Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Public Nakedness
Judie C. Rall
> The question is whether there isn't ANY time or place that she wouldMost of the things in my lifestyle are things that DO make people
> forego insisting on her own "rights" in order to simply make someone
> else more comfortable.
uncomfortable. Unassisted childbirth, no immunizations, don't
believe in medical care of any kind except if I'm on the brink of
death, Unschooling, unhindered adolescence, childhood autonomy,
extended breastfeeding, family bed, psychic experiences, belief in
time travel and alternate realities, use of the zero-point field and
directed intention to "create your own reality".....this all goes
together, as a lifestyle, for me. It is all about unlimited personal
freedom and using the power God/nature gave us to change our lives
and the world. We live by two principles: don't cause harm, and
don't take the un-given.
If someone is uncomforable with some aspect of my lifestyle, that is
not bad. It isn't causing them harm to be uncomfortable. It's
causing them to look at something maybe they haven't looked at
before. It's causing them to consider things that are new to them.
Since I believe that before we come here, we make an agreement with
people to participate in certain events together, I believe that the
person who might see me naked agreed with me before we came here that
we should both participate in this event. Therefore, whatever
reaction they have, they chose to have that reaction long before we
actually had that experience together. Whatever lesson they had to
learn from it, they chose it. I don't have to feel bad about what
they are experiencing. It's part of what has to happen to them for
them to choose to make their part of the world better by changing
their attitudes. If they don't, well, there's a lesson there too,
perhaps to be worked out in another lifetime.
Judie
Mercedes
Pam writes:
need a private location. . . . .
The following happened at a German-American women's group get-
together when we lived in Germany in the late 80's:
American woman(disbelievingly): My family was at a local park last
weekend. A man canoed up to the river's edge, got out of his canoe,
walked to his car, took off his clothes, toweled off, got dressed and
drove away! Right in the PARKING LOT!!!
German woman(very matter-of-fact): What was he supposed to do? Drive
home wet?
Marjorie writes:
Mercedes
>>>>Okay - how about a big family get-together in a private location?Have it in Germany (or any northern European country) - wouldn't even
>>>>Not someplace that the police would get involved.
need a private location. . . . .
The following happened at a German-American women's group get-
together when we lived in Germany in the late 80's:
American woman(disbelievingly): My family was at a local park last
weekend. A man canoed up to the river's edge, got out of his canoe,
walked to his car, took off his clothes, toweled off, got dressed and
drove away! Right in the PARKING LOT!!!
German woman(very matter-of-fact): What was he supposed to do? Drive
home wet?
Marjorie writes:
>>>>At seven he tried to change from clothes to his swimming suit atHe'd fit right in - a European male at heart!
>>>>the public pool. Right out in the grass by the pool. He didn't
>>>>understand why I could change his three-year-old sister there but
>>>>he had to go into a changing room in the bathroom.
Mercedes
pam sorooshian
On Friday, September 19, 2003, at 10:12 AM, Mercedes wrote:
But - i think my point is being avoided.
The question is whether there isn't ANY time or place that she would
forego insisting on her own "rights" in order to simply make someone
else more comfortable.
If the situation is one, as in northern Europe or the beaches of Spain
or a nude beach in California, where nudity is already acceptable, then
that is not an example I'm inquiring about.
My mom took pictures of some people climbing cliffs in Norway. Pictures
are shot from a bit of a distance - she claims she didn't notice until
she got much closer that the people were nude. Cool pictures. Rock
climbing nude seems likely to be a bit painful, but I think it is
pretty obvious that in far northern climes, it makes sense to bare as
much skin to the sun as possible, when you can.
-pam
> Pam writes:Yeah yeah. I know. Been there, done that <BEG>.
>>>>> Okay - how about a big family get-together in a private location?
>>>>> Not someplace that the police would get involved.
>
>
> Have it in Germany (or any northern European country) - wouldn't even
> need a private location. . . . .
But - i think my point is being avoided.
The question is whether there isn't ANY time or place that she would
forego insisting on her own "rights" in order to simply make someone
else more comfortable.
If the situation is one, as in northern Europe or the beaches of Spain
or a nude beach in California, where nudity is already acceptable, then
that is not an example I'm inquiring about.
My mom took pictures of some people climbing cliffs in Norway. Pictures
are shot from a bit of a distance - she claims she didn't notice until
she got much closer that the people were nude. Cool pictures. Rock
climbing nude seems likely to be a bit painful, but I think it is
pretty obvious that in far northern climes, it makes sense to bare as
much skin to the sun as possible, when you can.
-pam
Judie C. Rall
OK, I am about to leave this list, but before I go, I'd like to say
something.
Unschooling is about letting our children make their own choices,
choose their own beliefs.
Apparently that privilege does not extend to adults on this list.
We all create our own reality. Those that believe in a heaven and a
hell create that for themselves. When they die, that is what they
will get. And they will believe for all time that they were right,
and I was wrong, because their experience will tell them so.
I create for myself a different reality. Many people who have passed
over have come back to tell us of this reality. Whether you believe
that or not is up to you, but it is evidence to me. Many people have
had past life experiences that have been documented with hard facts.
So, I don't care which one you believe, you have a right to believe
either one or neither one. But just because you don't believe in my
reality doesn't mean it is invalid.
I have my own unschooling group now, one where new ideas are
welcomed, as well as a new spiritualtiy group. Anyone is welcome to
join them if they want.
Non-institutional, Unhindered Personal Spirituality
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/NUPS.html
The New School
http://www.topica.com/lists/UnhinderedLearning/prefs/info.html
Goodbye.
Judie
something.
Unschooling is about letting our children make their own choices,
choose their own beliefs.
Apparently that privilege does not extend to adults on this list.
We all create our own reality. Those that believe in a heaven and a
hell create that for themselves. When they die, that is what they
will get. And they will believe for all time that they were right,
and I was wrong, because their experience will tell them so.
I create for myself a different reality. Many people who have passed
over have come back to tell us of this reality. Whether you believe
that or not is up to you, but it is evidence to me. Many people have
had past life experiences that have been documented with hard facts.
So, I don't care which one you believe, you have a right to believe
either one or neither one. But just because you don't believe in my
reality doesn't mean it is invalid.
I have my own unschooling group now, one where new ideas are
welcomed, as well as a new spiritualtiy group. Anyone is welcome to
join them if they want.
Non-institutional, Unhindered Personal Spirituality
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/NUPS.html
The New School
http://www.topica.com/lists/UnhinderedLearning/prefs/info.html
Goodbye.
Judie
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/19/03 1:00:40 PM, adonai@... writes:
<< Since I believe that before we come here, we make an agreement with
people to participate in certain events together, I believe that the
person who might see me naked agreed with me before we came here that
we should both participate in this event. >>
So unborn people have free will but living breathing people are just acting
through a play decided before birth?
With a screenname like "Adonai," with a history of using ABeka and having
kids in Christian schools, how did you come so hard and fast to beliefs so
bizarrely different?
<<Therefore, whatever
reaction they have, they chose to have that reaction long before we
actually had that experience together. Whatever lesson they had to
learn from it, they chose it. I don't have to feel bad about what
they are experiencing. >>
THIS IS THE BIG ONE:
" I don't have to feel bad about what
they are experiencing. "
That's why I really don't like the "this was all decided" theory (and where
it came from, I have NO idea, but it's recent and it's harmful).
It justifies abuse.
If you abuse your own children, you don't have to feel bad about what they
are experiencing.
If your neighbor comes to you in fright in the middle of the night because
her husband is after her with a knife or a gun, you can refuse to let her in
because she chose that life, and you don't have to feel bad about what she's
experiencing.
Really, where does that belief/justification come from?
Who is promulgating it?
<<It's part of what has to happen to them for
them to choose to make their part of the world better by changing
their attitudes. If they don't, well, there's a lesson there too,
perhaps to be worked out in another lifetime.
the way we live while we ARE here (as opposed to deals we allegedly make with
other dead people before we go back onstage) doesn't have any historical or
moral validity as far as I know or can imagine.
Sandra
<< Since I believe that before we come here, we make an agreement with
people to participate in certain events together, I believe that the
person who might see me naked agreed with me before we came here that
we should both participate in this event. >>
So unborn people have free will but living breathing people are just acting
through a play decided before birth?
With a screenname like "Adonai," with a history of using ABeka and having
kids in Christian schools, how did you come so hard and fast to beliefs so
bizarrely different?
<<Therefore, whatever
reaction they have, they chose to have that reaction long before we
actually had that experience together. Whatever lesson they had to
learn from it, they chose it. I don't have to feel bad about what
they are experiencing. >>
THIS IS THE BIG ONE:
" I don't have to feel bad about what
they are experiencing. "
That's why I really don't like the "this was all decided" theory (and where
it came from, I have NO idea, but it's recent and it's harmful).
It justifies abuse.
If you abuse your own children, you don't have to feel bad about what they
are experiencing.
If your neighbor comes to you in fright in the middle of the night because
her husband is after her with a knife or a gun, you can refuse to let her in
because she chose that life, and you don't have to feel bad about what she's
experiencing.
Really, where does that belief/justification come from?
Who is promulgating it?
<<It's part of what has to happen to them for
them to choose to make their part of the world better by changing
their attitudes. If they don't, well, there's a lesson there too,
perhaps to be worked out in another lifetime.
>>"Other lifetime" belief is traditional in many cultures, but the idea that
the way we live while we ARE here (as opposed to deals we allegedly make with
other dead people before we go back onstage) doesn't have any historical or
moral validity as far as I know or can imagine.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/19/03 12:14:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
foundation or simply because you "disagree" with it? I ask because I am
somewhat shocked that you don't realize that there is both historical and moral
validity to this belief system. While one may not agree with the premise of such
a system, to state that it lacks any historic premise is not only an invalid
statement, but shows complete ignorance of belief systems shared by many. The
fact that you seem to be stating there is lack of evidence for such a system to
exist, as opposed to asking for sources or simply stating you disagree, seems
to make it read as though your statements are factual when in actuality they
are opinion. What about her beliefs makes you so uncomfortable as to try to
call it bizarre? If she has moved on a spiritual path from christianity or
anything else to where she is now, what about that bothers you so as to continually
argue its existance? If it exists for her and her alone in the entire
Universe, it is valid because it exists. Validity does not require a congregational
following, it doesn't even require two parties to agree. It simply requires
that it be based on evidence, in which case, what is evidenciary to her, may not
be so for you. Either way the belief is still valid.
Sorry Sandra, but your lack of knowledge in her belief system (which happens
to be encompassed by many Earth religions by the way, for many millenia)
doesn't negate it's existance. It simply means you may not understand it, like it,
agree with it or wish to learn about it.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> "Other lifetime" belief is traditional in many cultures, but the idea thatAre you truly and seriously stating this because you really believe it has no
> the way we live while we ARE here (as opposed to deals we allegedly make
> with
> other dead people before we go back onstage) doesn't have any historical or
> moral validity as far as I know or can imagine.
>
> Sandra
>
foundation or simply because you "disagree" with it? I ask because I am
somewhat shocked that you don't realize that there is both historical and moral
validity to this belief system. While one may not agree with the premise of such
a system, to state that it lacks any historic premise is not only an invalid
statement, but shows complete ignorance of belief systems shared by many. The
fact that you seem to be stating there is lack of evidence for such a system to
exist, as opposed to asking for sources or simply stating you disagree, seems
to make it read as though your statements are factual when in actuality they
are opinion. What about her beliefs makes you so uncomfortable as to try to
call it bizarre? If she has moved on a spiritual path from christianity or
anything else to where she is now, what about that bothers you so as to continually
argue its existance? If it exists for her and her alone in the entire
Universe, it is valid because it exists. Validity does not require a congregational
following, it doesn't even require two parties to agree. It simply requires
that it be based on evidence, in which case, what is evidenciary to her, may not
be so for you. Either way the belief is still valid.
Sorry Sandra, but your lack of knowledge in her belief system (which happens
to be encompassed by many Earth religions by the way, for many millenia)
doesn't negate it's existance. It simply means you may not understand it, like it,
agree with it or wish to learn about it.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/19/2003 2:52:28 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
RJHill241@... writes:
If it exists for her and her alone in the entire
Universe, it is valid because it exists. Validity does not require a
congregational
following, it doesn't even require two parties to agree.
"It" what is valid!?
If someone believes people decide be abused or abusors before they're born,
and she's the only one who believes it there is validity?
If a dozen believe it, does THAT make it true?
If millions believe in reincarnation, does that make it true?
If so, it will be interesting as millions also believe in one life leading to
heaven or hell.
"Validity" is more than someone thinking something might be so.
-=-Sorry Sandra, but your lack of knowledge in her belief system (which
happens
to be encompassed by many Earth religions by the way, for many millenia)
doesn't negate it's existance.-=-
"Earth religions" meaning what? Religions on earth as opposed to...
Or do you mean "Neo Pagan" as "Earth"? Or do you mean tree or rock based
religions as opposed to sky or sun based religions?
What "many millenia" belief says people choose the details of their lives
before birth?
-=-Are you truly and seriously stating this because you really believe it has
no
foundation or simply because you "disagree" with it? I ask because I am
somewhat shocked that you don't realize that there is both historical and
moral
validity to this belief system. -=-
I don't believe there is historical validity.
I don't believe anyone can even BEGIN to outline a moral validity to anything
that says a person doesn't have to feel at all bad about the suffering of
others.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RJHill241@... writes:
If it exists for her and her alone in the entire
Universe, it is valid because it exists. Validity does not require a
congregational
following, it doesn't even require two parties to agree.
"It" what is valid!?
If someone believes people decide be abused or abusors before they're born,
and she's the only one who believes it there is validity?
If a dozen believe it, does THAT make it true?
If millions believe in reincarnation, does that make it true?
If so, it will be interesting as millions also believe in one life leading to
heaven or hell.
"Validity" is more than someone thinking something might be so.
-=-Sorry Sandra, but your lack of knowledge in her belief system (which
happens
to be encompassed by many Earth religions by the way, for many millenia)
doesn't negate it's existance.-=-
"Earth religions" meaning what? Religions on earth as opposed to...
Or do you mean "Neo Pagan" as "Earth"? Or do you mean tree or rock based
religions as opposed to sky or sun based religions?
What "many millenia" belief says people choose the details of their lives
before birth?
-=-Are you truly and seriously stating this because you really believe it has
no
foundation or simply because you "disagree" with it? I ask because I am
somewhat shocked that you don't realize that there is both historical and
moral
validity to this belief system. -=-
I don't believe there is historical validity.
I don't believe anyone can even BEGIN to outline a moral validity to anything
that says a person doesn't have to feel at all bad about the suffering of
others.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
O.K. here we go...;-)
Sandra wrote:
"It" what is valid!?
***Validity does not require even two parties to agree in order to exist.
Sandra wrote:
If someone believes people decide be abused or abusors before they're born,
and she's the only one who believes it there is validity?
If a dozen believe it, does THAT make it true?
If millions believe in reincarnation, does that make it true?
*** Yes, Yes and Yes, it is true to them. Where is the confusion?
Sandra wrote:
If so, it will be interesting as millions also believe in one life leading to
heaven or hell.
*** Yes, it will be interesting to them.
Sandra wrote:
"Validity" is more than someone thinking something might be so.
*** Validity is based on fact or (keyword being OR) evidence. Therefore, just
because you have not seen such evidence or perhaps do not accept what others
may identify as evidence, that in no way makes something invalid in its
existence, it just makes it invalid to you.
Sandra wrote:
"Earth religions" meaning what? Religions on earth as opposed to...
*** Yes.
Sandra wrote:
Or do you mean "Neo Pagan" as "Earth"? Or do you mean tree or rock based
religions as opposed to sky or sun based religions?
*** Nope, I meant what I wrote, religions on Earth. So I guess that would
also include those you mentioned.
Sandra wrote:
What "many millenia" belief says people choose the details of their lives
before birth?
***While I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of all of the following,
there are sects in each that have recognized predestination: Akashics,
Gnosticism, Shamanism, Paganism, Bhuddism, Confuscism, Hinduism, Aboriginal
Polytheistics, Tribal Religions and who knows how many pre-historic belief systems.
Even Judaism, Christianity and Islamic sects have writings supporting that "God"
has already planned all events (I am paraphrasing here, so please don't ask me
to look up any biblical/torah/quoran verses.)
Sandra wrote:
I don't believe there is historical validity.
I don't believe anyone can even BEGIN to outline a moral validity to anything
that says a person doesn't have to feel at all bad about the suffering of
others.
*** Your have your beliefs, just as Judie has hers, I have mine and everyone
else has theirs. Thankfully your beliefs and my beliefs don't determine what
everyone else believes.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra wrote:
"It" what is valid!?
***Validity does not require even two parties to agree in order to exist.
Sandra wrote:
If someone believes people decide be abused or abusors before they're born,
and she's the only one who believes it there is validity?
If a dozen believe it, does THAT make it true?
If millions believe in reincarnation, does that make it true?
*** Yes, Yes and Yes, it is true to them. Where is the confusion?
Sandra wrote:
If so, it will be interesting as millions also believe in one life leading to
heaven or hell.
*** Yes, it will be interesting to them.
Sandra wrote:
"Validity" is more than someone thinking something might be so.
*** Validity is based on fact or (keyword being OR) evidence. Therefore, just
because you have not seen such evidence or perhaps do not accept what others
may identify as evidence, that in no way makes something invalid in its
existence, it just makes it invalid to you.
Sandra wrote:
"Earth religions" meaning what? Religions on earth as opposed to...
*** Yes.
Sandra wrote:
Or do you mean "Neo Pagan" as "Earth"? Or do you mean tree or rock based
religions as opposed to sky or sun based religions?
*** Nope, I meant what I wrote, religions on Earth. So I guess that would
also include those you mentioned.
Sandra wrote:
What "many millenia" belief says people choose the details of their lives
before birth?
***While I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of all of the following,
there are sects in each that have recognized predestination: Akashics,
Gnosticism, Shamanism, Paganism, Bhuddism, Confuscism, Hinduism, Aboriginal
Polytheistics, Tribal Religions and who knows how many pre-historic belief systems.
Even Judaism, Christianity and Islamic sects have writings supporting that "God"
has already planned all events (I am paraphrasing here, so please don't ask me
to look up any biblical/torah/quoran verses.)
Sandra wrote:
I don't believe there is historical validity.
I don't believe anyone can even BEGIN to outline a moral validity to anything
that says a person doesn't have to feel at all bad about the suffering of
others.
*** Your have your beliefs, just as Judie has hers, I have mine and everyone
else has theirs. Thankfully your beliefs and my beliefs don't determine what
everyone else believes.
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn
Judie C. Rall wrote:
about letting adults make their own choices. But those choices need to
be made on FACTS and REAL information, not propaganda put out by a
society who is screwed up and companies who have money, and not the best
interest of consumers, on their minds.
I challenge anyone to go read EVERYTHING they can, pro, con, and
everything they can find in the middle, about breastfeeding and then
come back and say "ok, that artificial baby milk is still what's best
for MY child."
Unschooling to me is also about free discussion. My children and I can
talk about anything, and often disagree. I don't personally care what
opinion they have about a topic, but they better be able to back up
their decisions with facts and real information. Lexie wants a tatoo,
great, I'll sign permission, but she needs to really research the issue
and and the long term consequences, and how to have one safely, etc.
I can handle just about any decision from a person, as long as the
decision is an informed one.
Joylyn
> OK, I am about to leave this list, but before I go, I'd like to sayUnschooling is about letting children make their own choices. It's also
> something.
>
> Unschooling is about letting our children make their own choices,
> choose their own beliefs.
>
> Apparently that privilege does not extend to adults on this list.
about letting adults make their own choices. But those choices need to
be made on FACTS and REAL information, not propaganda put out by a
society who is screwed up and companies who have money, and not the best
interest of consumers, on their minds.
I challenge anyone to go read EVERYTHING they can, pro, con, and
everything they can find in the middle, about breastfeeding and then
come back and say "ok, that artificial baby milk is still what's best
for MY child."
Unschooling to me is also about free discussion. My children and I can
talk about anything, and often disagree. I don't personally care what
opinion they have about a topic, but they better be able to back up
their decisions with facts and real information. Lexie wants a tatoo,
great, I'll sign permission, but she needs to really research the issue
and and the long term consequences, and how to have one safely, etc.
I can handle just about any decision from a person, as long as the
decision is an informed one.
Joylyn
Fetteroll
on 9/19/03 7:19 PM, RJHill241@... at RJHill241@... wrote:
some divine being).
Judie's belief is that people are choosing before being born the experiences
they'll have on Earth.
I've never heard of that before in any traditional religions I'm familiar
with.
know or can imagine." She's not saying what you think she's saying.
The way you're using "valididity" and "fact" and "evidence" are the way
they're used in scientific reasoning. They have precise definitions because
science needs to be cautious about what it stamps as "fact" and "evidence".
But spiritual beliefs are beyond the realm of science. Why be defensive that
words can't be applied to something they aren't intended to apply to.
Joyce
> there are sects in each that have recognized predestinationPredestination is the belief that ones destiny is predetermined by God (or
some divine being).
Judie's belief is that people are choosing before being born the experiences
they'll have on Earth.
I've never heard of that before in any traditional religions I'm familiar
with.
> Validity is based on fact or (keyword being OR) evidence.Sandra said it "doesn't have any historical or moral validity as far as I
know or can imagine." She's not saying what you think she's saying.
The way you're using "valididity" and "fact" and "evidence" are the way
they're used in scientific reasoning. They have precise definitions because
science needs to be cautious about what it stamps as "fact" and "evidence".
But spiritual beliefs are beyond the realm of science. Why be defensive that
words can't be applied to something they aren't intended to apply to.
Joyce
Dawn Blum
I totally agree Judie! Don't let a few closed minded people stop you from
living your life anyway you want!
Dawn
-----Original Message-----
From: joylyn [mailto:joylyn@...]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 8:41 PM
To: [email protected]; Judie C. Rall
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Public Nakedness
Judie C. Rall wrote:
about letting adults make their own choices. But those choices need to
be made on FACTS and REAL information, not propaganda put out by a
society who is screwed up and companies who have money, and not the best
interest of consumers, on their minds.
I challenge anyone to go read EVERYTHING they can, pro, con, and
everything they can find in the middle, about breastfeeding and then
come back and say "ok, that artificial baby milk is still what's best
for MY child."
Unschooling to me is also about free discussion. My children and I can
talk about anything, and often disagree. I don't personally care what
opinion they have about a topic, but they better be able to back up
their decisions with facts and real information. Lexie wants a tatoo,
great, I'll sign permission, but she needs to really research the issue
and and the long term consequences, and how to have one safely, etc.
I can handle just about any decision from a person, as long as the
decision is an informed one.
Joylyn
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living your life anyway you want!
Dawn
-----Original Message-----
From: joylyn [mailto:joylyn@...]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 8:41 PM
To: [email protected]; Judie C. Rall
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Public Nakedness
Judie C. Rall wrote:
> OK, I am about to leave this list, but before I go, I'd like to sayUnschooling is about letting children make their own choices. It's also
> something.
>
> Unschooling is about letting our children make their own choices,
> choose their own beliefs.
>
> Apparently that privilege does not extend to adults on this list.
about letting adults make their own choices. But those choices need to
be made on FACTS and REAL information, not propaganda put out by a
society who is screwed up and companies who have money, and not the best
interest of consumers, on their minds.
I challenge anyone to go read EVERYTHING they can, pro, con, and
everything they can find in the middle, about breastfeeding and then
come back and say "ok, that artificial baby milk is still what's best
for MY child."
Unschooling to me is also about free discussion. My children and I can
talk about anything, and often disagree. I don't personally care what
opinion they have about a topic, but they better be able to back up
their decisions with facts and real information. Lexie wants a tatoo,
great, I'll sign permission, but she needs to really research the issue
and and the long term consequences, and how to have one safely, etc.
I can handle just about any decision from a person, as long as the
decision is an informed one.
Joylyn
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pam sorooshian
>> OK, I am about to leave this list, but before I go, I'd like to sayThere is certainly something ironic about this post. According to
>> something.
>>
>> Unschooling is about letting our children make their own choices,
>> choose their own beliefs.
>>
>> Apparently that privilege does not extend to adults on this list.
Judie's stated beliefs, she chose exactly what was going to happen here
- that before this life we all agreed together, in fact, on this exact
outcome.
So according to her belief system, she DID choose it. But her parting
shot was an accusation that we're NOT letting her have the privilege of
making her own choices.
-pam
pam sorooshian
On Saturday, September 20, 2003, at 05:46 AM, Dawn Blum wrote:
own life the way she wants, then you don't agree with her stated belief
system which says that nobody CAN stop you from living the life you
want since you and they already chose everything that is going to
happen. Her own statement of her beliefs included:
"Whatever lesson they had to learn from it, they chose it. I don't
have to feel bad about what they are experiencing. "
-pam
> I totally agree Judie! Don't let a few closed minded people stop youIf you believe that closed-minded people COULD stop her from living her
> from
> living your life anyway you want!
own life the way she wants, then you don't agree with her stated belief
system which says that nobody CAN stop you from living the life you
want since you and they already chose everything that is going to
happen. Her own statement of her beliefs included:
"Whatever lesson they had to learn from it, they chose it. I don't
have to feel bad about what they are experiencing. "
-pam
Barbara Chase
>>> OK, I am about to leave this list, but before I go, I'd like to sayI've been deleting most of the messages posted to the list recently,
>>> something.
>>>
>>> Unschooling is about letting our children make their own choices,
>>> choose their own beliefs.
>>>
>>> Apparently that privilege does not extend to adults on this list.
>
>There is certainly something ironic about this post. According to
>Judie's stated beliefs, she chose exactly what was going to happen here
>- that before this life we all agreed together, in fact, on this exact
>outcome.
>
>So according to her belief system, she DID choose it. But her parting
>shot was an accusation that we're NOT letting her have the privilege of
>making her own choices.
because the subjects don't appear to relate to unschooling issues. I don't
have a problem with that, but I say this so you will all know that I
haven't been reading the main threads.
I did read this one, however (it was a new subject). And I find it very
sad to discover that someone feels they have to leave this list because
they have not been supported by it. Like I said, I haven't been reading
any of the posts... but from this one email I can say "who cares what
anyone else believes with respect to reincarnation or religion?" Why did
it have to become such a big deal so that Judie felt she had to leave? And
was the argument, criticism, judgement, or whatever it was really that
important to the rest of the folks who participated?
I'm really so sad that Judie felt so attacked about her own belief system
that she had to leave this list... and it's an unschooling support list at
that!
Namaste
--bc--
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pam sorooshian
Compassion? Feel bad for her?
I do too.
But she wouldn't if the situation was reversed - she'd just say that
you chose for it to happen because you wanted it to happen so you could
learn some lesson from it and that she shouldn't feel bad for you about
it.
I don't say that, myself, but I do say that when someone chooses (in
this here-and-now lifetime) to express beliefs on this list, that they
have been told in advance, in the list posting policies, that they will
be questioned and people should refrain from posting things they do not
want to respond about, if they're going to be upset by the questioning
of them.
-pam
I do too.
But she wouldn't if the situation was reversed - she'd just say that
you chose for it to happen because you wanted it to happen so you could
learn some lesson from it and that she shouldn't feel bad for you about
it.
I don't say that, myself, but I do say that when someone chooses (in
this here-and-now lifetime) to express beliefs on this list, that they
have been told in advance, in the list posting policies, that they will
be questioned and people should refrain from posting things they do not
want to respond about, if they're going to be upset by the questioning
of them.
-pam
On Saturday, September 20, 2003, at 11:41 AM, Barbara Chase wrote:
> I'm really so sad that Judie felt so attacked about her own belief
> system
> that she had to leave this list... and it's an unschooling support
> list at
> that!
Fetteroll
on 9/20/03 2:41 PM, Barbara Chase at barb@... wrote:
unschooling ideas. Here's the list description. The 4th paragraph defines
the purpose of the list pretty clearly I think.
longer form in case that makes the purpose of the list clearer for anyone:
> I'm really so sad that Judie felt so attacked about her own belief systemNo, it's not a support list. It's a discussion list for discussing
> that she had to leave this list... and it's an unschooling support list at
> that!
unschooling ideas. Here's the list description. The 4th paragraph defines
the purpose of the list pretty clearly I think.
> Unschooling is not a homeschool teaching method. It refers to a philosophy ofPam just posted the short form of the guidelines, but here it is in the
> natural learning as well as the lifestyle that results from living according
> to the principles of that philosophy.
>
> The most basic principle of unschooling is that children are born with an
> intrinsic urge to explore -- for a moment or a lifetime -- what intrigues
> them, as they seek to join the adult world in a personally satisfying way.
> Because of that urge, an unschooling child is free to choose the what, when,
> where and how of his/her own learning from mud puddles to video games and
> SpongeBob Squarepants to Shakespeare! And an unschooling parent sees his/her
> role, not as a teacher, but as a facilitator and companion in a child's
> exploration of the world.
>
> Unschooling is a mindful lifestyle which encompasses, at its core, an
> atmosphere of trust, freedom, joy and deep respect for who the child is. This
> cannot be lived on a part-time basis. Unschooling sometimes seems so intuitive
> that people feel they've been doing it all along, not realizing it has a name.
> Unschooling sometimes seems so counterintuitive that people struggle to
> understand it, and it can take years to fully accept its worth.
>
> The purpose of this list is to move out of our own comfort zones as we
> critically examine our beliefs, ideas, and viewpoints about learning, and seek
> a deeper understanding of unschooling and more respectful relationships with
> our children.
>
> Please read for at least a week or two, before posting, to get a feel for the
> list. New members are on moderation, to avoid spam and other disruptions.
> "List Posting Policies" can be found in the files area of this list or, along
> with other list information, at: <http://www.sandradodd.com/lists/info>.
>
> If you have questions, contact:
> [email protected].
> (This list is jointly owned by Joyce Fetteroll, Pam Sorooshian and Sandra
> Dodd.)
longer form in case that makes the purpose of the list clearer for anyone:
> UnschoolingDiscussion Posting PoliciesJoyce
>
> It is our sincere wish to provide a forum for those seeking to deepen their
> understanding of the unschooling philosophy. The primary purpose of this
> list is to encourage the critical examination of ideas, beliefs and
> viewpoints.
>
> Questioning of deeply-held ideas and beliefs can be very uncomfortable and
> sometimes responses to that process can stand in the way of people getting
> what they need out of the list.
>
> Therefore, we offer the following guidelines to help our members get the
> most from the list:
>
> 1. Read for at least a couple of weeks before posting yourself. Spend that
> time getting a "feel" for the list and its members. This will help you
> decide if this list is worth your time or whether some other list might be
> more useful to you in meeting your needs.
>
> 2 Expect your beliefs to be challenged. Welcome this as an opportunity to
> critically examine your own ideas.
>
> 3. When differences of opinion arise, stick to discussing ideas, not the
> person with whom you are disagreeing.
>
> 4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
> examination, don't post it to the list.
>
> 5. Before you hit "send," consider whether your post will contribute
> positively to the unschooling discussion.
>
> 6. Avoid using loaded terminology. For instance, "If you have no TV
> restrictions why don't your kids just watch TV all day?" will get you more
> useful responses than, "I don't see how your kids learn anything if all they
> ever do is sit around like zombies watching unlimited TV."
>
> 7. It is not useful to inform the list that you believe someone else is
> being rude or discourteous; please trust the rest of the list to recognize
> rudeness for themselves. Saying, "Jane was rude to me," just bogs down the
> list. It is also a waste of everyone's time when participants attempt to
> correct or improve other list members' manners. It never works and always
> disrupts the list. Avoid
> statements such as: "Jane, here is my suggestion of how you could write more
> nicely so people wouldn't think you are being rude."
>
> 8. Our brains automatically supply a "tone" to posts as we read. It can be
> helpful to imagine your best friend speaking the words you are reading, in
> the gentlest, most well-meaning tone you can imagine. It is unacceptable to
> attack the "tone" of the list or to make generalizations about it. "I've
> been on many other lists and this one is the rudest I've seen," would be
> unacceptable. Instead, attempt to create a positive, helpful tone with your
> own posts by setting the example you hope others will follow.
>
> 9. Envision every post and response as a dish at a potluck dinner. You won't
> love every dish at a potluck any more than you will love every poster's
> style of help. But a dish/post may be exactly what someone else needs. If
> you don't like a certain list member's offerings, skip them and
> leave them for others.
>
> 10. Read and write as clearly as you can. In casual conversation we often
> don't realize how much we rely on others to fill in the gist of our
> conversation based on what they expect us to say. But here, without body
> language or inflection, all we have to go on are your words and they should
> say what you mean. If you say, for example, you "never" do something, it
> should not mean "almost never."
>
>
> Our goal is to make the list as useful as possible for those seeking to
> deepen their understanding of the unschooling philosophy. To do that, all
> new list members are initially moderated to prevent spamming and catch posts
> that could disrupt the list. People will also be moderated if they disrupt
> the usefulness of the list. Potentially disruptive posts will be returned
> for revision.
>
> If you have questions, please write to:
> [email protected]
liza sabater
On Saturday, September 20, 2003, at 02:41 PM, Barbara Chase wrote:
I invite you to read through the archives of this list and to review
the ideas, as outlined in the "rules", that inspire the discussions on
this list. Pam has already pointed to the files section if you want to
read them.
It is the practice of many in this list to take with a grain of salt
and to question each and every one of the ideas and beliefs that have
brought them to the place of considering unschooling as an education
option for their children. Because, really, in the end, what you will
see is that unschooling is not an education option but a lifestyle
choice and that will have repercussions in the way you not only see and
think about the world but your daily practices.
The speaking in the list, or writing, will be questioned and challenged
by those who have been unschooling for a while (especially Sandra)
because it is only this media, your words, that people can "know" you.
Which is why the guidelines of the list say:
liza, nyc
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm really so sad that Judie felt so attacked about her own beliefBarbara.
> system
> that she had to leave this list... and it's an unschooling support
> list at
> that!
I invite you to read through the archives of this list and to review
the ideas, as outlined in the "rules", that inspire the discussions on
this list. Pam has already pointed to the files section if you want to
read them.
It is the practice of many in this list to take with a grain of salt
and to question each and every one of the ideas and beliefs that have
brought them to the place of considering unschooling as an education
option for their children. Because, really, in the end, what you will
see is that unschooling is not an education option but a lifestyle
choice and that will have repercussions in the way you not only see and
think about the world but your daily practices.
The speaking in the list, or writing, will be questioned and challenged
by those who have been unschooling for a while (especially Sandra)
because it is only this media, your words, that people can "know" you.
Which is why the guidelines of the list say:
> 4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up tobest,
> public examination, don't post it to the list.
liza, nyc
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza sabater
On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 04:57 PM, liza sabater wrote:
I should have also added, Tia L, Pam, Joyce, and others I cant think of
right now ... Combined they have like, what, a kazillion years of
unschooling their children and/or children's children? They are bound
to steer the discussions ... and that is a good thing.
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
http://typepadistas.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The speaking in the list, or writing, will be questioned and challengedThat sounded weird, no?
> by those who have been unschooling for a while (especially Sandra)
I should have also added, Tia L, Pam, Joyce, and others I cant think of
right now ... Combined they have like, what, a kazillion years of
unschooling their children and/or children's children? They are bound
to steer the discussions ... and that is a good thing.
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
http://typepadistas.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]