkle variations on his violin. He did it and was so proud! Now when he
struggles over a new piece but *wants* to keep going and is so frustrated
he can't get it, we talk about how hard it was to keep going for Twinkle
and how great he felt when he did it.

I bet when my grandmother dies, my kids will remember more about when
thier sister or dog died.

<Sorrow doesn't prepare people for sorrow.
>>

I disagree. I made it through some particulary grievous sorrow just today
purely on the fact that a previous and much greater sorrow was survived.
I can make it through this because I made it through that, which was so
much harder. This isn't sorrow that's avoidable and no one is inflicting
it on me. No one person or thier attempt to prepare me could have done
it...the previous sorrow itself is what prepared me. I'd never inflict
sorrow on another to "prepare" them. But I'd talk, talk, talk, and I'd
help them relate small sorrows to survival strategies for larger ones.

I know parents who shelter their kids from any kind of negative
consequence. For instance, my neighbor went to her middle school son's
locker last night and cleaned it out for him. She didn't want him to miss
any assignments. I said, "Why can't he clean out his own locker?" She
laughed and said he didn't know how and couldn't be trusted to do a good
job. And I was thinking, "He'll never know how either if you don't let
him."

I was thinking that this kid missing an assignment or two just might be
the example he needs to live through in order to discover it's important
to keep up with things well. Or maybe he needs her to help him, get him
an organizer, and explain how it's done. Or maybe he doens't care at all
and they both need to face that. But her doing it for him, in order to
keep him from facing any sorrow (and ruining his afternoon fun) isn't
resulting in anything but a continuance of frustration on her part. She's
getting madder and he's getting messier.

<<<<<I know in the nitty gritty of my heart, I'm not okay with a life
philosophy that centers on "if it's fun I'm here, and if it's not, I'm
gone". >>

You can choose to summarize what people are saying here to mean that, but

it's not fair or true.
>>

I wasn't speaking of people here. I was articulating to myself what I
felt about how far I'm willing to take the pursuit of happiness.

<<<<"Fun" is not my god.>>

Cheating, rhetorically speaking.
Nobody said that. You're purposefully creating a false image to knock
down.
It's called "attacking a straw man.">>

I *never* said anyone did. I was checking my priority, and also trying to
clarify where I stand for you all who don't know me well. I would imagine
that for some people, in the world because I see them, that fun is
absolutely thier god, the thing they'd do anything for. I'm saying, I
have a personal line that I"m not willing to cross.

<<You seem to be suggesting that some one or several someones here are
recommending living irresponsibly (and extravagantly? "moderately" as
opposed to
what?).
>>

Nope. I only know one person here. I'm not suggesting anything about
anyone here, least of all any of the kind people who have written me and
given me thier time. In the above, it seemed you were saying it had to be
one way or the other. I like middle ground...I want it *all* LOL. If
Martha Stewart was a crunchy hippie churchgoer...that's me. :-)

Tia in Fl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/3/03 5:56:24 PM, Wilkinson6@... writes:

<< **Sorrow doesn't prepare people for sorrow.**


<<Sometimes it does. It, atleast, can take away the shock that bad

things can happen >>

I meant contrived sorrow or justified frustration doens't prepare people for
genuine sorrow.

My mother in law said once when both boys were toddlers and there was no
Holly "You have to frustrate them."

She didn't say "you might want to consider frustrating them."
She said "You HAVE to."

She meant to frustrate them purposefully and regularly, so they could learn
to deal with frustration.

I said "Life is frustrating enough."

I was nice enough not to say, "Well, we bring them to visit you!"

<g>

Sandra

pam sorooshian

On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 12:59 PM, Tia Graham wrote:

> But really, right now, I'm thinking I just must be a lesser woman than
> you. Because while I love being a mom and housewife, I hate doing the
> dishes.

I hate housework - I'm bored to tears, sometimes literally, over it.
I'm frustrated by it and I get cranky when I have to spend time doing
it.

My house shows the effects of my bad attitude.

To be honest - it isn't housecleaning I hate so much - I can "get" how
there is a certain amount of joy, even, in those clean sheets and shiny
sinks, but I just can't manage to take the time needed to be organized
enough that I ever get to experience that. Everything to do with
household maintenance is a huge chore for me - because I'm always
overwhelmed by it, I can't stand to face it so I put it off and it gets
worse and worse.

So - telling me that I should just not think of it as chores? Well - it
makes me laugh, at least <G>.

-pam

pam sorooshian

On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 04:01 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> My kids get all the sleep they need because they go to sleep when they
> want
> to and wake up with they wake up. I

My kids and I and my husband sometimes do not get the sleep we need
because we don't plan ahead. Sometimes I stay up way too late and have
to get up early. Sometimes I just can't sleep that well and feel sleepy
all day.

My 16 yo just told me, 10 minutes ago, "Mom, I'm not going to want to
watch that movie tonight because I won't be home until too late and I
want to get enough sleep tonight because I have really really long
rehearsals both Saturday and Sunday."

My kids handle their own sleep issues. Not perfectly. Neither do I. But
they have responsibility and they've given sleep a fair amount of
thought - sometimes they choose, just like I do, to stay awake and
squeeze every minute out of day.

At the Live and Learn Conference - some of us moms kept our kids up
until the wee hours of the morning because WE didn't want to waste
those precious minutes together. Poor kids - what examples we are,
huh? <BEG>

Relax Tia. Bedtimes schmedtimes. Instead of having bedtime, if you
think a kid needs sleep - just read in bed, cuddle, have warm baths,
etc., Don't say its past their bedtime, just help them get the sleep
they need.

-pam

pam sorooshian

Unschooling families are REALLY different Tia. Don't look at specific
aspects of how other families parent and then think things like: "Those
parents gave their kids everything, never made them do chores, and
didn't discipline them and look at how rotten those kids behave and I
don't want MY kids to turn out like that so....".

Those parents aren't unschooling or probably even homeschooling. It
isn't comparable.

It is like Jane Healy at the Sacramento Conference going on about how
bad TV is for children - then admitting she'd never even MET a
homeschooled kid, much less an unschooled kid, until two of them picked
her up from the airport and she spent what she called a delightful half
hour riding with them. She based her opinions on studies - none done on
homeschooled kids.

-pam


On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 04:40 PM, Tia Graham wrote:

> I'm sure there are. What I'm struggling with though, is that there are
> lots of people in the *world* who don't have kids like that. Sometimes
> it's obvious that it was the parenting that caused it and sometimes
> not.
> I"m not accusing unschoolers of turning out these kids...I'm asking for
> some reassurance that unschooling can help prevent that.

Robyn Coburn

From Webster dictionary online:



Main Entry: 1scheme
<javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?scheme01.wav=scheme')>
Pronunciation: 'skEm
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin schemat-, schema arrangement, figure, from Greek
schEmat-, schEma, from echein to have, hold, be in (such) a condition;
akin to Old English sige victory, Sanskrit sahate he prevails
Date: 1610
1 a archaic (1) : a mathematical or astronomical diagram (2) : a
representation of the astrological aspects of the planets at a
particular time b : a graphic sketch or outline
2 : a concise statement or table : EPITOME
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=epitome>
3 : a plan or program of action; especially : a crafty or secret one
4 : a systematic or organized framework : DESIGN
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=design>
synonym see PLAN
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=plan>









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

Well poop - the message I wrote about needing a new word instead of
scheme got removed as "non-text". Well there, that says it only with
brevity.

Robyn Coburn



From Webster dictionary online:

Main Entry: 1scheme
<javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?scheme01.wav=scheme')>
Pronunciation: 'skEm
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin schemat-, schema arrangement, figure, from Greek
schEmat-, schEma, from echein to have, hold, be in (such) a condition;
akin to Old English sige victory, Sanskrit sahate he prevails
Date: 1610
1 a archaic (1) : a mathematical or astronomical diagram (2) : a
representation of the astrological aspects of the planets at a
particular time b : a graphic sketch or outline
2 : a concise statement or table : EPITOME
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=epitome>
&va=epitome>
3 : a plan or program of action; especially : a crafty or secret one
4 : a systematic or organized framework : DESIGN
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=design>
&va=design>
synonym see PLAN
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=plan>
&va=plan>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/4/03 12:51:47 AM, dezigna@... writes:

<< 3 : a plan or program of action; especially : a crafty or secret one >>

Webster's is quite an American dictionary, though.

Can we get to British-useage stuff from google? How do we search brit sites?

I have an OED here. Can't believe how many columns of "scheme" and its
relatives, but here's an interesting thing:

schematomancy

(I'll put the definition below, but it's 19th century and maybe someone here
can guess vaguely at it by what it looks like.)

Scheme starts out all chart-and-diagrammish and then there is the definition
that covers both the benign English government schemes in the first half and
American bad-connation schemes, in the second half:

"A plan of action derived in order to attain some end; a purpose together
with a system of measures contrived for its accomplishment; a project;
enterprise. Often with unfavourable notion; a self-seeking or an underhand project; a
plot."

Just a few pages later is "school," and it occurred to me that that second
description fits the American school system of recent years:

"A purpose together with a system of measures contrived for its
accomplishment."

AHA!!! School IS a scheme!

And "schematomancy" means (meant, a time or two anyway):
A form of divination by which the personal history of a man is inferred from
his form and appearance.

Good word, "scheme."

Sandra

[email protected]

-=-For instance, my neighbor went to her middle school son's
locker last night and cleaned it out for him. She didn't want him to miss
any assignments. I said, "Why can't he clean out his own locker?" She
laughed-=-

-=-And I was thinking, "He'll never know how either if you don't let
him." -=-

Maybe he doens't know how because he's not seen it done, or he's just not
good at it, or he hates school and school books so much he can't stand to look at
them for one second he doesn't have to.

<<I was thinking that this kid missing an assignment or two just might be
the example he needs to live through in order to discover it's important
to keep up with things well.>>

This sounds vindictive. Traditionally punitive and anti-child. I bet you
don't mean to be, and you might not realize that it has that harsh edge my
granny's words had when she was in a spiteful mood. Or maybe I'm hearing my
granny's tone because she said things like that, about people she knew and didn't
know. "That'll learn 'em, durn 'em" she said many, many times.

<<Or maybe he doens't care at all
and they both need to face that. But her doing it for him, in order to
keep him from facing any sorrow (and ruining his afternoon fun) isn't
resulting in anything but a continuance of frustration on her part. She's
getting madder and he's getting messier. >>

Sounds like you're madder than she is, if she laughed, and she did it
voluntarily.

Maybe he doesn't care.
Maybe she DOES want him to have unruined afternoon fun and lack of sorrow.
School is sorrow enough.

<< And clean dishes to eat from are important to me. My family isn't
old enough to clean thier own, or I'd just wash my own and let them work
out for themselves what was important to them. >>

Would you want them to get old enough to just wash their own and never wash
yours or the rest of the family's? Generosity will gain more generosity than
measuring and scheduling and drawing lines can.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 10/3/03 8:11 PM, Tia Graham at sixredheads@... wrote:

> I know in the nitty gritty of my heart, I'm not okay with a life
> philosophy that centers on "if it's fun I'm here, and if it's not, I'm
> gone".

Don't think of what we're talking about as fun, then. Think of it as joy.

Even the most joyful life isn't all peaches and cream. Sometimes it rains
when we wanted it sunny. Sometimes a friend cancels out when we wanted to do
something together. Sometimes accomplishing something means working through
a period of frustration.

Life will naturally throw us lemons at us fairly regularly. But what we
don't need is to squirt life with artificial lemon juice to prepare us.

Most people divide the world into productive uses of time and unproductive
uses of time. Productive things are housework and going to work, home
repairs, shopping and so on. They are generally the things we don't want to
do. Unproductive uses are entertainment and fun. Then there's the gray area
that depends on how joyless someone's life is. Some people may feel that
creating only practical things is productive, like sewing curtains. Some may
feel that any creativity is productive, like sewing a quilted wall hanging.
How guilty you feel while doing something when there's a sinkful of dirty
dishes may be a helpful indicator of where you draw the line ;-)

I suspect you think we're suggesting you eliminate the productive stuff so
kids can spend all their time on the unproductive "fun" stuff, eliminate all
the frustrations in life so kids' lives are smooth sailing, eliminate the
work and hardship so that life is only fun.

But that isn't it at all.

What we're talking about is shifting your priorities and viewpoint so that
you approach life from a different angle. Getting there is sort of a
multistep step process.

You need to reassess what's necessary.

While people need to eat, we don't need to eat a home cooked mean every
night or even 3 square meals a day. There's a huge amount of flexibility
about how we eat but most of us have put up road blocks that make it seem
like we only have one or two choices.

If you see something as a necessity it will feel like there's an authority
behind you making you do it. If you give yourself permission to do only what
you want to do, then that eliminates the authority. You'll be in a better
position to see your family and wanting to cook a healthy meal for them
rather than subconsciously categorizing that as another one of those "have
tos".

You need to reassess gaols and priorities.

For instance I realized that my goal of saving money was interfering with my
goal of helping my daughter take more regular showers. She wanted the room
warm but my frugal nature didn't want to bring down the space heater from
the attic. And it seemed silly to buy kids shampoo when the adult shampoo
was already there. And it seemed wasteful to buy body wash when there's a
whole stack of free hotel soap that's been trickling into the house for
years.

I realized the first goal was setting up huge *artificial* road blocks in
the path to the second goal. What I was basically saying was that money was
more important than my daughter's comfort. But looking at it objectively, I
realized $10 (or whatever it took) to help showers be less painful was a
really small price to pay to eliminate the emotional price we were both
paying by not spending the money.

If you set a high priority on maintaining the division between fun and
necessity then that will interfer with a goal of having helpful kids. You
might be able to acheive the second, but you'll be setting up artificial
barriers that you'll need to work around. We can't help you work around the
barriers. But we can help you eliminate the barriers if you're willing to
change your viewpoint and your priorities.

And it really isn't as painful as it seems! It's just fear of the potential
consequences that makes it look painful.

Getting there and letting go of the anchors that hold you back can be
painful hard work, but once you're there being more joyful and having a more
joyful family is a *huge* payback.

(There's more steps involved but I never thought to write them all out. They
just kind of flow when I'm answering the "chores" question. ;-)

> I was checking my priority, and also trying to
> clarify where I stand for you all who don't know me well. I would imagine
> that for some people, in the world because I see them, that fun is
> absolutely thier god, the thing they'd do anything for. I'm saying, I
> have a personal line that I"m not willing to cross.

Most of us have been where you are, where life is divided into things we
have to do and things we want to do. And we've found that mindset doesn't
help lead to kids who want to help. That priority is a road block.

The point people are trying to make is that by shifting your view point and
rearranging your priorities you can reach the goals you have for your
children.

(You also have to eliminate those goals and accept that the goals will be a
side effect. If you're giving expecting people to give in return it will
very likely backfire. If you're giving because you find joy in it, others
very likely will pick up your joy and find value in your model. Generosity
will more likely generate generosity than subconsciously putting your giving
on a pan scale and expecting someone to eventually give enough to balance
out the scale.)

If you want to hold onto the priorities you have, we can't help you because
we've found those priorities need to be let go of to get what you say you
want.

What you're in essence saying is that you want to swim and you want to hold
onto the side. People here have tried swimming while holding onto the side
and we know that holding on interfers. We can help you let go to swim but we
can't help you hold on to swim.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 10/3/03 7:40 PM, Tia Graham at sixredheads@... wrote:

> This was a relieving point. Some misconception of how I am and how I
> *actually* parent (versus my thoughts which I've been posting about)
> seems to be coming into replies to me.

I think it helps not to see what people are suggesting as criticism of where
you are but as directions from where you are (or somewhere close to it) to
where you say you want to be. If what you're describing isn't where you
actually are, our directions might be a little off on your end, but the end
we're describing is very accurate.

What I'm saying is that accurately describing where you are isn't totally
important if you're understanding the destination we're describing. You can
ignore what we say that doesn't apply to you and focus on getting from where
you are to where you'd like to be/where we can help you get. (Hopefully
they're the same or we're all wasting words! ;-)

So it's more helpful to you to ask questions about where we're giving you
directions to rather than trying to pinpoint for us where you are. Only you
can truly understand what your motivations are when you ask if your son
would like to read, for instance. We can pick up clues in your writing that
suggests you might be having schoolish thoughts. But it isn't helpful to
convince us that you aren't having schoolish thoughts. It is helpful to you
in getting yourself to unschooling, though, to do some self reflection on
where you are and why you're there and where you'd like to be. (Doing some
self reflection on why people are getting the wrong idea is also helpful.
What about your words is giving people the idea that you have schoolish
thoughts? Self-reflection not to help us understand you better, but
self-reflection to help yourself understand yourself better.)

The hard part about unschooling is that no one can help anyone get from
where they are to unschooling. You have to do all the work yourself. We can
suggest things that might be getting in your way. We can suggest ways to get
around them. The only thing we can describe accurately is where you'll end
up, and even that is in the vague terms of joy and freedom.

Joyce

crystal.pina

"That'll learn 'em, durn 'em" she said many, many times.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is so mean. I saw this happen just yesterday. We were at our monthly homeschool meeting. One of the mothers has two daughters. They each made bagels to bring to the meeting for their breakfast because it was early. One of the daughters forgot her bagel on the counter so she came to the meeting without any breakfast. She asked her mother for some of hers. The mother told her no! and that would "teach" her to remember her stuff. Later, on the ride home my daughter told me she doesn't like those two girls because they're mean. One of the girls asked a question which my daughter knew the answer to so she told her. The girl looked at her and said "I wasn't talking to you". Well, where do you think she learned that attitude?

Crystal



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

Hi again Tia

My kids surprise me in this area. I haven't ever fretted much about
the academics, but the chores? the bedtimes? that has been a bit more
difficult for me to let go.

One example I gave recently, where I invited Robby (my non-helper
boy) to come and visit while we did the dishes. He put down his book
and we spent 20 minutes talking about The Hulk and Rockman.

Here's another. We watch a lot of videos, and the TV is downstairs. I
venture down there for laundry, and about twice a week, for a video
my own self. In the past, I've fussed and fumed and scolded and made
them "get all these videos back in their cases!"...whereupon they
would fly around the room getting things in order...a few weeks ago,
I went down to watch a movie w/the kids, and Robby put in the video,
then looked around him and said "Geez, I better get some of these
movies put away." and DID SO.

Did I faint? just about! LOL point being, he is capable of seeing
when things need to be done, and doing so, without my nagging. I have
mentioned the reason why I like the videos replaced as soon as we are
done watching (to avoid smashing the cardboard covers and if they're
rented, to keep the tapes safe.)...

It's modelling, I'm telling you. Cheerfully and willingly doing what
needs doing, making yourself an attractive person to be with, so the
help will come because they want to be with you.


> I don't divide these parts of life...I"m talking about
situations/needs
> that come up that they don't want to do.

Tia Leschke

>
>I don't expect this mature attitude from my young kids. But is any part
>of parenting "you get out what you put in"? I want to raise children who
>become responsible adults, joyful and playful, imaginative, helpful to
>others, who don't abandon responsibilities just because thier interest
>wanes. Shouldn't I live in a way that prepares and expects that? I'm not
>talking about at the expense of the relationship, or in a way that
>communicates disappointment or pressure. But living it, telling them why
>I live it, giving them chances to try it?


Giving them chances to try it is different from saying, "I know you don't
like this but it has to get done."

If you stick around for a while and read about some of the kids on this
list, you'll find that the ways people are talking about *are* producing
kids like that.


>I've really seen alot of examples of adults who only do what they feel
>like...from leaving toddlers alone for 3 weeks (in the news here in my
>neighborhood!), to not being able to feed a work crew on Saturday because
>no one wants to volunteer a casserole, to gosh...the neighbors who public
>school "to get away from thier kids for a few hours". I'd so much prefer
>not to raise that kind of child.


I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those adults were raised having
to do chores and other things they preferred not to do. Nobody gave them
the option of not doing them as they were growing up. Once they were "in
charge" they decided not to. I figure it's better to have them deciding
that when they're younger and it doesn't matter much.
Tia in Canada