Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Enlightened Self Interest
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
I've just gotta point something out just a second... something that raised
a bristling feeling...
A list-mate was defining 'Enlightened Self Interest' where a person does
something nice for someone else because they believe doing such means that
something nice will happen to themselves.
I think this is an awful trap that a lot of society today falls into. The
21st century version of the La Brea Tar Pits. It's the old, What's in it
for me mindset. Somehow, it seems so... cheap?
I know I had a hard time letting go of that mindset, and was only really
happy/successful/peaceful/etc (in unschooling, in relationships and as a
person) when I STOPPED doing things because I thought that the other person
(or life) would do something nice for me because I was nice to them/it, etc.
Isn't it better if we do something nice for another person/the world simply
because we WANT to do something nice?
Should we need, want or expect a 'reward'? Somehow, I feel that the
expectation of a 'reward' for being generous with oneself and ones time is
what kills relationships, friendships and whittles away at each of us,
lessens us somehow. I won't help you until I know that you'll help
me? How sad. How immature?
...and has anyone ever read 'Punished by Rewards'? Is it worth reading in
whole, or will a synopsis do as well? I haven't read it yet and would love
an opinion.
HeidiWD
a bristling feeling...
A list-mate was defining 'Enlightened Self Interest' where a person does
something nice for someone else because they believe doing such means that
something nice will happen to themselves.
I think this is an awful trap that a lot of society today falls into. The
21st century version of the La Brea Tar Pits. It's the old, What's in it
for me mindset. Somehow, it seems so... cheap?
I know I had a hard time letting go of that mindset, and was only really
happy/successful/peaceful/etc (in unschooling, in relationships and as a
person) when I STOPPED doing things because I thought that the other person
(or life) would do something nice for me because I was nice to them/it, etc.
Isn't it better if we do something nice for another person/the world simply
because we WANT to do something nice?
Should we need, want or expect a 'reward'? Somehow, I feel that the
expectation of a 'reward' for being generous with oneself and ones time is
what kills relationships, friendships and whittles away at each of us,
lessens us somehow. I won't help you until I know that you'll help
me? How sad. How immature?
...and has anyone ever read 'Punished by Rewards'? Is it worth reading in
whole, or will a synopsis do as well? I haven't read it yet and would love
an opinion.
HeidiWD
[email protected]
Hi - the Ayn Rand version of enlightened self-interest was mentioned
by me, but I think I must not have done it justice if it came across as limited
to some sort of crass reward-seeking. To the contrary, I think her philosophy
meant to say the opposite, that the really crass people are those who claim
we "owe" others what we have just because we have it. Rand's writings say that
when we give of ourselves because we choose to rather than because we are
blackmailed or shamed into it or otherwise forced, then it is good for both giver
and receiver.
The enlightenment is in understanding and accepting that it's better
for the giver to get something satisfying out of the experience than to be
extorted, and that it doesn't make the giver crass just because he refuses to make
himself miserable for someone else. (But I read Rand at least a couple of
decades ago, sorry if I still am not doing her philosophy justice.)
As to "Punished by Rewards" it's a great unschooling book imo. For
someone who enjoys the kind of discussion on this list, I would think the whole
book rather than a synopsis would be better, so you'll get all his research and
reasoning. And just my opinion, all of Alfie Kohn's work (that I know of) is
very compatible with unschooling -- ours, anyway. :) JJ
heidi@... writes:
by me, but I think I must not have done it justice if it came across as limited
to some sort of crass reward-seeking. To the contrary, I think her philosophy
meant to say the opposite, that the really crass people are those who claim
we "owe" others what we have just because we have it. Rand's writings say that
when we give of ourselves because we choose to rather than because we are
blackmailed or shamed into it or otherwise forced, then it is good for both giver
and receiver.
The enlightenment is in understanding and accepting that it's better
for the giver to get something satisfying out of the experience than to be
extorted, and that it doesn't make the giver crass just because he refuses to make
himself miserable for someone else. (But I read Rand at least a couple of
decades ago, sorry if I still am not doing her philosophy justice.)
As to "Punished by Rewards" it's a great unschooling book imo. For
someone who enjoys the kind of discussion on this list, I would think the whole
book rather than a synopsis would be better, so you'll get all his research and
reasoning. And just my opinion, all of Alfie Kohn's work (that I know of) is
very compatible with unschooling -- ours, anyway. :) JJ
heidi@... writes:
> I've just gotta point something out just a second... something that raised[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> a bristling feeling...
>
> A list-mate was defining 'Enlightened Self Interest' where a person does
> something nice for someone else because they believe doing such means that
> something nice will happen to themselves.
>
> I think this is an awful trap that a lot of society today falls into. The
> 21st century version of the La Brea Tar Pits. It's the old, What's in it
> for me mindset. Somehow, it seems so... cheap?
>
> I know I had a hard time letting go of that mindset, and was only really
> happy/successful/peaceful/etc (in unschooling, in relationships and as a
> person) when I STOPPED doing things because I thought that the other person
> (or life) would do something nice for me because I was nice to them/it, etc.
>
> Isn't it better if we do something nice for another person/the world simply
> because we WANT to do something nice?
>
> Should we need, want or expect a 'reward'? Somehow, I feel that the
> expectation of a 'reward' for being generous with oneself and ones time is
> what kills relationships, friendships and whittles away at each of us,
> lessens us somehow. I won't help you until I know that you'll help
> me? How sad. How immature?
>
> ...and has anyone ever read 'Punished by Rewards'? Is it worth reading in
> whole, or will a synopsis do as well? I haven't read it yet and would love
> an opinion.
> HeidiWD
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/24/03 8:16:38 PM, heidi@... writes:
<< A list-mate was defining 'Enlightened Self Interest' where a person does
something nice for someone else because they believe doing such means that
something nice will happen to themselves. >>
She was citing Ayn Rand, though, who was not a touchy-feely human.
<<Isn't it better if we do something nice for another person/the world simply
because we WANT to do something nice?>>
I think so, but then I care more about the person who's doing the deed than
the person done for, in most cases involving my children. If Kirby is nice to
Holly, I get a double bonus. If Kirby is nice to someone I don't even know
and will never see again, it makes Kirby a better person, and I'm glad for
that. And when I see Kirby be kind to a stranger, or a customer, or a student at
the dojo, or a friend of his, I have a warm feeling about Kirby.
So it helps the person who is good, because his own self-image is better when
he's done what he considers "worthy" instead of acting in a less-than-best
way. And it helps the person's reputation for others to see him act in ways
they consider commendable. They might speak well of him to others; that's
helpful for reputation and the benefits spread all directions.
On top of all that, he made the person's day brighter, the one he was kind to
in the first place.
<< Somehow, I feel that the
expectation of a 'reward' for being generous with oneself and ones time is
what kills relationships, friendships and whittles away at each of us,
lessens us somehow. I won't help you until I know that you'll help
me? >>
Selfless acts are wonderful.
Most of the cool things Kirby has done, I'll never know about. But to some
degree he knows. Some he's really used to and doesn't much notice anymore.
He's exceptionally kind to clerks and waitresses. He's patient with little kids
asking for help (if they're not Holly, and sometimes Holly).
I have a friend who always takes a cart in when he goes to the grocery store
or WalMart. Not a cart for him to use, necessarily, but just picks one up
from the parking lot and returns it. He's not announcing it. He's not counting.
He feels better when he does it than when he doesn't.
Lots of people and their kids have seen Cast Away, with Tom Hanks on the
island alone. We know he wasn't REALLY alone on an island, but considering the
possibility that a person would be... What are the benefits of being "good"
when one is all alone, and what would "good" look like?"
When a child is left alone in the house for a few hours, what would
"goodness" look like?
When I'm home all alone sometimes I take a nap or read the whole time.
Sometimes not. It's worth thinking about, though.
Sandra
<< A list-mate was defining 'Enlightened Self Interest' where a person does
something nice for someone else because they believe doing such means that
something nice will happen to themselves. >>
She was citing Ayn Rand, though, who was not a touchy-feely human.
<<Isn't it better if we do something nice for another person/the world simply
because we WANT to do something nice?>>
I think so, but then I care more about the person who's doing the deed than
the person done for, in most cases involving my children. If Kirby is nice to
Holly, I get a double bonus. If Kirby is nice to someone I don't even know
and will never see again, it makes Kirby a better person, and I'm glad for
that. And when I see Kirby be kind to a stranger, or a customer, or a student at
the dojo, or a friend of his, I have a warm feeling about Kirby.
So it helps the person who is good, because his own self-image is better when
he's done what he considers "worthy" instead of acting in a less-than-best
way. And it helps the person's reputation for others to see him act in ways
they consider commendable. They might speak well of him to others; that's
helpful for reputation and the benefits spread all directions.
On top of all that, he made the person's day brighter, the one he was kind to
in the first place.
<< Somehow, I feel that the
expectation of a 'reward' for being generous with oneself and ones time is
what kills relationships, friendships and whittles away at each of us,
lessens us somehow. I won't help you until I know that you'll help
me? >>
Selfless acts are wonderful.
Most of the cool things Kirby has done, I'll never know about. But to some
degree he knows. Some he's really used to and doesn't much notice anymore.
He's exceptionally kind to clerks and waitresses. He's patient with little kids
asking for help (if they're not Holly, and sometimes Holly).
I have a friend who always takes a cart in when he goes to the grocery store
or WalMart. Not a cart for him to use, necessarily, but just picks one up
from the parking lot and returns it. He's not announcing it. He's not counting.
He feels better when he does it than when he doesn't.
Lots of people and their kids have seen Cast Away, with Tom Hanks on the
island alone. We know he wasn't REALLY alone on an island, but considering the
possibility that a person would be... What are the benefits of being "good"
when one is all alone, and what would "good" look like?"
When a child is left alone in the house for a few hours, what would
"goodness" look like?
When I'm home all alone sometimes I take a nap or read the whole time.
Sometimes not. It's worth thinking about, though.
Sandra
Deborah Lewis
***A list-mate was defining 'Enlightened Self Interest' where a person
does
something nice for someone else because they believe doing such means
that
something nice will happen to themselves.***
I posted about the immediate benefits of being kind versus unkind.
Someone else brought up Ayn Rand's thoughts on enlightened self interest.
I was responding to the poster who asked - paraphrasing- if there is no
greater purpose why be kind at all?
I wasn't recommending people be kind for some sneaky personal gain. I
was making an observation. Kindness benefits us right now in our lives
here on planet Earth.
The other idea, I guess, is that good people get rewarded in the
afterlife.
***Isn't it better if we do something nice for another person/the world
simply
because we WANT to do something nice?***
Sure. But we don't always want to do nice things when the other person
needs it. I didn't want to split and stack a cord of wood for my mom
Sunday night after a long camping weekend. I wanted to take a shower and
wash the dog and go to bed.
But I did it because I have a pretty nice mom, who's eighty one and who
couldn't have done it herself. I did it because she was worried someone
would steal it before it was stacked beside her back door. I did it
because I can think of a million nice things she's done for me.
I could have waited and done it today but that would have meant more
worry for her. Maybe she would have tried to move those big pieces of
larch herself with the wheelbarrow. Maybe she would have fallen or just
been upset that no one was there to help her.
I didn't want to take care of my pop when he was dying but he took care
of me for sixteen years and it seemed the least I could do.
It wouldn't have been better for my mom to wait and worry about her wood.
I wouldn't have been better for my pop if I only came around when I felt
like I really wanted to.
I stretch some because I am pretty sure I'm going to need some niceness
sometime and I do hope it'll be there. I don't think that's much
different than someone else striving to be good in order to make it into
to the kingdom of Heaven, or trying to live an ethical life so they can
stand to look at themselves in the mirror, or modeling goodness to their
kids so their kids will know how to be good people.
Deb L
does
something nice for someone else because they believe doing such means
that
something nice will happen to themselves.***
I posted about the immediate benefits of being kind versus unkind.
Someone else brought up Ayn Rand's thoughts on enlightened self interest.
I was responding to the poster who asked - paraphrasing- if there is no
greater purpose why be kind at all?
I wasn't recommending people be kind for some sneaky personal gain. I
was making an observation. Kindness benefits us right now in our lives
here on planet Earth.
The other idea, I guess, is that good people get rewarded in the
afterlife.
***Isn't it better if we do something nice for another person/the world
simply
because we WANT to do something nice?***
Sure. But we don't always want to do nice things when the other person
needs it. I didn't want to split and stack a cord of wood for my mom
Sunday night after a long camping weekend. I wanted to take a shower and
wash the dog and go to bed.
But I did it because I have a pretty nice mom, who's eighty one and who
couldn't have done it herself. I did it because she was worried someone
would steal it before it was stacked beside her back door. I did it
because I can think of a million nice things she's done for me.
I could have waited and done it today but that would have meant more
worry for her. Maybe she would have tried to move those big pieces of
larch herself with the wheelbarrow. Maybe she would have fallen or just
been upset that no one was there to help her.
I didn't want to take care of my pop when he was dying but he took care
of me for sixteen years and it seemed the least I could do.
It wouldn't have been better for my mom to wait and worry about her wood.
I wouldn't have been better for my pop if I only came around when I felt
like I really wanted to.
I stretch some because I am pretty sure I'm going to need some niceness
sometime and I do hope it'll be there. I don't think that's much
different than someone else striving to be good in order to make it into
to the kingdom of Heaven, or trying to live an ethical life so they can
stand to look at themselves in the mirror, or modeling goodness to their
kids so their kids will know how to be good people.
Deb L
Deborah Lewis
***When a child is left alone in the house for a few hours, what would
"goodness" look like?***
Dylan, reading over my shoulder, says, "A big sandwich, a Mountain Dew
and a Godzilla movie."
Now you know. <g>
Deb L
"goodness" look like?***
Dylan, reading over my shoulder, says, "A big sandwich, a Mountain Dew
and a Godzilla movie."
Now you know. <g>
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/24/03 9:00:46 PM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< and that it doesn't make the giver crass just because he refuses to make
himself miserable for someone else. >>
She didn't believe in charity or generosity.
<<To the contrary, I think her philosophy
meant to say the opposite, that the really crass people are those who claim
we "owe" others what we have just because we have it. >>
Yes. It was anti-communist and anti-Christian kind of philosophy about the
individual and capitalism, expressed though novels mostly, but there were
subscriptions to recordings (on 33 rpm records, a friend's dad used to get them) of
further musings.
Anthem (the only short one with very few characters, so the easiest read)
Atlas Shrugged
The Fountainhead
They're not books that make unschooling any easier, though, nor much else
easier, though it does soothe the conscience of rich people who don't want to
share any of their resources or land or time.
Sandra
<< and that it doesn't make the giver crass just because he refuses to make
himself miserable for someone else. >>
She didn't believe in charity or generosity.
<<To the contrary, I think her philosophy
meant to say the opposite, that the really crass people are those who claim
we "owe" others what we have just because we have it. >>
Yes. It was anti-communist and anti-Christian kind of philosophy about the
individual and capitalism, expressed though novels mostly, but there were
subscriptions to recordings (on 33 rpm records, a friend's dad used to get them) of
further musings.
Anthem (the only short one with very few characters, so the easiest read)
Atlas Shrugged
The Fountainhead
They're not books that make unschooling any easier, though, nor much else
easier, though it does soothe the conscience of rich people who don't want to
share any of their resources or land or time.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
Punished by Rewards is absolutely worth reading. More than once. One of
those books that will change the way you see things!
-pam
On Wednesday, September 24, 2003, at 07:14 PM, Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
wrote:
those books that will change the way you see things!
-pam
On Wednesday, September 24, 2003, at 07:14 PM, Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
wrote:
> ...and has anyone ever read 'Punished by Rewards'? Is it worth
> reading in
> whole, or will a synopsis do as well? I haven't read it yet and would
> love
> an opinion.
catherine aceto
I agree. It certainly changed forever the way that I see things.
-cat
-cat
----- Original Message -----
From: pam sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 4:09 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Enlightened Self Interest
Punished by Rewards is absolutely worth reading. More than once. One of
those books that will change the way you see things!
-pam
On Wednesday, September 24, 2003, at 07:14 PM, Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
wrote:
> ...and has anyone ever read 'Punished by Rewards'? Is it worth
> reading in
> whole, or will a synopsis do as well? I haven't read it yet and would
> love
> an opinion.
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heidi@... writes:
doing nice things for people, it's kinda selfish in that way. But if I won't
feel good afterwards, if I'll resent people later, I don't offer, or I say
no. I'd agree with you that the expectation of anything in return can cause
resentment and rifts in relationships.
It's like lending money. If someone needs some cash and I have it and don't
need it, it's theirs, but I never expect it back. If they pay me back because
they want to, fine. But I don't lend, I give. Same thing, in my mind. If I
don't have it to spare, I say no, no guilt.
I don't expect anything in return for a favor. But I also am no longer
friends with people who take and take and never give, either.
Now, Karma IS in the back of my mind, however, and I do believe that what you
put out, you get back. So I'm either neutral or positive as much as
possible. Self interest, there, definitely.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Should we need, want or expect a 'reward'? Somehow, I feel that theMy reward is feeling good about myself when I've done something nice. I like
> expectation of a 'reward' for being generous with oneself and ones time is
> what kills relationships, friendships and whittles away at each of us,
> lessens us somehow. I won't help you until I know that you'll help
> me? How sad. How immature?
doing nice things for people, it's kinda selfish in that way. But if I won't
feel good afterwards, if I'll resent people later, I don't offer, or I say
no. I'd agree with you that the expectation of anything in return can cause
resentment and rifts in relationships.
It's like lending money. If someone needs some cash and I have it and don't
need it, it's theirs, but I never expect it back. If they pay me back because
they want to, fine. But I don't lend, I give. Same thing, in my mind. If I
don't have it to spare, I say no, no guilt.
I don't expect anything in return for a favor. But I also am no longer
friends with people who take and take and never give, either.
Now, Karma IS in the back of my mind, however, and I do believe that what you
put out, you get back. So I'm either neutral or positive as much as
possible. Self interest, there, definitely.
~Aimee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***I like doing nice things for people,***
"It's nice to be nice to the nice."
Frank Burns
MASH 4077
"It's nice to be nice to the nice."
Frank Burns
MASH 4077
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/25/03 11:22:06 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< ***I like doing nice things for people,***
"It's nice to be nice to the nice."
Frank Burns
MASH 4077 >>
At first I thought Frank Burns had joined the list! <bwg>
This morning I was talking to my husband about this philosophical discussion,
and he said somone on Babylon 5 said this:
"When you say you have no choice, it's only to justify the choice you've
already made."
So there. I told ya Babylon 5 was serving as his belief system. <bwg>
Sandra
<< ***I like doing nice things for people,***
"It's nice to be nice to the nice."
Frank Burns
MASH 4077 >>
At first I thought Frank Burns had joined the list! <bwg>
This morning I was talking to my husband about this philosophical discussion,
and he said somone on Babylon 5 said this:
"When you say you have no choice, it's only to justify the choice you've
already made."
So there. I told ya Babylon 5 was serving as his belief system. <bwg>
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
<<A list-mate was defining 'Enlightened Self Interest' where a person
does something nice for someone else because they believe doing such
means that something nice will happen to themselves.>>
"The Magnificent Obsession" with Rock Hudson. The character starts with
an ulterior motive, but gets taken over by the obsession to help others.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
does something nice for someone else because they believe doing such
means that something nice will happen to themselves.>>
"The Magnificent Obsession" with Rock Hudson. The character starts with
an ulterior motive, but gets taken over by the obsession to help others.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marjorie Kirk
>discussion,
> In a message dated 9/25/03 11:22:06 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:
>
> << ***I like doing nice things for people,***
>
> "It's nice to be nice to the nice."
>
> Frank Burns
> MASH 4077 >>
>
> At first I thought Frank Burns had joined the list! <bwg>
>
> This morning I was talking to my husband about this philosophical
> and he said somone on Babylon 5 said this:Here's another spin on choice: "If you choose not to decide, you still have
>
> "When you say you have no choice, it's only to justify the choice you've
> already made."
>
> So there. I told ya Babylon 5 was serving as his belief system. <bwg>
>
> Sandra
>
made a choice" From Rush 2112.
Marjorie
OH, and a slightly different spin: "Every day, we're chosing our
confessions...." R.E.M.
I guess rock and roll can serve as your belief system too.(BWG)