[email protected]

As a few of you know just from talking, I have changed many of the ways I
parent over the years. I used to spank, I no longer do that. I used to say no a
lot, but now I take the time to question why I'm saying no, and find myself
saying yes much more. My kids, for the most part, are so much happier. This
year 4 of the 6 still at home are back at home for "school" and the other 2
(foster sons) will be once their adoption is final. Unschooling is going
great...awesome in fact!

But I am having a terrible, terrible time with my husband. I love him
dearly, but we are not seeing eye to eye on giving the kids more freedoms to direct
their own lives. Our disagreements cover everything from bedtimes, to eating,
to curfews, to clothes, etc. My husband grew up in a very abusive home, but
has never been that way with the kids. However....he is much more strict than
I and it is really beginning to cause problems.

Tonight, my 17 yo daughter (who will be 18 in December!!) was 5 minutes late
getting home...she is now restricted for a week. He sees things as black and
white, and when someone moves slightly off the path, he sees it as the kids
being defiant against him, or him being too soft and not on top of things. It
is all with the best intentions...partly because of his religious beliefs,
ethics, etc. Partly because he was wild at one time and doesn't want to see them
get in trouble like he did. But we have VERY GOOD KIDS!!! I don't see why he
can't see that and realize they'll be OK if he'd let them have more freedoms!

It has been worse only lately, because he is home full time after we took out
a loan to finish our house before winter, enough to survive on for at least
another 3 months. I'm tired of the tension all this is bringing into our
family. I want so badly to see my children happy...I want them to have a good
relationship with their dad. But lately they feel he is so unfair (and I do too)
and don't even want to be around him. I try not to argue around them, and
instead talk to him in private, but we just don't see eye to eye on a lot of
things.

Any ideas?

Nancy B. in WV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

Partly because he was wild at one time and doesn't want to see them
> get in trouble like he did.

Presumably he was raised in a very strict environment, and it didn't stop
him from getting in trouble. What makes him think that the same kind of
upbringing will keep his kids out of trouble? Maybe he went wild *because*
of the way he was raised.
Tia
leschke@...

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where
there is no path and leave a trail."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

[email protected]

In a message dated 15/09/2003 19:50:49 Pacific Daylight Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:


> I want them to have a good
> relationship with their dad. But lately they feel he is so unfair (and I do
> too)
> and don't even want to be around him. I try not to argue around them, and
> instead talk to him in private, but we just don't see eye to eye on a lot of
>
> things.
>

How very upsetting, Nancy! We are right there with you on this, in some ways.
I don't have any suggestions, this is a huge issue in our house and one we
are working on all the time.I will be reading this thread with huge interest.
Nancy in BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/15/03 11:57:38 PM, LOWRIEK@... writes:

<< But lately they feel he is so unfair (and I do
> too)
> and don't even want to be around him. >>

It's better that there's just one parent being that way than two, though.
What about putting their concerns in writing? Either them doing it or you
doing it for them? Transcribe? If it's in writing and there's a recommendation
for an alternative solution, he can think about it, but he can't interrupt
and can't prevent it being "said."

Sandra

Julie Solich

>> But I am having a terrible, terrible time with my husband. I love him
dearly, but we are not seeing eye to eye on giving the kids more freedoms to
direct their own lives. Our disagreements cover everything from bedtimes,
to eating, to curfews, to clothes, etc. My husband grew up in a very
abusive home, but has never been that way with the kids. However....he is
much more strict than I and it is really beginning to cause problems.>>


When I first began making changes and giving the kids a lot more freedom and
choice, Mark was worried and we had quite a few heated discussions. Now
things are much better and I am so proud of the way he is mastering his
anger and working on changing the way he speaks to the kids etc.

One of the problems for him was that he felt left out. We were all at home
having loads of fun doing exactly what we wanted and he was at work. I made
an extra effort to make him feel appreciated and mentioned to the kids every
now and then how great it was that dad worked so hard so that we could be at
home. I think that helped.

He also was worried that they would grow up with no sense of responsibility
because I wasn't making them do chores. And I think coming home to a really
messy house didn't help. Still working on the messy house <g> but I
mentioned to him from time to time how much more willing the kids are to
help me now that they don't have to. Telling him about the helpful kind
things the kids did during the day, you know sharing the good stuff, helped
lots.

I printed off heaps from this list and websites for him to read. It's scary
to suddenly change the way you parent and without all the great ideas and
discussion on this list, I don't know that I could have done it. It's really
important IMO to make the information out there accessible to your partner
and to make the time privately to talk about it.

Mark felt that he didn't know his place in the family anymore and had no
idea how to be. It takes time to get comfortable with new stuff so little by
little is my motto. And just like our kids need lots of encouragement in
learning grown ups do too, so telling them when they handled something
really well is helpful too.

Compromising in areas like bedtime for awhile has worked for us. The kids
are going to bed later and they don't have a set one but if Mark has had a
long day and his back is sore and his head is thumping I'll offer the kids
an extra couple of chapters if they would like to go to bed earlier. It's
when you're tired at the end of the day that the controlling, knee jerk
reactions happen so keeping a 'flexible' bedtime makes for a peaceful house
at this time.

And making time for each other. Making some time in the day or night to be
together has helped Mark to not feel left out.

Hope this helps Nancy.

Julie


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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/2003 4:16:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mjsolich@... writes:
>>One of the problems for him was that he felt left out. We were all at home
Having loads of fun doing exactly what we wanted and he was at work. I made
an extra effort to make him feel appreciated and mentioned to the kids every
now and then how great it was that dad worked so hard so that we could be at
home. I think that helped.<<
I am always encouraging him to pursue his interests, but I think he hears the
"ghosts" from his past, his mom harassing and fussing at him that he's too
much like his dad. His mom is a very bitter person who puts down anything and
anyone that may make her feel even more bitter. Constantly haranguing about
how she got left by his dad, then got mixed up with a very abusive husband and
had 4 more kids...was mostly on welfare all of her adult years. I hate to say
it to him, but once in a while I remind him he's sounding very much like his
mom.
Mark felt that he didn't know his place in the family anymore and had no
idea how to be. It takes time to get comfortable with new stuff so little by
little is my motto. And just like our kids need lots of encouragement in
learning grown ups do too, so telling them when they handled something
really well is helpful too.<<

I notice that when I am gone for the day, or if Charlotte talks to him by
herself, and HE is in charge, they can work things out and come to compromises.
But it's always stuff like, "help me nail up this drywall and you can leave
early for the movies or stay out later." I guess it's not so bad. But I think
you helped me figure out a big part of it...his being left out. Maybe it's
also that he sees me being much happier with the kids, them happier with me, us
becoming closer, and he DOES feel left out. Hmmmmm.....I wonder if them
heading off to dinner or a hobby shop by themselves would help some.


>>Compromising in areas like bedtime for awhile has worked for us. The kids
are going to bed later and they don't have a set one but if Mark has had a
long day and his back is sore and his head is thumping I'll offer the kids
an extra couple of chapters if they would like to go to bed earlier. It's
when you're tired at the end of the day that the controlling, knee jerk
reactions happen so keeping a 'flexible' bedtime makes for a peaceful house
at this time.

And making time for each other. Making some time in the day or night to be
together has helped Mark to not feel left out.<<
Ugh...this is something that is definately lacking...I know my attitude about
things has not always been the best. I am often completely exhausted at the
end of the day (as he is) and he falls asleep in his recliner and I fall
asleep reading in bed. Family is here right now (my mom and stepdad) so we've not
had much privacy to talk either.

Thanks for the ideas Julie.

Nancy B. in WV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/2003 2:05:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
>>What about putting their concerns in writing? Either them doing it or you
doing it for them? Transcribe? If it's in writing and there's a
recommendation
for an alternative solution, he can think about it, but he can't interrupt
and can't prevent it being "said."<<
Good idea. Right now daughter said she just wants to avoid him, has no
interest in writing to him, doesn't even want to talk to him, but she's mad right
now, it will pass. I think it could be really good for her. Even if that's
all she did, write it down. I know I've done the same with him in the past. He
should have been a lawyer, has an answer for everything and we can (at times)
leave a discussion forgetting what our original point was! :o/ Thanks for
the idea.

Nancy B. in WV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

As will we. We are still a work in progress. Seems our son being out with
friends all summer avoided all issues. Though it seems he (our son) has also been
very quick/snappy to his dad and I suspect that relates to the neighborhood
squabbles also. They (neighborhood) went back to school and appear very moody.
Laura
<<<How very upsetting, Nancy! We are right there with you on this, in some
ways.
I don't have any suggestions, this is a huge issue in our house and one we
are working on all the time.I will be reading this thread with huge interest.
Nancy in BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/15/03 10:50:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:

> But I am having a terrible, terrible time with my husband. I love him
> dearly, but we are not seeing eye to eye on giving the kids more freedoms to
> direct
> their own lives.

Have you asked him why. Like when the almost 18 year old was 5 minutes late
did you ask dh why he wanted to restrict the child/teen and what he hoped to
accomplish. In a nice way. And really have a dialogue and why you feel the
way you do. It will probably take a lot of time. There are people that it hits
like a light switch and those that it takes time and a lot of discussion.

Although I am probably not the best to answer this as me and my dh have
always been on the same page when parenting issues are concerned.

Pam G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/03 5:03:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:

> >>What about putting their concerns in writing? Either them doing it or
> you
> doing it for them? Transcribe? If it's in writing and there's a
> recommendation
> for an alternative solution, he can think about it, but he can't interrupt
> and can't prevent it being "said."<<
> Good idea. Right now daughter said she just wants to avoid him, has no
> interest in writing to him, doesn't even want to talk to him, but she's mad
> right
> now, it will pass. I think it could be really good for her. Even if that's
>
> all she did, write it down. I know I've done the same with him in the past.
> He
> should have been a lawyer, has an answer for everything and we can (at
> times)
> leave a discussion forgetting what our original point was! :o/ Thanks for
> the idea.
>
> Nancy B. in WV
>

Hey there Nancy B. in WV,

I agree with Sandra on the writing part, even if he never sees it, the kids
and yourselves can get your own feelings expressed. All of them good, happy,
sad, frustrated, irritated. I would also add that since I believe you said in an
earlier post he is now home with all of you for a few months working on the
house, perhaps if you have a video camera handy, the kids could take turns
taping "dad" and the process of the remodeling. While giving him more attention to
what he is doing and creating an interest for the family, questions could be
tossed about here and there and then the family could watch it together or
just you and DH, either way, you'd be opening up lines of communication and he'd
be seeing his own actions like his attitude and hearing his own voice and
maybe that's what he needs, a dose of himself.

Just a thought,

Good luck,
Rhonda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/15/2003 9:50:48 PM Central Standard Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:


> Any ideas?

What a tough situation! Maybe a less direct approach would work. Give him
restrictions the next time he's late or doesn't do what he said he would.
This weekend I told my husband to yell at me instead of the kids over a silly
superhero toy I bought (money is tight). I just said "I'm the one who bought it,
please yell at me instead of them. It was my decision." It worked. Still
working on the threats. But my son's response might work better. Last night
he refused to brush his teeth until his dad said "please."

Hope you get better responses.

Elizabeth


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/03 5:54:18 AM, CelticFrau@... writes:

<< I hate to say
it to him, but once in a while I remind him he's sounding very much like his
mom.
Mark felt that he didn't know his place in the family anymore and had no
idea how to be. >>

Sometimes I say things to my husband like "It would have been so cool to grow
up like our kids are growing up." It's general and it's positive and
hopeful, and doesn't name or point directly to his mom or mine either.

<<Family is here right now (my mom and stepdad) so we've not
had much privacy to talk either. >>

Then you could go to dinner!! Even to a cheap place, have a burger and fries
and talk.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/03 6:04:16 AM, CelticFrau@... writes:

<< He
should have been a lawyer, has an answer for everything and we can (at times)
leave a discussion forgetting what our original point was! :o/ >>

Maybe that could go into the written message. "You don't let me get to my
point."

Sandra

Olga

Nancy,

It is always difficult when two partners are on differnt end of the
playing field. One specific example for me was when we had our
first son. I did not want him circumcised. I did alot of research
and reading and my dh went with the the typical reasons we should.
At some point I just put my foot down and said he needed to read
what I had found and than if he still wanted it his way he could go
in with the baby. That was enough, once he read the information it
was difficult to argue with me and now he talks like it was his
idea..LOL!

If you are having trouble maybe focus on one topic which is causing
problems, bedtime, more freedom, the problems with the institution
of school. Sometimes I break in my dh slowly by just mentioning
things discussed on this list, pulling out little excerpts or
reading him a paragraph from a book. I have tried to give him books
to read but he is busy and they never get read which led to me feel
resentful about him not being not part of the decision making. Now,
I respect that I make more of the decisions but by cueing him into
what we are doing he feels some control.

For example, with bedtime routines I just didn't make a big deal
about putting the kids to bed and then I discussed some of the
information I had gotten from here. Even with homeschooling in
general, I read the books and gave him the synopsis qouting the
really "great" stuff. Especially if I got to a real intersting
part, I would say "LISTEN TO THIS!" which is more sharing
than "teaching".

I do agree with Julie that my dh felt a little left out for a while
with us getting to go the zoo and parks, etc. and him stuck working
so defintiley making him feel important helps. Right now Keiran, my
5yo, is playing Zelda with his Dad. My dh feels special because
this is their thing and he can't wait for Dad to come home. Bedtime
goes later and later because he is playing and wants Keiran there
with him. It is really rather cute. A few times Keiran has fallen
asleep and my dh wanted to wake him up to show him something. I had
to remind him that he was tired enough..LOL!

So maybe in small doses of sharing information and making him feel
a bit more a part of the group might help. Also, if you have always
beleived in doing something one way it is hard to do it different
especially without the resources of books and groups like this so it
is harder for husbands IMO.

Olga :)

But lately they feel he is so unfair (and I do too)
> and don't even want to be around him. I try not to argue around
them, and
> instead talk to him in private, but we just don't see eye to eye
on a lot of
> things.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Nancy B. in WV
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/2003 6:09:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mccluskieo@... writes:
I did not want him circumcised. I did alot of research
and reading and my dh went with the the typical reasons we should.
At some point I just put my foot down and said he needed to read
what I had found and than if he still wanted it his way he could go
in with the baby. That was enough, once he read the information it
was difficult to argue with me and now he talks like it was his
idea..LOL!
"The man may be the head of the household, but the woman is the neck, and the
neck can turn the head any way she wants to" :o)

Homeschooling was originally my idea, he was totally against it. Took a
while but after a lot of begging, reasoning, and finally crying and pouting on my
part, he gave in. 13 years later, he's got every argument against public
school under his belt and gladly shares "his" beliefs with people at their wits
end with government education.

I've gotten some great ideas. Tomorrow morning when my head isn't swimming
with this day's clutter, I'll pen a heartfelt letter to him and encourage the
kids to do the same.

Nancy B. in WV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/2003 12:16:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Sometimes I say things to my husband like "It would have been so cool to grow
up like our kids are growing up." It's general and it's positive and
hopeful, and doesn't name or point directly to his mom or mine either
This is something we learned in our foster care training...speaking to the
kid in generalities instead of using the word "You." They also talked about
using "I feel" messages. "I feel really sad when people I love fight over very
small things. I would feel so much better if they would let the small things
go." Problem is I think of these things to say after the fact!

Nancy B. in WV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/2003 6:55:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:
>>SandraDodd@... writes:
Sometimes I say things to my husband like "It would have been so cool to grow
up like our kids are growing up." It's general and it's positive and
hopeful, and doesn't name or point directly to his mom or mine either<<


Nancy writes: >>This is something we learned in our foster care
training...speaking to the
kid in generalities instead of using the word "You." They also talked about
using "I feel" messages. "I feel really sad when people I love fight over
very
small things. I would feel so much better if they would let the small things
go." Problem is I think of these things to say after the fact!

Nancy B. in WV<< sorry folks...just got AOL 9.0...what a mistake...it keeps
running all the quotes together.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/03 4:09:03 PM, mccluskieo@... writes:

<< I do agree with Julie that my dh felt a little left out for a while

with us getting to go the zoo and parks, etc. and him stuck working

so defintiley making him feel important helps. >>

Sometimes I have said things like "We haven't been to the zoo for a while.
Do you want to go with us Saturday, or would you rather we just go Friday even
though you can't go?"

He doesn't REALLY want to go. But by making it his decision, it turns to
relief that he'll still have Saturday to do stuff around the house, and yes we go
to the zoo without him on Friday, but at least he COULD have gone.

That sort of thing has happened lots of times here. Keith used to complain
that he was left out and just had to work all the time, but he knows and I know
he would be working whether we had kids or not. We know he likes the kids
being home. We know he doesn't REALLY want to take them all the places I take
them. But once in a while I offer, or suggest it might be cool if he'd take
Holly and her friends to do something, and he says "Why don't you? Do you need
cash?"

Partly it just sounds like a trick, but deeper, it IS a reminder that he
could be doing more kid-duty and that he's choosing not to. Not always, but that
he's choosing. They do all get to hang out with him and go places with him,
too, and he's better at acting natural with them than he was at first. It took
years for him to be able to just converse with them normally, and not in some
stilted kind of way. But he got there.

Sandra

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/03 4:55:11 PM, CelticFrau@... writes:

<< SandraDodd@... writes:
Sometimes I say things to my husband like "It would have been so cool to grow
up like our kids are growing up." It's general and it's positive and
hopeful, and doesn't name or point directly to his mom or mine either

-----the quote of me ended up there------


Some people don't get their e-mail in color, and so please (in case that was
color to show the difference) please separate quote somehow or it gets all
confusing. Thanks!

---------- then this part was Nancy B, I think!----------

<<This is something we learned in our foster care training...speaking to the
kid in generalities instead of using the word "You." They also talked about
using "I feel" messages. "I feel really sad when people I love fight over
very
small things. I would feel so much better if they would let the small things
go." Problem is I think of these things to say after the fact! >>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/03 4:59:58 PM, CelticFrau@... writes:

<< Nancy B. in WV<< sorry folks...just got AOL 9.0...what a mistake...it
keeps
running all the quotes together. >>

OH!! NEVER MIND; very sorry for me pulling them since you already pulled and
separated them. Kirby has 9.0 on his PC. I'll be careful when I post from
his!

Sandra