[email protected]

In a message dated 9/23/2003 3:51:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
. I know what is best for my family, just wondering why some unschoolers say
to give it up and the unschoolers here say not to.<<<<


And there are several unschooling lists out there that will say that letting
the child pick which workbook to use this hour is unschooling.

We're the serious unschoolers! <BWG>

That book was based on a few families the author chose to interview. Had he
come HERE, he would have gotten a different view of unschooling and learning.
YOU can pick and choose which unschoolers you'd rather "follow". Here you'll
find open, gentle parents who understand learning and unschooling and will
discuss it TO DEATH!

Again, unschooling is living as if school didn't exist---not as if the WORLD
didn't!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

That book was written by Mary and Michael Leppert who run "the Link"
conference where they had Gail Withrow as a speaker, talking against
unschooling. Her website is:
<http://www.hometaught.com/app_unschooling.htm>. She says things like:

"John Holt's philosophy of unschooling is based on a false premise: the
premise that ideas are innate. His radical position is that children
automatically know how and what to learn, that they're born with the
knowledge of how to get knowledge—which is utter nonsense."

-pam


On Tuesday, September 23, 2003, at 01:22 PM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> That book was based on a few families the author chose to interview.
> Had he
> come HERE, he would have gotten a different view of unschooling and
> learning.

catherine aceto

Lol -- well at least they think it is better than public school.

-cat
----- Original Message -----
From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] the book and this list


That book was written by Mary and Michael Leppert who run "the Link"
conference where they had Gail Withrow as a speaker, talking against
unschooling. Her website is:
<http://www.hometaught.com/app_unschooling.htm>. She says things like:

"John Holt's philosophy of unschooling is based on a false premise: the
premise that ideas are innate. His radical position is that children
automatically know how and what to learn, that they're born with the
knowledge of how to get knowledge—which is utter nonsense."

-pam


On Tuesday, September 23, 2003, at 01:22 PM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> That book was based on a few families the author chose to interview.
> Had he
> come HERE, he would have gotten a different view of unschooling and
> learning.


"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

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[email protected]

<<And there are several unschooling lists out there that will say that
letting

the child pick which workbook to use this hour is unschooling.>>


I just joined one that mentioned workbooks and television and I left it
because I thought it was a homeschooling list. Lots for us still to discover!


<<We're the serious unschoolers! <BWG>>>


So then would you say that the serious unschoolers are really radical
unschoolers? I hear that mentioned often also.




<<YOU can pick and choose which unschoolers you'd rather "follow". Here
you'll

find open, gentle parents who understand learning and unschooling and will
discuss it TO DEATH!>>



We went down the workbook, restricting and so on path and we were all
miserable. I wouldn't give up this way for anything. The changes in us and it in
Christopher speak volumes.


Guess I haven't done much research on other methods or how other unschoolers
do things. I found this list and have been glued here since. The book sort of
surprised Kevin and I. We thought this way was the only way. Still do!



<<Again, unschooling is living as if school didn't exist---not as if the
WORLD didn't!>>



Thanks Kelly! Another great saying for my collection.

Kim
Not letting hubby buy any more books!

Heidi

I didn't see what "book" this thread is about, but I did visit the
Leppert site and also the GAil Withrow site, and have a question.

Maybe a rhetorical question. Actually, a rant.

She states that unschoolers are dead set against teaching. Hello? I
teach my kids all the time, just not from forcing them to sit down
and fill in the blanks or answer arbitrary questions about the
reading they're doing. I teach them by talking with them about
things, doing things and them observing and helping, and sometimes, I
even teach them by sitting down with them, a piece of paper, a
pencil, and a...gasp...workbook...so they can practice their cursive
r's or their addition facts (and this, tis as the lady claims, is at
their request. I don't come up to them and say "today, you learn
about r's" but when they find a need to learn how to sign their
names, and there is an r in there...? THEN)

Having read quite a bit of John Holt and done with him as I do with
every author (keep what is good, toss what I can't use), I find his
ideas about teaching to be reality based. I can't believe he was
opposed to teaching, having been an educator himself for how long? I
know from experience, that you can NOT teach a kid something he is
not ready to learn...Katie's reading as my favorite case in point.

Last year at this time, (pre-Natural Learning-days) her every "let's
sit down and work on your reading" lesson was a study in pouting,
hollering, frustration, hatred of the written word, and other very
negative things. From a kid who usually wants to please. This year,
she opens up her Nate the Great books and asks me to come over and
listen to her read. WITH PLEASURE, MY DEAR! :) I "taught" her
and "taught" her until phonics was coming out my ears...and going in
one and out the other of HER ears...starting when she was five (the
age I did phonics w/my other two, who then started reading) It's
amazing I didn't permanently kill her desire to read, with all my
TEACHING!!!

And guess what? With me sitting next to her and helping her with
(many) words...I'm STILL TEACHING HER! sheesh. I have nothing against
teaching, Ms. Gail Windrow LOL sorry...Withrow...rant...matter of
fact, since learning about Natural Learning, I'm very much more
attuned to my kids' learning, more on the lookout for teaching
moments than I EVER was before. Before, it was "do this many pages of
writing, finish reading that book, and a full problem set of math"
and if they did the seatwork, they were done. I wasn't teaching them
in those days; I was marking their FREAKING papers! And making sure
they corrected whatever needed it, thus turning their days into
strongly divided chunks of time: seatwork time, and "cool, get to go
play" time...which one did they desire the most? three guesses. And
during which chunk of time did my kids gain knowledge that THEY HAVE
KEPT? grrrrrr.

Oh, I take that back. Robby does know his times tables, thanks to the
about half an hour of study I "forced" on him, towards the end of our
Robinson Curriculum days. But why, once he knew the times tables, did
he have to continue spouting them, day in and day out, a la Robinson
and Saxon? He had learned them, and today, two years after learing
them, he still knows them. But Robinson expected him to continue in
the same vein, ad nauseum. The little twerp DIDN'T LIKE IT. How dare
he not LOVE all that "learning"? LOL and Robby hasn't done a single
bit of sit-down math since about January of this year...except one
time, near the beginning, when I got nervous and asked him to do some
long division...L He didn't know what I was talking about, until he
saw the problems I had written out for him to solve. Which he did
without a hitch, and I've never looked back since then.

So, the question. Is this list anti-teaching? Is unschooling really
about a parent not purposely teaching their children anything? If so,
then I'm doing it wrong, because I do a lot of it in any given day.
For instance, I purposely taught about cutting up potatoes yesterday.
And my hubby has purposely taught about chopping wood and laying a
fire.

Maybe it's the lack of a formal curriculum that makes Ms. Withrow
nervous. Yet, if it came right down to it, and a kid wanted to know a
lot about something, I'd lay out a course, based on my experience and
knowledge..."course" being the English translation of the word
curriculum. Maybe!!! oh, this is it, I bet. Maybe she wants me to lay
out that course and set my kids on it, whether they want to learn
about the topic or not. I have no problem with suggesting a direction
to my kids, one that I think would interest them and be useful. But
I'm not going to try and teach something that they aren't ready to
learn. And they'll be ready to learn when they've found a need for
it, from their day to day living. Some of what they need, I'll teach
to them. Some, they will learn themselves through experience. And
some, dare I say it, they will find other mentors to learn from.

*end rant*

blessings, HeidiC


--- In [email protected], "catherine aceto"
<aceto3@v...> wrote:
> Lol -- well at least they think it is better than public school.
>
> -cat
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@m...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 8:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] the book and this list
>
>
> That book was written by Mary and Michael Leppert who run "the Link"
> conference where they had Gail Withrow as a speaker, talking against
> unschooling. Her website is:
> <http://www.hometaught.com/app_unschooling.htm>. She says things
like:
>
> "John Holt's philosophy of unschooling is based on a false premise:
the
> premise that ideas are innate. His radical position is that children
> automatically know how and what to learn, that they're born with the
> knowledge of how to get knowledge—which is utter nonsense."
>
> -pam
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 23, 2003, at 01:22 PM, kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
>
> > That book was based on a few families the author chose to
interview.
> > Had he
> > come HERE, he would have gotten a different view of unschooling
and
> > learning.
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[email protected]

kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> Again, unschooling is living as if school didn't exist---not as if the
> WORLD
> didn't!
>
> ~Kelly


Oh, oh, oh!! I LOVE THAT!! LOL

~Aimee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-=-Having read quite a bit of John Holt and done with him as I do with

every author (keep what is good, toss what I can't use), I find his

ideas about teaching to be reality based. I can't believe he was

opposed to teaching, having been an educator himself for how long? I

know from experience, that you can NOT teach a kid something he is

not ready to learn...Katie's reading as my favorite case in point.-=-

When I was in college and was assigned to read John Holt, the professor told
me teaching was nonexistent. There was no action, and that if teaching were a
legitimate transitive verb, you must be able to affect the object, but that
all the learning that takes place in a student takes place inside him on his
terms.

The term they wanted us to understand and strive to become was "facilitator
of others' learning."

I'm a facilitator of a LOT of people's learning, and have been my whole life.
I was the sex-ed source for kids my age from the time I was nine, but I
never "taught a class" or prepared a lesson. I answered questions and found
resources. I've "taught" a lot of people vocal music, but what I did was find a
song, help them with their parts if they needed help, and then sing with them
until we were all singing it without thinking very hard and it seemed natural.
I've helped other people do all kind of things in everyday life because I've
always been good at understanding procedures. I was facilitating.

-=-So, the question. Is this list anti-teaching? Is unschooling really

about a parent not purposely teaching their children anything?-=-

I'm against "purposely teaching" if the purpose is to try to wrest learning
away from a child and turn it to traditional top-down delivery of information
presented on a schedule. And for most people, that's what "teaching" means.
I own information and will dole it out to you in 45 minute dollops, and it is
your DUTY to be attentive and apply yourself to learning, or you have wasted
your teacher's time.

Isn't that the way it goes? Teachers aren't accused of wasting their
students' time, but students who already know and so are distracted, or can't fathom
at all what the guy's talking about, or who don't give a damn are accused of
wasting their teacher's time.


-=-For instance, I purposely taught about cutting up potatoes yesterday.

And my hubby has purposely taught about chopping wood and laying a

fire.-=-

You don't know that you "taught" them. You talked about the best ways and
the dangers and you demonstrated. If they already knew you didn't teach them.
If they were wishing really hard to be elsewhere and so won't remember the
next time what you said, you didn't teach them. If they really wanted to learn
to cut up potatoes yesterday, they learned. Your talking and doing was part
of what they needed to learn. If you're sure you taught, try teaching your
dog, or a kid who can't use her hands at all, or someone who sees a knife and
just wants to kill you with it and leave a message spelled out in potato-parts.


-=-Maybe it's the lack of a formal curriculum that makes Ms. Withrow

nervous. Yet, if it came right down to it, and a kid wanted to know a

lot about something, I'd lay out a course, based on my experience and

knowledge..."course" being the English translation of the word

curriculum.-=-

"Course" is where horses run. You set a course, and you make each horse
follow it in the same direction.

<< Maybe!!! oh, this is it, I bet. Maybe she wants me to lay

out that course and set my kids on it, whether they want to learn

about the topic or not.>>

Well DUH! <g>

<< But I'm not going to try and teach something that they aren't ready to

learn.>>

Sounds like you're against teaching, because part of what she means is the
parent is in charge of when and what.

Sounds like your an unschooler who understands that a kid who's ready WANTS
to learn and will appreciate help, and that trying to teach a child something
he doesn't want is going to hamper unschooling.

People who want to be the teachers need to dislike unschoolers and find us
wrong and lazy. If they see or admit that our kids are doing well and we're
spending quite a bit of energy and thought making sure that's true, then they
have a choice and they've chosen something difficult and somewhat unworkable.
Then they're mad at us for having more fun.

This, I think, was the author's gut-level premise:
If two ways both work, the one that's least fun must be the most moral.
If it tastes bad it must be good for you.
If it feels good, don't do it.

It's much easier to condemn people who are having more fun than you are.

But back to teach/learn, here's why I think clarity about the difference is
important, and I saved it in a more permanent place than these e-mails:

http://sandradodd.com/wordswords

Sandra

Heidi

You know what's funny...before coming across a "late starting reader"
I was a "purely phonics" type, believing all the writing out there
about how you must teach reading by phonics, or they won't learn how
to read. Deep, analytical, take it apart and put it back together,
type phonics (love it! L)

But Katie taught me that all the phonics in the world is totally
useless to a brain that isn't ready to read.

My kids also taught me that, if they're not into it, they aren't
going to learn. KONOS is a cool curriculum, jam-packed with hands-on
ideas about TONS of subjects. Heavy on History and Natural Science.
We had the most wonderful times with Medieval History and Eyesight
and Light, using ideas from KONOS...and then I decided it was time to
learn about plants.

wow! even my little scientist Abbie was "no thanks." and all my
wonderful plans for them simply fizzled out.

What I'm trying to say is, when it was all written out and I was
reading about this stuff: how to make a lesson plan, how to teach
reading, and the belief that there is knowledge that everyone needs
to have and it is my job to hand them that knowledge...well, when I
was merely reading/preparing for educating my kids, I was in total
agreement with that philosophy. When I actually got into it and was
doing/trying to do what was shown forth by "the experts"...it was a
different story altogether. My kids taught me this much: learning
comes from them, not from me. When I finally grasped that, and let go
of the idea that *I* and *I alone* must be their teacher, is when we
began to be joyful and happy with each other. Wanting to be together,
we spend time trying new things, doing old favorite things, visiting,
hanging out...what's not to love? LOL

blessings, HeidiC



> When I was in college and was assigned to read John Holt, the
professor told
> me teaching was nonexistent. There was no action, and that if
teaching were a
> legitimate transitive verb, you must be able to affect the object,
but that
> all the learning that takes place in a student takes place inside
him on his
> terms.
>
> The term they wanted us to understand and strive to become
was "facilitator
> of others' learning."

Olga

Kelly,

I just love this statement:
>
> Again, unschooling is living as if school didn't exist---not as if
the WORLD
> didn't!
>
> ~Kelly
>
Talk about a great little reminder for me when I start to feel
uncertain. Although, it seems things are finally clicking here. I
finally get things that I was still trying to grasp early this
year. I can see the learning full circle around us. For example,
my son is playing Zelda with his Dad. In this version you sail a
boat and have to decide how to navigate it based on a map with
islands. Here is my 5yo figuring out which way to go and I thought
that has to beat those stupid map worksheets we used to do in
school. Remember, you are here, the school is 2 blocks north, blah,
blah, blah. There is no decision to teach maps, it is just
happening as we play. Pretty cool.

Olga :)