Math again (good news)
Julie Bogart
Yesterday, my 9 yos had a friend over for the day. He lives a bit
far away and I had to pick him up somewhat early in the morning.
Since I know that this family is "school at home" in style, I offered
to "do" some of the child's schoolwork with him at our house so
that she'd feel comfortable letting him come for the day midweek
like that.
She gave me one sheet of math word problems. :) She knew that
play was much higher on the list for these boys than lots of
books. I was grateful.
But we did sit down after lunch to tackle those word problems.
Here's where it got interesting. This little boy (8 yo) began
working these problems (triple digit subtraction that required
borrowing) without much need for help. My son (who had already
declared that he wasn't going to stop his day for "school") joined
us at the table and looked at the math sheet. Then he got
interested. I pulled out a piece of paper and told him he was free
to do the same problems if he wanted to.
So he wrote down the first problem... wrote three of the numbers
backwards, he put a line between the two numbers being
subtracted (instead of one line under them both) and never did
any borrowing...
and got the right answer.
He did the next two problems almost entirely in his head (one of
them involved subtracting the same number 7 times (what an
idiotic problem! Can you imagine a page of problems like that?
Isn't that what a calculator or the power of division is for?).
The funny thing was that at one point, the other little boy finished
a problem really quickly while I was momentarily out of the room.
My son came dejectedly to me saying he wasn't getting it. I
followed them back to the papers and as it turned out, the first
boy didn't understand the problem... had not finished it at all. In
the meantime, my son had gotten most of the way through it and
mostly correctly. He didn't know there would be anything left over
at the end. That was it!
My son used all kinds of strategies for subtracting I had never
taught him:
110-34=?
Well, mom, first you take 30 from 100 and get 70. Then you add
10 and get 80 then subtract 4 and get 76.
Huh?
I've not done math with this kid. But he gets it. :) In fact, it's me
who doesn't really have a clue what we're doing. I had to check
his sound answer with paper and borrowing because I didn't
understand what he did.
Julie B
far away and I had to pick him up somewhat early in the morning.
Since I know that this family is "school at home" in style, I offered
to "do" some of the child's schoolwork with him at our house so
that she'd feel comfortable letting him come for the day midweek
like that.
She gave me one sheet of math word problems. :) She knew that
play was much higher on the list for these boys than lots of
books. I was grateful.
But we did sit down after lunch to tackle those word problems.
Here's where it got interesting. This little boy (8 yo) began
working these problems (triple digit subtraction that required
borrowing) without much need for help. My son (who had already
declared that he wasn't going to stop his day for "school") joined
us at the table and looked at the math sheet. Then he got
interested. I pulled out a piece of paper and told him he was free
to do the same problems if he wanted to.
So he wrote down the first problem... wrote three of the numbers
backwards, he put a line between the two numbers being
subtracted (instead of one line under them both) and never did
any borrowing...
and got the right answer.
He did the next two problems almost entirely in his head (one of
them involved subtracting the same number 7 times (what an
idiotic problem! Can you imagine a page of problems like that?
Isn't that what a calculator or the power of division is for?).
The funny thing was that at one point, the other little boy finished
a problem really quickly while I was momentarily out of the room.
My son came dejectedly to me saying he wasn't getting it. I
followed them back to the papers and as it turned out, the first
boy didn't understand the problem... had not finished it at all. In
the meantime, my son had gotten most of the way through it and
mostly correctly. He didn't know there would be anything left over
at the end. That was it!
My son used all kinds of strategies for subtracting I had never
taught him:
110-34=?
Well, mom, first you take 30 from 100 and get 70. Then you add
10 and get 80 then subtract 4 and get 76.
Huh?
I've not done math with this kid. But he gets it. :) In fact, it's me
who doesn't really have a clue what we're doing. I had to check
his sound answer with paper and borrowing because I didn't
understand what he did.
Julie B
Heidi
Julie, this is SO COOL! I love hearing stories like this, because of
the encouragement that THEY WILL "GET IT" and because...there's
similar stuff going on around here.
In fact, a human interest story on the news the other day, was about
a man who paid over $100 in parking tickets, using pennies. My mom,
the public school teacher, said "How many pennies is that, Robby?"
and he looked up for a half second and said "Ten thousand" heh heh
without anyone teaching it to him.
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
the encouragement that THEY WILL "GET IT" and because...there's
similar stuff going on around here.
In fact, a human interest story on the news the other day, was about
a man who paid over $100 in parking tickets, using pennies. My mom,
the public school teacher, said "How many pennies is that, Robby?"
and he looked up for a half second and said "Ten thousand" heh heh
without anyone teaching it to him.
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
> Yesterday, my 9 yos had a friend over for the day. He lives a bitoffered
> far away and I had to pick him up somewhat early in the morning.
> Since I know that this family is "school at home" in style, I
> to "do" some of the child's schoolwork with him at our house so
> that she'd feel comfortable letting him come for the day midweek
> like that.
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/03 5:53:33 AM, julie@... writes:
<< I've not done math with this kid. But he gets it. :) >>
I feel like a crow, or like a pack-rat, but if it helps other unschoolers as
I expect it will, I don't feel too bad about having snagged your sparkly
writing for the still-sparse math page I'm collecting slowly for, Julie:
http://sandradodd.com/math
And if anyone here is still iffy about the math thing, to there and read
Linda Wyatt's confident rant!
Sandra
<< I've not done math with this kid. But he gets it. :) >>
I feel like a crow, or like a pack-rat, but if it helps other unschoolers as
I expect it will, I don't feel too bad about having snagged your sparkly
writing for the still-sparse math page I'm collecting slowly for, Julie:
http://sandradodd.com/math
And if anyone here is still iffy about the math thing, to there and read
Linda Wyatt's confident rant!
Sandra
Kelly Lenhart
>My son used all kinds of strategies for subtracting I had neverThis is actually what they are "teaching" these days-- regrouping in your
>taught him:
>110-34=?
>Well, mom, first you take 30 from 100 and get 70. Then you add
>10 and get 80 then subtract 4 and get 76.
>Huh?
head as a way of getting close, then figuring the end.
My mom the kindergarten said it's a "good sign" when my 7 year old did
t. -grin-
Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/03 9:42:01 AM, mina@... writes:
<< This is actually what they are "teaching" these days-- regrouping in your
head as a way of getting close, then figuring the end. >>
Well by "teaching" you mean "presenting."
I bet they can get kids to shut down about that too if they push and test and
shame and push and review and shame as has been going on for so many years
with math.
<<My mom the kindergarten said it's a "good sign" when my 7 year old did
t. -grin->>
Yeah! Good sign for the schools! <bwg>
Sandra
<< This is actually what they are "teaching" these days-- regrouping in your
head as a way of getting close, then figuring the end. >>
Well by "teaching" you mean "presenting."
I bet they can get kids to shut down about that too if they push and test and
shame and push and review and shame as has been going on for so many years
with math.
<<My mom the kindergarten said it's a "good sign" when my 7 year old did
t. -grin->>
Yeah! Good sign for the schools! <bwg>
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
<<My mom, the public school teacher, said "How many pennies is that,
Robby?" and he looked up for a half second and said "Ten thousand" heh
heh without anyone teaching it to him.>>
I can't help feeling that in a similar situation I would be discouraging
my mother from feeling she had the right to be testing Jayn. I also
notice that Jayn tends to just look at the rare people who ask her
questions dishonestly, and I sometimes don't know whether she knows the
answer or not. Often it is something I know she does understand. I
usually say immediately, "Jayn won't be a performing a monkey".
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robby?" and he looked up for a half second and said "Ten thousand" heh
heh without anyone teaching it to him.>>
I can't help feeling that in a similar situation I would be discouraging
my mother from feeling she had the right to be testing Jayn. I also
notice that Jayn tends to just look at the rare people who ask her
questions dishonestly, and I sometimes don't know whether she knows the
answer or not. Often it is something I know she does understand. I
usually say immediately, "Jayn won't be a performing a monkey".
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
sure, but have a lifetime of weenie-ness to overcome. Actually, we're
going through it something fierce right now, from everyone, about
Abbie's high school. She is sophomore age, and I have people telling
me she HAS to learn algebra, and what about chemistry, and how will
she get into any college, and so forth, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
We roll our eyeballs and say "if she wants to go to college, she'll
find out what the actual requirements ARE, and she'll find an algebra
class to take. If she discovers some latent passion for a major that
has chemistry as a requirement, I imagine she'll scope out a way to
get chemistry learned."
The ironic thing is, when my mom first started teaching, her angle
was much more "natural learning" than it is now, after 20 years in
the system. I remember a discussion about helping kids find their
passion, not forcing them to swallow factoids to spit back out onto a
test paper. Becuase "There is so much information in the world. How
can you choose what is to be learned? Why not teach them how to
think, and let them learn what they want?" (Btw, I was on the other
side of the fence at this time, hooked on phonics, wishing the
schools would concentrate on the basics, do more drill, memorize
history dates...barf)
*sigh* Teach them how to think. Right. In between bells, I suppose.
anyway...thanks for the heads up, Robyn. I'm getting there.
blessings, HeidiC
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> <<My mom, the public school teacher, said "How many pennies is that,heh
> Robby?" and he looked up for a half second and said "Ten thousand"
> heh without anyone teaching it to him.>>discouraging
>
>
>
> I can't help feeling that in a similar situation I would be
> my mother from feeling she had the right to be testing Jayn. I alsothe
> notice that Jayn tends to just look at the rare people who ask her
> questions dishonestly, and I sometimes don't know whether she knows
> answer or not. Often it is something I know she does understand. II KNOW IT. It's frustrating to me, too. I'm getting there, slow but
> usually say immediately, "Jayn won't be a performing a monkey".
>
> Robyn Coburn
sure, but have a lifetime of weenie-ness to overcome. Actually, we're
going through it something fierce right now, from everyone, about
Abbie's high school. She is sophomore age, and I have people telling
me she HAS to learn algebra, and what about chemistry, and how will
she get into any college, and so forth, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
We roll our eyeballs and say "if she wants to go to college, she'll
find out what the actual requirements ARE, and she'll find an algebra
class to take. If she discovers some latent passion for a major that
has chemistry as a requirement, I imagine she'll scope out a way to
get chemistry learned."
The ironic thing is, when my mom first started teaching, her angle
was much more "natural learning" than it is now, after 20 years in
the system. I remember a discussion about helping kids find their
passion, not forcing them to swallow factoids to spit back out onto a
test paper. Becuase "There is so much information in the world. How
can you choose what is to be learned? Why not teach them how to
think, and let them learn what they want?" (Btw, I was on the other
side of the fence at this time, hooked on phonics, wishing the
schools would concentrate on the basics, do more drill, memorize
history dates...barf)
*sigh* Teach them how to think. Right. In between bells, I suppose.
anyway...thanks for the heads up, Robyn. I'm getting there.
blessings, HeidiC
Michelle S
That's how I do math in my head if I don't have a calculator handy.
Much simpler than borrowing, carrying and the like (for my brain,
anyway!).
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: Julie Bogart [mailto:julie@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 4:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Math again (good news)
<<My son used all kinds of strategies for subtracting I had never
taught him:
110-34=?
Well, mom, first you take 30 from 100 and get 70. Then you add
10 and get 80 then subtract 4 and get 76. >>
Much simpler than borrowing, carrying and the like (for my brain,
anyway!).
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: Julie Bogart [mailto:julie@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 4:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Math again (good news)
<<My son used all kinds of strategies for subtracting I had never
taught him:
110-34=?
Well, mom, first you take 30 from 100 and get 70. Then you add
10 and get 80 then subtract 4 and get 76. >>
Heidi
Oh my!
Do you realize just WHO those math questions, in the article you
linked here, came from? LOL I'm laughing REALLY HARD at myself, here.
wow. What a different person I am today, than I was in January, when
I was asking those questions. I was getting ready to pass this link
on to my mom, who is pressuring us (esp. my 15 year old) to get her
into algebra NOW, so she can get into college. Thinking "Okay, this
would answer a lot of her questions"...and then came to the one about
algebra. From there on, it's ME!
I still might do it. "Here, mom. This is our philosophy, these are
the questions I was asking at the turn of the year, and the answers."
The "flavor" of this list was too "spicy" for me at that time, so I
unsubbed for a little while, but didn't go back to "making" my kids
do academics. Just watched. It was during that time that Katie, age
8, took her math workbook into a little tent she had made for
herself. She wanted to work some problems. I was folding laundry, and
she called me to come help her with something. "Just a sec." I was in
the middle of a bed sheet.
"Never mind," came her soon reply. When I did get in there, two
minutes later, she said "Mom, is this right? 6 minus 4 equals 2,
right?" "yep."
and she explained to me, how she did it. "I knew it! because, 4 plus
2 equals 6, and I just reversed it."
This is when I was convinced that I never need "make" my kids "do
math" EVER again. Now, with all this external pressure about algebra
and my teenaged daughter, I'm more than tempted to send that article
my mom's way. Explain to her the changes in my own philosophy, and
why. *gulp*
take the plunge? admit, we're following a natural learning path, not
an artificial construct of the system? to an apostle of the system?
*gulp* help me! I'm a weeenie!
blessings, HeidiC (less of a weenie than 9 months ago)
Do you realize just WHO those math questions, in the article you
linked here, came from? LOL I'm laughing REALLY HARD at myself, here.
wow. What a different person I am today, than I was in January, when
I was asking those questions. I was getting ready to pass this link
on to my mom, who is pressuring us (esp. my 15 year old) to get her
into algebra NOW, so she can get into college. Thinking "Okay, this
would answer a lot of her questions"...and then came to the one about
algebra. From there on, it's ME!
I still might do it. "Here, mom. This is our philosophy, these are
the questions I was asking at the turn of the year, and the answers."
The "flavor" of this list was too "spicy" for me at that time, so I
unsubbed for a little while, but didn't go back to "making" my kids
do academics. Just watched. It was during that time that Katie, age
8, took her math workbook into a little tent she had made for
herself. She wanted to work some problems. I was folding laundry, and
she called me to come help her with something. "Just a sec." I was in
the middle of a bed sheet.
"Never mind," came her soon reply. When I did get in there, two
minutes later, she said "Mom, is this right? 6 minus 4 equals 2,
right?" "yep."
and she explained to me, how she did it. "I knew it! because, 4 plus
2 equals 6, and I just reversed it."
This is when I was convinced that I never need "make" my kids "do
math" EVER again. Now, with all this external pressure about algebra
and my teenaged daughter, I'm more than tempted to send that article
my mom's way. Explain to her the changes in my own philosophy, and
why. *gulp*
take the plunge? admit, we're following a natural learning path, not
an artificial construct of the system? to an apostle of the system?
*gulp* help me! I'm a weeenie!
blessings, HeidiC (less of a weenie than 9 months ago)
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/2/03 5:53:33 AM, julie@b... writes:
>
> << I've not done math with this kid. But he gets it. :) >>
>
> I feel like a crow, or like a pack-rat, but if it helps other
unschoolers as
> I expect it will, I don't feel too bad about having snagged your
sparkly
> writing for the still-sparse math page I'm collecting slowly for,
Julie:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/math
>
> And if anyone here is still iffy about the math thing, to there and
read
> Linda Wyatt's confident rant!
>
> Sandra
nellebelle
>>>>>>We roll our eyeballs and say "if she wants to go to college, she'llfind out what the actual requirements ARE, and she'll find an algebra
class to take. If she discovers some latent passion for a major that
has chemistry as a requirement, I imagine she'll scope out a way to
get chemistry learned.">>>>>>>
I went to college right after high school because my mom had decided I would. It wasn't that I didn't want to go, it was simply a matter of believing, after years of hearing it, that I would go to college. I did great in the classes that I didn't drop, and I dropped a bunch because they did not interest me. I did NOT go back in the fall, because I started doing something else that summer and it was of much more interest to me. I did go back to college many years later. Although parts of it were drudgery and obvious "jumping through hoops" to get the degree, overall the experience was great because *I* had a reason to be there. A goal of my own. It makes all the difference in the world.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]