[email protected]

In a message dated 9/20/03 01:16:45 AM Central Daylight Time,
RJHill241@... writes:
Pam,

The very first paragraph from my last post addressed my own beliefs.

As for needing evidence that such a theory exists, if one were to google:
theory of predestination, predestination or predestination in religions, a
vrtual
plethera of sites come up
##################################

Okay, I am sure others have posted on this already, but I'm just getting
going this morning and so I took this challenge up myself! <g> I spent well over
an hour reading through countless predestination sites from Google. I've known
about predestination for quite some time so I didn't find much new to me on
any of the sites. The one thing that has been new to me recently is that a form
of predestination that says; rapists, murderers, child molesters, all the way
down to bad parents, kids who stomp bugs, and eat their boogers, and throw
temper tantrums in the middle of the store, all chose that particular *thing*
before birth. I've heard of the Mormon belief that we all chose our birth parents
and we are all destined to live again with God and become gods and goddesses
in our own right after we die. (that is if we do all the right things on
earth) I have heard of many many ideas revolving around predestination. Some even
sound valid to me, although *I* don't believe them, I do recognize that the
beliefs are true and valid to others.

What I didn't find was the idea or form of predestination presented here on
this list by Judie and seconded by Rhonda. Not to say it doesn't exist or isn't
true to them, but I myself, did not find it on Google. BUT that is certainly
not to say Google is the definitive place for answers about obscure religions
and belief systems. So, I called my pastor, who is currently going through
more school to further his degree and since he is close to the source of
information and knowledge right now, I thought maybe he could give me an answer. No
such luck. (He recommended Google <g>) So I am now stuck. Google didn't do it
for me and neither did my pastor, I'm sure there are other places and people I
could go to for information, but really all the people here wanted to know was
where THIS form or idea of predestination comes from. If it comes from just
you or just Judie, then just say so.

As for is this unschooling or not, I think it is, I never stop learning. Many
discussions here spark my interest and I learn more and more everyday. I've
changed political beliefs, educational beliefs, parenting ideals, food beliefs,
(is there such a thing?) beliefs about TV and video games.... The list is
long and wide! My MIL always wonders what exactly it is that the kids are
learning, and I'm always tempted to say not much, but I sure am learning a lot! So if
you could please tell me where this one particular idea of predestination
comes from then there is one more thing I will have learned!

~Nancy

Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Elbert Hubbard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

susan marie

http://www.brianweiss.com/thebooks.htm#mlmm

I think he talks about predestination and difficult times. It's been a
while since I read this, but you might give this a try. Sylvia Browne
was already mentioned - she's a kind of love her or hate her kind of
thing. (not offering an opinion here, just info).

Another book is "Karma and Reincarnation" by Elizabeth Claire Prophet.
It's a little purple book, found in the new age section. Info on
reincarnation can be found in Buddhist, Hindu, new age, Wiccan, pagan,
Gnostic Christian writings. It varies some, but has a lot of
similarities too.

Most of what I've read doesn't talk about "predestination" as much as
life lessons and karmic debts, which is similar but does have some
similarites. I think the key difference is that in karmic debts/life
lessons, we are presented with a choice (this is pre-determined) but it
is up to us what we choose. In predestination, how we choose is also
predetermined, rather than simply the situation. And then of course,
once you choose, a whole different set of options, lessons, experiences,
open up based on which choice you made.

hth,
susan


On Saturday, September 20, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Dnowens@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/20/03 01:16:45 AM Central Daylight Time,
> RJHill241@... writes:
> Pam,
>
> The very first paragraph from my last post addressed my own beliefs.
>
> As for needing evidence that such a theory exists, if one were to
> google:
> theory of predestination, predestination or predestination in
> religions, a
> vrtual
> plethera of sites come up
> ##################################


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

>>>>>>>>>My MIL always wonders what exactly it is that the kids are
learning, and I'm always tempted to say not much, but I sure am learning a lot>>>>>>>>

Isn't that the truth? I feel like a kid in a candy store with endless choices of things to learn. I want to grab armloads and learn it all!

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/20/03 11:21:19 AM, Dnowens@... writes:

<< If it comes from just
you or just Judie, then just say so. >>

Apparently people didn't even read what Judie said, in some cases, but just
defended the idea that she had valid, dep beliefs without really looking at
them.

If I were to say "I believe that when a cat dies it comes back as a female
human, and when a dog dies, it comes back as a male, and that's why women are
generally smaller than men and why men are the defenders and women take more
naps," would anyone defend my right to that "valid" belief?

Would people believe I believed it just beause I started a paragraph "I
believe..."?

This is The Emperor's New Clothes in action, people! Don't say you see
something and it's "valid" just because some other people around you went "Ooooh.
Cool."

If we don't look for ourselves and be honest, we (humans, parents,
unschooling parents) won't do our kids NEARLY as much good as we will if we model
critical thinking.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/20/03 5:37:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> If I were to say "I believe that when a cat dies it comes back as a female
> human, and when a dog dies, it comes back as a male, and that's why women
> are
> generally smaller than men and why men are the defenders and women take more
>
> naps," would anyone defend my right to that "valid" belief?
>
>

Actually, that sounds about right to me.. LOL.. And, it really clears up alot
of that Venus/Mars stuff..

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514

>
> This is The Emperor's New Clothes in action, people! Don't say you
see
> something and it's "valid" just because some other people around
you went "Ooooh.
> Cool."
>


You seem to be saying that these beliefs have been made up here and
now and we are defending her right to have them. (which she does)

I have heard and read about and discussed beliefs very similiar to
Judies for many years with people I like and respect and some I think
are way out there.
These ideas may be new (relatively), but they are wide spread.


> If we don't look for ourselves and be honest, we (humans, parents,
> unschooling parents) won't do our kids NEARLY as much good as we
will if we model
> critical thinking.


You are dismissing something you have said you have never even heard
of.

[email protected]

-=-You are dismissing something you have said you have never even heard
of.-=-

I didn't say I had never even heard of it. I'm repeating the entirety of a
post which seemed to me to be important. It's my post, quoting the person who
said she didn't have to feel bad about what others were experiencing.

I'ver heard versions of that theory for years, but never this harsh, and
never used as an excuse to not even CARE how other people felt even in extreme
circumstances. This started with her saying she didn't care whether others were
uncomfortable about nursing, but when questioned in more extreme instances,
the clarification was made the even extreme instances are no exception. I
didn't say I had never heard of it. I wanted to know what the source of its growth
and continuance was. She either didn't know or didn't want to say. I'm
glad others had a better idea of the origins.

[quote from here down]



In a message dated 9/19/03 1:00:40 PM, adonai@... writes:

<< Since I believe that before we come here, we make an agreement with
people to participate in certain events together, I believe that the
person who might see me naked agreed with me before we came here that
we should both participate in this event. >>

So unborn people have free will but living breathing people are just acting
through a play decided before birth?

With a screenname like "Adonai," with a history of using ABeka and having
kids in Christian schools, how did you come so hard and fast to beliefs so
bizarrely different?

<<Therefore, whatever
reaction they have, they chose to have that reaction long before we
actually had that experience together. Whatever lesson they had to
learn from it, they chose it. I don't have to feel bad about what
they are experiencing. >>

THIS IS THE BIG ONE:

" I don't have to feel bad about what
they are experiencing. "

That's why I really don't like the "this was all decided" theory (and where
it came from, I have NO idea, but it's recent and it's harmful).

It justifies abuse.
If you abuse your own children, you don't have to feel bad about what they
are experiencing.

If your neighbor comes to you in fright in the middle of the night because
her husband is after her with a knife or a gun, you can refuse to let her in
because she chose that life, and you don't have to feel bad about what she's
experiencing.

Really, where does that belief/justification come from?
Who is promulgating it?

<<It's part of what has to happen to them for
them to choose to make their part of the world better by changing
their attitudes. If they don't, well, there's a lesson there too,
perhaps to be worked out in another lifetime.
>>

"Other lifetime" belief is traditional in many cultures, but the idea that
the way we live while we ARE here (as opposed to deals we allegedly make with
other dead people before we go back onstage) doesn't have any historical or
moral validity as far as I know or can imagine.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> -=-You are dismissing something you have said you have never even
heard
> of.-=-
>
> I didn't say I had never even heard of it. I'm repeating the
entirety of a
> post which seemed to me to be important. It's my post, quoting the
person who
> said she didn't have to feel bad about what others were
experiencing.


I see where you are coming from. ( I was perplexed):-)
I had read that post, but didn't assume the ideas that you did from
it. While I think people can believe there is destiny (Gods will,
pre planned...whatever) I would never think to take the human element
out of it. Feeling compassion for someone in pain is human. Our
beliefs don't take that away.
We can believe it was suppose to happen but still feel sad, sorry,
compassion....
The "I don't have to feel bad" comment, was read by me as; "this is
something they have to go through. This was their plan. While I'm
sad for them as a human, I don't feel bad for them because they are
fullfillng their plan."

I don't think I would ever assume someone with that belief system
would purposely be mean and say "it was pre planned" I especially
wouldn't assume that of someone unschooling.
I have a whole side of my family into New Age and this type of
thinking.
My Aunt is a New Age minister. She's really into Eurancha.
NONE of them would ever purposely cause harm.
I can't imagine anyone into this type of soul searching trying to
figure out how to be mean and "get away with it", which is what
seems to be your fear.

I do agree that the original poster dropped the ball here.
If it's a firm belief, I feel you should stand up for it.
It's not a firm belief for me. But, I don't dismiss what she said.
I think we read her differently, and I was just extremely curious why
you seemed to have a whole different view of what she and Rhonda were
saying.
Thankyou for clarifying. ;-)

Joanna

Fetteroll

on 9/20/03 10:36 PM, joanna514 at Wilkinson6@... wrote:

> I don't think I would ever assume someone with that belief system
> would purposely be mean and say "it was pre planned" I especially
> wouldn't assume that of someone unschooling.

Whether or not we can guess Judie is mean based on her beliefs isn't the
issue. The list isn't for discussing Judie. It's for discussing ideas.

The ideas she brought to the list are a topic of discussion. Ideas,
principles, view points are like filters. They help us decide what are good
and bad ideas and solutions.

> I have a whole side of my family into New Age and this type of
> thinking.
> My Aunt is a New Age minister. She's really into Eurancha.
> NONE of them would ever purposely cause harm.
> I can't imagine anyone into this type of soul searching trying to
> figure out how to be mean and "get away with it", which is what
> seems to be your fear.

The ideas of Christianity have helped some people make positive social
changes.

The ideas of Christianity have also justified some horrors and incredible
abuses.

Same with Islam.

I would bet the same with Hinduism but I don't know for sure.

Those belief systems are the filters people used to decide what was right
behavior. Some people have filtered ideas through Christianity and founded
leper colonies and soup kitchens. Others have filtered ideas through
Christianity and started crusades and come up with charts of rod sizes based
on age to whip children with.

If someone brings a bit of a belief system to the list that could justify
harming children, it's worth examining those ideas if those ideas have some
impact on people's ability to filter the solutions that will help them
create a peaceful joyful homeschooling life.

I'm going to seemingly go off on a tangent for a bit: Think about the most
difficult child problem you've solved and think about how you went about
deciding what were good and bad solutions.

Sibling rivalry comes up a lot. One filter that many people have is that
sibling rivalry is normal. Another is that it's mom's job to fix things.
Another is that it's a parent's job to control children's behavior until
they can control it themselves.

That first filter, that it's normal, filters out any agressive techniques to
force children to change. It tends to relieve us of guilt we might feel that
it's our fault and that we should be doing something about it. It doesn't
stop us from interfering but it filters out ideas that are based on "These
incidents are wrong and need to stop."

The second filter tends to filter out solutions that tell us to do nothing.
It increases the guilt we feel when we see them fighting. It's our job to
make them stop. It's a reflection on our abilities as parents that they're
even fighting to begin with.

The third filter lets through solutions that have control at their
foundation.

When looked at through those filters, all the solutions make some sense. It
does make sense to punish kids for fighting because it's our job to shape
them into decent humans. It does make sense to only step in when there's
blood because sibling rivalry is normal. If someone has all those filters
they have a head full of incompatible solutions and they don't know what's
right or best and they understandably feel confused.

But none of those filters helps us make the decisions that help our chldren
live more joyful and peaceful lives. Neither does the belief system that
Judie brought up. None of those prevents us from joyful peaceful families.
Just as Christianity doesn't prevent people from mindful parenting. But it
doesn't help them make the distinction between the decisions that will
create that joyful atmosphere and the decisions that will prevent it.

It's not that Judie or anyone needs to change her beliefs to be on the list,
but that the ideas she expressed on the list -- and it was the ideas she
brought up *before* she explained her spiritual beliefs that prompted
someone (Sandra?) to ask for futher clarification since the reasoning behind
her words wasn't clear -- aren't helpful to people trying to get to unschool
and more peaceful families. The ideas don't help people filter out the
solutions that will help them get to more peaceful family life and the ideas
that will hinder them.

This list is for discussion of ideas. We're not here to stop people from
holding ideas but we are here to hold up ideas brought to the list for
examination and talk about the ideas and why some ideas have helped poeple
reach unschooling goals and how some ideas have or could hinder them. No one
needs to stop believing in an idea just because they can't or don't want to
discuss how it helps people get to unschooling. They can hold it quietly.
But if the idea returns to the list, it will get held up for examination
again. Not as punishment for wrong thinking but because the purpose of this
list is for examining and discussing ideas that will help people get to
unschooling.

If someone can talk through their ideas and help others see how their ideas
are better at getting people from schoolish thought to unschooling thought
or to more peaceful families, then that's awesome! But if someone can't or
doesn't want to, if their ideas still look harmful, then the ideas *will* be
held up for examination every time they come up.

One of the misconceptions of the discussions is that we're trying to tell
people they aren't allowed to believe the ideas that they do. That they have
to toe some group-think line. No. People can *believe* what they want. But
people can't *express* whatever they want *without it being discussed*. If
someone thinks an idea is harmful to someone getting unschooling or living
more peaceful lives with their children, that idea is going to be examined.
It's what this list is for.

Joyce

Joyce

joanna514

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> on 9/20/03 10:36 PM, joanna514 at Wilkinson6@m... wrote:
>
> > I don't think I would ever assume someone with that belief system
> > would purposely be mean and say "it was pre planned" I especially
> > wouldn't assume that of someone unschooling.
>
> Whether or not we can guess Judie is mean based on her beliefs
isn't the
> issue. The list isn't for discussing Judie. It's for discussing
ideas.


Just to clarify, my post had nothing to do with Judie, but in
figuring out why I had a different reaction to her ideas than others.
I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't assume "meaness" behind any
of it. It was a personal reflection of myself (not necessarily a
good one). :-)

It was a shame we were left to have to assume.
Joanna

pam sorooshian

On Sunday, September 21, 2003, at 06:27 AM, joanna514 wrote:

> It was a shame we were left to have to assume.

It was how it was supposed to be. Chosen by each of us and her,
together, in a former lifetime to happen exactly like this. No need to
feel bad about it.

I don't really belief the above, but I'm still a bit fascinated by the
ideas. I can't get a grasp of why bother to really even "think" about
decisions - whichever decision made would be one that, after the fact,
I'd say, "That was the decision we decided on before this lifetime."

I can't get a hold of what basis there is to trying to make better
decisions. You can't make a "wrong" decision under this belief system
since all decisions were already decided upon.

The other thing, for us to have all decided on this particular outcome,
together, before we cam to the life, is an amazing feat of coordination
far beyond that which any computer could accomplish. Every single
decision any of ever made in our lives had to be coordinated to make
sure we were all here on this list together and posting exactly what we
posted. And that means every decision anybody else any of us have ever
had contact with had to be coordinated to make sure we had the
experiences we had that would guarantee we'd be on this list posting
exactly what we posted.

Also, to Joanne, I never thought Judie would be mean. I doubt it very
very much - based on what I saw here I suspect she actually is very
compassionate and kind. It is the "belief" itself that seems, not mean,
but dangerous in terms of how society would function if too many people
believed it. There would be no point in locking up child molesters, for
example, if the molester and the child had already CHOSEN in advance
whether or not the molestation was going to take place.

In terms of unschooling, it says to me that it doesn't matter how we
parent or educate our children, that its already been decided what they
will experience in their lives.

Its the mechanical nature of life, under this kind of belief, that
makes me want to look at it more closely. The people I know who believe
things similar to this don't, in practice, ACT like they believe it, in
my opinion. They act like the things they do really matter, they act
like they are making decisions now (not just carrying out decisions
made in a former lifetime or predestined by God or otherwise
predecided). They say things like, "We homeschool so that we can do
what we want." But that doesn't even make sense if they really believe
that they've already decided, in advance, what is going to happen and
nothing could stop it anyway.

-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/21/03 9:11:38 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< There would be no point in locking up child molesters, for
example, if the molester and the child had already CHOSEN in advance
whether or not the molestation was going to take place. >>

No, maybe he PLANNED to go to prison, and all involved have already chosen
the lawyers, judge and jury so that it will work out as they "predestined" it to.

The idea of predestination is along the lines of how many angels can dance on
the head of a pin, and can God make a rock so big he himself can't pick it up.

It's the idea that if God is omnicient, he must know what he's going to do
and what we're going to do. I've never heard anyone propose that humans are
omnicient, not even spirit-plane humans, so it's not a philosophical question of
omnicience.

Sandra

[email protected]

pamsoroosh@... writes:
> I don't really belief the above, but I'm still a bit fascinated by the
> ideas. I can't get a grasp of why bother to really even "think" about
> decisions - whichever decision made would be one that, after the fact,
> I'd say, "That was the decision we decided on before this lifetime."
>


The way I think of this, it's not the decisions that are made before we are
born, but it's the circumstances and experiences we choose to have that are
thought out and decided upon before we come into the world.

Free will is part of this idea, that we can choose how we react and deal with
the circumstances in our lives. The feeling that something was supposed to
happen in order for other things to happen is something that I experience
often. I even get the feeling that those experiences were somehow planned,
organized, and that there is, indeed, a divine hand at work in the course of my life.


<<It is the "belief" itself that seems, not mean,
but dangerous in terms of how society would function if too many people
believed it. There would be no point in locking up child molesters, for
example, if the molester and the child had already CHOSEN in advance
whether or not the molestation was going to take place. >>

People who believe in this idea often also believe in karma, reincarnation
and that we are spiritual beings in a physical body. It is the experiences of
physicality that are important, profound, no matter what the experience, good
or bad. The idea follows that if we were a molestor in one life, that we may
then choose to experience the other side of that behavior as the victim. (
That's how I understand karma. ) In order to be a victim, someone must agree to be
the offender. That offender may offer their life to spend in jail, that
could be one circumstance agreed upon as well. Maybe that person would try to
find value in that time spent on earth, I dunno.


<<In terms of unschooling, it says to me that it doesn't matter how we
parent or educate our children, that its already been decided what they
will experience in their lives.>>

I think it does matter what we each one of us choose to do, I believe in free
will. We can forget about the agreements we have made, we can choose to
ignore that still small voice that speaks from our hearts. I believe that this
happens more often than not, and is why the world is as it is.

And that some children that are molested, for example, did not agree to that
experience, and they have the hardest time with their experience in life. The
person whom hurt someone else must then attone for the pain they caused, and
karma kicks in. In their next life, or maybe inbetween lives, they will
experience the pain they inflicted. I believe that the idea of heaven and hell
comes from this karmatic balancing. We are all one, what we do to one, we do to
ourselves, in that way.

There are some that do remember, and those people don't necessarily stop
learning lessons, or have a perfect life, either. Most choose to try to make life
better for everyone and take on challenges that others aren't ready for. I
think of people like Ghandi and Mother Theresa and even Jesus or Buddha. Those
people didn't have perfect lives, I believe that they were human and did the
best that they could with the life they chose. But I believe those people
followed the path they decided upon much more closely than most do, if that makes
sense. They remembered who they really were.

<< They act like the things they do really matter, they act
like they are making decisions now (not just carrying out decisions
made in a former lifetime or predestined by God or otherwise
predecided). They say things like, "We homeschool so that we can do
what we want." But that doesn't even make sense if they really believe
that they've already decided, in advance, what is going to happen and
nothing could stop it anyway. >>

I hope I shed a little light on the idea by explaining my beliefs, but they
are only as I understand them. I am always learning. :-)

~Aimee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/03 11:20:53 AM, AimeeL73@... writes:

<< There would be no point in locking up child molesters, for
example, if the molester and the child had already CHOSEN in advance
whether or not the molestation was going to take place. >>

<<People who believe in this idea often also believe in karma, reincarnation
and that we are spiritual beings in a physical body. >>

Karma doesn't say you choose anything in advance.

It says people should be and are ultimately striving to be good, and some
people do it in a few lifetimes and some take many more lifetimes because they're
not focussing. So their suffering and their ill deeds are affecting others,
and eventually they'll become more enlightened.

But it doesn't even BEGIN to say that people deserve or chose to be victims.
Being a victim is a moment when the victim decides how to act, and his own
choices affect his own karma.

Each soul is growing toward a better place.
No soul would choose to be bad or to cause harm in advance of rebirth. That
makes no sense.


And the theory someone mentioned earlier that there are just some bad souls
who keep coming back bad is more akin to vampire fantasies than anything else
I've ever heard in my life. That or the Christian idea of demons tempting
people so Satan can get the soul instead of God.

<<In order to be a victim, someone must agree to be
the offender. That offender may offer their life to spend in jail, that
could be one circumstance agreed upon as well. Maybe that person would try
to
find value in that time spent on earth, I dunno. >>

This kind of stuff is made-up new-age stuff. People will write and sell all
kinds of fantasy "what if" that they thought might make someone feel better.

I don't see it as a religion in any way whatsoever, and that goes back to my
other question about what "beliefs" we should honor as someone's sincerely
held view of the universe and their moral place in it.

<< I believe that the idea of heaven and hell
comes from this karmatic balancing. >>

Karmic.

One way or another, no matter what people believe, doing good has got to be
better than doing evil.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/2003 2:24:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< There would be no point in locking up child molesters, for
example, if the molester and the child had already CHOSEN in advance
whether or not the molestation was going to take place. >>
WHAT????????????
When I was molested at 13 it was my destiny and he should not have been
locked up? Im surprised at this statement. If this ever happened to your child you
would NOT be speaking this crap. Try telling DHS "oh my little girl/boy it
'twas his/her destiny to be raped you see" Your destiny would bee the loss of
your child.

MY molester just went to jail for molesting his own daughter over the past 10
years. She is now a mess you think that is destiny????

I think not. Destiny should have been me putting him in jail had the people
around me been less proud. I am putting the SOB away for more time now.
Statute of limitations to me is my destiny.

Sick just sick..........


LAURA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/2003 7:44:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, HMSL2@...
writes: SANDRA DID NOT WRITE THIS... IM NOT SURE WHY IT PULLED HER NAME BUT IT
IS AN ERROR. LAURA
In a message dated 9/22/2003 2:24:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< There would be no point in locking up child molesters, for
example, if the molester and the child had already CHOSEN in advance
whether or not the molestation was going to take place. >>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

TreeGoddess

HMSL2@... wrote:

>In a message dated 9/22/2003 2:24:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>SandraDodd@... writes:
><< There would be no point in locking up child molesters, for
>example, if the molester and the child had already CHOSEN in advance
>whether or not the molestation was going to take place. >>
>WHAT????????????
>When I was molested at 13 it was my destiny and he should not have been
>locked up? Im surprised at this statement. If this ever happened to your child you
>would NOT be speaking this crap
>
>
Laura, this was taken *entirely* out of context. You should really go
back and read what Sandra was replying to, honey, because she does NOT
share this line of thinking.

pam sorooshian

It was a quote from one of my posts, but I wasn't saying I believe it.
Quite the opposite.

My point was that if someone REALLY believed that individuals had,
before this lifetime, chosen to be molested - in fact had arranged it
with their molester - that there would be no reason to jail a molester.
If it was supposed to happen it would happen - jailing wouldn't prevent
anything. And, according to the same beliefs, we're supposed to
recognize that the poor molester was doing the molested person a favor
by carrying out this horrendous act so that the molested person could
learn whatever lesson they were supposed to learn.

I wasn't promoting it - I was saying that it would be dangerous if too
many people believed it. It is the most extreme version of "blame the
victim" I've ever heard.

-pam

On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 04:47 PM, HMSL2@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/22/2003 7:44:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> HMSL2@...
> writes: SANDRA DID NOT WRITE THIS... IM NOT SURE WHY IT PULLED HER
> NAME BUT IT
> IS AN ERROR. LAURA
> In a message dated 9/22/2003 2:24:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:
> << There would be no point in locking up child molesters, for
> example, if the molester and the child had already CHOSEN in advance
> whether or not the molestation was going to take place. >>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/03 5:44:55 PM, HMSL2@... writes:

<< When I was molested at 13 it was my destiny and he should not have been
locked up? Im surprised at this statement. >>

Yeah.
We're trying to explain WHY people were questioning the philosophy that said
that.

No sense getting grumpy now. The person who explained that her beliefs
included that has left the list, but why didn't you get angry when SHE said it?

There are just too many people here who chose NOT to read all that stuff as
it unfolded and now are one after another complaining about the aftermath
instead of having read it all as it happened.

<< If this ever happened to your child you
would NOT be speaking this crap.>>

I was NOT "speaking that crap," I was explaining why we weren't being
accepting of the "beliefs" of the person who explained that she believed that all
those decisions were made before people are born.

Yes, I think it was crap.

<<She is now a mess you think that is destiny????

<<I think not.>>

No, I don't, but someone on this list did, and then others (blindly,
generally) defended her.

Sandra

JenV72

I just needed to add this... I don't think anyone was ever saying
that we should not have compassion for other people. Using
different wording, I feel like what was meant is that everything
happens for a reason. Everything happens in order for each of us to
reach enlightenment. It may feel great or it may feel bad, but it
happened to teach us something we needed to know, to work though, to
experience in order to reach enlightenment and to be truely happy.
So again, I don't believe it was ever meant that we should not
care what happens to people, or that we should say "well it's her
fault such and such happened because she decided it would before she
came to this earth."
It is really hard to have a conversation like this over email.
No one can really understand what someone else is saying because you
can't see the person, you can't hear his/her tone of voice (infact
we tend to add a tone ouselves wether or not it's valid) etc....
Anyway, that's how I feel, thanks
-Jennifer V

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/03 8:27:46 PM, jvaitkus@... writes:

<< I don't think anyone was ever saying

that we should not have compassion for other people. >>

"I don't have to feel bad for her" I believe was the quote.

<< So again, I don't believe it was ever meant that we should not

care what happens to people, or that we should say "well it's her

fault such and such happened because she decided it would before she

came to this earth.">>

It was clearly stated.
Why are people commenting who didn't read the whole thread?

<<No one can really understand what someone else is saying because you

can't see the person, >>

Should we close the list then?

The tool we have is the written word. People should use it as clearly as
they can and be willing to clarify and defend statements they make. That's how
it works, and it's the only way it can work.

Sandra

JenV72

>
> It was clearly stated.
> Why are people commenting who didn't read the whole thread?

I read the whole thread...but an interesting question none the less.



> <<No one can really understand what someone else is saying because
you
>
> can't see the person, >>
>
> Should we close the list then?

Considering this is an unschooling list and not for specific
spiritual beliefs, I'd say no. Interesting that you thought that was
what I was getting at.

> The tool we have is the written word. People should use it as
clearly as
> they can and be willing to clarify and defend statements they
make. That's how
> it works, and it's the only way it can work.

Yes, and even so there are still misunderstandings. I don't think
Judie ever really explained herself fully. Most of this thread
consisted of reactions to one statement which was most likely not
the extent of her belief.

-Jennifer V

Betsy

<<No one can really understand what someone else is saying because you
can't see the person, >>


As a general statement about emotional tone on email lists, it is sure
enough true.

It isn't very often possible to know from people's general comments if
they believe in predestination in a stern way or in a gentle,
compassionate way. I think we're teetering on the brink of the big
chasm between "how it sounds" and "how it sounds inside the brain of the
person that wrote it."

Not really intending to argue here. Just seeing some truth in the one
sentence quoted above.

It's been so hot here that we haven't wanted to leave the house, except
early in the morning, and we're all getting kind of crabby. Tomorrow
will be more exciting because I'm going to the dentist. (oh, joy) <g>

Betsy

PS My 2 cents on predestination: life is harsh enough that I find
believing that life is harsh on purpose to teach us lessons WAY too
harsh to accept. Even though I've seen how terrible experiences can
build character, I don't recommend that path to anyone that I'm fond of.

PPS I've pretty much read the whole thread, except the ends of some
longer posts that wore me out.

pam sorooshian

On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 07:25 PM, JenV72 wrote:

> So again, I don't believe it was ever meant that we should not
> care what happens to people, or that we should say "well it's her
> fault such and such happened because she decided it would before she
> came to this earth."


Quote: "Whatever lesson they had to learn from it, they chose it. I
don't have to feel bad about what they are experiencing. "

-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/03 09:27:34 PM Central Daylight Time,
jvaitkus@... writes:
I just needed to add this... I don't think anyone was ever saying
that we should not have compassion for other people. Using
different wording, I feel like what was meant is that everything
happens for a reason. Everything happens in order for each of us to
reach enlightenment. It may feel great or it may feel bad, but it
happened to teach us something we needed to know, to work though, to
experience in order to reach enlightenment and to be truely happy.
Maybe YOU feel this way, and I am sure others believe/feel this way too.
Regardless, the original poster said in one of her many posts, and I quote;

"Whatever lesson they had to learn from it, they chose it. I don't have to
feel bad about what they are experiencing." From Judie, the original poster of
this comment. Who after many direct questions, couldn't or wouldn't explain
herself or her ideals more clearly. And you can say that you think she may have
meant this in a different way, but we will truly never know one way or the
other. All the rest of us can do is accept that what she said is what she meant.
It is faulty logic to say she might have meant something more gentle, when she
repeatedly said that was exactly what she wanted to say and never clarified
it with better language. Arguing the point again and again amongst ourselves is
a moot point, shaming others for posting their opinions of her posts won't
get us further either. She is gone and we can't interpret what she might have
wanted to say because all we have to go on is what she did say.

I really must repeat what better people have said before me. Commenting on
one snip in a post out of hundreds isn't realistic. Maybe reading the whole
thread would help. And that could be hard to do at this point because subject
lines have changed, the original poster has left. Without explaining her beliefs
more clearly, I doubt you or anyone could say, I don't think she meant this or
that.

So again, I don't believe it was ever meant that we should not
care what happens to people, or that we should say "well it's her
fault such and such happened because she decided it would before she
came to this earth."
It is really hard to have a conversation like this over email.
No one can really understand what someone else is saying because you
can't see the person, you can't hear his/her tone of voice (infact
we tend to add a tone ouselves wether or not it's valid) etc....
Anyway, that's how I feel, thanks
-Jennifer V
No, it isn't hard to have a conversation like this in email, what is hard is
when people don't say what they mean. Assigning a tone of voice isn't a good
excuse either. One of the tenants of this list is to be careful of what you
write so that people can take what you have written at face value. At the risk of
repeating others, another guideline is that if you don't want a belief
questioned then don't hold it out to the group. This is a discussion group, not a
support group. I hate the subject line of this thread, unschooling isn't a form
of homeschooling, unschooling is beyond that, so when someone questions
whether something is unschooling or not then I realize that someone does not grasp
unschooling fully. I am not saying that person is you. I am just making a
general observation. I've seen this heading before. Unfortunately, I am sure I will
see it again.

~Nancy

Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Elbert Hubbard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/03 6:52:59 PM Central Daylight Time, HMSL2@...
writes:
> <<There would be no point in locking up child molesters, for
> example, if the molester and the child had already CHOSEN in advance
> whether or not the molestation was going to take place. >>
> WHAT????????????
> When I was molested at 13 it was my destiny and he should not have been
> locked up? Im surprised at this statement. If this ever happened to your
> child you
> would NOT be speaking this crap. Try telling DHS "oh my little girl/boy it
> 'twas his/her destiny to be raped you see" Your destiny would bee the loss
> of
> your child.
>
> MY molester just went to jail for molesting his own daughter over the past
> 10
> years. She is now a mess you think that is destiny????
>
> I think not. Destiny should have been me putting him in jail had the people
> around me been less proud. I am putting the SOB away for more time now.
> Statute of limitations to me is my destiny.
>
> Sick just sick..........
>
>
> LAURA


Sweetie, that quote above was a comment that someone made about why this
belief/idea does not make sense to them, and why. I am sorry that we chose to use
an example that applies to your personal life.....I'm sorry.

~Aimee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alyce - VintageGuitarPro.com

Hey there Pam. First let me say to this... UGH... Secondly though... If
we wanted to believe this was all specifically spelled out before we got
here... And I'm not saying it was (specifically being the operative -
there are myriad ways to learn whatever it is we're here to learn)...
But if it were, wouldn't the jailing of the molester be part of the
whole grand plan as well? They should not be let go! NO! What would
be the value of a lesson learned by a molester who goes free? Not as
valuable a lesson as that learned by a molester who is penalized I
should think.

Let me just close by saying - so there's no question in anyone's mind -
I in no way support letting the bad guy go because the good guy might
learn something from it... That's crap. If people believe that it was
all arranged beforehand for the purpose of a lesson, they would likely
further believe the molester has a lesson coming too (possibly in the
form of several years of torture from his fellow inmates... Sorry this
gets me riled)... Else the two would not have been paired.

I hope I was clear and non-confrontational... I do so hate getting beat
up. Lol.

~Alyce

---------
From: pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Beliefs is this unschooling?

It was a quote from one of my posts, but I wasn't saying I believe it.
Quite the opposite.

My point was that if someone REALLY believed that individuals had,
before this lifetime, chosen to be molested - in fact had arranged it
with their molester - that there would be no reason to jail a molester.

If it was supposed to happen it would happen - jailing wouldn't prevent

anything. And, according to the same beliefs, we're supposed to
recognize that the poor molester was doing the molested person a favor
by carrying out this horrendous act so that the molested person could
learn whatever lesson they were supposed to learn.

I wasn't promoting it - I was saying that it would be dangerous if too
many people believed it. It is the most extreme version of "blame the
victim" I've ever heard.

-pam

[email protected]

pamsoroosh@... writes:
> I wasn't promoting it - I was saying that it would be dangerous if too
> many people believed it. It is the most extreme version of "blame the
> victim" I've ever heard.
>
> -pam

That's the problem that most people have with it as well, and I understand
that. In it's simplest version that's exactly what it sounds like. That's why
I wasn't surprised when Judie did not get a warm reception about her beliefs.
It seemed to me that she may have had a incomplete understanding at the time
and wasn't comfortable answering about that aspect. Sometimes I am as well.

It's incredibly difficult to understand and explain that blaming the victim
is not at all what I am implying when I tell someone that maybe something was
meant to be. I am only thinking that when something has already happened and
the person is trying to move on from, to heal from, to recover from, that
trauma, at a certain point in their life or process, that idea MAY help them. This
is not a theory for me, but personal experience. It is a complicated, painful
experience, to learn a life lesson from something they most definitely DID
NOT WANT to happen to them.

But maybe, if that person looks back and sees the progression of their lives
from that moment, sees the path they have taken and that they like where they
are now, they may look back and see that if all that good came from the bad,
would they undo the trauma if they could? Would they remove all they learned
from that experience from their life? In my own experience I could honestly
say, no, I wouldn't, and part of that acceptance is that maybe it was meant to
be that way.

Our spiritual selves are different in many ways then our physical selves. We
may choose things on the spiritual plane that we would NEVER AGREE TO if we
were in a body at the time. The spiritual self wants to learn, and does what it
needs to do. It knows that it will be hard on the physical self. It chooses
it anyway. I think that this idea may be what most people have a hard time
accepting or understanding or agreeing with, and without that, the rest makes no
sense.

This applies to unschooling because we might not know what's going to happen
in our lives, but we can learn as we live, to do our best when the worst comes
along. My son is living life and learning about himself, is following his
own path with courage and confidence. That might enable him to live his
purpose, his path, his destiny, whatever you want to call it, whatever he was born
to do. I feel that's my responsiblity to him, to love him and support him as
he learns about this world and how to live in it, in whatever way he sees fit.
Something inside him knows much better what's good for him and what is not,
than I do. I have learned to trust that as much as I can.

~Aimee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Tuesday, September 23, 2003, at 08:50 AM, AimeeL73@... wrote:

> This applies to unschooling because we might not know what's going to
> happen
> in our lives, but we can learn as we live, to do our best when the
> worst comes
> along. My son is living life and learning about himself, is
> following his
> own path with courage and confidence. That might enable him to live
> his
> purpose, his path, his destiny, whatever you want to call it, whatever
> he was born
> to do.

Its just sort of like there is a right path for him, and with the
right support from his parents and others around him, he might be
enabled to tread that right path?

It doesn't sound like predestination to me, particularly not like a
predestined path that he's chosen already and contracted with everyone
else who would need to carry out their part to make it all happen
exactly as it is supposed to. It sounds like hopefulness that he'll
live a life that is meaningful to him, regardless of what life throws
at him, and awareness that how he is parented matters in that process.

I'd say there are many, infinitely many, possible paths that are open
to him and that this is more like a joint interactive story - a sort of
"choose your own adventure" life - that our life's path is being
created by how we respond to the tests and difficulties (and joys and
triumphs and everything else) along the way AND how other people are
responding in their own lives.

-pam

pam sorooshian

On Tuesday, September 23, 2003, at 08:35 AM, Alyce -
VintageGuitarPro.com wrote:

> Hey there Pam.

Hi!!! Welcome!

> First let me say to this... UGH... Secondly though... If
> we wanted to believe this was all specifically spelled out before we
> got
> here... And I'm not saying it was (specifically being the operative -
> there are myriad ways to learn whatever it is we're here to learn)...
> But if it were, wouldn't the jailing of the molester be part of the
> whole grand plan as well? They should not be let go! NO! What would
> be the value of a lesson learned by a molester who goes free? Not as
> valuable a lesson as that learned by a molester who is penalized I
> should think.

Yeah - but, what if he was "supposed" to molest several others - what
if he'd contracted with them, too? If we jailed him, we'd prevent him
from doing that. But, no, if it was predestined, then the prosecutors
and judges and everybody else involved must have contracted in advance
too, either to jail him or not.

Okay - enough - this is kind of a sickening conversation and beyond
giving me a headache just trying to follow it, its getting too
depressing for me. UGH is right.

I liked this though: "there are myriad ways to learn whatever it is
we're here to learn" and I'd add that we seem well able to keep finding
ways to learn the lessons we need to learn, until we do learn them.

-pam