Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] More clarifying.
Judie C. Rall
On the other hand, parents WITH such difficult-to-be-around kids have a
social responsibility, to their friends and to strangers around them,
too, to not disrupt their lives unreasonably.
***************************************************
Why?
I don't have a difficult-to-be-around child, but I see that it's
about the same as anything we do which is non-mainstream.
There are lots of things our family does that probably would irritate
someone if they were around us. So is it my "social responsibility"
to not do anything around anybody else that might irritate them?
If I believe in extended breastfeeding, is it my social
responsibility to not breastfeed in public or around other people
because it might bother them? No, my child needs to be fed when they
are hungry, and I am going to honor that need no matter where I am.
I don't care if others are bothered.
If I believe in not immunizing my children, does that mean I should
keep them away from all other children because some parents may
believe mine will infect theirs? No, I won't do that. They are
misinformed, my child is actually more in danger of being infected
from theirs than they are from mine.
If I believe in unschooling, and parents object to my kids talking to
theirs because it might give their kids ideas about quitting school,
am I going to tell my kids they can't talk to the other ones if they
see them in the neighborhood? No, my kids can talk to whoever they
want to.
Because I don't teach my kids that drinking, cussing, dancing and sex
are wrong, some parents don't like their kids to be around mine,
because they might get bad "ideas." So, it is socially responsible
for me to make sure that my kids aren't around anyone that might be
offended by our beliefs? No, that's not my responsibility.
Lots of people feel that our beliefs and way of life are disruptive
to theirs. It's not my job to keep my kids away from them because
the way I am raising them makes somebody uncomfortable. I live in an
area where kids are thought to be rude if they don't say yes sir and
no sir, and where you don't contradict an adult and you don't talk
back. But I have taught my kids they should question everything.
That makes some people uncomfortable, and they say we aren't teaching
our kids right. Does that mean I should tell my kids that they have
to say yes sir and no sir when they are around these people? No,
it's not our job to cater to other people's narrow beliefs or
misunderstanding of what we do. And I don't think that it's the
responsibility of parents of difficult kids to apologize for their
behavior or to make sure they aren't disrupting anybody's lives.
If somebody is disrupting my life, I make up my mind to be
understanding, or I just leave. I don't ask that person to change on
my account.
social responsibility, to their friends and to strangers around them,
too, to not disrupt their lives unreasonably.
***************************************************
Why?
I don't have a difficult-to-be-around child, but I see that it's
about the same as anything we do which is non-mainstream.
There are lots of things our family does that probably would irritate
someone if they were around us. So is it my "social responsibility"
to not do anything around anybody else that might irritate them?
If I believe in extended breastfeeding, is it my social
responsibility to not breastfeed in public or around other people
because it might bother them? No, my child needs to be fed when they
are hungry, and I am going to honor that need no matter where I am.
I don't care if others are bothered.
If I believe in not immunizing my children, does that mean I should
keep them away from all other children because some parents may
believe mine will infect theirs? No, I won't do that. They are
misinformed, my child is actually more in danger of being infected
from theirs than they are from mine.
If I believe in unschooling, and parents object to my kids talking to
theirs because it might give their kids ideas about quitting school,
am I going to tell my kids they can't talk to the other ones if they
see them in the neighborhood? No, my kids can talk to whoever they
want to.
Because I don't teach my kids that drinking, cussing, dancing and sex
are wrong, some parents don't like their kids to be around mine,
because they might get bad "ideas." So, it is socially responsible
for me to make sure that my kids aren't around anyone that might be
offended by our beliefs? No, that's not my responsibility.
Lots of people feel that our beliefs and way of life are disruptive
to theirs. It's not my job to keep my kids away from them because
the way I am raising them makes somebody uncomfortable. I live in an
area where kids are thought to be rude if they don't say yes sir and
no sir, and where you don't contradict an adult and you don't talk
back. But I have taught my kids they should question everything.
That makes some people uncomfortable, and they say we aren't teaching
our kids right. Does that mean I should tell my kids that they have
to say yes sir and no sir when they are around these people? No,
it's not our job to cater to other people's narrow beliefs or
misunderstanding of what we do. And I don't think that it's the
responsibility of parents of difficult kids to apologize for their
behavior or to make sure they aren't disrupting anybody's lives.
If somebody is disrupting my life, I make up my mind to be
understanding, or I just leave. I don't ask that person to change on
my account.
[email protected]
Although, it is evident that folks who have children with explosive tempers
DO understand "how it works" when a kid gets out of control. It is also
obvious that some folks continue to think the child's behavior is a direct result
of how or how "not" the child has been parented.
In the situation with JP in the van.. getting frustrated over the game... and
he blamed mine and Anna's talking on his messing up. If you read the post
carefully, you saw that I first tried to help him, talk him through it.. He
only became more enraged. He felt my talking was the "problem' continuing to
talk would only give him more fuel to become frustrated. By being silent, he
could no longer "blame" his anger on our talking. It worked.. although he did
chose something else to focus his anger on.. my driving. And I did calmly
explain that I was driving as carefully as I could.. which irritated him because
I talked again. But ultimately, he laid down on the back seat and started
sucking his thumb and calmed himself down.
I am so glad that other folks came forward to say that their children have
similar outrages. When a child gets that frustrated and out of control, they
really can't be reasoned with rationally. And they are sorry after thier rage
subsides and typically, they are loving, happy children. Other folks shared
that they use basically the same tactics.. Waiting it out.. offering comfort,
safety, talking and accepting the child are all good suggestions.
I still did not see any specific examples of "not tolerating" or setting
personal boundaries for this kind of behavior. Why is using strong language
considered stepping over some invisible line?
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DO understand "how it works" when a kid gets out of control. It is also
obvious that some folks continue to think the child's behavior is a direct result
of how or how "not" the child has been parented.
In the situation with JP in the van.. getting frustrated over the game... and
he blamed mine and Anna's talking on his messing up. If you read the post
carefully, you saw that I first tried to help him, talk him through it.. He
only became more enraged. He felt my talking was the "problem' continuing to
talk would only give him more fuel to become frustrated. By being silent, he
could no longer "blame" his anger on our talking. It worked.. although he did
chose something else to focus his anger on.. my driving. And I did calmly
explain that I was driving as carefully as I could.. which irritated him because
I talked again. But ultimately, he laid down on the back seat and started
sucking his thumb and calmed himself down.
I am so glad that other folks came forward to say that their children have
similar outrages. When a child gets that frustrated and out of control, they
really can't be reasoned with rationally. And they are sorry after thier rage
subsides and typically, they are loving, happy children. Other folks shared
that they use basically the same tactics.. Waiting it out.. offering comfort,
safety, talking and accepting the child are all good suggestions.
I still did not see any specific examples of "not tolerating" or setting
personal boundaries for this kind of behavior. Why is using strong language
considered stepping over some invisible line?
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wendy Usher-Peigan
I think I've missed some of this thread, I haven't received any of my own posts in my inbox, so I've probably missed others', so forgive me if I'm not clear on this.
Strong language from him or from you? No reason, really for asking, I just got confused is all. (lol)
My now almost 13 year old 'raged' and 'threw tantrums' from 18 months of age until about a month into beginning homeschooling a year ago. He had been spanked, timed-out, ignored, reasoned with, medicated, belittled, punished, consequenced, isolated, restrained, removed from my care, placed in a secure facility and then in a series of foster homes, returned to my care--nothing had changed--counselled, threatened, grounded, bribed, you name it, we--or someone "acting on our behalf"--tried it. The *only* thing that changed anything was taking him out of school and taking him off of the medication, out of the counselling, and having him safe at home.
They don't always just grow out of it, and it's not always about the parenting, necessarily.
Anyone who saw me during one of his episodes between 1991 and 2002 would have sworn I was doing nothing to help him or to instruct him in the appropriate ways to express one's anger. They would not have known about the abuse counselling the whole family has endured, the play therapy, art therapy, talk therapy my son had had to sit through, the parenting classes I had gone to, the clinics, the drugs, the behaviour mod. school programs, the b.a. classes, etc, etc, etc.
It's incredibly easy NOT to see what a parent is doing to try to live with and even love their 'raging' child.
As a bit of an aside, as it turns out, my son was not 'raging', he was panicking. These were anxiety attacks, these tantrums. School was a nightmare for him, social situations were a nightmare for him (birthday parties, fun? Not for him), and he would panic and didn't know how to get out of the situation in which he was 'trapped'. So he freaked. And man, did he pay for that!
Wendy
"The sheeplike tendency of human society soon makes inroads on a child's unsophistications, and then popular education completes the dastardly work with its systematic formulas, and away goes the individual, hurtling through space into that hateful oblivion of mediocrity. We are pruned into stumps, one resembling another, without character or grace." --- NC Wyeth, father of Andrew Wyeth, Artist/Painter, who was home educated.
Wendy Usher
PartyLite Consultant
wendy.au@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Strong language from him or from you? No reason, really for asking, I just got confused is all. (lol)
My now almost 13 year old 'raged' and 'threw tantrums' from 18 months of age until about a month into beginning homeschooling a year ago. He had been spanked, timed-out, ignored, reasoned with, medicated, belittled, punished, consequenced, isolated, restrained, removed from my care, placed in a secure facility and then in a series of foster homes, returned to my care--nothing had changed--counselled, threatened, grounded, bribed, you name it, we--or someone "acting on our behalf"--tried it. The *only* thing that changed anything was taking him out of school and taking him off of the medication, out of the counselling, and having him safe at home.
They don't always just grow out of it, and it's not always about the parenting, necessarily.
Anyone who saw me during one of his episodes between 1991 and 2002 would have sworn I was doing nothing to help him or to instruct him in the appropriate ways to express one's anger. They would not have known about the abuse counselling the whole family has endured, the play therapy, art therapy, talk therapy my son had had to sit through, the parenting classes I had gone to, the clinics, the drugs, the behaviour mod. school programs, the b.a. classes, etc, etc, etc.
It's incredibly easy NOT to see what a parent is doing to try to live with and even love their 'raging' child.
As a bit of an aside, as it turns out, my son was not 'raging', he was panicking. These were anxiety attacks, these tantrums. School was a nightmare for him, social situations were a nightmare for him (birthday parties, fun? Not for him), and he would panic and didn't know how to get out of the situation in which he was 'trapped'. So he freaked. And man, did he pay for that!
Wendy
"The sheeplike tendency of human society soon makes inroads on a child's unsophistications, and then popular education completes the dastardly work with its systematic formulas, and away goes the individual, hurtling through space into that hateful oblivion of mediocrity. We are pruned into stumps, one resembling another, without character or grace." --- NC Wyeth, father of Andrew Wyeth, Artist/Painter, who was home educated.
Wendy Usher
PartyLite Consultant
wendy.au@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Sunday, September 14, 2003, at 10:38 AM, TeresaBnNC@... wrote:
explosive - although I could have beaten it out of them, I'm sure,
through tough-love punishments.
But - to say that it isn't parenting that MADE them that way, is not to
say that parenting isn't critical in how they eventually come to terms
with their own temperament and how they mature into, not just knowing
how to control their temper and behave in a socially functional way,
but learning how to use this gift for extremely strong emotion in the
service of humanity in their own unique ways.
So - my discussion of parenting in regard to explosive children is
aimed in that direction, not in blaming the parents for it being
difficult to be around their kids.
On the other hand, parents WITH such difficult-to-be-around kids have a
social responsibility, to their friends and to strangers around them,
too, to not disrupt their lives unreasonably. Where that line is drawn
depends totally on the situation and relationships between the people
involved.
Teresa keeps saying that nobody is giving concrete ideas of how
boundaries can be set.
I thought I said this, but I'm having email trouble and maybe it never
went through.
If I had to, I would use my position as the adult - my voice or even my
physical strength and control, the minimum necessary, to keep my child
from putting other people's safety in jeopardy. I'd use my voice to
demand that he/she go into another room. I'd use my understanding to
know what kind of voice and expression would work best with that child.
I'd send other kids OUT of the room if that was an option. If not, I'd
pick up a child who was flailing and hitting and even pin his her her
arms tightly to protect myself if I had to. If they wouldn't stop
screaming vulgarities and spewing nasty stuff at other people, I'd do
the same - move them somewhere or move the others somewhere. But - I
would do all this calmly - this is MY child and I'm on her side. I'd
appreciate it if my husband did the same for me if I had a meltdown in
front of others - helped get me out of it somehow - if he recognized
that I had completely lost control, I'd want him to help me!! If we
were in the car and there was screaming and swearing at people and so
on - if it got to that point - I would certainly stop the car - that
level of rage would mean we would definitely not just "carry on" as if
things were okay. If we had to just sit and wait, I pull over near a
place where the other kids could get out of the car and play - on a
playground or something. I mean - there is no telling what the
situation would look like right then - hard to say what I'd do when I
don't know the circumstances.
I know one thing - that the parent of these kids OFTEN has to sacrifice
doing what they want to do. Often has to let the other kids be with
other families in a restaurant while we sit in the car with the kid who
can't maintain control well enough to be in the restaurant. If it was
predictable, we wouldn't take them in the first place, of course.
AND - there are those parents I've known who have PARENTED their kids
into being disruptive, tantrum-throwing, inconsiderate and obnoxious.
So, yes, I do believe that this is not always temperament - that it IS,
in fact, sometimes simply the way the kid was parented that led to them
not getting past normal 2 or 3 year old behavior by the time they are
10 or older.
I'm not saying that anybody here is one way or the other (except for a
couple of you, whom I know really well and KNOW the great parenting
your kids have gotten - temperamental by nature or not).
-pam
> Although, it is evident that folks who have children with explosiveI have explosive children - one in particular. Its not my fault they're
> tempers
> DO understand "how it works" when a kid gets out of control. It is
> also
> obvious that some folks continue to think the child's behavior is a
> direct result
> of how or how "not" the child has been parented.
explosive - although I could have beaten it out of them, I'm sure,
through tough-love punishments.
But - to say that it isn't parenting that MADE them that way, is not to
say that parenting isn't critical in how they eventually come to terms
with their own temperament and how they mature into, not just knowing
how to control their temper and behave in a socially functional way,
but learning how to use this gift for extremely strong emotion in the
service of humanity in their own unique ways.
So - my discussion of parenting in regard to explosive children is
aimed in that direction, not in blaming the parents for it being
difficult to be around their kids.
On the other hand, parents WITH such difficult-to-be-around kids have a
social responsibility, to their friends and to strangers around them,
too, to not disrupt their lives unreasonably. Where that line is drawn
depends totally on the situation and relationships between the people
involved.
Teresa keeps saying that nobody is giving concrete ideas of how
boundaries can be set.
I thought I said this, but I'm having email trouble and maybe it never
went through.
If I had to, I would use my position as the adult - my voice or even my
physical strength and control, the minimum necessary, to keep my child
from putting other people's safety in jeopardy. I'd use my voice to
demand that he/she go into another room. I'd use my understanding to
know what kind of voice and expression would work best with that child.
I'd send other kids OUT of the room if that was an option. If not, I'd
pick up a child who was flailing and hitting and even pin his her her
arms tightly to protect myself if I had to. If they wouldn't stop
screaming vulgarities and spewing nasty stuff at other people, I'd do
the same - move them somewhere or move the others somewhere. But - I
would do all this calmly - this is MY child and I'm on her side. I'd
appreciate it if my husband did the same for me if I had a meltdown in
front of others - helped get me out of it somehow - if he recognized
that I had completely lost control, I'd want him to help me!! If we
were in the car and there was screaming and swearing at people and so
on - if it got to that point - I would certainly stop the car - that
level of rage would mean we would definitely not just "carry on" as if
things were okay. If we had to just sit and wait, I pull over near a
place where the other kids could get out of the car and play - on a
playground or something. I mean - there is no telling what the
situation would look like right then - hard to say what I'd do when I
don't know the circumstances.
I know one thing - that the parent of these kids OFTEN has to sacrifice
doing what they want to do. Often has to let the other kids be with
other families in a restaurant while we sit in the car with the kid who
can't maintain control well enough to be in the restaurant. If it was
predictable, we wouldn't take them in the first place, of course.
AND - there are those parents I've known who have PARENTED their kids
into being disruptive, tantrum-throwing, inconsiderate and obnoxious.
So, yes, I do believe that this is not always temperament - that it IS,
in fact, sometimes simply the way the kid was parented that led to them
not getting past normal 2 or 3 year old behavior by the time they are
10 or older.
I'm not saying that anybody here is one way or the other (except for a
couple of you, whom I know really well and KNOW the great parenting
your kids have gotten - temperamental by nature or not).
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/14/03 12:07:49 PM, TeresaBnNC@... writes:
<< I still did not see any specific examples of "not tolerating" or setting
personal boundaries for this kind of behavior. Why is using strong language
considered stepping over some invisible line? >>
Is the line between "I'm angry" and "You suck" invisible to you?
<< I still did not see any specific examples of "not tolerating" or setting
personal boundaries for this kind of behavior. Why is using strong language
considered stepping over some invisible line? >>
Is the line between "I'm angry" and "You suck" invisible to you?
Shyrley
TeresaBnNC@... wrote:
childhaving an uncontrollable rage. My kids fight and call each other
names sometimes and I deal with that in a completely different way to
how I deal with the rage. With true 'nastiness' I step in immediately
and tell them that its not acceptable (I'm not talking sibling bickering
but when it gets nasty). I aslo talk to them afterwards. With 'rage' I
do leave the park/house or wherever I am cos I am embaressed and
stressed and afraid of bothering other people. When the child has
emerged from the other side we talk and on the whole the child is
actually more sorry for the 'rage' than for being nasty to a sibling.
My mother advocates spanking for both cases. She says a child should be
broken and is unconcerned that the apparent good behaviour is through
fear. Despite this attitude and many beatings she managed to control the
every day behaviour of my brother and me but not our 'rages' They are
generally as uncontrollable as depression or anorexia or autism. My
brother and I both left home at 16, the day we were legally able too.
My Unschooling and TCS philosophy doesn't allow me to take the
'beatings' path or to humiliate or shame the child in order to break
them however easy it would be and to be honest 'abusive' behaviour is
rare. I can't recall a time when any of them said something nasty to me
out of nastiness or meaness. It is the uncontrollable rages the child
experiences where neither beatings nor TCS seem to help (not that I've
tried beatings...). I also find myself helpless against the depression
that H is beginning to suffer, at the same age I developed it. My own
depression led to anorexia, self harm and attempted suicide and years of
obnoxius doctors and drug therapy.
This problem with her friend which stemmed from somthing she couldn't
control is leading her deeper into depression yet people are treating
her like both are her fault and that she chooses to rage or be
depressed. Being a homeschooler in a way makes things worse. Generally
parents have to get on for the kids to be friends. If they were at
school then parents wouldn't even come into it, the girls would meet at
school.
Anyway, I'm going to end my participation in this topic here. I can't
cope with the situation, am stressed beyond belief and think that I
should isolate my kids from all others.
Shyrley
>Although, it is evident that folks who have children with explosive tempersThere's also a distinction between a child 'abusing' someone and a
>DO understand "how it works" when a kid gets out of control. It is also
>obvious that some folks continue to think the child's behavior is a direct result
>of how or how "not" the child has been parented.
>
>
>
childhaving an uncontrollable rage. My kids fight and call each other
names sometimes and I deal with that in a completely different way to
how I deal with the rage. With true 'nastiness' I step in immediately
and tell them that its not acceptable (I'm not talking sibling bickering
but when it gets nasty). I aslo talk to them afterwards. With 'rage' I
do leave the park/house or wherever I am cos I am embaressed and
stressed and afraid of bothering other people. When the child has
emerged from the other side we talk and on the whole the child is
actually more sorry for the 'rage' than for being nasty to a sibling.
My mother advocates spanking for both cases. She says a child should be
broken and is unconcerned that the apparent good behaviour is through
fear. Despite this attitude and many beatings she managed to control the
every day behaviour of my brother and me but not our 'rages' They are
generally as uncontrollable as depression or anorexia or autism. My
brother and I both left home at 16, the day we were legally able too.
My Unschooling and TCS philosophy doesn't allow me to take the
'beatings' path or to humiliate or shame the child in order to break
them however easy it would be and to be honest 'abusive' behaviour is
rare. I can't recall a time when any of them said something nasty to me
out of nastiness or meaness. It is the uncontrollable rages the child
experiences where neither beatings nor TCS seem to help (not that I've
tried beatings...). I also find myself helpless against the depression
that H is beginning to suffer, at the same age I developed it. My own
depression led to anorexia, self harm and attempted suicide and years of
obnoxius doctors and drug therapy.
This problem with her friend which stemmed from somthing she couldn't
control is leading her deeper into depression yet people are treating
her like both are her fault and that she chooses to rage or be
depressed. Being a homeschooler in a way makes things worse. Generally
parents have to get on for the kids to be friends. If they were at
school then parents wouldn't even come into it, the girls would meet at
school.
Anyway, I'm going to end my participation in this topic here. I can't
cope with the situation, am stressed beyond belief and think that I
should isolate my kids from all others.
Shyrley
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/14/03 1:06:49 PM, adonai@... writes:
<< If I believe in extended breastfeeding, is it my social
responsibility to not breastfeed in public or around other people
because it might bother them? No, my child needs to be fed when they
are hungry, and I am going to honor that need no matter where I am.
I don't care if others are bothered. >>
But that's a loving, nurturing thing.
A child spewing "fucking bitch" isn't doing a loving, nurturing thing.
A parent ignoring that isn't being loving or nurturing either.
A kid playing with a ball without breaking things isn't a offensive thing. A
kid throwing a baseball purposely through windows or at sculptures or lamps
or dishes is not doing a loving, nurturing thing.
If the principle is consideration for others, then you look at each situation
and see whether there's consideration.
I nursed in public lots, but I wouldn't consciously nurse in front of a bunch
of older men who weren't used to it and were uncomfortable. It would be
rude. If they came to MY house, they'd have to live with it, but if I went to an
Elk's meeting where I was the out of place visitor, I would adjust my actions
to their comfort and expectations.
<<If I believe in not immunizing my children, does that mean I should
keep them away from all other children because some parents may
believe mine will infect theirs? No, I won't do that. They are
misinformed, my child is actually more in danger of being infected
from theirs than they are from mine. >>
An unimmunized kid isn't getting into another person's space or disturbing
their peace.
Kirby had lots more shots than Holly, and they're both capable of being
courteous in other people's houses. If I believe in not immunizing my children,
does that mean I should
keep them away from all other children because some parents may
believe mine will infect theirs? No, I won't do that. They are
misinformed, my child is actually more in danger of being infected
from theirs than they are from mine. It's a whole different topic.
<<If I believe in unschooling, and parents object to my kids talking to
theirs because it might give their kids ideas about quitting school,
am I going to tell my kids they can't talk to the other ones if they
see them in the neighborhood? No, my kids can talk to whoever they
want to.>>
Can they say whatever they want to without regard to the personal or social
consequences? I talk about unschooling most of the time. I don't when I'm
with someone I KNOW has to work, who has relatives (especially stepchildren)
they can't even begin to consider homeschooing, let alone unschooling. If they
want information it's there. If they ask about my kids, I tell them stories.
But even my kids know when their freedom isn't the most polite topic of
conversation.
<<Because I don't teach my kids that drinking, cussing, dancing and sex
are wrong, some parents don't like their kids to be around mine,
because they might get bad "ideas." So, it is socially responsible
for me to make sure that my kids aren't around anyone that might be
offended by our beliefs? No, that's not my responsibility.>>
Do your kids cuss and have sex indiscriminately?
I doubt it.
Would your kids know that a poker game is a better place to utter "son of a
bitch" than a funeral might be?
I bet they do.
<<Lots of people feel that our beliefs and way of life are disruptive
to theirs. It's not my job to keep my kids away from them because
the way I am raising them makes somebody uncomfortable. >>
Depends where the people are. Are they in their own home?
In our house, if one of my kids is walking around singing songs from the
South Park movie, nobody in the family cares. If we have company, they're not
likely to do it. If they're visiting Christian friends, they definitely won't
burst into "Step one, 'stead of ass say buns, like kiss my buns or you're a buns
hole."
I don't think it's a sin.
I do think there are times and places, and if a child is told that he can say
fuck anywhere he wants to and to anyone he wants, that's a great disservice,
and when he's grown he could have legal problems with it.
<<And I don't think that it's the
responsibility of parents of difficult kids to apologize for their
behavior or to make sure they aren't disrupting anybody's lives. >>
We had unschooling get-togethers for years. Often they were at our house.
One family could (and a couple did) keep others from returning to the group.
That wasn't cool for their kids or mine, or the other families who no longer
felt comfortable.
In a park, I could move away from them. When it was my house, I could ask
them to leave or let them stay and disturb the peace of others who were there.
Usually I just dealt directly with the child and bypassed the mom if the mom
wasn't interested in keeping the peace of others. It was my house, it was my
peace to keep.
Sandra
<< If I believe in extended breastfeeding, is it my social
responsibility to not breastfeed in public or around other people
because it might bother them? No, my child needs to be fed when they
are hungry, and I am going to honor that need no matter where I am.
I don't care if others are bothered. >>
But that's a loving, nurturing thing.
A child spewing "fucking bitch" isn't doing a loving, nurturing thing.
A parent ignoring that isn't being loving or nurturing either.
A kid playing with a ball without breaking things isn't a offensive thing. A
kid throwing a baseball purposely through windows or at sculptures or lamps
or dishes is not doing a loving, nurturing thing.
If the principle is consideration for others, then you look at each situation
and see whether there's consideration.
I nursed in public lots, but I wouldn't consciously nurse in front of a bunch
of older men who weren't used to it and were uncomfortable. It would be
rude. If they came to MY house, they'd have to live with it, but if I went to an
Elk's meeting where I was the out of place visitor, I would adjust my actions
to their comfort and expectations.
<<If I believe in not immunizing my children, does that mean I should
keep them away from all other children because some parents may
believe mine will infect theirs? No, I won't do that. They are
misinformed, my child is actually more in danger of being infected
from theirs than they are from mine. >>
An unimmunized kid isn't getting into another person's space or disturbing
their peace.
Kirby had lots more shots than Holly, and they're both capable of being
courteous in other people's houses. If I believe in not immunizing my children,
does that mean I should
keep them away from all other children because some parents may
believe mine will infect theirs? No, I won't do that. They are
misinformed, my child is actually more in danger of being infected
from theirs than they are from mine. It's a whole different topic.
<<If I believe in unschooling, and parents object to my kids talking to
theirs because it might give their kids ideas about quitting school,
am I going to tell my kids they can't talk to the other ones if they
see them in the neighborhood? No, my kids can talk to whoever they
want to.>>
Can they say whatever they want to without regard to the personal or social
consequences? I talk about unschooling most of the time. I don't when I'm
with someone I KNOW has to work, who has relatives (especially stepchildren)
they can't even begin to consider homeschooing, let alone unschooling. If they
want information it's there. If they ask about my kids, I tell them stories.
But even my kids know when their freedom isn't the most polite topic of
conversation.
<<Because I don't teach my kids that drinking, cussing, dancing and sex
are wrong, some parents don't like their kids to be around mine,
because they might get bad "ideas." So, it is socially responsible
for me to make sure that my kids aren't around anyone that might be
offended by our beliefs? No, that's not my responsibility.>>
Do your kids cuss and have sex indiscriminately?
I doubt it.
Would your kids know that a poker game is a better place to utter "son of a
bitch" than a funeral might be?
I bet they do.
<<Lots of people feel that our beliefs and way of life are disruptive
to theirs. It's not my job to keep my kids away from them because
the way I am raising them makes somebody uncomfortable. >>
Depends where the people are. Are they in their own home?
In our house, if one of my kids is walking around singing songs from the
South Park movie, nobody in the family cares. If we have company, they're not
likely to do it. If they're visiting Christian friends, they definitely won't
burst into "Step one, 'stead of ass say buns, like kiss my buns or you're a buns
hole."
I don't think it's a sin.
I do think there are times and places, and if a child is told that he can say
fuck anywhere he wants to and to anyone he wants, that's a great disservice,
and when he's grown he could have legal problems with it.
<<And I don't think that it's the
responsibility of parents of difficult kids to apologize for their
behavior or to make sure they aren't disrupting anybody's lives. >>
We had unschooling get-togethers for years. Often they were at our house.
One family could (and a couple did) keep others from returning to the group.
That wasn't cool for their kids or mine, or the other families who no longer
felt comfortable.
In a park, I could move away from them. When it was my house, I could ask
them to leave or let them stay and disturb the peace of others who were there.
Usually I just dealt directly with the child and bypassed the mom if the mom
wasn't interested in keeping the peace of others. It was my house, it was my
peace to keep.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/14/03 2:34:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
Although I don't have one of these explosive children. Teresa was saying that JP
was using names like F--ing B-- etc and she was the one being directed at.
Not other people. Although her daughter was there and he was blaming their
talking for him messing up she (Mom) was the recipient of the language. People
were suggesting that no one should have to put up with this not even her and
she should set personal boundaries. Not boundaries for him or between him and
other people. She was asking how to do that. Because as the parent she felt
it was her responsibility to be there for him if/when he needed her and to help
him in any way she could.
Maybe I misunderstood what someone else had posted.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
> If they wouldn't stopI thought the comment on personal boundaries was directed at the parent.
> screaming vulgarities and spewing nasty stuff at other people, I'd do
> the same - move them somewhere or move the others somewhere. But - I
> would do all this calmly - this is MY child and I'm on her side
Although I don't have one of these explosive children. Teresa was saying that JP
was using names like F--ing B-- etc and she was the one being directed at.
Not other people. Although her daughter was there and he was blaming their
talking for him messing up she (Mom) was the recipient of the language. People
were suggesting that no one should have to put up with this not even her and
she should set personal boundaries. Not boundaries for him or between him and
other people. She was asking how to do that. Because as the parent she felt
it was her responsibility to be there for him if/when he needed her and to help
him in any way she could.
Maybe I misunderstood what someone else had posted.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Pam S.
I do not recall reading your post before.. I could have missed it, or maybe
Yahoo ate it.
I agree with everything you said. And, we have stopped our car many times..
Sometimes just pulling off the road for a minute is enough.. and yes,
sometimes it takes several minutes.. And occasionally, a temper will calm down after
we stop only to flare back up a few miles down the road. Gosh, I have taken
trips that should have taken 30 minutes turn into an hour and half. In the
case with JP, Anna and I. I was on a long stretch of Interstate. He was not
inhibiting my driving, he was not hitting Anna or me.. he was just screaming
and cussing, and kicking my seat occasionally. In this instance, driving
along for 20 minutes had the same effect as stopping for 20 minutes. As well as
I can recall, I don't remember seeing an exit I could have stopped at.. But, I
also know that I did not feel stopping was necessary. Now, if Ethan had been
in the van with us. I would have HAD to stopped. I could not drive safely
because they would have been bouncing off of each other and need to be
seperated til JP calmed down. Oh. Dh just honked the horn for me. .. we are going
over to my mil's.. I 'll catch up on email later
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I do not recall reading your post before.. I could have missed it, or maybe
Yahoo ate it.
I agree with everything you said. And, we have stopped our car many times..
Sometimes just pulling off the road for a minute is enough.. and yes,
sometimes it takes several minutes.. And occasionally, a temper will calm down after
we stop only to flare back up a few miles down the road. Gosh, I have taken
trips that should have taken 30 minutes turn into an hour and half. In the
case with JP, Anna and I. I was on a long stretch of Interstate. He was not
inhibiting my driving, he was not hitting Anna or me.. he was just screaming
and cussing, and kicking my seat occasionally. In this instance, driving
along for 20 minutes had the same effect as stopping for 20 minutes. As well as
I can recall, I don't remember seeing an exit I could have stopped at.. But, I
also know that I did not feel stopping was necessary. Now, if Ethan had been
in the van with us. I would have HAD to stopped. I could not drive safely
because they would have been bouncing off of each other and need to be
seperated til JP calmed down. Oh. Dh just honked the horn for me. .. we are going
over to my mil's.. I 'll catch up on email later
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_clevengers
I have to say that one thing sticks out at me with this discussion of
screaming/cussing/kicking fits in cars, and that is: How safe is
this? The last few times I've been on the interstate, I've had the
unhappy luck to see the results of fatal accidents involving
minivans, and sometimes I wonder "what was happening in that car at
the time?" Perhaps a driver distracted by fighting siblings or
screaming child. I know how distracting it can be, and only for a
second or two, but those seconds count.
I personally have a low noise threshold and low tolerance for
screaming. If my kids scream in the car, they know without a doubt
that the car will be pulling over until the screaming has stopped. I
remind them that my first job is to love them, and my second job is
to keep them safe. It's not safe to drive while someone is screaming,
and I absolutely wouldn't drive with the rage/kicking/screaming
described here, just for the safety of myself, my children, and the
other people on the road. I am also fine with children
screaming/getting out rage in appropriate ways that do not endanger
our health and safety. It's fine to scream outside the car, or to
scream inside the car (sometimes I will get out, 'cuz I just can't
stand it). Fortunately, this is an extremely infrequent occurrence. I
don't know if that's because my kids outgrew tantrums at a reasonably
young age, or because they know we aren't getting anywhere if we have
to sit by the side of the road.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
screaming/cussing/kicking fits in cars, and that is: How safe is
this? The last few times I've been on the interstate, I've had the
unhappy luck to see the results of fatal accidents involving
minivans, and sometimes I wonder "what was happening in that car at
the time?" Perhaps a driver distracted by fighting siblings or
screaming child. I know how distracting it can be, and only for a
second or two, but those seconds count.
I personally have a low noise threshold and low tolerance for
screaming. If my kids scream in the car, they know without a doubt
that the car will be pulling over until the screaming has stopped. I
remind them that my first job is to love them, and my second job is
to keep them safe. It's not safe to drive while someone is screaming,
and I absolutely wouldn't drive with the rage/kicking/screaming
described here, just for the safety of myself, my children, and the
other people on the road. I am also fine with children
screaming/getting out rage in appropriate ways that do not endanger
our health and safety. It's fine to scream outside the car, or to
scream inside the car (sometimes I will get out, 'cuz I just can't
stand it). Fortunately, this is an extremely infrequent occurrence. I
don't know if that's because my kids outgrew tantrums at a reasonably
young age, or because they know we aren't getting anywhere if we have
to sit by the side of the road.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
pam sorooshian
On Sunday, September 14, 2003, at 12:11 PM, Shyrley wrote:
explosive kids know EXACTLY what you mean about being stressed and
embarrassed and afraid of bothering people. And the temptation to just
stay home and then the loneliness and feeling bad for the other
kids.... really!
I wish you could come to our park days - we're accepting of kids with
all kinds of behaviors. I should qualify that - we SO accepting -
amazingly - when we see that the parents are working to help the child
do better and better. (And I don't mean by punishing, either.)
I haven't had good luck with other parents talking to my children under
these circumstances - they've been abusive, imo, a couple of times and
completely misunderstood things my children said, too.
So - I guess what I have to offer is sympathy.
-pam
> With 'rage' II just wanted to say, Shirley, that those of us who have had such
> do leave the park/house or wherever I am cos I am embaressed and
> stressed and afraid of bothering other people.
explosive kids know EXACTLY what you mean about being stressed and
embarrassed and afraid of bothering people. And the temptation to just
stay home and then the loneliness and feeling bad for the other
kids.... really!
I wish you could come to our park days - we're accepting of kids with
all kinds of behaviors. I should qualify that - we SO accepting -
amazingly - when we see that the parents are working to help the child
do better and better. (And I don't mean by punishing, either.)
I haven't had good luck with other parents talking to my children under
these circumstances - they've been abusive, imo, a couple of times and
completely misunderstood things my children said, too.
So - I guess what I have to offer is sympathy.
-pam
pam sorooshian
On Sunday, September 14, 2003, at 07:06 AM, Judie C. Rall wrote:
unreasonably disrupted because parents don't want to bother to, for
example, take their screaming child out of a movie theater or
restaurant.
-pam
> On the other hand, parents WITH such difficult-to-be-around kids have aBecause other people have the right to enjoy their lives without being
> social responsibility, to their friends and to strangers around them,
> too, to not disrupt their lives unreasonably.
>
> ***************************************************
>
> Why?
unreasonably disrupted because parents don't want to bother to, for
example, take their screaming child out of a movie theater or
restaurant.
-pam
liza sabater
On Sunday, September 14, 2003, at 03:11 PM, Shyrley wrote:
My mother used to have a bamboo cane at the ready for whenever she felt
we were out of control. It did not help she was in one of the shittiest
marriages ever to be had and did nothing about for 20 years
---actually, she did and it involved us and the cane.
I hear your pain and I feel like, with anything else, what we are
talking about here is establishing a practice, a daily practice of
where you want to be with not just yourself but the world around you.
There is a lot of your past there that needs to be worked on before you
can effectively cope with your child's rages. Actually, if you think
about it, having kids puts us at a crossroads --we either repeat
history (our pasts with all its pain) or we live as who we want to be
in the now. So your plight is just a glimpse of what we have to deal
with as parents.
There are several practices that have helped me throughout the years
and I keep coming back to four: Yoga, the Tao Te Ching, Landmark
Education's 'Curriculum for Leaving' (which is heavily into cognitive
psychotherapy) and that little ditty that I like even if I have
renounced all religions: Do unto other's what you would want others to
do unto you. This last one, is soooo simple and it's in its simplicity
that one can really appreciate its brilliance.
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It is the uncontrollable rages the childShyrley,
> experiences where neither beatings nor TCS seem to help (not that I've
> tried beatings...). I also find myself helpless against the depression
> that H is beginning to suffer, at the same age I developed it. My own
> depression led to anorexia, self harm and attempted suicide and years
> of
> obnoxius doctors and drug therapy.
My mother used to have a bamboo cane at the ready for whenever she felt
we were out of control. It did not help she was in one of the shittiest
marriages ever to be had and did nothing about for 20 years
---actually, she did and it involved us and the cane.
I hear your pain and I feel like, with anything else, what we are
talking about here is establishing a practice, a daily practice of
where you want to be with not just yourself but the world around you.
There is a lot of your past there that needs to be worked on before you
can effectively cope with your child's rages. Actually, if you think
about it, having kids puts us at a crossroads --we either repeat
history (our pasts with all its pain) or we live as who we want to be
in the now. So your plight is just a glimpse of what we have to deal
with as parents.
There are several practices that have helped me throughout the years
and I keep coming back to four: Yoga, the Tao Te Ching, Landmark
Education's 'Curriculum for Leaving' (which is heavily into cognitive
psychotherapy) and that little ditty that I like even if I have
renounced all religions: Do unto other's what you would want others to
do unto you. This last one, is soooo simple and it's in its simplicity
that one can really appreciate its brilliance.
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
http://liza.typepad.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Judie C. Rall
> My personal problem with the Golden Rule is that it would set me up asNo, it only expects you to know what YOU want. You already know that
> the arbiter of what other people want - and expects me to be a mind
> reader to boot.
you would want to be treated nicely. That's all you need to know,
just treat others the same way.
Judie
Catch my Ebay Auctions!
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/ebaypage.html
Robyn Coburn
<<that little ditty that I like even if I have
renounced all religions: Do unto other's what you would want others to
do unto you. This last one, is soooo simple and it's in its simplicity
that one can really appreciate its brilliance.>>
Recently I received the Newsletter from my old High School, a Church of
England Girl's school. The School Chaplain has an article in each
newsletter and in this issue she dealt with the Golden Rule. Her
research revealed that Jesus in the New Testament is the only religious
or spiritual leader to express it just this way as above. All the other
religious traditions express it thus: Do NOT do unto others what you
would NOT like to be done to you. The Chaplain unsurprisingly preferred
the Christian interpretation. However I am not so sure.
My personal problem with the Golden Rule is that it would set me up as
the arbiter of what other people want - and expects me to be a mind
reader to boot. Suppose that I would want someone to come up and hug me
when I am upset, but the other person desperately prefers to be left in
solitude to think, cry or perhaps pray when they are bothered by
something. My responding to them with what I would want is likely to
create even more misunderstanding. I wish I could have the expectation
that everyone could simply say clearly, "I need thus and such right now
from you", without rancour. However I don't think that is likely even if
it is desirable. Another saying springs to mind. "The Road to Hell is
Paved With Good Intentions". I think it could be better to ask other
people what they need from me. Gee I Hope I remember to implement that
sound notion here at home!
I also prefer the Witch's Rede as mentioned by another Pagan. "An it
Harm None, Do What You Will". It was my mother who actually pointed out
to me that the "None" should also include myself.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
renounced all religions: Do unto other's what you would want others to
do unto you. This last one, is soooo simple and it's in its simplicity
that one can really appreciate its brilliance.>>
Recently I received the Newsletter from my old High School, a Church of
England Girl's school. The School Chaplain has an article in each
newsletter and in this issue she dealt with the Golden Rule. Her
research revealed that Jesus in the New Testament is the only religious
or spiritual leader to express it just this way as above. All the other
religious traditions express it thus: Do NOT do unto others what you
would NOT like to be done to you. The Chaplain unsurprisingly preferred
the Christian interpretation. However I am not so sure.
My personal problem with the Golden Rule is that it would set me up as
the arbiter of what other people want - and expects me to be a mind
reader to boot. Suppose that I would want someone to come up and hug me
when I am upset, but the other person desperately prefers to be left in
solitude to think, cry or perhaps pray when they are bothered by
something. My responding to them with what I would want is likely to
create even more misunderstanding. I wish I could have the expectation
that everyone could simply say clearly, "I need thus and such right now
from you", without rancour. However I don't think that is likely even if
it is desirable. Another saying springs to mind. "The Road to Hell is
Paved With Good Intentions". I think it could be better to ask other
people what they need from me. Gee I Hope I remember to implement that
sound notion here at home!
I also prefer the Witch's Rede as mentioned by another Pagan. "An it
Harm None, Do What You Will". It was my mother who actually pointed out
to me that the "None" should also include myself.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
If your kids haven't already discovered it, Shonen Jump, which claims to be
"The Worlds Most Popular Manga" is available in America now and it's lots of
reading for a little. (325 black and white pages (and a handful of color)
for $5 every month. But if you subscribe it's only $2.50 an issue.) Each
issue has 3 or 4 issues of 7 different titles. Shonen Jump is where many
popular anime got started: Dragonball Z, Yu-Gi-Oh, Rurouni Kenshin, YuYu
Hakusho.
http://www.shonenjump.com/
I suspect what the US is getting is several years behind what the magazine
has in Japan but my guess is that like in Japan, the magazine is a cheap way
for kids to try out a lot of different titles before they invest in the more
expensive book versions that Viz is also releasing.
Joyce
"The Worlds Most Popular Manga" is available in America now and it's lots of
reading for a little. (325 black and white pages (and a handful of color)
for $5 every month. But if you subscribe it's only $2.50 an issue.) Each
issue has 3 or 4 issues of 7 different titles. Shonen Jump is where many
popular anime got started: Dragonball Z, Yu-Gi-Oh, Rurouni Kenshin, YuYu
Hakusho.
http://www.shonenjump.com/
I suspect what the US is getting is several years behind what the magazine
has in Japan but my guess is that like in Japan, the magazine is a cheap way
for kids to try out a lot of different titles before they invest in the more
expensive book versions that Viz is also releasing.
Joyce
Shyrley
pam sorooshian wrote:
Mind you, you might not see an explosion. They are pretty rare.
Unfortunately they have a big impact and then lots of fall out!!
She didn't explode at the conference, she was an angel. Nice if my
'friends' could focus on that 99.9% of her personality and ignore the
other bit.
Shyrley, house hunting in the UK today via the net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>On Sunday, September 14, 2003, at 12:11 PM, Shyrley wrote:Ta muchly. Next time I'm in CA I'll drop by :-)
>
>
>
>>With 'rage' I
>>do leave the park/house or wherever I am cos I am embaressed and
>>stressed and afraid of bothering other people.
>>
>>
>
>I just wanted to say, Shirley, that those of us who have had such
>explosive kids know EXACTLY what you mean about being stressed and
>embarrassed and afraid of bothering people. And the temptation to just
>stay home and then the loneliness and feeling bad for the other
>kids.... really!
>
>I wish you could come to our park days - we're accepting of kids with
>all kinds of behaviors. I should qualify that - we SO accepting -
>amazingly - when we see that the parents are working to help the child
>do better and better. (And I don't mean by punishing, either.)
>
>I haven't had good luck with other parents talking to my children under
>these circumstances - they've been abusive, imo, a couple of times and
>completely misunderstood things my children said, too.
>
>So - I guess what I have to offer is sympathy.
>
>-pam
>
>
>
Mind you, you might not see an explosion. They are pretty rare.
Unfortunately they have a big impact and then lots of fall out!!
She didn't explode at the conference, she was an angel. Nice if my
'friends' could focus on that 99.9% of her personality and ignore the
other bit.
Shyrley, house hunting in the UK today via the net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Blum
there are many manga titles available here now.. and yes we are way behind
Japan when it comes to manga.Even adults read Manga and be careful some�of
it is very voilent and some is very adult.�(sorry I help run an anime
convention) Shonen Jump is�one�that is readily available�Anyway another good
one is Raijin. The really neat thing about Raijin is that you read it
Japanese style.. back to front. That lead to several interesting discussion
in our home.
Dawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Anime and Manga fans
If your kids haven't already discovered it, Shonen Jump, which claims to be
"The Worlds Most Popular Manga" is available in America now and it's lots of
reading for a little. (325 black and white pages (and a handful of color)
for $5 every month. But if you subscribe it's only $2.50 an issue.) Each
issue has 3 or 4 issues of 7 different titles. Shonen Jump is where many
popular anime got started: Dragonball Z, Yu-Gi-Oh, Rurouni Kenshin, YuYu
Hakusho.
HYPERLINK "http://www.shonenjump.com/"http://www.shonenjump.com/
I suspect what the US is getting is several years behind what the magazine
has in Japan but my guess is that like in Japan, the magazine is a cheap way
for kids to try out a lot of different titles before they invest in the more
expensive book versions that Viz is also releasing.
Joyce
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Japan when it comes to manga.Even adults read Manga and be careful some�of
it is very voilent and some is very adult.�(sorry I help run an anime
convention) Shonen Jump is�one�that is readily available�Anyway another good
one is Raijin. The really neat thing about Raijin is that you read it
Japanese style.. back to front. That lead to several interesting discussion
in our home.
Dawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Anime and Manga fans
If your kids haven't already discovered it, Shonen Jump, which claims to be
"The Worlds Most Popular Manga" is available in America now and it's lots of
reading for a little. (325 black and white pages (and a handful of color)
for $5 every month. But if you subscribe it's only $2.50 an issue.) Each
issue has 3 or 4 issues of 7 different titles. Shonen Jump is where many
popular anime got started: Dragonball Z, Yu-Gi-Oh, Rurouni Kenshin, YuYu
Hakusho.
HYPERLINK "http://www.shonenjump.com/"http://www.shonenjump.com/
I suspect what the US is getting is several years behind what the magazine
has in Japan but my guess is that like in Japan, the magazine is a cheap way
for kids to try out a lot of different titles before they invest in the more
expensive book versions that Viz is also releasing.
Joyce
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
HYPERLINK
"http://rd.yahoo.com/M=259395.3614674.4902533.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17050819
72:HM/A=1524963/R=0/SIG=12o885gmo/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/autoredir?
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Heidi
The Golden Rule also doesn't preclude you from asking "Do you need a
hug right now?"
Because "we" tend to care for ourselves, the Golden Rule reminds us
that others are in need of care, as well. It isn't about reading
minds, but about caring about other people.
More active than "Do what you will, and harm none"...it doesn't harm
a hungry person for ME, individually, this person inside my skin, NOT
to give him food. The Golden Rule says "if you were hungry, you would
want food" and puts me in a more active role.
blessings, HeidiC
hug right now?"
Because "we" tend to care for ourselves, the Golden Rule reminds us
that others are in need of care, as well. It isn't about reading
minds, but about caring about other people.
More active than "Do what you will, and harm none"...it doesn't harm
a hungry person for ME, individually, this person inside my skin, NOT
to give him food. The Golden Rule says "if you were hungry, you would
want food" and puts me in a more active role.
blessings, HeidiC
> My personal problem with the Golden Rule is that it would set me upas
> the arbiter of what other people want - and expects me to be a mindhug me
> reader to boot. Suppose that I would want someone to come up and
> when I am upset, but the other person desperately prefers to beleft in
> solitude to think, cry or perhaps pray when they are bothered by
> something. My responding to them with what I would want is likely to
> create even more misunderstanding.
Fetteroll
on 9/15/03 10:21 AM, Dawn Blum at dawnblum@... wrote:
And no need to worry about adult material in Shonen Jump! It's PG at most,
for fighting.
And I meant to mention I found them stocked at Barnes and Noble so very easy
to get. (There also happens to be an issue in the October issue of
Scholastic Book Catalog.)
Joyce
> The really neat thing about Raijin is that you read itShonen Jump is doing that too which is cool.
> Japanese style..
And no need to worry about adult material in Shonen Jump! It's PG at most,
for fighting.
And I meant to mention I found them stocked at Barnes and Noble so very easy
to get. (There also happens to be an issue in the October issue of
Scholastic Book Catalog.)
Joyce
crystal.pina
Thanks, Joyce. My daughter's been asking me for this. I just signed up for the subscription.
Crystal
Crystal
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:55 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Anime and Manga fans
If your kids haven't already discovered it, Shonen Jump, which claims to be
"The Worlds Most Popular Manga" is available in America now and it's lots of
reading for a little. (325 black and white pages (and a handful of color)
for $5 every month. But if you subscribe it's only $2.50 an issue.) Each
issue has 3 or 4 issues of 7 different titles. Shonen Jump is where many
popular anime got started: Dragonball Z, Yu-Gi-Oh, Rurouni Kenshin, YuYu
Hakusho.
http://www.shonenjump.com/
I suspect what the US is getting is several years behind what the magazine
has in Japan but my guess is that like in Japan, the magazine is a cheap way
for kids to try out a lot of different titles before they invest in the more
expensive book versions that Viz is also releasing.
Joyce
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/03 4:39:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
This weekend at the LA Pagan Pride Festival, the twins won a contest. They
ended up having to share the prize with someone else and the other party was
quick to yank the one thing the twins truly wanted. She was snotty and rude and I
was happy they didn't "lose it" as I know they were raging inside. It became
about the actions, not the prize. When they got to me and explained their
disappointment, I began to say "Karma" and before it got all the way out, Kree
told Kass, "Hey sis, everything you put out, you get back. So don't worry, fair
or not, the Universe will handle it." Kass was still hot and really wanted to
confront some issues of the contest itself, but calmed herself down after
"hearing" her sister. They went on with the day and later, when they ran into one
of the adults who ran the contest, Kass brought up her concerns. It of course
did not change the outcome, what was done, was done, she just needed to be
heard and hoped that next year, someone will keep those things in mind.
When she told me later, that she did get an opportunity to share her
concerns, I was happy for her for two reason's. The first because she had the ability
to calm down when she was on the edge of seeing red, the second because she
still stood her ground and recognized that when she was calm, she was able to
express herself much clearer and walked away knowing she was "heard".
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
> I also prefer the Witch's Rede as mentioned by another Pagan. "An itDitto Robyn,
> Harm None, Do What You Will". It was my mother who actually pointed out
> to me that the "None" should also include myself.
>
> Robyn Coburn
>
This weekend at the LA Pagan Pride Festival, the twins won a contest. They
ended up having to share the prize with someone else and the other party was
quick to yank the one thing the twins truly wanted. She was snotty and rude and I
was happy they didn't "lose it" as I know they were raging inside. It became
about the actions, not the prize. When they got to me and explained their
disappointment, I began to say "Karma" and before it got all the way out, Kree
told Kass, "Hey sis, everything you put out, you get back. So don't worry, fair
or not, the Universe will handle it." Kass was still hot and really wanted to
confront some issues of the contest itself, but calmed herself down after
"hearing" her sister. They went on with the day and later, when they ran into one
of the adults who ran the contest, Kass brought up her concerns. It of course
did not change the outcome, what was done, was done, she just needed to be
heard and hoped that next year, someone will keep those things in mind.
When she told me later, that she did get an opportunity to share her
concerns, I was happy for her for two reason's. The first because she had the ability
to calm down when she was on the edge of seeing red, the second because she
still stood her ground and recognized that when she was calm, she was able to
express herself much clearer and walked away knowing she was "heard".
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
Shonen Jump is a cool mag! Tons of stories and pictures, its huge!
We picked one up on our way down to the conference and my dd really liked it. She loves all the anime stuff.
I watched a Rurouni Kenshin movie with her a few months ago. The politics and government history in it was really interesting. We are sad now though, Cartoon Network is hardly showing the series.
Watching these shows have sparked interests in Japan, all Asian countries, martial arts, (she started Tai-Kwon-Do a few months ago) and she also wants to try and learn Japanese now.
I just went to the site that Joyce posted, if you subscribe now, you get a 13th issue free.
Kelli~
We picked one up on our way down to the conference and my dd really liked it. She loves all the anime stuff.
I watched a Rurouni Kenshin movie with her a few months ago. The politics and government history in it was really interesting. We are sad now though, Cartoon Network is hardly showing the series.
Watching these shows have sparked interests in Japan, all Asian countries, martial arts, (she started Tai-Kwon-Do a few months ago) and she also wants to try and learn Japanese now.
I just went to the site that Joyce posted, if you subscribe now, you get a 13th issue free.
Kelli~
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:55 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Anime and Manga fans
If your kids haven't already discovered it, Shonen Jump, which claims to be
"The Worlds Most Popular Manga" is available in America now and it's lots of
reading for a little. (325 black and white pages (and a handful of color)
for $5 every month. But if you subscribe it's only $2.50 an issue.) Each
issue has 3 or 4 issues of 7 different titles. Shonen Jump is where many
popular anime got started: Dragonball Z, Yu-Gi-Oh, Rurouni Kenshin, YuYu
Hakusho.
http://www.shonenjump.com/
I suspect what the US is getting is several years behind what the magazine
has in Japan but my guess is that like in Japan, the magazine is a cheap way
for kids to try out a lot of different titles before they invest in the more
expensive book versions that Viz is also releasing.
Joyce
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
coyote's corner
This is truly a great story! I love the way the girls handled it!
Janis
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: RJHill241@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] More clarifying.
In a message dated 9/15/03 4:39:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
> I also prefer the Witch's Rede as mentioned by another Pagan. "An it
> Harm None, Do What You Will". It was my mother who actually pointed out
> to me that the "None" should also include myself.
>
> Robyn Coburn
>
Ditto Robyn,
This weekend at the LA Pagan Pride Festival, the twins won a contest. They
ended up having to share the prize with someone else and the other party was
quick to yank the one thing the twins truly wanted. She was snotty and rude and I
was happy they didn't "lose it" as I know they were raging inside. It became
about the actions, not the prize. When they got to me and explained their
disappointment, I began to say "Karma" and before it got all the way out, Kree
told Kass, "Hey sis, everything you put out, you get back. So don't worry, fair
or not, the Universe will handle it." Kass was still hot and really wanted to
confront some issues of the contest itself, but calmed herself down after
"hearing" her sister. They went on with the day and later, when they ran into one
of the adults who ran the contest, Kass brought up her concerns. It of course
did not change the outcome, what was done, was done, she just needed to be
heard and hoped that next year, someone will keep those things in mind.
When she told me later, that she did get an opportunity to share her
concerns, I was happy for her for two reason's. The first because she had the ability
to calm down when she was on the edge of seeing red, the second because she
still stood her ground and recognized that when she was calm, she was able to
express herself much clearer and walked away knowing she was "heard".
Rhonda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
Buddhist
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would fine hurtful
Udana-Varqa, 5:18
Zoroastrian
That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another whatever is
not good for its own self.
Dadistan-i Dinik, 94:5
Judaism
What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. That is the entire
Law, all the rest is commentary.
The Talmud, Shabbat, 31a
Hindu
This is the sum of all true righteousness: deal with others as thou
wouldst thyself be dealt by. Do nothing to thy neighbour which thou
wouldst not have him do to thee after.
The Mahabharata
Christian
As ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luke 6:31 (see Matthew 7:12 also)
Islam
No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which
he desires for himself.
Sunnah
Taoism
The good man "ought to pity the malignant tendencies of others; to
rejoice over their excellence; to help them in their straits; to regard
their gains as if they were his own, and their losses in the same way."
The Thai-Shang, 3
Confucianism
Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindness: Do not unto others that you
would not have them do unto you.
Analects, XV, 23
Baha'i
Lay not on any soul a load that you would not wish to be laid upon you,
and desire not for anyone the things you would not desire for yourself.
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would fine hurtful
Udana-Varqa, 5:18
Zoroastrian
That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another whatever is
not good for its own self.
Dadistan-i Dinik, 94:5
Judaism
What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. That is the entire
Law, all the rest is commentary.
The Talmud, Shabbat, 31a
Hindu
This is the sum of all true righteousness: deal with others as thou
wouldst thyself be dealt by. Do nothing to thy neighbour which thou
wouldst not have him do to thee after.
The Mahabharata
Christian
As ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luke 6:31 (see Matthew 7:12 also)
Islam
No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which
he desires for himself.
Sunnah
Taoism
The good man "ought to pity the malignant tendencies of others; to
rejoice over their excellence; to help them in their straits; to regard
their gains as if they were his own, and their losses in the same way."
The Thai-Shang, 3
Confucianism
Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindness: Do not unto others that you
would not have them do unto you.
Analects, XV, 23
Baha'i
Lay not on any soul a load that you would not wish to be laid upon you,
and desire not for anyone the things you would not desire for yourself.
pam sorooshian
On Monday, September 15, 2003, at 07:06 AM, Shyrley wrote:
is going to turn 16 this week - and she is still a rather "smoldering"
kid - but she functions just fine. She goes to classes at the college
and is in theater productions and all kinds of stuff - never has
meltdowns there - they find her to be delightful and especially easy to
work with - follows directions cheerfully, is solution-oriented when
there is a problem, etc.
But - people who knew her when she was younger and had meltdowns in
public, still act like they're scared of her.
She still melts down at home over minor incidents - when she's tired or
stressed from too much activity/people interaction. But - she gets
angry, her face darkents, she glares at people, says usually one or two
quick complaints - (I'm SO TIRED OF THIS - or whatever) and goes off in
her room and usually falls asleep.
-pam
> She didn't explode at the conference, she was an angel. Nice if myYeah - I know what you mean. AND - what's worse - is here we are, mine
> 'friends' could focus on that 99.9% of her personality and ignore the
> other bit.
is going to turn 16 this week - and she is still a rather "smoldering"
kid - but she functions just fine. She goes to classes at the college
and is in theater productions and all kinds of stuff - never has
meltdowns there - they find her to be delightful and especially easy to
work with - follows directions cheerfully, is solution-oriented when
there is a problem, etc.
But - people who knew her when she was younger and had meltdowns in
public, still act like they're scared of her.
She still melts down at home over minor incidents - when she's tired or
stressed from too much activity/people interaction. But - she gets
angry, her face darkents, she glares at people, says usually one or two
quick complaints - (I'm SO TIRED OF THIS - or whatever) and goes off in
her room and usually falls asleep.
-pam
Julie Solich
>> When they got to me and explained their disappointment, I began to say"Karma" and before it got all the way out, Kree told Kass, "Hey sis,
everything you put out, you get back. So don't worry, fair or not, the
Universe will handle it." Kass was still hot and really wanted to confront
some issues of the contest itself, but calmed herself down after "hearing"
her sister. >>
This is great. Jacob (7yrs) my hot tempered one is trying really hard to
control his temper. It helps that we are finally giving him some tools! I
heard him saying to his brother a couple of days ago, "Breathe, just breathe
and walk away." It was so cool.
Reading all these great posts have helped me heaps. We have had a Knights &
Castles activities book from the library and yesterday we read about the
code of chivalry. We decided to make our own code of honour to help keep the
peace. We have included a few ideas from the thread. The boys especially
like the idea of a code word when they need instant help. Our code word is
BACK UP!
Julie
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
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> [email protected]
>
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>
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>
>
TreeGoddess
Bill & Diane wrote:
years I've been breastfeeding I've never "flopped it out" in public.
Breastfeeding is reasonable in every place I can think of. Where isn't
it ok to feed your baby? I'd like to thing I'm a pretty sensitive woman
-- and most sensitive to my *child's* needs. I can't really think of
any place where nursing them would best be avoided. JMO
TreeGoddess
>It's rude to flop it out in public--breastfeeding discretely is prettyI agree with most everything in your post, but not this issue. In the 5
>reasonable most places. Even so, there are times and places that most
>sensitive people could predict it would be best avoided if possible.
>
years I've been breastfeeding I've never "flopped it out" in public.
Breastfeeding is reasonable in every place I can think of. Where isn't
it ok to feed your baby? I'd like to thing I'm a pretty sensitive woman
-- and most sensitive to my *child's* needs. I can't really think of
any place where nursing them would best be avoided. JMO
TreeGoddess
Dawn Blum
hehe I saw it today at diamond shamrock so it is pretty available..
Dawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Anime and Manga fans
on 9/15/03 10:21 AM, Dawn Blum at dawnblum@... wrote:
And no need to worry about adult material in Shonen Jump! It's PG at most,
for fighting.
And I meant to mention I found them stocked at Barnes and Noble so very easy
to get. (There also happens to be an issue in the October issue of
Scholastic Book Catalog.)
Joyce
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Dawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Anime and Manga fans
on 9/15/03 10:21 AM, Dawn Blum at dawnblum@... wrote:
> The really neat thing about Raijin is that you read itShonen Jump is doing that too which is cool.
> Japanese style..
And no need to worry about adult material in Shonen Jump! It's PG at most,
for fighting.
And I meant to mention I found them stocked at Barnes and Noble so very easy
to get. (There also happens to be an issue in the October issue of
Scholastic Book Catalog.)
Joyce
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Bill & Diane
>Why?It's your responsibility to avoid doing irritating things "in-your-face"
>
>I don't have a difficult-to-be-around child, but I see that it's
>about the same as anything we do which is non-mainstream.
>
>There are lots of things our family does that probably would irritate
>someone if they were around us. So is it my "social responsibility"
>to not do anything around anybody else that might irritate them?
>
to people you should know it will annoy.
>If I believe in extended breastfeeding, is it my socialIt's rude to flop it out in public--breastfeeding discretely is pretty
>responsibility to not breastfeed in public or around other people
>because it might bother them? No, my child needs to be fed when they
>are hungry, and I am going to honor that need no matter where I am.
>I don't care if others are bothered.
>
reasonable most places. Even so, there are times and places that most
sensitive people could predict it would be best avoided if possible.
>If I believe in not immunizing my children, does that mean I shouldI wouldn't send them out in t-shirts that advertise their immunity
>keep them away from all other children because some parents may
>believe mine will infect theirs? No, I won't do that. They are
>misinformed, my child is actually more in danger of being infected
>from theirs than they are from mine.
>
status. The point is not that you should live your life for others, just
that discretion is often a good plan.
>If I believe in unschooling, and parents object to my kids talking toWe're not talking about *can* but should. If your kids have consistently
>theirs because it might give their kids ideas about quitting school,
>am I going to tell my kids they can't talk to the other ones if they
>see them in the neighborhood? No, my kids can talk to whoever they
>want to.
>
had a problem bringing up unschooling with certain friends, they might
want to learn to talk about other things instead. It's about tact, not
rubbing people's noses in things.
>Because I don't teach my kids that drinking, cussing, dancing and sexBut it *is* your responsibility to let your kids know that some people
>are wrong, some parents don't like their kids to be around mine,
>because they might get bad "ideas." So, it is socially responsible
>for me to make sure that my kids aren't around anyone that might be
>offended by our beliefs? No, that's not my responsibility.
>
are offended by those things, and that by doing those things around
certain people/groups, they may limit their options.
We may not agree, but I do think it's my responsibility as a mom to
model socially responsible behavior, including removing my child from a
situation where they're screaming or hitting others. I want my kids to
have the option to hang around others, not to be excluded from groups
because they feel they have a "right" to cuss where it's not OK or keep
doing things others find objectionable.
:-) Diane