more clarifying-please!
Christine Kuglen
What an interesting exchange of ideas. Sandra, you are a bit mistaken....All of the examples you gave are people who should change because they are hurting other people(not to please others)! Breaking glass, pissing and defacating on public property, disrespectful teachers, muggers, drunk drivers, wife beaters are all behaviours that hurt others. A mother breastfeeding in public (which rarely ever gives more than a glimpse of a breast)is not injuring anyone and others can simply just vote with their necks(look the other way). In no way can these behaviors be compared.
Loving the dialogue, Christine
Sandra answered
<< There is no reason to be discreet, other than so somebody with 19th
century morals won't shocked. I live my life and I don't
change to please anybody. If someone is doing something I don't
like, I don't expect them to change for me either. People are who
they are, and they do what they do, and that's OK with me. Nobody
should need to change to please someone else. >>
This sounds good, like it would have a soaring soundtrack, but I don't think
it's honest.
I bet there are people you don't think should break their vodka bottles at
the playground and then piss on the swings. You probably would want them to
change, whether they're doing it while you're watching or when you're asleep.
They really should change to please other people.
There are teachers who are truly mean to kids. They probably shouldn't be
teaching anymore, but over they years they've just become coldhearted and
sadistic. Do you think they shouldn't change to please others?
Muggers?
Drunk drivers?
Wife beaters?
Rapists?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Loving the dialogue, Christine
Sandra answered
<< There is no reason to be discreet, other than so somebody with 19th
century morals won't shocked. I live my life and I don't
change to please anybody. If someone is doing something I don't
like, I don't expect them to change for me either. People are who
they are, and they do what they do, and that's OK with me. Nobody
should need to change to please someone else. >>
This sounds good, like it would have a soaring soundtrack, but I don't think
it's honest.
I bet there are people you don't think should break their vodka bottles at
the playground and then piss on the swings. You probably would want them to
change, whether they're doing it while you're watching or when you're asleep.
They really should change to please other people.
There are teachers who are truly mean to kids. They probably shouldn't be
teaching anymore, but over they years they've just become coldhearted and
sadistic. Do you think they shouldn't change to please others?
Muggers?
Drunk drivers?
Wife beaters?
Rapists?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 10:46 AM, Christine Kuglen wrote:
something I don't like, I don't expect them to change for me either.
People are who
they are, and they do what they do, and that's OK with me. Nobody
should need to change to please someone else. " Sandra was not
comparing breastfeeding in public to all those other anti-social
behaviors - she was saying that such SWEEPING generalizations are not
likely to be truly honest since all of us probably want rapists to not
rape and muggers to not mug, etc.
In this case, it seems the writer really does believe it. But since it
is such an unlikely/unusual position to take, it seemed like one of
those statements said for effect, but not really true when one gets
down to it. It is like the thing people sometimes say: "I respect all
opinions equally." Not true - really. If we respected all opinions
equally, we'd respect unschooling equally with the idea that children
need to be taught to read with flashcards when they are 6 months old.
Or people say, "I don't judge other people." Again, if so, they would
be equally willing to leave their baby with a convicted child-molester
as with their own best friend, to babysit.
One of the posting policies for this list is to say what you mean and
mean what you say -- don't use words like "always" or "never" unless
you mean them. That is important to good solid "real" and useful
conversation.
Sounds like that poster DID mean them. The rest of us can make our own
judgments about the belief system that says that if rapists rape
that's their predestiny and if the victim is victimized that is their
predestiny - and they chose that fate in some previous life so we
should be perfectly okay with it all happening - so she stands by her
statement that she doesn't want ANYBODY to change their anti-social
behaviors, no matter how cruel or violent they may be.
Agree or not - I'm not arguing her point- just pointing out that
Sandra's comment was not about breastfeeding at all - it was about
truthfulness of making such extreme statements.
-pam
> Sandra, you are a bit mistaken....All of the examples you gave areSandra was responding to THIS statement: " If someone is doing
> people who should change because they are hurting other people(not to
> please others)!
something I don't like, I don't expect them to change for me either.
People are who
they are, and they do what they do, and that's OK with me. Nobody
should need to change to please someone else. " Sandra was not
comparing breastfeeding in public to all those other anti-social
behaviors - she was saying that such SWEEPING generalizations are not
likely to be truly honest since all of us probably want rapists to not
rape and muggers to not mug, etc.
In this case, it seems the writer really does believe it. But since it
is such an unlikely/unusual position to take, it seemed like one of
those statements said for effect, but not really true when one gets
down to it. It is like the thing people sometimes say: "I respect all
opinions equally." Not true - really. If we respected all opinions
equally, we'd respect unschooling equally with the idea that children
need to be taught to read with flashcards when they are 6 months old.
Or people say, "I don't judge other people." Again, if so, they would
be equally willing to leave their baby with a convicted child-molester
as with their own best friend, to babysit.
One of the posting policies for this list is to say what you mean and
mean what you say -- don't use words like "always" or "never" unless
you mean them. That is important to good solid "real" and useful
conversation.
Sounds like that poster DID mean them. The rest of us can make our own
judgments about the belief system that says that if rapists rape
that's their predestiny and if the victim is victimized that is their
predestiny - and they chose that fate in some previous life so we
should be perfectly okay with it all happening - so she stands by her
statement that she doesn't want ANYBODY to change their anti-social
behaviors, no matter how cruel or violent they may be.
Agree or not - I'm not arguing her point- just pointing out that
Sandra's comment was not about breastfeeding at all - it was about
truthfulness of making such extreme statements.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/19/03 6:52:18 AM, wanderfree@... writes:
<< Sandra, you are a bit mistaken.... >>
No, I was inquiring directly about what the person meant who had declared
(and later confirmed) that nobody should change their behavior to make another
person more comfortable. Nobody, she said, and apparently she really meant it.
I disagree, even to the point of little things which don't hurt anyone.
Sandra
<< Sandra, you are a bit mistaken.... >>
No, I was inquiring directly about what the person meant who had declared
(and later confirmed) that nobody should change their behavior to make another
person more comfortable. Nobody, she said, and apparently she really meant it.
I disagree, even to the point of little things which don't hurt anyone.
Sandra