new member intro and beliefs
Holly Shaltz
I happened to join this list just as the beliefs thread got going. I've
been fighting the impulse to respond as Judie's beliefs as stated
clearly was emotionally upsetting to some members. But I was never any
good at sitting on my fingers when interesting and/or controversial
issues come up on lists :) I have less than an hour before I have to
dash off to my part-time job, so we'll see if I can do this in so short
a time. Ha! My boss called half an hour before time to leave to say I
don't have to come in until 1. I wish she had called before I got my
lunch ready to take in :)
I am Holly Shaltz, just turned 45, fiberist <http://www.hjsstudio.com>,
farmer <http://www.shaltzfarm.com>, mom to 3 kids (Chris, 24; Jon, 22,
and Bethany, 12 on Thursday), retired military spouse, about to
celebrate 25th wedding anniversary with husband Zack--more than a
miracle in military circles :). Let's see--yes, former LLL leader, oh,
yeah, been unschooling/homeschooling for 13 1/2 years.
The posts about Judie's beliefs interested me particularly because my
spiritual beliefs are somewhat similar. Here's a synopsis, FWIW:
We are all part of one spiritual, non-coporeal being or force or
whatever concept we can come up with using words. You can call this
force God if you like, but in my view that's limiting and defining it.
I don't personally believe in God or any other form of deity. All life
(some of which our human bodies don't recognize as life) is part of this
spiritual existence. I call this Tao (not a deity, and Taoism is not a
religion), as Taoism is the closest human belief or philisophical system
that I know of to the concept I have. "The Tao that can be spoken of is
not true Tao" indicates the limitations of human understanding and
expression when it comes to things beyond our physical existence very
well.
Being non-coporeal, before we enter into this physical life we don't
experience pain, fear, and suchlike things. My (limited) experience of
feeling oneness with this spiritual existence suggests that our
non-coporeal existence does experience something I can best describe as
total acceptance, and which feels like what we humans call unconditional
love. But other emotions are inevitably tied to humanity's physical
nature, and non-coporeal beings don't experience it. There may be other
forms of physical life which experience things human's don't, as well,
and our spiritual selves choose to live in those bodies for a time,
too. Animals or aliens, I don't know, nor does it matter :)
A note on that total acceptance thing--as humans, we are constantly
searching for the acceptance we remember from before our birth into
physical life. When we can recognize where the yearning came from, we
can live with it in a healthy (by our cultural standards) manner. When
we don't recognize it, we will be searching for it from other, fallible,
humans forever, or from addictions--and usually failing, because our
physical natures inevitably appear to separate us. My very posting
here, even my joining this list, is a sign of that yearning in me.
Sometimes we spiritual beings choose to be born into physical
existence. _The Reluctant Messiah_ by Richard Bach put that
beautifully, and other books by him develop the concept further. He
writes that we choose an existence to experience physically for a time
just as we humans might choose a movie to watch. If we want excitement
and adventure, or fear, or comedy, we choose different movies. As
non-coporeal beings unable to experience emotions and other physical
conditions, we choose physical life in order to experience those
conditions.
I don't believe with Judy that we work out every detail before we are
born. That would be too boring for me :) However, maybe some people
do. Personally, I think we choose the broad outlines of our lives, and
leave the rest to happen as it may. So I chose a stable but sometimes
frustrating marriage, to deal with issues of not feeling worthy, to
experience various losses, to never have enough money for the things I'd
like to have, etc. Then it's up to me to do what I like with those
experiences, while I'm wearing this human form.
Others might choose to be born as a severely handicapped child, or a
refugee from war, or a politician <g> in order to experience the
benefits and limitations of each of those physical forms.
So things we, as human beings, label 'bad' or 'negative' or 'evil'
happen because we, as spiritual beings, chose lives that allow those
things to happen, knowing (as spiritual beings) that they are no more
real than a movie is real.
However, being human in (making some assuptions here for the sake of
discussion) 21st C North American/Western cultures, we are brought up in
a culture which emphasizes compassion, responsibility for our own and
sometimes others' actions, etc. If that hypothetical abused wife or
rape victim showed up at my door, or Judie's door, I'm sure I, and she,
would take that person in, call 911, etc. I know I would, anyway :) As
a spiritual being, I know that ultimately the 'bad' things are not real;
as a physical being, I know that they hurt here and now, and I would
like to relieve my own and others' pain where I can do so responsibly.
Would I allow a child molester baby-sit my kids? No, of course not,
because it's not consistent with my values as a human being. But I can
see that the child molester is a tortured human being, who in turn is a
'soul' for want of a better word who chose to live a pain-filled
physical life for the experience of it, just as some people go to see
the "Halloween" movies, which I abhor. I can feel for both the molester
and his/her victims here and now, while knowing that ultimately it's all
part of the movie, not part of the ultimate reality.
Whether these beliefs are similar enough to Judie's that she would agree
with them I don't know. I have personally struggled with the
implications Sandra read into Judie's statments--and again, it's
something Richard Bach has written about in his books. It would be
logically justifiable, based on my belief system, to assume that
everyone on earth is in pain, or victimized, or what-have-you because
they chose that life, and no one need feel compassion or take action
based on that negative experience. However, I am an actor in this
culture/timeframe. I chose to have an upbringing which provides my
physical self with certain values which tend toward ignoring
spirituality in terms of favoring physical life for a time. Those
values tend my physical actions in favor of helping those I can help in
an emotionally positive (by our culture's standards) way.
It is also logically justifiable that anyone agreeing with my beliefs
could decide to go on a murderous rampage and there would be no negative
consequences for the rampager (other than likely ending his/her life in
prison, or shot by police, or executed--all part of the movie, so it
doesn't matter :) I don't choose to act with that degree of freedom,
because I am influenced by the values my physical self has
learned--including that, for me, the consequence of being executed as a
way of exiting this physical existence is not as pleasant as the exit of
dying in bed surrounded by loved ones :)
Having said all that <phew!> I bow out, knowing that none of what I have
written is important to anyone :) I take myself with a large grain of
salt. Ultimately, all beliefs are simply aspects of our physical lives,
and will be discarded when we exit this life. IOW, 'tain't important
enough to get hot about now or ever.
It shall be interesting to see the reaction (if any :) to this post,
though. My first impression is one of the list's atmosphere being
somewhat judgemental--at least when one particular button is pushed.
Alas, my physical self includes having been raised by an extremely
critical, judgemental, angry mother and an emotionally unavailable
father, so I'm rather sensitive to judgement. Something that my
physical being has worked to resolve, with limited success, while my
spiritual self is probably laughing that I can't quite see past that
particular illusion :)
Holly
welcoming the first real rain to fall in over 2 months--too late to save
our pastures--and wishing she could change the apparent physical reality
of the world to not include drought <g>
been fighting the impulse to respond as Judie's beliefs as stated
clearly was emotionally upsetting to some members. But I was never any
good at sitting on my fingers when interesting and/or controversial
issues come up on lists :) I have less than an hour before I have to
dash off to my part-time job, so we'll see if I can do this in so short
a time. Ha! My boss called half an hour before time to leave to say I
don't have to come in until 1. I wish she had called before I got my
lunch ready to take in :)
I am Holly Shaltz, just turned 45, fiberist <http://www.hjsstudio.com>,
farmer <http://www.shaltzfarm.com>, mom to 3 kids (Chris, 24; Jon, 22,
and Bethany, 12 on Thursday), retired military spouse, about to
celebrate 25th wedding anniversary with husband Zack--more than a
miracle in military circles :). Let's see--yes, former LLL leader, oh,
yeah, been unschooling/homeschooling for 13 1/2 years.
The posts about Judie's beliefs interested me particularly because my
spiritual beliefs are somewhat similar. Here's a synopsis, FWIW:
We are all part of one spiritual, non-coporeal being or force or
whatever concept we can come up with using words. You can call this
force God if you like, but in my view that's limiting and defining it.
I don't personally believe in God or any other form of deity. All life
(some of which our human bodies don't recognize as life) is part of this
spiritual existence. I call this Tao (not a deity, and Taoism is not a
religion), as Taoism is the closest human belief or philisophical system
that I know of to the concept I have. "The Tao that can be spoken of is
not true Tao" indicates the limitations of human understanding and
expression when it comes to things beyond our physical existence very
well.
Being non-coporeal, before we enter into this physical life we don't
experience pain, fear, and suchlike things. My (limited) experience of
feeling oneness with this spiritual existence suggests that our
non-coporeal existence does experience something I can best describe as
total acceptance, and which feels like what we humans call unconditional
love. But other emotions are inevitably tied to humanity's physical
nature, and non-coporeal beings don't experience it. There may be other
forms of physical life which experience things human's don't, as well,
and our spiritual selves choose to live in those bodies for a time,
too. Animals or aliens, I don't know, nor does it matter :)
A note on that total acceptance thing--as humans, we are constantly
searching for the acceptance we remember from before our birth into
physical life. When we can recognize where the yearning came from, we
can live with it in a healthy (by our cultural standards) manner. When
we don't recognize it, we will be searching for it from other, fallible,
humans forever, or from addictions--and usually failing, because our
physical natures inevitably appear to separate us. My very posting
here, even my joining this list, is a sign of that yearning in me.
Sometimes we spiritual beings choose to be born into physical
existence. _The Reluctant Messiah_ by Richard Bach put that
beautifully, and other books by him develop the concept further. He
writes that we choose an existence to experience physically for a time
just as we humans might choose a movie to watch. If we want excitement
and adventure, or fear, or comedy, we choose different movies. As
non-coporeal beings unable to experience emotions and other physical
conditions, we choose physical life in order to experience those
conditions.
I don't believe with Judy that we work out every detail before we are
born. That would be too boring for me :) However, maybe some people
do. Personally, I think we choose the broad outlines of our lives, and
leave the rest to happen as it may. So I chose a stable but sometimes
frustrating marriage, to deal with issues of not feeling worthy, to
experience various losses, to never have enough money for the things I'd
like to have, etc. Then it's up to me to do what I like with those
experiences, while I'm wearing this human form.
Others might choose to be born as a severely handicapped child, or a
refugee from war, or a politician <g> in order to experience the
benefits and limitations of each of those physical forms.
So things we, as human beings, label 'bad' or 'negative' or 'evil'
happen because we, as spiritual beings, chose lives that allow those
things to happen, knowing (as spiritual beings) that they are no more
real than a movie is real.
However, being human in (making some assuptions here for the sake of
discussion) 21st C North American/Western cultures, we are brought up in
a culture which emphasizes compassion, responsibility for our own and
sometimes others' actions, etc. If that hypothetical abused wife or
rape victim showed up at my door, or Judie's door, I'm sure I, and she,
would take that person in, call 911, etc. I know I would, anyway :) As
a spiritual being, I know that ultimately the 'bad' things are not real;
as a physical being, I know that they hurt here and now, and I would
like to relieve my own and others' pain where I can do so responsibly.
Would I allow a child molester baby-sit my kids? No, of course not,
because it's not consistent with my values as a human being. But I can
see that the child molester is a tortured human being, who in turn is a
'soul' for want of a better word who chose to live a pain-filled
physical life for the experience of it, just as some people go to see
the "Halloween" movies, which I abhor. I can feel for both the molester
and his/her victims here and now, while knowing that ultimately it's all
part of the movie, not part of the ultimate reality.
Whether these beliefs are similar enough to Judie's that she would agree
with them I don't know. I have personally struggled with the
implications Sandra read into Judie's statments--and again, it's
something Richard Bach has written about in his books. It would be
logically justifiable, based on my belief system, to assume that
everyone on earth is in pain, or victimized, or what-have-you because
they chose that life, and no one need feel compassion or take action
based on that negative experience. However, I am an actor in this
culture/timeframe. I chose to have an upbringing which provides my
physical self with certain values which tend toward ignoring
spirituality in terms of favoring physical life for a time. Those
values tend my physical actions in favor of helping those I can help in
an emotionally positive (by our culture's standards) way.
It is also logically justifiable that anyone agreeing with my beliefs
could decide to go on a murderous rampage and there would be no negative
consequences for the rampager (other than likely ending his/her life in
prison, or shot by police, or executed--all part of the movie, so it
doesn't matter :) I don't choose to act with that degree of freedom,
because I am influenced by the values my physical self has
learned--including that, for me, the consequence of being executed as a
way of exiting this physical existence is not as pleasant as the exit of
dying in bed surrounded by loved ones :)
Having said all that <phew!> I bow out, knowing that none of what I have
written is important to anyone :) I take myself with a large grain of
salt. Ultimately, all beliefs are simply aspects of our physical lives,
and will be discarded when we exit this life. IOW, 'tain't important
enough to get hot about now or ever.
It shall be interesting to see the reaction (if any :) to this post,
though. My first impression is one of the list's atmosphere being
somewhat judgemental--at least when one particular button is pushed.
Alas, my physical self includes having been raised by an extremely
critical, judgemental, angry mother and an emotionally unavailable
father, so I'm rather sensitive to judgement. Something that my
physical being has worked to resolve, with limited success, while my
spiritual self is probably laughing that I can't quite see past that
particular illusion :)
Holly
welcoming the first real rain to fall in over 2 months--too late to save
our pastures--and wishing she could change the apparent physical reality
of the world to not include drought <g>
[email protected]
Welcome Holly,
Your post was beautifully written, and yet another moment of synchronicity
occured for me, just this morning. I unloaded my car from the weekend and my
sister had put 2 boxes of books she was done with in my car. I hadn't gone
through them when I left, just told her to throw the boxes in so I could head out.
My sister had reassured me that some of my books, that I had shared with her,
including my John Holt's, were in the boxes. I laughed a little when I took the
second box out this morning, and right on the top row, sat "Illisions, the
Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah" by Richard Bach (of course it sat next to a
book she has been begging me to read titled, "A Case for Christ"). I kind of
smiled at the sky and gave a little wink. I really don't know if I planned to
share that his writings in this book are very similar to my beliefs, but it is
one of those books that I like to read when I'm feeling far to bogged down with
earthiness ;-).
Thanx for sharing it, I guess I needed a shove! Again welcome to the list.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your post was beautifully written, and yet another moment of synchronicity
occured for me, just this morning. I unloaded my car from the weekend and my
sister had put 2 boxes of books she was done with in my car. I hadn't gone
through them when I left, just told her to throw the boxes in so I could head out.
My sister had reassured me that some of my books, that I had shared with her,
including my John Holt's, were in the boxes. I laughed a little when I took the
second box out this morning, and right on the top row, sat "Illisions, the
Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah" by Richard Bach (of course it sat next to a
book she has been begging me to read titled, "A Case for Christ"). I kind of
smiled at the sky and gave a little wink. I really don't know if I planned to
share that his writings in this book are very similar to my beliefs, but it is
one of those books that I like to read when I'm feeling far to bogged down with
earthiness ;-).
Thanx for sharing it, I guess I needed a shove! Again welcome to the list.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Holly Shaltz
Rhonda writes:
<< but it is one of those books that I like to read when I'm feeling far
to bogged down with earthiness ;-).>>
Me too :) My beliefs are more clear in my heart than my head. I can
get caught up in the daily grind and forget that 'reality' isn't
REALITY. Illusions is the best quick read I know of to remind me of
where I am and why I'm here.
Thanks for the welcome,
Holly
<< but it is one of those books that I like to read when I'm feeling far
to bogged down with earthiness ;-).>>
Me too :) My beliefs are more clear in my heart than my head. I can
get caught up in the daily grind and forget that 'reality' isn't
REALITY. Illusions is the best quick read I know of to remind me of
where I am and why I'm here.
Thanks for the welcome,
Holly
pam sorooshian
On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 07:04 AM, Holly Shaltz wrote:
overall attitude expressed in that post, a LOT. When people can say, "I
take myself with a large grain of salt," I think that's a way of saying
that they aren't so darn certain that they are "right" and everybody
else "wrong" and that they would be able to handle it if people
questioned their reasons for their beliefs and be comfortable with the
idea that others might even think their beliefs were illogical or worse.
If I was going to post about my own personal graspings at a kind of
spiritual belief system, I'd say the same thing. I don't have any
interest in discussing it, though, so I am not posting about it. That
IS what the list is for - people bring up things they WANT to have
analyzed, things they want people to think about and question and
critically examine and give alternative ideas about. Right now, in my
life, I'm more interested in the here-and-now level - not in discussing
before or after-lives.
I do understand holding two ideas that seem to be at odds with each
other. That's what Holly seems to me to be describing. I think we do
that quite often - it seems to be in our nature. I can say I don't like
to travel, but then describe having a wonderful time on a particular
trip, for example.
I'm interested in how we choose to behave in this life - how we treat
our children, how we decide to live our lives. When somebody says that
we decided already - we're not choosing now - it leaves us with nothing
much to talk about - our Venn diagram has no intersection if that
person believes we are all simply acting out a prewritten script - a
script we all helped write and fully agree upon in advance.
If someone says, on the other hand, that we chose this KIND of life,
but we chose it in order to have to MAKE all the decisions that this
kind of life involves, that leaves us with our whole world of choices
to still talk about, whether we agree on how we got here or not.
-pam
>LOL - although most of the ideas don't appeal to me, I do LIKE the
> Having said all that <phew!> I bow out, knowing that none of what I
> have
> written is important to anyone :) I take myself with a large grain of
> salt. Ultimately, all beliefs are simply aspects of our physical
> lives,
> and will be discarded when we exit this life. IOW, 'tain't important
> enough to get hot about now or ever.
overall attitude expressed in that post, a LOT. When people can say, "I
take myself with a large grain of salt," I think that's a way of saying
that they aren't so darn certain that they are "right" and everybody
else "wrong" and that they would be able to handle it if people
questioned their reasons for their beliefs and be comfortable with the
idea that others might even think their beliefs were illogical or worse.
If I was going to post about my own personal graspings at a kind of
spiritual belief system, I'd say the same thing. I don't have any
interest in discussing it, though, so I am not posting about it. That
IS what the list is for - people bring up things they WANT to have
analyzed, things they want people to think about and question and
critically examine and give alternative ideas about. Right now, in my
life, I'm more interested in the here-and-now level - not in discussing
before or after-lives.
I do understand holding two ideas that seem to be at odds with each
other. That's what Holly seems to me to be describing. I think we do
that quite often - it seems to be in our nature. I can say I don't like
to travel, but then describe having a wonderful time on a particular
trip, for example.
I'm interested in how we choose to behave in this life - how we treat
our children, how we decide to live our lives. When somebody says that
we decided already - we're not choosing now - it leaves us with nothing
much to talk about - our Venn diagram has no intersection if that
person believes we are all simply acting out a prewritten script - a
script we all helped write and fully agree upon in advance.
If someone says, on the other hand, that we chose this KIND of life,
but we chose it in order to have to MAKE all the decisions that this
kind of life involves, that leaves us with our whole world of choices
to still talk about, whether we agree on how we got here or not.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/22/03 8:58:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
holly@... writes:
it's like the Ethereal self thwaps the back of my earthly head, causing my
Corporeal mind to say, "Hey! Oh yeeeaaahhh, I forgot." ;-)
A little cosmic humor!
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
holly@... writes:
> My beliefs are more clear in my heart than my head.Ditto. I hate when my Corporeal mind forgets about my Ethereal self. Then
it's like the Ethereal self thwaps the back of my earthly head, causing my
Corporeal mind to say, "Hey! Oh yeeeaaahhh, I forgot." ;-)
A little cosmic humor!
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]